METALLIC RED: Contrast Hack! (+ Vampire Lord tutorial)

[@ArtisOpus]

Thanks for all of your kind comments, peeps! What Vampire / Soulblight Gravelords models/minis would you like to see us paint next?

[@PixieProxy]

Lauka Vai/Vengorian Lord would be really cool. Maybe Radukar the Beast?

[@Kriegur]

Would be totally badass to see a full Blood Knight!

[@inexistent3rdchimera673]

Blood Knights!

[@jonathanalston1552]

Vengorian lord!

[@gavinduff7286]

Manfred

[@olejoergenmalm16]

I like that "Elric look" and red armour he has on the cover of the new Battletome and in your tutorial.

[@ArtisOpus]

Same buddy, exactly what I was inspired by

[@paulbaker5256]

The "elbow armour" plates are actually called "couters", in case anyone was wondering... Really nice, simple but effective scheme. I'm going for something more advanced for my Crimson Court to push my skills, but your method is perfect if you want to get a character done quickly. Or the new blood knights...Quick doesn't have to mean badly painted. 🙂

[@Draculord666]

Easily one of my favorite tutorials you've done, that armor is so perfect for the mini.

[@ArtisOpus]

Thanks, dude! I was really pleased with this one, for the same reasons :)

[@alexistoulouzan7663]

On the same idea, I've tried to paint some deep red armor. I've used a mix a blood angel red with gunmetal and apply it with 2 coats on white prime. The results was a very dark red armor. Following your recipe, I will try to take back more red by drybrushing with mix of gold and silver following by pure blood angel red ! Thanks for the tips

[@ArtisOpus]

Wow, that's a very interesting method/mix! Could you share a picture? I'd never have thought of anything like that.

[@rankcolour8780]

The citadel clear paints (and presumably clears from other brands like tamiya, etc) work really well over metallics too.

[@ArtisOpus]

They do dude, something I need to experiment with further for sure :)

[@felixarbable]

@@ArtisOpus one of the old fw painters painted a whole ultramarines army in greyscale and then used tamiya clear blue over the tope and its the best looking army ive ever seen. Was on the 30k channel year ago

[@mirbeau111]

Very cool. I find a preshade over the gold prior to the glaze mix, and then some incubi glazed into the recesses as well really pushes the contrast in metallic reds.

[@ArtisOpus]

This makes absolute sense, mate, bet it looks lovely!

[@uneed2calmdown912]

I recently started painting and got one of these models in a grab bag at my local game store. I love it and your paint scheme is by far my favorite I've seen on them so far.

[@Perturabo1981]

I was stunned when I watched this video at its release and I immediately wanted to do this myself. I also wanted to paint a Vampire army in this style but shyed away from the idea when I realised that I was actually the third soulblight player in our path to glory group and that the others had already painted their bloodknights red aswell. I went for a purple themed vampire army instead but kept this colour recipe in the back of my mind. And now I have finally tested it on my newest army project - a Adeptus Sororitas army from the order of the bloody rose. The result for my test mini is absolutely beautiful and I really loved painting this way. So I just wanted to leave a real quick thank you for this awesome video and inspiration =)

[@immrsam]

I used a very similar method for my bezerkers. I heavy dry brushed retributer over black then just went over with flesh tearer red and created a very nice contrast with the black in the recesses.

[@ArtisOpus]

Absolutely man, sounds exactly like what I was imagining for the hyper-efficient version of this :)

[@callumlangstroth4830]

I’ve been looking for a good Soulblight colour scheme for ages. This is perfect. THANK YOU

[@ArtisOpus]

You're most welcome, dude, enjoy! Let us know how it goes :)

[@Paranormal-Stupidity]

This is a great colour scheme. I'd really like to try it on a space marine to see what it looks like. Thanks for sharing!

[@ArtisOpus]

It's such a universal one, I think it'd look great on power armour! My pleasure dude :)

[@tonyja661]

You are the master of the drybrush. outstanding work!!

[@ArtisOpus]

Thank you so much 😀. Some minis just lend you a helping hand!

[@JimCArt]

Looks beautiful, yes to more vampires please. Such a wonderful line of models. They look great!

[@ArtisOpus]

We'll have to see what we can do! :D

[@haxan6663]

An excellent tutorial. I love the way that this model turned out.

[@ArtisOpus]

Cheers dude! 🧛‍♂️

[@brianmanning9793]

Brilliant I’ll Definitely follow these steps cheers man 👍🏻

[@ArtisOpus]

No worries dude, it's been used by a few people and I've seen some amazing results, let us know in another comment how it goes! (Or if you have any questions)

[@gachacaspa]

Love how u paint. U make getting great results look effort less

[@ArtisOpus]

Cheers buddy, following the right steps really helps out, generally I try and reduce my potential for mistakes in anything I do :)

[@gachacaspa]

@@ArtisOpus what is ur usual process to stating a new mini?

[@Timbucktoo32]

man, no one on youtude motivates me like you do. fantastic. this will be how I paint my coming stormcast

[@ArtisOpus]

Thanks dude, it's perfect for their armour! You prepping for the upcoming new ones? :)

[@Timbucktoo32]

@@ArtisOpus I am. I was looking for an effective but quickish method. Love everything you're doing.

[@neiljudge5125]

this gave me an Idea for my black metal using Silver and Black Templar Contrast!!!

[@samuelsanfratello4617]

Love seeing the D Series brush in action! I appreciated the beginning of this video, as well. Careful clipping from the sprue can save tons of headache! The textured mat keeps calling out to me!

[@ArtisOpus]

It definitely does, Samuel! And you probably do need a texture palette in your life ;)

[@samuelsanfratello4617]

@@ArtisOpus Yes Sir, I think you're right! I already have the boxed set of 5 Series S brushes and a couple of the Series M brushes. I love using them on a daily basis. Never thought of using one as a dipper for Medium. I transferred it into a dropper bottle, but hey, I can always modify my approach! Lol...

[@johncorley4152]

Loved you going through your process. Great learning tool.

[@ArtisOpus]

Thanks, John, I was hoping some peeps would find it instructive!

[@KillyBones]

It’s pretty spot on to the book art ... Amazing job legend yewww 🤩

[@ArtisOpus]

Thanks man

[@LordofSeals]

Perfect timing! I just picked up the Vampire Lord and the Crimson Court from Underworlds. I'll definitely make use of this, thanks!

[@ArtisOpus]

Niceee! We may well be dropping some more VC content soon for you :)

[@WolfpriestCjarl]

Your work is so amazing and inspiring, thank you for these videos as it has crafted my works immensely!!!

[@ArtisOpus]

Oh dude, that's an incredible thing to hear, our pleasure! Maybe catch you in the live shortly

[@Vicky1138thx]

Nice metallic red . Can’t wait to try it . 👌

[@ArtisOpus]

Cheers Vicky!

[@HebrewSamurai]

Building up a sisters of Khorne army and may have to use this as my scheme! Thanks for the good tutorial

[@hansmustermann5371]

This sculpt is really good but, it is soooo fiddly small i didn't expect this i ordered it online and thought it was a little bigger model. I wanted to replace the mace with a spear, i instantly dropped that idea. Really nice paint job btw.

[@ArtisOpus]

He is so much smaller than th guy on the zombie dragon, they look ridiculous side by side 😅

[@Kukrapoth]

Amazing result, love it !

[@ArtisOpus]

Glad you like it! Thank you!😊

[@mattportman3038]

Just come across this tutorial, all I can say is this looks amazing, I'm definitely going to be stealing this method (particularly the undercoat) for my Crimson Sons/ 30k Thousand Sons Rubric Marines

[@alanblack7941]

Love the video, I will certainly be giving it a go. If you want a warmer gold colour to start with then undercoat with a burnt sienna before putting on the gold, gives a much warmer glow to the gold than the black - got the tip watching a restorer putting on gold leaf.. :-)

[@ArtisOpus]

Absolutely man, doombull and retributor are perfect companions for this, you can even go crazy and use skrag brown!

[@onkelgroen]

Very cool, love me some vampires! However, I think I might try some of these techniques on some sci-fi helmet visors... Thanks for the inspiration!

[@ArtisOpus]

That's exactly what we were hoping for, man! Good luck :D

[@robertcoble1445]

Can't wait for this :)

[@ArtisOpus]

Hope it lived up to expectations, dude!

[@robertcoble1445]

Love the armour mate thank you

[@ArtisOpus]

Cheers, dude, you're most welcome!

[@Count_Isouard]

I love your channel but I think this might be my favourite video.

[@ArtisOpus]

Nice! Why do you think you liked it so much, Callum? We're always keen for pointers on what people enjoy :)

[@Count_Isouard]

@@ArtisOpus Personal perspective I think but it addressed a few questions I had about doing an en grisaille approach with my Artis Opus D brushes rather than the usual way of doing zenithal with spray or airbrush. I personally often use my Series D in place of an airbrush as I don't own one (live in a London apartment with a toddler so not an option :P ). I then took what I learnt from watching you in this video and the result was really successful, though I wasn't using metallics. I think there is a lot of potential for different styles of shading with contrast over the top.

[@camillokamo8950]

This looks phenomenal!

[@bevanwilson8820]

More of these for sure. Looks so good. I would love to see other metallic colours like this... namely purple. I like purple haha

[@martinkitt2947]

I think the shield needs a bit more contrast but the armour is an incredible Vlad the Impaler kinda look.

[@fjdexx]

Nice work. Thx

[@ArtisOpus]

Our pleasure! More vamps coming in 30mins :D

[@allewis9250]

Something like this on Custodes would look amazing

[@ArtisOpus]

100% dude, I think for a DEEP gold there's something out there, maybe orange and brown in the first step, then yellow? Hmmmm

[@CassyCat4]

Been getting in my own head about paint my Vampire leader from the Warcry starter box, KZbin suggestions seem psychic sometimes!

[@EchoMirage72]

I've already thought about doing a Blood Angels army, but after this I'm definitely going to do it, and I'll get Dante. Him and the Sanguinary Guard are going to be done this way.

[@rickohanlon3370]

Awesome metallic armour effect. Would also love to see something similar with a metallic black (for Chaos Warriors maybe?).

[@ArtisOpus]

Now this is a 'colour' I really hadn't considered... That's definitely got the cogs whirring! Thanks for the suggestion, Rick!

[@rickohanlon3370]

@@ArtisOpusCool! Looking forward to the results 😊

[@thenevergrown5009]

Damn that's so obvious colour that nobody even thought about! Thanx man, i'll be trying this out! :)

[@CRusiewski]

Very helpful as always! I genuinely really enjoy the experimentation parts of the videos - I'm still figuring out how best to introduce the texture palette and more "advanced" drybrushing into the mix, thanks! Would love to see you tackle a skaven or verminlord in the future, I've had one languishing for a while and I'm at a loss at how to paint it up.

[@orestislazanakis4960]

We need to see what a chaos warrior in black armor looks like with this scheme.

[@ArtisOpus]

As in transparent black technique, over metallic? Interesting! LMK in another comment, youtube is bad for ongoing conversation notifications!

[@vladvig3]

Love it, thanks dude!

[@ArtisOpus]

My pleasure, Dan!

[@rodneyr5266]

I was wondering at what point the Huldra Blue was going to come in 😜. Awesome looking, will be trying this out on my Blood Knights and my Kastelai army

[@ArtisOpus]

Yes, Rodney! Sure it'll work out amazingly!

[@allencolwell3140]

Another great video and technique. I want some of your brushes so bad!!!

[@ArtisOpus]

Thanks, Allen! You should check out our store, we ship worldwide :) store.artis-opus.com/

[@allencolwell3140]

@@ArtisOpus Oh I definitely would buy a set if I was able at the moment. Single dad 3 kids, you know the drill. I'm a budget crafter.

[@AdamWhitehead111]

My best results started used a red & gold mix (over black) with silver added for final highlights and then used bloodletter red (the discontinued citadel red glaze) to re-enforce the red. Contrast paint hasn't worked so well for me. The old 90s crimson gore worked really well for metallic reds without needing a glaze.

[@JustCallMeMira]

for a little bit of a deeper red i mixed the citadel Druchii violet shade with my red contrast. I wouldve never thought to do a gold dry brush before hand though!

[@adm5315]

Acabo de descubrir tu canal! Gran trabajo! Saludos desde España!! Nuevo suscriptor!!!

[@ArtisOpus]

Hola! Welcome!

[@moglun1]

Vallejo Black ? Game , Air , model ? .....Grate yob Man !

[@ArtisOpus]

Thanks! Matt black VMC 950 :)

[@lavoltare6307]

Luv it thankyou.

[@ArtisOpus]

[@Bunyip_Studios]

Really liked the outcome with the armour, pretty sure I'll be doing something similar with my Darkstar Molten Metals, thjnking a mix of Copper and Ruby then a Polished Copper highlight. I'm thinking Cardinal Red from the Xpress with a drop of Gloss+ in it to combat the matt finish. Gotta agree Vampires + Metallic Red Armour #chefskiss

[@ashleysandford5096]

Yes please, more bloodsucking, would love to see what you do with Belladamma Volga and her wolves

[@gavinduff7286]

100% would like to see your take on deadwalker zombies

[@Malisteen]

Fantastic.

[@ArtisOpus]

Cheers, dude :)

[@alanmorales5784]

Absolutely “ brilliant “ in every meaning of the word! I noticed you added some scratches on the shield can you share the color used for the scratches. Please paint some of the Bloodknights on horse using the same scheme thank you 🙏

[@ArtisOpus]

I may have one assembled already :D. I used retributor armour + the silver, you could add in some of the contrast for coherency if you like!

[@adamfillier3515]

Heck yes - Vyrkos tutorials please!!

[@ArtisOpus]

That book's really dropped so many minis, let's see what we can do!

[@adamfillier3515]

@@ArtisOpus blood knights would be amazing as well

[@philgee486]

More vampires yes

[@ArtisOpus]

On it!

[@agility8]

Good work and nice video/tutorials! I have a question, why here do you use Lahmian Medium? to thin the red... but in the Blood Knight video you do use the Contrast Medium... whats the difference between them?

[@ArtisOpus]

There's very little, honestly, and also honestly I didn't particularly pay attention to which I used :D Contrast does work better on larger areas though, IMO

[@jurriaandejongh8677]

This is EXACTLY what I needed! I'm going to do a small group of Blood Angels stylized on the upcoming Angels of Death series. This is going to be awesome. Question though, I have contrast medium from Val, is that similar to the medium you use from GW?

[@ArtisOpus]

Yeah dude, you can also use Vallejo's Glaze medium - if you want to promote more transparecy/depth, it's a magic product :)

[@jurriaandejongh8677]

@@ArtisOpus Thanks!

[@RobG95]

Nice video! I was wondering if you could do a tutorial for painting the Tome Keepers, would be greatly appreciated

[@ArtisOpus]

That is a cool colour scheme! Perhaps not specifically them, but we'll come close the moment we cover death guard! We definitely need to do a few lighter power armour schemes to keep the white scars company :)

[@davidlagunafernandez6476]

Good job👍👍

[@ArtisOpus]

Cheers, David! Blood knights up now for some more watching!

[@bloodwrayth]

Love these videos and learn a lot. One question though, why talk about the wet pallette like it's inferior? If anything I'd promote both, I certainly use both for many different things. I just notice that every video I watch usually has something about why on tool is better than the other. As a life long artist I think that thought is wrong, ie sure I could use and inking pen but I could also use a quill nib or a ink brush and they all do very powerful things. Idk food for thought..... dry pallette is awesome but so is the wet pallette, their purposes are very different.

[@ArtisOpus]

Hey buddy, can you give me a timestamp? I have nothing against them, as I often make sure to mention when talking about dry-palette.

[@agustinandreslopezdiaz1515]

Do you think this can be done with a purple?? Which contrast paint would u recommend? Awesome video!

[@gizamaluke2]

Love this technique; do you think it could work on Drukhari Infantry and Vehicles? Also, I'd love to hear your suggestion for recreating Black Heart Kabal scheme with this technique in particular what blend of Contrast paints would make the Sea Green dominant colour.

[@chucklamb3496]

Thanx!

[@ArtisOpus]

Our pleasure, Chuck!

[@salmanhamid9911]

Hey Byron, would the contrast red have a similar effect over the gold/silver drybrush when applied using an airbrush? I find it hard to work with contrast paint using a brush

[@ArtisOpus]

Hey dude, you absolutely can, you need to take care and use transparency mediums (glaze medium from vallejo is a classic), to help you not risk obscurring, the paint behaves a little differently, you may also need to finish with a satin varnish, to keep shine :)

[@camjoseph7732]

great video mate! i have MANY gravelords models and wanted to try this method but my drybrushing left texture everywhere and didn't look anthing like yours. any tips?

[@ArtisOpus]

Hey dude, happy to help, are you using our brushes, and a dampening pad?

[@GasCanZa]

Wow

[@ArtisOpus]

[@BigJackUK]

Thanks for the video! I might have missed it in the video, but how would you varnish the metallic armour to protect the miniature on the table, but retain the sheen?

[@ArtisOpus]

With satin varnish :D or gloss if you want super-shiny! Metal minis are tricky, do you have an airbrush available? There's some hacks that can make a difference

[@BigJackUK]

Not got an airbrush yet unfortunately, should probably look into getting one. I'll try a satin varnish on a test mini and see how it looks, thanks for the tip!

[@agusalonso3159]

Buenísimo 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

[@ArtisOpus]

Thanks dude

[@PixieProxy]

YESS vampires! What did the final mix end up being? Still Volupis, Flesh Tearers, Contrast medium x2?

[@ArtisOpus]

Hey, Pixie :). Yes exactly this - you could introduce sepia tones if you wished to dull/age it and keep depth, or vallejo glaze medium if you wanted to promote transparency further

[@konstantin5526]

Hi! Can you, please, paint Ven Densts once they out? Really looking forward to them

[@riccardonovello]

2:10 Liquitex red ink

[@ArtisOpus]

Absolutely could dude!

[@WithinWicked]

I like the videos, but I kinda wish for more saturated, vibrant colour schemes in the tutorials

[@ArtisOpus]

This is pretty saturated! Do you mean bright?

[@WithinWicked]

@@ArtisOpus may have used a bad word. Bright or vibrant i guess. I'd say it's bronze rather than red 😋

[@riccardodellasette7477]

I love this so much! Just wandering if i cant get my hands on the huldra blue, what could i use instead?

[@ArtisOpus]

Hey man, deepest blue you can find + a very small amount of the darkest blue ink/contrast blue (probably leviadon) you can find

[@bradleycornell7248]

Such an awesome video! I love the kind of pearlescent effect the paint has. Do you think the same principles could be translated to a Salamander Space Marine?

[@Duane-91]

Nice looking armor, how about changing the shield with a off hand dagger/relic?

[@ArtisOpus]

That'd be perfect dude! Love my vamps looking evil AF and daggers fit so nicely with night themes, more assassin-like :)

[@jovanniballardo]

Question sir? If you do not have huldra blue what other blues are compatible from valejo or citadel or kimera or P3? Painting my Dominion stormcast army in this way so I really want to find a substitute blue closest to Huldra blue...

[@ArtisOpus]

You shouldn't struggle to get hold of it, bud? It's pretty amazing! Take your deepest blue, and mix with a tiny bit of your deepest blue ink/contrast, that should get you close-ish :)

[@jovanniballardo]

Thank you so much and thank you for replying..... love your work and please keep up the amazing work

[@KingTUMMAN]

Thanks alot for the Video, really love it. I'm thinking of something like that for my Obsidian Rose Drukhari as well (my first paint miniature ever too) but I want it to be more black or dark with more bright red shade what should I do to improve from this method ? Should I go with Metalic Gold or go with Dark Silver then shade it with Red ? I appreciate and welcome all the advices :)

[@ArtisOpus]

Hey dude, bright red is easy - just do less layers. Black is also easy, just add in some black :D Gold or Silver is fine, do a test square to see which you prefer, then go with that one :)

[@KingTUMMAN]

@@ArtisOpus gonna try it, Thanks alot :)

[@tombrand236]

Amazing! I love using contrast over metallics. I mainly paint marines / custodes / storm cast externals, which brush size would you recommend? Is a dampening pad needed? Thanks

[@TheMiguel42]

I love your painting guides. I'm and advanced beginer so always looking for new things to try and learn. I want to give this one a try on a skull cannon. I only have glaze medium, will this work okay or is contrast medium very different?

[@orestislazanakis4960]

Confused, did you mix Flesh Tearers Red and Blood Angels Red for the red? Or was it just Flesh Tearers Red?

[@sophiejenner8517]

Hey I'm a newbie only been at it for a few weeks could you use this method but with different colours (not the red) I love the look of this btw just wondered if this method is transferable.

[@ArtisOpus]

Hi Sophie, it's absolutely transferable (see recent ultramarine!) - check the blood knights out, both of those videos educate about the experimenting process I used, let us know if you've got any questions in another vid, YT isn't great for ongoing chat notifications :).

[@sophiejenner8517]

@@ArtisOpus amazing thank you so much I believe I've already watched that one but will go take another look. I appreciate it 😊 this community is so lovely

[@wesleytree4562]

Absolutly love this colour scheme I wanna do one but with purple armour, what other contrast paint would you recommend to go with shyish purple for the wash?

[@doktorhammerfaust6152]

can u do a video on how to make metallic yellow?

[@robmccord2583]

I would love to see a vampire Lord on a zombie dragon

[@franekwrobel1449]

Did u consider using interference paints from green stuff world?

[@rybo0072]

Would this work with black templar if I do the under coat with a bright silver?

[@ArtisOpus]

No reason why not at all dude! We've had a couple of comments asking if it can be done with black... there's no reason why not, it'd probably be more forgiving than red, once you got the mix right!

[@Chickenplague1]

Can you use this same method on something larger, like a tank?

[@ArtisOpus]

Absolutely dude, that's where I got the idea, people spray transparent stuff through the airbrush on a large scale often for vehicles :)

[@WiltonMeloBarbosa]

Is there any (good) alternatives to Retributors Armor?

[@xxxeleshnornxxx]

How about some gore effects like Blood on the mace?

[@Malisteen]

What's your formula for the pale ghosty face & hair?

[@Malisteen]

Got to that part of the video. Nice.

[@ArtisOpus]

Cheers dude! It didn't go perfectly for me, but that was due to rushing, rather than the colours, so you should get a lovely result if you replicate it :)

[@Malisteen]

@@ArtisOpus We'll see. I'll be going for a green tint instead of blue, and will leave the fleshy tints out. A completely unnatural/unliving look is the goal for me.

[@owenthomas7014]

Who doesn't like a good buffing?

[@ArtisOpus]

:D Even those dead for 100s of years do, apparently ;)

[@MrStatistx]

I am still staying away from contrast for the sole reason that I feel I need to get better at regular painting. They feel like cheating or shortcuts, which is fine if you want to paint armies or just speed paint in general, but since I am only painting single minis, I feel I need to just paint and get better if that makes sense

[@ArtisOpus]

It does dude! However I wouldn't be too dogmatic with it, they're a tool like any other, so for instance here you could treat the contrast stage as your '2nd basecoat' and then go crazy with techy-blending the huldra blue into the shadows! You could also drop some great big fat blended highlights on the metallics for the bits you wanted to make shine brighter through the contrast mix! It's up to you how techy you want to get, I agree that washes don't generally teach brush control hugely well... however if you *do* control them more you can get some really outstanding results. Thanks for the comment, totally get where you're coming from: squidmar threw away his washes for a reason! :)

[@MrStatistx]

@@ArtisOpus I wouldn't go as far as throw them away, but for example I made it a goal to not use Washes in skin for now, except precise recess washing, if at all. Gonna teach me to blend and shade by painting rather than sobbing it on XD I am not in the "contrast bad, don't touch" camp, but for now I'll do wtihout, til I can achieve those results with glazes and inks

[@Lost4WordsFFS]

gemstone cheatcode

[@ArtisOpus]

Absolutely!

[@rottenmeat5934]

Ha! That's not a he! The other aristocratic lady vampire was titled a Lord as well. The armor's pretty dead on, too. Male form would have a belly. Female form has the belly shifted upward. Still, great work on it.

[@joemamajoastar8708]

All the female vampires also have distinguished breast plates this one does not in my opinion I think the model is more supposed to be gender neutral so you can impose whatever you think it is on it since it's a nameless character

[@westonbarney3737]

Please do the gold paint showdown.....seeing retributor gold come up all the time drives me insane. Much better gold paints out there my friend.

[@MrStatistx]

The golds from scale are great

[@ArtisOpus]

I've used S75s - what do you think make them 'better' dude? I like the coverage, mixability, and fine pigments in retributor

[@MrStatistx]

@@ArtisOpus I mean you gotta try it probably, but they feel pretty good out of the bottle, don't have very big metal flakes and come in different shades sometimes with good highlight colors (I like necro gold with citrin highlight for example). When it comes to silver my top is the vallejo metal color. It also has a gold, but haven't tried that.