The WORST units in SC2

[@themuaddib]

Arty should go through the unit list for each race in SC1 and SC2 and list out which ones would make the cut in a "best of both worlds" "SC3" version.

[@siennas254]

this is hype I'm boosting this comment

[@CoNteMpTone]

@@siennas254lets fucking go

[@gumdrop4157]

Yep

[@gfdgdfgdfgdfggfdgdfgdfgdfg9709]

That should and will result in a sc1 units only list.

[@CoNteMpTone]

@ no absolutely not. In Starcraft 2, the, uhm, you know that one unit. That thing. You know the... Ah.. One that doesnt suck. From the Camping. I think its called the "Reaver"? That one should be in starcraft 3!

[@Codethe_Road]

I love how impatient the Twitch chat is to move onto something else; and I am here enjoying the fuck out of it this. KZbin and Twitch are totally different vibes.

[@xardiodrack1798]

tbh arty has one of the most toxic chat i seen on twitch

[@darkranger116]

twitch chat having to sit with their own thoughts for 14 mins and wildly sh*tting their pants will never not be funny

[@ingodubingo]

But esp for RT I don't really get why, as the target audience shouldn't be much different, right? The StarCraft community is too niche to be separated into two entirely different groups, I think.

[@debostahn]

Twitch chat doesn't know what to do with themselves when TTS is turned off

[@svsv1191]

Its his specfically cultivated twitch chat, idk how it got that way, feels like the edgy sc forum migrated to his chat after it died

[@velmejorka9853]

Those people that made those mods for brood war units being in SC2 could easily do this to test to see how itd actually work out

[@syll0g1sm]

Really surprised queens didn't make your list. They're so bad in such a fundamental, theoretical way. Even in Dune 2, the idea of air in RTS is you have this other dimension that challenges the opponent's composition. The air units are worse, but the opponent has to invest in units that can counter it. They need to scout to make sure they don't overbuild the anti-air. Air-to-ground beats ground-to-ground beats ground-to-air. Crisp scissors/paper/rock. So hey wouldn't it be cool if we just make Zerg's best anti-air unit something they _have_ to build as part of their macro, so they'll always have some investment in units that trade well against air? And let's also make it so Zerg has no way of punishing over-investment in air until you get corrupters and vipers. Queens also mess up the trade-off between greed and defence. As part of your greed, you get this unit that's actually a pretty decent defender. Why? Decisions have to be committal for strategy to matter. A common problem across SC2's unit design is the game wanted a roster of units that did something fresh and new. It's classic sequel sickness. The obvious ideas were obvious because they were good. The sequel wants new, so it ends up with bad. It's really hard to build a coherent balance out of all these support units that do lots of special stuff. If you know your opponent is going to build a whole army of casters and you can't hard-counter it, you know the unit design is broken in a really fundamental way. Same if you know they're going to turtle to air.

[@Hartifuil]

If Zerg had other T1 anti-air, the queen could be weaker. As it is, the queen has become an everything unit because the rest of zerg's tools are so abusable.

[@lordmortarius538]

If Zerg had another T1 anti-air unit there might be an argument, because Protoss have stalkers and Terran have marines, but Zerg has nothing until T2/Lair tech with hydras, except queens. An attack speed reduction or replacing transfuse with something else like one of the BW queen spells like ensnare or parasite might be better for balance.

[@syll0g1sm]

@@Hartifuil Yeah I think the whole design there is whack. They tried too hard to make it different and it ends up just worse than the gameplay you get from having simpler pieces that have clear roles

[@nightmareTomek]

All the units that had no issues came from BW. Templars, Zealots, Hydras, Lurkers, Marines, Tanks, even Hellbat. They might have been overtuned but weren't fundamentally problematic in their design. The new ideas are cool though, but not implemented well. Like warpgate, I would definitely implement it if I were making an RTS. But not make it the default. I always said warpgate should at least be twilight tech, if not higher, and should produce units slower, not faster. Forcefield is incredibly cool, but not if Zerg needs to wait for 2 expansions to finally get a counter to it, that's not cool, that's mean.

[@syll0g1sm]

​@@nightmareTomek Yeah plenty of the new ideas are fine in themselves, but you want to have a couple of these things as supports around meat-and-potatoes melee or ranged units. In BW and WC3 the tier 1 is pretty much just one melee and one ranged unit each. There's a couple of exceptions or complications like huntresses, but not much. The SC2 tier 1 pushes 'interesting' units from the start: marine/marauder/reaper; stalker/zealot/sentry; zergling/queen/roach. The problems continue from there. The good and obvious approach was taken, so they ended up with different and worse.

[@amNotRed]

Worst part about this is the fact that this 'sc3/4' can be made as a mod in sc2 or heck even sc1, it's just that people won't give it much attention cause 'it's not official' despite it probably gonna have more love, care, attention, and actual insights put into making it.

[@Euniceiscool]

I feel like they designed units starting with the question "what does it do" instead of "what is it" which fundamentally limits its role in the games. What the unit does, and thus what it's capable of, has already been decided by the designer.

[@kuilu]

Yeah, that's a really good way of putting it. That's exactly how it feels.

[@empty5013]

this has been how blizzard designs for over a decade and it's why their games have downspiralled

[@MrXaersK]

well said

[@z0nx]

you just described functional programming vs object oriented programming in a nutshell, lol

[@nightmareTomek]

What I also love to say: it's not about what the unit does, but what the player can do with the unit.

[@asyncrosaurus]

I only played SC2 in WoL in Master league, and bounced when HotS was released. At the time, I always thought the Warp Gate design was crazy, and Blizzard seemed immune to logical re-examination. Warp Gate is something that should be locked to Tier 3 at a minimum, and it is still crazy to me that the cooldown wasn't padded (and even more bonkers that it builds faster). Normal Gateways should be regular build speed, and warp ins be more be much slower, but flexible. it should be a tactical decision to use one or the other, or to mix them. One of the worst things about Protoss is balancing the units around the bizarre fixation on the Warp Gate, which just made for miserable games (mostly around the 4Gate). Sentry was bad, but warp gates were way worse.

[@KaiserMattTygore927]

Ive said basically this since hots

[@nightmareTomek]

Omg, I've said this just 2 minutes ago in another comment. Blizzard had really cool ideas but implemented them horribly. Warpgate should at least be twilight tech if not higher, and yes, also not speed up unit production. I've been saying this since HotS beta as well. And for me the time to stop playing came when LotV released. Something similar goes for Sentrys and blink Stalkers. Forcefield is the coolest idea ever, but not if Zergs have to wait till LotV releases to get a counter. I made a mod where I moved the Sentry to robo.

[@Gonzalo_105]

Warp gate is the reason why protoss gateway units are so weak. Also the warp gate and Warp Prism nullify defenders advantage.

[@schmuben8580]

a tier list of design for all units between sc1 and 2 would go crazy

[@KaiserMattTygore927]

Worker killer units should never exist. Artosis is 10000000000% correct. Vultures and reavers and such were designed to do a million other things AND ALSO kill workers incidentally. all the dedicated worker GENOCIDE in SC2 is the biggest turn off for me. Artosis' SC3 pitch had me stunned, I'd genuinely take that. give me Arbiters back! The other guy is 1000% correct on Warpgate, it is THE reason why Protoss sucks so many balls in SC2.

[@AntiDoctor-cx2jd]

Missed widow mines! I think widow mines are probably the actual worst unit. I have never enjoyed seeing a widow mine.

[@aaabatteries9948]

i like widow mines tho. They add an element of rng that is much needed also good players are incredibly good at dragging or baiting mines so it increases the skill ceiling.

[@sambobly]

Nah widow mines are great

[@AntiDoctor-cx2jd]

@@aaabatteries9948 I think it fails as a RNG, because you are pretty much guaranteed to break even when you use them in worker harass, with massive upside potential. There's no fail balancing potential with a widow mind drop. Like zerg can sacrifice eco for early lings and maybe get some damage or not. Terran doesn't really sacrifice anything.

[@AntiDoctor-cx2jd]

@@sambobly for an actual reason? Rainbows are great too, but they might not be good for the game.

[@sambobly]

Widowmines are a fun unit. They are great for spectators, fun to use and fun to counter. Love them

[@Techpriest]

I actually don't like the visuals of SC2, but not because of the graphics themselves, just something about the art direction makes big units feel small while small units feel big.

[@jimmyha1898]

Completely agreed about art direction. I don't know what it is, but BW tier 3 units looked huge compared to tier 1, and it makes sense. Also, there is something about the unit designs themselves. BW BCs and Carriers look like serious heavy duty capital ships. They look tough and menacing. SC2 BCs and Carriers look like children's toys.

[@pretty-white-lamb]

yeah they kinda look like Lego, but the art/detail itself is excellent.

[@HellecticMojo]

it's because they are. Marauders are bigger than hellions and we are talking dude in a suit vs a car. Firebats weren't twice the size of marines in BW, but two marauders look like they can lift a siege tank. Big units like immortals and lurkers also don't have big foot prints. Carrier interceptors are one of the smallest units in the game while in BW, 12 carriers could make the screen virtually unreadable.

[@k1mura92]

Its so cartoonish. Bw feels so much more real and serious

[@Techpriest]

@@HellecticMojo The one major upgrade visually is the Battlecruiser's attack of many lasers instead of one, but they look so tiny now. I agree with Marauders being massive, at least the Firebat and Vulture looked more correct next to one another.

[@derpyhooves7349]

What you guys are describing already exists. It's a SC2 mod called Starbow. It's exactly as Artosis said - SC2 but with many BW units, especially replacing crudely designed SC2 units.

[@JovialJewels]

Artosis used to cast Starbow. Starbow is awesome, so sad it did not catch on. We need a Starbow campaign to get people interested.

[@Justinb2]

SC: Evo Complete Legacy does the same thing, including porting a bunch of Brood War maps. Its still being actively developed as well.

[@mattcat83]

It's far better to time gate OP tactics to the mid or even late game, which an incentive to playing tall instead of expanding wide for timing attacks.

[@nightmareTomek]

I have said the same thing, they should just make SC2.5 with the same engine, just turn the balance upside down. But if they remove all the frustrating things, they have to know how to add the fun ones. Things I've done in my mod: - sentry comes out the robo and can place only one forcefield, it needs 3 seconds to grow to the normal size but doesn't expire as long as the sentry stays in range. Lots of other abilities destroy forciefields, including EMP and reaper grenade - warpgate is twilight tech - stalkers are DT tech and scaled to a 3 supply unit, at their place is the dragoon - liberators are primary anti-air, but their siege mode does little damage at first but speeds up over time - swarm hosts spawn slow broodling like units every 5 seconds, the idea is that they can't just vomit a bunch of units and then run to safety - the mothership is a smaller non-hero unit and has stasis There are a lot of ideas people have posted in the forums that I found cool and have implemented. Obviously not everyone will agree with every change, and the mod was a just for fun thing and never got fully finished, but I think a balance like this would be really fun. However I realized now that there's something far greater that impacts the game, it's how many units fit into a small space. They're so tightly packed they often clip into each other, and the result is that every death ball can fit through every pathway on the map and can close the distance to an enemy all at once. In BW units always only trickled in. The impact of this is huge.

[@Stranzua]

After watching some Stormgate, I think that SC2 has WAY better units. The reaper and the adept are just so much more interesting than the dog and the hexen for example.

[@nightmareTomek]

Stormgate is quite boring overall, but it's an unfinished game... Maybe in 3 years they'll have something?

[@Stranzua]

@@nightmareTomek I haven't watched that much to be honest. I definitely support the community's constructive criticism and collective brainstorming though. It's moving in the right direction.

[@aseq2]

You guys didn't mention the prime reason ppl don't like SC2: the army blobs. It's my biggest turnoff.

[@Appletank8]

imo i think you could fix that somewhat by just making unit collision bigger. every unit in sc2 wants to jam in shoulder to shoulder, and in big armies, turns them into a multi colored blob. Force them to take up more screen space.

[@aseq2]

@@Appletank8 I think it's also the pathing. In sc2 all the marines work together perfectly, every unit gets it's own perfect path which would mean they're telepathic (pun intended). Now sc1 is the opposite, so maybe something in between? But I'd also like to see your suggestion of slightly bigger bounding boxes.

[@Appletank8]

@@aseq2 Yeah there was an attempt to reintroduce the jitter with the mod Starbow. There was like an invisible intermittent collision box that appeared, causing units to panic and do a U-turn, which bounced into other units, and eventually spread units way out on long marches. But that's a bit of a clunky solution, not sure if people today would put up with it. I personally think it's neat, since it passively makes defensive postures stronger: units on hold position don't spread out. The people behind Starbow are making their own game, Immortals, and how they decided to go about is more siege type units, and some units that get a defensive buff if they remain stationary. Also, much larger magic box.

[@KaiserMattTygore927]

Yup

[@nightmareTomek]

@@Appletank8 The small unit collisions have a completely different issue than just looking ugly. Yeah, it's weird to see Marines basically marching with shoulders touching, Roaches and Disruptors flatout clip into each other, and Stalkers should be stumbling over each other when walking. But the issue is that armies get so tightly packed that a whole deathball can fit through every pathway on the map all at once, and close the distance to the enemy all at once. In BW quite the opposite, units always only trickle in. This has huge consequences, from turning it into a numbers game to map design being irrelevant.

[@SkProductions56]

I havnt played SC2 since WOL The Void Ray was completely cracked. I literally just proxy Stargated every single game and hit diamond in the first season. And I am absolutely trash.

[@natecw4164]

Oh man... When you could charge them up on rocks and then come in fully charged... God those were broken but super fun times! 😂

[@SkProductions56]

@@natecw4164 Dude if Zerg had their Queen too far from their Extractor that I was charging up on it was just GG instantly. Protoss who went anything other than a quick Stalkers also dead. Even then a charged Ray could easly crack low numbers of stalkers. PvT I remember being the most annoying because most were going Bio early. The way i remember it I basically only "practiced" PvT for this reason. Because the proxy Stargate basically gave me positive win rate in the other two matchups.

[@empty5013]

it was so frustrating in wol how marines were meant to counter it but if you charge up on a building they basically don't counter it any more

[@Broformist]

People can still hit Diamond just doing dumb cheeses over and over.

[@mothrahlurker788]

Yeah but diamond is absolute trash so it makes sense.

[@kmurphy0620]

9:40 he may have been spit balling these suggestions, but LOL Artosis of all people suggesting a unit that mass recalls to be made available in SC2 because a unit like the warp prism producing is unfair. I fail to see the logic, and hope it's either a joke or an idea that wasn't well thought out.

[@hexaquras9374]

they could just add SC:EVO to the ladder and call it SC3

[@svsv1191]

sv:evo with bw vs bw with new maps would go so hard

[@gfdgdfgdfgdfggfdgdfgdfgdfg9709]

I don't like sc2 design on more levels than just ballance. The unit design in sc2 was always completely off from the beginning. The people who made it didn't understand the races at all. In Broodwar: Zerg units overall were always very flimsy and squishy and cheap with the exception of the ultralisk (of course). Air and ground units were a mix of super fast dying units to medium. That's what the race is supposed to feel like. Protoss was the opposite with all units being very beefy and expensive. Overall the unit beef was between strong to medium. Toss damage felt overall slow but impactful. The scout felt very robust. The squishiest feeling unit of toss was the reaver, which makes sense, because it looks heavilty armored but it's filled with explosives. Another squishy unit would be the high templar, which still is pretty tanky for what it is. And Terran was a mixed mostly medium beefy race. Bio was flimsy and cheap like zerg, but ranged. Mech was medium beefy with strong power and medium pricing. In SC2: SC2 completely crapped on that concept. They made units like the warp prism for toss completely making no sense to the feel of toss. Absolute amateurs at work at blizzard. I hated sc2 so much on release and I never will stop hating that absolute trainwreck. Absolute clowns!!!!

[@roarbertbearatheon8565]

Two words: David Kim, Dustin Browder. Worst designers in RTS history

[@Linklegacy77]

Just a note about the sentry discussion: the limiting factor on gateway unit power was primarily warp gate. Because of the lack of a high ground defender's advantage and warp gate's ability to negate rally time advantages on defense, gateway units have always had to suck. The sentry was overpowered as a band-aid to prevent people from just warp gate all-inning with zealots and stalkers. Imagine if, in brood war, the toss could drop a pylon by the front of your base and all the dragoons and zealots just spawned there from the gateways instead. Sentries at least had to build up energy for a while and weren't super useful if spawned directly on top of the enemy (at least that was the idea).

[@Anubis1993KZ]

Sentry starts with 50 energy, and forcefield costs 50 energy. Essentially P could (and did) just spawn sentries one by one in your main using a warp-prism locking you outside with lilttle to no way of getting in there,

[@Linklegacy77]

@@Anubis1993KZ Oh it was absolutely a problem design, but if the sentry didn't start with a forcefield immediately, base defense as protoss was impossible, because of how weak zealots and stalkers were.

[@Broformist]

I hate the current swarm hosts too and as a zerg main I would be happy if it was just outright removed from the game, even with nothing to compensate for it. Every game vs swarm hosts players is cancer to me, no matter the match up or if I win or lose.

[@tictacterminator]

"These units are terrible to play with in SC2" -Man who hasn't left his main since 1998

[@natecw4164]

Personally I like the Oracle and feel like it's still under utilized. Stasis is absurdly useful and allows for some real creativity.

[@Owlr4ider]

How can you talk about poorly designed SC2 units and not mention the Widow Mine at all...? Also the SC2 version of the Ghost is horribly designed too, as is the Queen and Hydralisk which in turn forced the Queen to be so obnoxious as otherwise Zerg has 0 anti air beyond Corruptors. To be honest though, they don't need to release a Starcraft 3 for this, all that needs to happen is someone to mod it into the game like the SC2 vs SC1 mod as an example.

[@PrimeBrawler]

I like how every protoss unit is overpowered glue trying to keep the poorly designed race together.

[@sc2youtube744]

It's actually kind of true and so what u get is a pretty op race in the low ranks and then a dog shit race at top pro level because protoss core units are crap and and all the imba splash units are useless because pros can easily dodge everything.

[@AimRobot]

Medivac. All splash damage in the game, is added because of that crap flying healer transporter. Banelings was added to counter mmm, then hellion was added to try and help counter that. Colosus was added and they gave it walk up down highground to keep up with mmm drop/lift. Doesnt matter what they add to try and counter it, they end up being so strong they just screw up all other units. Infestor destroying a group of flyers, but was ok to stop mmm. Worker line in SC2 is just screaming in agony from all these things added and all other units suffer from it as well. Now there is mines, disruptor, lurker, viper. Oracle is also just a side effect of it, now that destroying an entire miniral line is normalized, need to give toss something that can fly in and melt it also.

[@AristotelisMelas]

If you look at what Microsoft did with AoM Retold, I wouldn't put it past them to make a Starcraft 2 Reborn as you describe and actually make it good.

[@MrLTiger]

Microsoft doesn't do anything. they just buy companies and collect dividends.

[@firestarter000001]

I tottaly disagre with oracle, and saying desinging units to harass is bad. Thanks to units like reapers and adepts, sc2 early game is dynamic, full of interaction.Also sc2 mutalisks are also pure harrass units, they cant stand up and fight.Besides that oracles also got stasis traps and revelation , so they can actually do alot apart from harrassing.

[@SenkaZver]

Basically what I had a problem with SC2 from beta. The game's units were designed to be hard countered like rock paper scissors with defined roles instead of some flexibility like sc1. And the game promoted that thinking to the players, even inside the game guide. And thus all unit design then on was built with hyper defined roles and countering. Except some end up hard countering too much, some didnt counter enough, and intended counters didn't happen.

[@asyncrosaurus]

I've been saying this for years, one of the worst changes between Broodwar and SC2 was the inversion of damage/armour systemfrom subtraction to additive. Broodwar, everything does full damage except in a few cases where, for example, explosive does less to smallunits, or Concussive damage does less to large units. Vultures do 25% damage to Dragoons, and they're still a stable of TVP. In SC2, Just being Armoured or Light is a huge de-buff, since it just means a bunch of other units did absurdly more damage against those units. An Immortal doesn't just do slightly against an armoured unit, it just absolutely destroys any armoured unit in a fight that you simply can't engage an Armoured unit against it. It's such a hard counter it stops being interesting or fun. Broodwar was way more flexible with how damage was applied, and it let better players just win with skill instead of hard counters. SC2 is just a bunch of Rock Paper Scissor decisions, which made gameplay worse.

[@Appletank8]

​@@asyncrosaurus I'm not sure i agree that sc2's damage system is less flexible, and not just poorly set up. BW is very rigid, if you're X damage type, you do the same ratio of damage as every other X type weapon. Zealots can survive on like 1 hp from a Yamato shot because it's explosive for some reason. SC2, anti armored could go from +40% damage all the way to +150%, which is honestly a bit too much. The lack of medium damage is very dumb though, I agree. Instead of being immune to everything, Ghosts could've taken 50% bonus damage. It would only take a little effort to get a close approximation of BW's damage system using SC2's knobs, but sc2 wanted to do it completely differently.

[@asyncrosaurus]

@@Appletank8 I'm not saying SC2 should have just copied Broodwars system whole cloth, but kept the emphasis on balancing around damage reduction instead of giving units wild damage bonuses. Even just mild bonuses would be better than what we have, and a mix between subtractive and additive (similar to Warcraft 3) might have worked out. better As it stands, SC2 is unsatisfying to play because imo pure Hard Counter units make RTS games worse. I really found playing against Marauders and Immortals extremely not fun when all the cool units were armoured.

[@Appletank8]

​@@asyncrosaurus My point was more, you could use the additive system to get very similar results as BW's. Instead of 20 * 50%, you could do 10+10. Heck, outside the Marauder, Hellion, Adept, Immortal, most units generally have less bonus damage than base damage. Stalker is 13+5. Viking is 20+8. Tank is 15+10. Lurker is 20+10. etc. By the same logic, Dragoons do the exact same damage as Marauders. 10 vs small/light, 20 vs large/armored. This is exactly what the SC:Evo team is doing, tuning SC2's damage system to resemble BW's, they even have multipliers instead of pure addition. IMO the bigger problem is the lack of a middle ground. Non-typed units are arbitrarily super tanky to everything because nothing does bonus damage to them. Hydras are medium, Dragoons still do 15 instead of 10.

[@KaiserMattTygore927]

Said this about damage and armor all the way back in like 2014. Speakin my language

[@00Eregos00]

OMG I agree with everything you said. I got around 133x individual Master League rankings as the profile thing showed them, mostly Team Games, but I enjoyed WOL the most, which not coincidentally had a lot fewer annoying units. I protested after Blizzard shut down the HOTS and WOL ladders in 2017. WOL (Wings of Liberty) Team games were hilariously imbalanced but at the Master league level a new equilibrium was reached actually, they were interesting and engaging. Lategame was more likely though not usually reached as both teams could counter rushes. The forcefield/ramp to kill an ally abuse could be annoying but was just one potential game ending early cheese and there were counters. Voidrays were usually kinda joke b/c by the time the one dude has a lot, we killed all his allies and I gave my Terran ally 3000 minerals over and over. Marines stimmed under the voids and fungal growth and whoops they're all dead. And broodlord/festor wasn't the unstoppable OP in lategame. Mutas were really good. edit; problem with WOL team games was the tiny map sizes and Zerg 10p was the super build because it blind countered almost everything, dominant for early game. Default Zerg strat. But preferable to all the horrible LOTV units.

[@sc2youtube744]

Arty should actually just make a sick mod that has all this stuff.

[@zxomegaxz5548]

The SC 2 Evolution complete mod(SC1VSC2) custom models for the BW units look great. So just making new ones models for the old units would be great way to freshen up the look. The Oracle could probably be fixed by replacing pulsar beam with a powerful Dark Archon inspired ability that requires a dark shrine to research it.

[@multipotentialite]

SC1 units are in the stock map editor.

[@Appletank8]

​@@multipotentialitethat's true, but the sc evo team is also making custom models to update them.

[@zxomegaxz5548]

@@multipotentialite The mod devs have been making new models to replace those. They have been patching them in as they finish them. We recently got new models for the marine, Shuttle, Dark Archon, and Zergling.

[@llamadelreyii3369]

@@Appletank8 Not just that, they changed behaviors to better emulate the BW feel

[@vincentauronward347]

My wrong opinion about StarCraft is that they should patch it, balance it, and then leave it be. BW is so engaging to watch because the game I watch now is the same game I played as a kid. Same units, same abilities, same strengths and weaknesses. I don't watch SC2 anymore because I don't want to have to keep up with new units, redesigns, and meta changes that are due to imbalances that are waiting to be patched out. I say let's release SC3, get it right the first time, and leave it be like BW and let the meta game shift overtime. I don't want to "keep it fresh", just design a game that is good on its own like BW and doesn't need to be gradually Ship-of-Theseused into a new game like SC2.

[@supradoom]

The swarm host design almost ruined my love for the game entirely. I think units that spawn "free units" should be a huge red flag in bad design in general.

[@nightmareTomek]

Maybe not. They implemented every unit in a bad way, maybe there's a good way for Swarm Hosts out there. What I really hate about the unit is that it just spawns units and walks away, it can never really be attacked. That should be changed first. I made a mod for fun, where I changed a lot of things people find problematic. I made the Swarm Host spawn weak little broodlings every 2 seconds that also lasted only like 6s. The idea on one hand was that they can't run away after spawning units, either they stay and spawn, or they run. The second idea was that spamming only one unit type should be very ineffective, which for Swarm Hosts meant that too many of those would not increase the damage dealth, the Broodlings would just block each other and not reach anything meaningful. I wonder how that would have played out.

[@Warmolt48]

​@@nightmareTomekwhats the mod's name? Love to try it out!

[@zyst6]

I love the chatting/discussion type videos! I don’t agree with the takes here about making a SC3, but I think it would be cool if they grabbed the SC1 units, maybe some of the campaign units, and then once per year they took some units out, and cycled others in.

[@Weslicus]

I know you guys only think in 1v1 mode, but you can't sell Starcraft3 with no campaign or co-op missions. The amount of work would be immense. Maybe you could get away with a warcraft3 2.0 type deal but that's it. Also Call of Duty gets a new game every year because it sells blockbuster prices every year. Unfortunatly RTS doesn't do that.

[@marketingcoelho2058]

The most important aspect to fix, the pathing. Everything tends to clump together, causing huge problems to balance the game. Brings us the BW pathing, and a 50% damage to cliffs (that its better than 50% chance).

[@Ravenspawn3]

Widow mine is pretty bad too

[@Killerrabbitjc]

I completely disagree about the oracle and sentry. Force field was only op in early wings of liberty because map design was shit, and people didn’t know how to play against them. Now we also have ravages while Terran have Medivacs. The oracle is not only a harassment unit, its use changes as the game progresses. Early game, pulsar beam is strong, but falls off insanely quickly late-game. Stasis ward is really good mid and early game, but sort of falls off later. Revelation is sort of helpful early, but vital in most late game PvZ comps. The oracle is VERY diverse unit, not just harassment. Artosis just likes brood war, and wants SC2 to become brood war. It’s not brood war.

[@LounoirRecords]

the worst units in any game are those that require way less or no control of the user to be super effective against the defending player

[@Canadoom]

Banshees are also only used for harrassment and they are completely fine. I don't think I have heard anyone complain about the oracle in years

[@TheGlenofKrokot]

He didn't mention banshees because he forgot. Nobody ever used them in years past bronze

[@zxomegaxz5548]

Banshees had a much better defined role before the liberator. It might of seen a bit more play if it was 2 supply instead of 3.

[@TheGlenofKrokot]

@@zxomegaxz5548 What is their defined role? Not being particularly good against anything while also being expensive?

[@Hjortur95]

banshees can kill roaches and small volume of marines

[@Appletank8]

it can cloak, so punishes not having detection.

[@Raptor747]

No mention of the queen? The unit that violates the key Zerg dynamic of using larva to produce units? The do-everything, anti-everything unit that also provides macro and is a T0 unit?

[@hellnickyable]

you know Sc2 dev teak has changed when they didn't put diamondback in MP but cyclone into lotv MP

[@jret65541]

How do you feel about 1 pylon supporting all your production

[@danielgarcia1484]

I love this new format.

[@TheKingoftheriff]

What I hate about the Oracle is that it essentially does the same things as the sentry, as a caster (recon + split army).

[@VeryBadPlayerTV]

Im 100% on Artosis side. ive been begging every youtube channel and discord channel in sc2 about how we need to be more accepting of DRASTIC changes. every game does it dota, league, fortnite, apex, the list goes on and on and on. The only reason this game is hot dogshit is because its been the SAME EXACT GAME FOREVER. if i could get on and have new units, veterancy, fucking literally anything that mades the game feel cool and fresh. I would instantly be thrilled to redownload. But currently its.... ive done it all on all 3 races wtf can i possibly be missing? (aside from conquering the ladder and becoming the next serral.)

[@void2541]

The list goes on and on but they are all Team games, « balanced »by the fact that there are a high pool of OP characters while we only have 3 races to manage. Indeed you are missing being the next Serral, sc2 is a competitive game by nature, what’s the point of 1v1 laddering beside becoming better and better? Should any sport try to copy Football because it’s the most practiced sport of the world? Or should each sport keeps it’s sets of rules that makes them unique even if it can’t please everyone? People have been hoping for years to have new RTS created, and now that it’s the case today and that it isn’t working as they wanted it to, they keep complaining over SC2, lol.

[@Daavlot]

Sentry is awasome!

[@Broockle]

Add the Queen to this list please!

[@andrewskylakos3585]

I would love to see you two keep making videos together! This content is lots of fun

[@davelag7838]

Artosis, could you please analyze how StarCraft Evo (SC1 vs. SC2) is doing, do you think it may grow a lot? Thank you!

[@guyfromdubai]

What if they add ALL of the units to the unit pool, from both sc1 and 2 and the campaigns, give players options to pick certain units with limits on number of unique units at given tiers (similar to Battle Aces)?

[@nickcormier]

It''s actually amazing how BW somehow had such great design all seemingly by chance.. and when a team spent years trying to make SC2, there was so many design ideas that just ruined the game. BW was like incredible luck in near-perfect RTS design that probably cant be replicated again.

[@TremereTT]

I think the sentry is so cool because you have influence over the map ! I would have liked if the husk of an Ultralisk would become a ramp if it lies next to a cliff ! this way Zerg could get their units in even if blocked by forcefields. How Is the counter everything unit "Ghost" a good design?

[@Chal0099]

Swarm Host and Spider Mine made me completely quit SC2. I never played LotV until like 5 years after it came out and quit again. WoL was pretty fun… but once I bought HotS I realized Blizzard is on crack

[@ezpz2680]

Who's the guy sitting there with Jake the snake?

[@crayab]

WoL was peak SC2 fight me

[@petercriscuola]

The sentry was needed in WOL because stalkers and zealots were weak and protoss would have died easy in the early game.

[@razorback9999able]

This is what happens when you cut the tried and true Dragoon from multiplayer.

[@mikael7084]

I dont even play toss but it pissed me off they made zealots so weak compared to BW

[@TheStargov]

And if you removed the sentry and buffed the stalkers and zealots Toss would be too strong with 4 gate pushes because of warpgate. I agree with some RT's takes but some others just make him sound like an old man reminiscing about the good ole days of Broodwar.

[@malekiththeeternityking5433]

​@@mikael7084 Zealots are OP in BW lmao.

[@pierreo33]

Stalkers and zealots were weak BECAUSE of the sentry

[@bobxbaker]

the only thing i would change is unit control, to not be able to group all units you have in one control group, imagine playing sc2 with 12 units max that you can order around at a time.

[@madrooski9982]

Hey Artosis, wanna hear a joke? - - - - - - The stat comparison between Disruptor and ghost. (Down below) Objective stats: New Disruptor 150/150 4 supply 100 health 100 shields 1 armor 36 build time Cannot attack Cannot move when using ability Can only hit ground Speed: 3.15 Purification nova, 100 dmg ability (+100 v shields)- 21.4s cooldown, 1.5 radius, duration 2.1s Does Friendly fire damage ------- Ghost 150/125 3 supply 29 Build time 100 health (biological, psionic) Attack - 10 damage (20 vs light) can attack air Speed: 3.94 Emp: 100 dmg v shields - 1.5 radius, instant hit, no cooldown, requires 75 energy, removes 100 energy, removes cloak, (ground and air) Can cloak Can snipe Can nuke Notable differences between disruptor: ghost -cheaper and less supply -includes anti air attack and huge anti air and anti ground AOE spells -faster -reliability of emp is much higher with instant damage -builds faster -no risk of friendly fire -primary units of PvT do not deal bonus damage to ghost (biological, psionic) -contains many other abilities than the Disruptor making it more versatile. -Protoss units cannot heal any damage taken once shields are removed by emp. -emp will not kill units on its own, making the Disruptor better when units are below 100 hp and caught off guard I’m hoping the balance council realizes that the ghost desperately needs a buff and stimpack to more cohesively integrate with the Terran forces

[@shibomi1]

How about poorly designed mechanics? Mules, chrono boosted Probe production and spawning Drones from larva ejections from queens was the worst thing to happen to Starcraft. They basically had to waste time and money designing boring *ss units to harass workers because of it.

[@firestarter000001]

Why is it bad? I think actually theey are interesting mechanics, that raise the skill ceiling for better players, doing something smart. Instead like in Broodwar, the vaunted skill ceiling being made of the game and engine being dumb, and players fighting with their units to make them walk where they want them to,

[@benbhardy]

Oh yeah the HOTS launch swarm hosts. People who didn't play SC2 at the launch of Heart of the Swarm probably don't realize just how bad the game's state was back then. They somehow made PvZ an even more toxic match up than it already was in Wings of Liberty because of the swarm host. Protoss had to go blind double robo colossus every game because anything else would die to swarm hosts with mass static defence. Air compositions weren't viable and storm wasn't consistent enough damage to deal with the first few waves of locusts. Not only did swarm hosts have a lot of range like they mentioned but also locusts had more health, more range, and did more damage so after Zerg got a handful of swarm hosts they could immediately trade well against the Protoss army. If you didn't have colossi when the first few waves of locusts hit, the game was probably already over since locusts spawned faster than the units with energy could recharge enough energy to cast their spells. To make the match up more fun, back then the phoenix didn't have a range upgrade so Zergs would fake going swarm hosts, switch to mass mutalisks, and win since Protoss had invested in colossus tech. The reverse also happened quite often too where Zerg would build a spire, make a few mutas, then switch to swarm hosts. The only counter to mass muta at this time was double stargate phoenix so Protoss had to build two stargates upon scouting a spire or they they would suffer what was essentially a build order loss. Blizzard eventually added the phoenix range upgrade to solve this issue but for a while the entire match up was rock-paper-scissors from the pro level down to the ladder. Most Protoss just gave up and did blink all-ins every game instead. And that's not even getting into the other broken stuff that was in the HOTS launch. For Protoss, the Mothership Core enabled really nasty blink all-ins and the launch Oracle was broken strong. Terran got hellbats, which at the time were not only really strong but could be loaded 4 into a medivac in hellbat form, which meant a drop was almost guaranteed to do substantial damage so for several months PvT was entirely revolved around Terran either winning or losing with a hellbat drop depending if the Protoss blind countered the drop or not. It was bad enough that Blizzard had to do direct nerfs specifically to hellbat drops just so PvT was somewhat playable. Then there was all of the raven shenanigans because seeker missile was buffed to outrange basically everything so we saw pro Terrans turtling to mass ravens then evaporating entire armies with seeker missiles while point defense drones stopped any counterplay. It's such a bummer because between all of the mistakes they made in HOTS combined with the rising popularity of MOBAs, Blizzard kinda own-goaled themselves into causing irreparable damage to SC2's popularity. HOTS was when most of my friends who played the game quit and only one or two ever came back. It sucked. As many issues as there are with the game now, it's orders of magnitude better than it was back then.

[@monopoliz___2856]

I basically booted up the editor day 1 of wings, do you want blue or purple lasers on your BC ?

[@figwumberton1273]

if starcrafft 3 comes out, they need to zoom out the camera a bit. resolutions and monitors are bigger now. I'm not saying a lot, but it is time to do this.

[@kevindownie382]

I'd love for them to release brood war in the starcraft II engine.

[@summonerds9706]

I wouldnt be mad about it, like to each their own, but i wouldnt play that version over brood war in its original engine.

[@Appletank8]

SC: Evo, Starbow, SC2BW are mods that kinda do that.

[@awkozee]

Maybe not turn SC3 into BW on SC2 engine straight up, but great points and I agree wholeheartedly.

[@Straddllw]

Such an easy make for starcraft 3, you can can do it in starcraft 2 editor easily. Terran: Delete: Cyclone, Thor, Raven, Liberator, Sensor Tower Add: Goliath with high impact/explosis payload, Science Vessel, and make 3x Widow Mine only come from Hellions and only one shot. Zerg: Delete: Swarm Host, Viper Change: Ravager to just do splash, and have Infestors instead of having neural parasite get the old spawn broodling ability. Protoss: Delete: Mothership, Sentry, Disruptor, Colossus, Oracle, Voidray Change: Stalker (buff it), Immortal (more expensive but stronger and later), Phoenix (give it revelations and statis ward) Add: Reaver, Arbiter (mass recall, activate cloak, time warp - no statis ward) Done! The only thing you need is to experiment with the costs and build times a little.

[@13loodySword]

Removing the warp prism and adding the arbiter introduce the same problem for instant army in your base lol

[@KaiserMattTygore927]

It wouldnt though since the arbiter is the highesr tech gated unit in bw and expensive as all get out.

[@flipatomas]

Oracles are NOT pure harassment units anymore. It's other two abilities are widely utilized for non-harassment purposes - using revelation is ESSENTIAL for map-control in the late-game and it's considered one of the strongest late-game spells in the game. Stasis ward is being used more for defense rather than harassment as well.

[@ThunderChickenBucket]

starcraft 3, with the mixture of well designed healthy units, would be fantastic. Make maps multi-leveled and complex, with a technical ceiling as high as brood-war. Easy enough for younguns to pick up, complex enough to please the old nerds... it could work!

[@Gol_D_Rog3r]

It’s probably a pipe dream, but a StarCraft 3 game would probably win goty. Imagine how many people would come back

[@aquilegia9734]

10:06 "Does anybody love having a warp prism fly into your base and then building an army in your base?" I love it about as much as having a Nydus tunnel into my main and seeing half the Zerg army pop out.

[@Appletank8]

At least there's a bigger delay between units coming in? Honestly what I'm more confused by is why zerg doesn't drop a bunch of nydus worms all over the map to be able to teleport across flanks hitting wherever enemies aren't.

[@Seeker265729]

​@@Appletank8check out some recent rogue games where he is doing just that, going double or even triple nydus.

[@JovialJewels]

You didn't mention the widow mine which is high single target damage, high aoe damage, burrows, and hits ground and air?

[@ranzrumJojoJDDom373]

If i could group unlimited units in a group in broodwar, that would be more than great.

[@brandontobias1138]

Give Voidrays some decent upgrades (sort of like banshees) like constant bigger beam and/or movement speed now it becomes viable again without promoting super early game cheese

[@TastidiousYabbie]

the voidray speed buff was pretty good, maybe put it in the fleet beacon

[@firestarter000001]

But why? Void rays are a pretty boring unit, i much prefer them remaining niche. Stalkers with blink are a much more interesting/skill dependent unit

[@TastidiousYabbie]

@firestarter000001 what niche role is voidray filling? Being shit?

[@firestarter000001]

@@TastidiousYabbie Defense against early marauders rushes, defense against early roaches, can help as anti corruptor in late PvZ. Overall if you get early attacked, 1-2 void rays can really help to defend. MaxPax defneds his famous 1 gate exapands in PvP with void rays.

[@YGBK-23]

sc2 feels like it did stuff different from brood war just for the sake of being different, rather than for the sake of being fun.

[@FourOneNineOneFourOne]

StarCraft 3 idea: Remove Protoss from SC2 and brand it as SC3, make people buy DLC that does nothing apart from removing protoss.

[@Justinb2]

You casted a bunch of games with those custom Stormgate maps to see how it improved the game. You could do the same with the SC: Evo Complete Legacy mod, its Brood War in the SC2 engine. Maybe even work with Team Koprulu to make some tweaks if you have ideas like you did for Stormgate.

[@therealviceroy]

The biggest issue with the disruptor to me is what is it's role? Ground to ground heavy splash damage t3 unit. Which is also the exact role of the Colossus. Three disruptors were made to replace the reaver, and so was the Colossus. They instead ruined the Colossus to give protoss another shit unit. Someone explain to me how that idea got off the ground.

[@summonerds9706]

As a brood war player, who played a good bit of 2 earlier on, i am absolutely willing to play other rts, and would be interested in seeing a starcraft 3. However, the idea of “taking the best of brood war and 2 and combining them” holds no interest at all to me. If you list every difference between the two games and ask me to pick my favorite of the options for each list entry, i will pick the brood war option 100% of the time. I dont think 2 did a single thing better. It was, for me, as good or worse in every single category. If we made a game where for each game element we picked the better option between the brood war or 2 iteration, we would just recreate brood war. Thats just my opinion, but if youre trying to get the brood war hardcores to convert you’ll need better ideas than “2 but without its very worst units and with some nostalgia bait”. I dont need reavers in 2 i have them in brood war. I want 3 to take overall design inspiration more from brood war than 2, but to make itself as original as possible. And using the engine and graphics of 2 would be the correct choice from a business standpoint (its cheap to reuse and has mass appeal), but ill be honest thats a strike against it in my book because i like every visual element better in brood war, and i suspect some other brood war players agree.

[@gfdgdfgdfgdfggfdgdfgdfgdfg9709]

I 100% agree with you. I played a ton of broodwar and also a modest amount of SC2 which I despise in every aspect. And not because it's not as good as broodwar, because broodwar can't be topped. Broodwar is just perfect and that is fine. The reasons I prefer broodwar as a spectator and player is that it is 2D. RTS is a very complex format unlike fighting games. Fighting games in 3D have more staying power than 2D fighting games for spectating. Because they have more depth and variation. But less than a good RTS. I say that as a huge third strike and virtua fighter fan. A 3D rts is just annoying to look at as a spectator. I want simple visual information and big variation in strategies and options. Because fights are long unlike in fighting games. An RTS should never be 3D ever! A huge problem I wrote a comment about in this thread but I will note here in short is how the devs of SC2 didn't understand the feel of the races at all and mishandled them completely. Toss must feel expensive and beefy overall, zerg must feel cheap and flimsy overall, terran must feel flimsy but mostly medium and cheap to medium priced overall. And the completely clueless SC2 devs made a unit like the WARP PRISM!!! To show off the completel lack of any understanding of StarCraft!

[@Warmolt48]

From a perspective of a Sc2 player, I'd love to see a reaver and so forth being added, because sc2 is now stale as week old bread. But I bet as a Sc1 Player: nothing beats the OG

[@summonerds9706]

@@Warmolt48 For sure. I would be happy for SC2 to get some significant changes, it sounds like it could use them. But when talking about an SC3, i dont think i want it to take any inspiration from 2 over brood war. Id like to see either brood war inspiration or something totally new, since every change from brood war to 2 i see as inferior. Obviously other people can disagree and that’s fine, but i dont see brood war players moving to anything that feels more like 2 and less like brood war. Brood war players dont need an update to their game, so to make something new that draws them over its going to have to bring something new and cool to the table. And if brood war players werent willing to move to 2, they still wont be willing to move to “2 but with a few brood war units” since they arent the ones missing those units now. They can just use reavers in brood war haha

[@hallo-mt5tx]

you can probably make what they are suggesting without much effort in a mod in sc2 no one wants to see a sequel where the only difference is that the multiplayer has some units shifted around

[@littlespongefond]

not widow mine?

[@phaneros]

Weird that carriers weren't mentioned; as a much more casual multiplayer person (mostly 2v2s, co-op, and campaign mods), carriers have a pretty negative impact on the game as I play it, and doesn't seem to have much impact at the pro-level. Also, as a more casual player, friendly reminder that the "gen-z" / casual people you're thinking of bringing up the playerbase numbers and creating the community, a lot of us actually _don't_ want the high-level balance as you're asking for it, instead we want fun / swingy mechanics, big comeback potential, and most importantly, good co-op/singleplayer content. I've called myself "casual" a few times now, but I have been playing sc2 for the majority of my life, contribute to campaign modding projects, and the main sc2 communities I'm a part of are campaign mod discord servers. All this combined means that I actually really like disruptors, because when I play multiplayer I'm the only one using them and so I'm the one doing the psychological damage lol.

[@WhitePointerGaming]

Mothership Core in HOTS was pretty stupid. Glad they got rid of it.

[@goflux]

SC2 came out ~12 years after the final expansion for SC1 came out. By that logic, since Nova Covert Ops came out in 2016, we should get SC3 in 2028. Surely Blizzard won't fuck us.

[@joeo6378]

Warping in units should be slower than building with gates in queue. Incentivise switching. Make warping a strategic choice instead of the default way to build. Someone smarter than me would have to work out the details. But instant reinforcement is bad. Should be a strategic choice that costs (something)

[@jimmyha1898]

For me, the 3 units with the worst designs from each race are Widow Mines, Ghosts, Liberators, Vipers, Swarm Hosts, Infestors, Tempests, Oracles and Disruptors.

[@dericksnowww]

There is starcraft 3. It's called Starbow. And yes, it was ridiculously fun

[@robertboyle3838]

I would like to see warpgate continue to exist but have production cost more than gateway so you can build units on the otherside of the map but they cost more. So there is a decision to make about how many gateways vs warpgates you build

[@KracenSC]

I've always hated the Swarmhost because the locusts were free and in a game which has economy management as a major factor of the design, giving free units, even if temporary is going to snowball too much

[@weldenbringhurst6517]

Sounds like they just like sc1. Have they tried the mod that lets you also play sc1 factions in sc2 multiplayer?

[@AzureFan1]

Artosis: What if you could ban a unit before your match starts (not mining related)?

[@ixirion]

1. Sentry - ugly + weird abiltes 2. disruptors - ugly, stupid ability 3. Brood lord broodlings... 4. roaches - ads too much hp to zerg army + its not cool 5. Cyclone

[@pretty-white-lamb]

Swarm Host is a cool idea & design, just poorly implemented. It should be overhauled. Maybe it should be a buff unit like the sentry guardian shield that increases dmg & regen, with a mana cost channeling effect. You'd bring a few with your army. But then it should probably be more expensive and shouldn't be invisible when burrowed.

[@coolguyASDQWEFEWFADSFAS]

You should just make a mod, or adjust existing mods like starbow or sc2 evo, to the way you like it, get tasteless, or others etc, and host a monthly tournament. Iterate changes monthly, see what comes out of it. Other people can try to do it but no one has as much pull as tastosis in the sc community.

[@svsv1191]

Artosis is back preaching, preach, i've said the cylone is boring since day 2

[@guyza123]

Sentry and Oracles are great IMO. Sentry forcefield is a big reason to get into SC2, just a fascinating ability with so many uses. Oracles are also really good IMO, nothing wrong with a unit purposely designed to harass. If you think about the player doing the harass, it's not OP because they have to micromanage it while macro'ing their base. Great addition to the game. Swarm hosts I don't mind either, a siege unit is always good to disincentivise turtling. These are three units that give players clear strategies, and a reason to dream up cool ideas. P.S. I sort of agree with NoRegret on the Viper being bad, just because it hurts the Terran staple, the siege tank. Not sure about this one. If I had to pick an ability that I didn't like, it would be Neural Parasite. Too good. Same as Priest conversion in AoE2.

[@napalmbukakke]

As someone who just casually enjoys watching sc, I'm confused why arty had so much to say about Oracle yet banshee didn't get brought up at all. Aren't they functionally almost the same thing?

[@bowiebrewster6266]

You guys know you can make this mod right? Like the unit designs are already in the game. This would be very easy to make.