As BAD as the Swiss say? The SBB High-Speed tilting train with a Bad Reputation

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Today, we're taking a look at SBB, the Swiss Railway Company's Astoro trains. Used on international routes to and from Switzerland, these trains have often received a lot of critique for the rough ride and cramped interior, often leaving a bad impression. But are they truly as bad as the locals say? Let's discover the reality on our journey from München to Zürich!
Train type: SBB Astoro (New Pendolino
Route: München HBF to Zürich HB
Train: EC 198
Distance: 326 km
Journey time: 3h44m
Average speed: 87 km/h
Price: 29,90 euro

[@marvellousmeatball123]

The train itself is fine I guess. But it is often overcrowded for Swiss terms since it is very popular among travellers (with large luggage) AND commuters. This train is scheduled to fit into the "taktfahrplan" which means that it basically "replaces" a normal train which leads to the overcrowding (especially since it is a short unit). The main problem is however that the train, if coming from Germany, is HIGHLY unreliable. Me and most other commuters on this line tend to leave half an hour earlier to avoid this train - just because it is delayed anyways. The ECs coming from Munich are usually the only trains displayed as delayed, at least in my city...

[@BS-eh1zf]

yeah, exactly. These trains are often extremly crowded (especially from / to Milano). I also think that this contributes to the negative image.

[@JuliaSmith1]

I often take another train around the time this train is supposed to stop and it feels like half the time it says there‘s a 30 minute delay (or more).

[@BS-eh1zf]

@@JuliaSmith1 yeah, that's because they're coming in from Italy or Germany 😉

[@LaFu3000]

haven't these ECs been removed from the integrated schedule and now have their own slot which they often miss. Also stops in Winterthur and Zürich Airport are in one direction only (from and to Munich)

[@IStMl]

didn't the SBB plan to cancel lines that come from Germany and split them at the border anyway?

[@eljanrimsa5843]

9:37 "this river" at the border between Austria and Switzerland is the Rhine

[@jaywalkra]

The cramped feeling is a valid, and very real criticism of why they're disliked (punctuality issues coming from German/Italian borders aside). First, the seats are noticeably narrower in both 2nd and 1st class, moreso in 1st class. Second, the tilt functionality neccessitates a more prominent curvature of the train's body, effectively reducing the interior space. If you ride a EuroCity on the SBB Astoro (the train model in this video), then transferred to another EuroCity on the SBB Giruno, the experience feels a lot more roomier and less claustrophobic on the latter train. Additionally, the way Stadler uniquely places doors in the middle of carriages on the Giruno leads to a different vestibule design which doesn't feel like you're walking across a mini tunnel on the Astoro.

[@buzzukfiftythree]

Very much agree with you. The Giruno is far superior.

[@Edelweiss1102]

I think the actual train sets themselves are fine for the most part and do their job. I travel with them between Olten and Bern or Olten and Basel sometimes, and it's a nice experience for the most part. I do think the bad rep has several disconnected reasons: 1. The trains sets were originally ordered by SBB and Trenintalia daughter Cisalpino, who used to manage the international train services between Switzerland and Italy. In the 90es, they had the bright idea of taking the ETR 460, a high speed train which was designed for designated high speed tracks in the Italian plains, stick some Upgrades on it and let it drive through the twisty and extreme tracks of the Swiss Alps as ETR 470, tracks and conditions they were never designed for. As a result, the ETR 470 were notoriously unreliable and often would have hour long delays, if not being canceled entirely. And even worse, it became life-threatening at times, there were multiple instances of ETR 470s catching fire in a tunnel and then being stuck for hours. Now Cisalpino has long been dissolved (2009) and to their credit, the ETR 610s have been way more reliable under the management of SBB and Trenitalia respectively ever since, but some of the stigma of the Cisalpino days will always remain. 2. Due to the trains being able to tilt, they have to be build narrower to keep within the clearance profile. If you don't travel with a lot of baggage and the train is decently, but not fully occupied, you don't really notice. But if the trains get full and there are a lot of tourists or excursionists with big briefcases and backpacks, it can get pretty cramped inside. 3. The trains used to be integrated into the so called "Taktfahrplan" within Switzerland, where they replaced a regular train service. And as mentioned above, if both international travelers and commuters go onto the same train, it can be become pretty crowded. But to my knowledge, there have been efforts to take out international trains out of high frequency national routes and run them separately in the past years. 4. Trains coming from foreign countries, especially Germany and Italy, still tend to be delayed a lot. Foreigners may look at it as complaining on a very high standard, and there is some merit to that, but public transport in Switzerland is freaking expensive and in exchange there are some expectations towards comfort and punctuality, which national trains tend to deliver on for the most part. International trains are a different story.

[@paulthiel5145]

I traveled on the Trenitalia version of this train last year between Basel and Milan in first class and was also pleasantly surprised after reading all the horror stories beforehand. Would definitely travel on it again.

[@valentin7574]

I traveled with the SBB version to Milan and went back with the Trenitalia version. The latter must have been not very well maintained. The ride was rough, most of the toilets didn't work, same for the seat recliners which made the legroom even worse.

[@paulthiel5145]

@@valentin7574 I indeed heard all of those stories but experienced none of those issues myself. Can only judge based on my own experience.

[@qornopiratu]

@@valentin7574The trenitalia ones currently are sometimes in Zurich, I believe to help with the demand for the Gotthard pass as the tunnel is currently undergoing repairs. They always look extrememely run down from the outside compared to the Swiss pendolinos.

[@valentin7574]

@@paulthiel5145 Indeed, my experience doesn't invalidate yours and vice versa. I guess they are overall not always consistent which is still worth pointing out.

[@Chrizz06041980]

The austrian crew of ÖBB stays on the train for just 20 minutes.

[@BenSpe98]

Thats not correct. The train conductor of the öbb usualy drives from Lindau to St Gallen. The rest of the crew stay‘s for the entire journey. Also some conductors from the ÖBB drives to munich. I‘m a train conductor from munich and i often drive this trains from Munich to Lindau and return 😉

[@Chrizz06041980]

​@@BenSpe98Danke für Ihre Information. Ich bin vom Simon Andersen's Aussage ausgegangen.

[@singapuu7643]

The trains as such are OK. However there are multiple issues stemming both from the trains design as well as their serviced lines 1. Because the trains are able to tilt, they don't just feel narrower, but actually have to be narrower to still fit the loading gauge. This is not the trains fault as such, other tilting trains like the ICN have the same issue. On a full train that reduced crosssection becomes very noticable. 2. Demand across international borders is naturally weaker than on national journeys. So operators are left with a choice of running rather empty big trains across the border as is quite often the case in Basel. Coupeling additional units to an international train for national service, often done on the line from Zürich to Chiasso (-Milan). Or to just run a standard unit on both international and national service which then tends to get overcrowded, which is frequently the case here. 3. Because the international trains run longer routes and do so in countries which sometimes struggle to meet Swiss punctuality expectations relying on such trains for your national joirneys can become frustrating, reducing the experience of the physical offering in turn.

[@peterpluim7912]

The main issue my Swiss colleagues have with the train are the delays when arriving from Germany. The comfort is secondary. There is a reason the Swiss Government made more liberal access to the Swiss railways the second of seven important items in the negotiations with the EU. “2. Overland Transport Agreement: in parallel with the controlled opening up of international rail passenger transport, the Federal Council will seek to maintain the cooperation model and Switzerland's prerogative to allocate slots on its own territory. The controlled opening up of international rail transport must not affect the quality of public transport in Switzerland.”

[@olasola1013]

Weird how both of SBB’s currently most hated trains are tilting in some way, yet hated for slightly different reasons.

[@valentin7574]

The Twindexx isn't tilting. They were supposed to use the WAKOs system but they don't because of reliability issues.

[@olasola1013]

@@valentin7574 That’s why I said "in some way", even though it hasn’t been used due to aforementioned issues.

[@keahnig164]

Swiss people don't like airplane-style seating

[@lb2791]

Speak for yourself. I much prefer it and suspect most swiss people do as well, being on the reserved side and prefering not to interact with fellow travellers.

[@jabberwockytdi8901]

Who does?

[@keahnig164]

@@lb2791 1. You don't have to interact with others if you don't want to 2. I don't know any Swiss people who like airplane-style seating

[@keahnig164]

@@jabberwockytdi8901 I really don't know

[@natewp]

​@@jabberwockytdi8901Everyone who does not want to share their feet space with another stranger.. Had an experience where a guy was randomly kicking my friend (maybe by accident) thoughout the journey..

[@nashorn9745]

These trains are actually great for what they are doing. Unlike the Giruno trains that are not great for long distances especially the 7-8 hours from Zurich to Venice. The seat are really good in comparison to other SBB trains. They feel crammed because SBB runs them in the normal timetable making two trains into one.

[@delibakerytravel]

Great Video!! Like Always. Very Interesting. Thanks From San Diego.

[@mdhazeldine]

Excellent video. Coming from the UK, this train looks amazing! Most of our new trains have very hard seats, so these look really comfy in comparison. I also think it's one of the best looking trains on the exterior. Nice spot of the Tyne & Wear Metro trains at the Stadler factory by the way!

[@brunol-p_g8800]

And that’s a 20+ years old train.

[@EpicThe112]

2:31 3 years ago the electrification between Lindau Voarlberg Bahn & München Hbf was actually completed during the COVID-19 Surge in December 2020. Which explains the special livery on the Schweizer Bundesbahn SBB Rabe503 your train to Zurich Central Station Zürich Hb. Before the electrification project trains on the Zürich Hb Bregenz Lindau München Hbf used an electric locomotive Re421 Zürich Hb Lustenau Bregenz🇦🇹 Lindau🇩🇪 final section which wasn't electrified before 2020 which was Lindau München Hbf used DB Baureihe 218/245.

[@Simon-Andersen]

Ah i knew the service was quite new, but did not realize it was actually possible because of a new electrified section

[@sajiwaji]

I take this train for commuting between St. Gallen and Winterthur from time to time, and in my opinion and from what I've heard from others, it doesn't have a bad reputation for rough rides or cramped interior build (I definitely prefer riding this train build to the Twindexx Expresses running on my route) but from the extreme and sometimes unpredictable overcrowding it can have on peak riding times and its notorious delays coming out of Munich, with delays of 30-50 minutes not uncommon and very often being the only heavily delayed train in the entire schedule of a station, possibly not even finishing its ride to Zürich, instead opting to end in Winterthur to start the ride back on time. I was honestly pretty surprised to see you be on time for the entire ride!

[@Noel201199]

I am from Switzerland and have used the Astoros/RABe503 several times to travel to Munich and back. I really like the trainsets. They are comfortable enough for the time you spend inside and while there might be less legroom than in other trainsets, its still much better than in buses or planes. So I can't complain about the trains. The main issue is with the line, not the train. The Munich-Zürich line is notorious for being late. Since this train is supposed to be integrated in the Swiss clock-face schedule ("Taktfahrplan") you often end up missing your connection in Zürich which is not something we Swiss are used to and is very frustrating.

[@ringo7561]

Great video as always. I like traveling on Swiss and German trains with a Eurail pass since no reservation needed.

[@Simon-Andersen]

Same here! One of the countries where the pass is still a great deal!

[@aviano72]

I like the Astoro. I only have been travelling on it once when it was used between Zürich and Milano ICN to me is the best, super comfy and it tilts 👍

[@SebastianKrockel-gj7zd]

Great video - as always, thank you 😊 And yes, lockers in German train stations that only work with coins are a mess. Thanks for pointing that out 😅

[@mewosh_]

Here in Poland this Alstom pendolino train is considered the most luxurious experience you can get here

[@Simon-Andersen]

Its a good train! I liked my trip on the PKP ones too!

[@martinbitter4162]

Took a Trenitalia version of it from Milan to Geneva. It was comfortable but worn. Everything rattled and acceleration was anything but smooth.

[@buzzukfiftythree]

Enjoyable video, thanks. We travelled in 1st Class from Milan to Basel some years ago on this type of train and I have to say I’m not a fan of them. They do feel rather cramped compared to the older style EC carriages and I think that is because the sides are angled inwards to compensate for the fact that the carriage tilts inwards on track curves. We’ve also used the SBB Giruno units more recently and find them far superior to the tilting trains.

[@Simon-Andersen]

The Giruno trains are great! I went onto one right after getting off this train

[@aichhoernchen]

BTW: "Lake Bodensee" = "Lake Constance" in English

[@Simon-Andersen]

Ah cool! Did not know that, shows up with the german name for me on danish google maps

[@yagi3925]

@@Simon-AndersenDet hedder Bodensøen på dansk.

[@justinb1389]

Some suggestions for improvement: 1.Bayern = bavaria 2.Lake Bodensee = Lake constance

[@thomasfehlmann4680]

I prefer these trains, called "Astorio" by SBB, against the newer "Giruno" from Stadler, which provide the amenities of an S-Bahn consists even for long, international routes. While it is true that on certain routes, including Bern-Domodossola and Munich-Zurich, the demand exceeds their capacity, and because of the shaky renovation done by Deutsche Bahn it cannot be run in double-traction, passengers without a reservation, or arriving late for their originally booked train will find it difficult to find a seating. The Dining Car usually offers quite good, but somewhat expensive, menues. Be warned that finding a seat there might be difficult. In 1st class, you can eat and dring at the table, if the train is normally staffed, but you cannot rely on it.

[@leonardheiden]

I've ridden these trains quite a lot of times between Venice and Milan (Venezia-Genève). They are not bad per se, but when full (as they are most of the time on that route) they do feel very cramped in second class due to their reduced loading gauge compared to non-tilting trains.

[@imwsss726]

I’ve tried the same route with RABe503 before, and I think the experience was decent despite the delay in German section because of the signal failure. The Chinese CRH5 is also a Pendolino but without tilting function, it has one of the best performance in extreme weather condition in the CR mainline high speed fleet , better than the CRH1 and 2 which are similarly aged, but it also offers some worst ride quality and most crowded seats, so the passenger feedback isn’t great.

[@jabberwockytdi8901]

If everyone in Switzerland who is complaining took a ride on the smaller loading gauge UK version which has even smaller windows and the effect of the " Tilt" loading gauge is even more claustrophobic they would realize the european Pendolinios are not that bad ! (Plus we got our own " Italian delays" in UK too since Trenitalia were awarded the franchise for the route these trains run on...)

[@oDrashiao]

The main issue for me with these bucket style seats is that if you are a bit tall and wide, they are extremely uncomfortable

[@rachelehrenberg9231]

Unless the train is absolutely packed like a tin of Herring, it is fine. Although I am a short Swiss lady! Also a very small correction. It is either Lake Constance (standard English name) or Bodensee. Much thanks for your work from the town it skipped, St. Gallen! Home of the Stadlerwerks.

[@Simon-Andersen]

Thanks for watching!

[@rachelehrenberg9231]

@@Simon-Andersen Always my young friend. Hope to meet someday in my neck of the woods.

[@uncipaws7643]

The last time I travelled through München I didn't get off the train. Generally changing trains there is a pain because the ways are so long with no connecting tunnel between the tracks. If you are in a hurry try to be at the head end of an arriving train. If you aren't in a hurry and don't have a reservation walk all the way to the end of the platform (or the section with your booked class) for a better chance of a free seat.

[@gentuxable]

I went from Lausanne to Milan in 2009 back when these trains were brand new and had a Cisalpino livery. Apart from most screens not working as intended and the announcer not stopping to advertise the dining car it wasn't bad. When I returned most of the toilets were not working however.

[@monikaunterwegs7960]

I'm just surprised how little legroom there is in 1st class. In general, the train is really ok, but it has two major disadvantages: the schedule in Switzerland is so tight, the slightest delay from Gerrmany delays the train by 25 or 30 minutes. On major travel days the demand is much higher than the capacity, which means: Without a seat reservation you may not be able to take your booked train. Other then trains to Italy, this train can get overbooked.

[@quirllin]

For Swiss standards it's one of the most crowded and most uncomfortable trains. If you are by yourself without much luggage in first class, it's all fine. If you have have luggage (what can be expected for an EC route), in 2nd class. it is always so overcrowded and the seats to tight. Legroom is normally bigger in Swiss trains. This train has more like DB legroom

[@fulknerra6116]

was on the same sort of train Geneva-Zurich a month ago, 1st class. My impression : reassuringly solid, clean design and very comfortable. But then compared to GWR in the UK .......

[@Brauiz90]

I've been on this train from Munich to Lindau-Reutin and it was a crowded train. I sure was having problems with the limited legroom (I'm 1.9m tall) so I asked a woman if it's possible to change seats - she was a nice passenger and we switched seats so I could sit in a table-seat with more legroom. Otherwise the trip was pleasant.

[@eliteiel9747]

I'd say hated is a strong word... I think the biggest problem is that theyre usually quite busy because they serve the stretch zurich - oerlikon - zurich flughafen. But I think most people won't really avoid them, unless the reason is that theyre delayed because of Germany. As for te twindex, that one really isnt hated, especially by the swiss population. It's just among enthusiasts where they know about the failed tilting system and the nausea it used to cause because of it, but your avarage swiss person will gladly take the twindex.

[@justpf]

Well just yesterday some 200++ "average swiss persons" were quite cursing their lungs when a bloody twindex got stuck for more than 1.5 hours between Bern and Lausanne due to "technical failure". Many were missing their flights from Geneva... First they tried to reboot the train then it started rolling but not above 10 km/h and after some more wasted time they gave up and drove it back to Freiburg. To my knowledge this isn't such an exceptional situation with this junk on wheels, besides stinky or closed toilets, shattering, lack of bike spaces, etc. Honestly the worst thing SBB wasted money on.

[@felkru20]

​@@justpfWhile it has been very unreliable for some years, the Twindexx is among the most reliable trains among SBB's fleet nowadays. I also think the Girunos and Astoros are the much better trains, but a technical failure like this could have happened on every other train than the Twindexx.

[@AlexanderOnFire]

I think the bad reputation comes a little bit from the old Pendolino trains, which actually are really bad.

[@adrianfohrer2466]

I used sometimes this train from Zürich-St. Gallen. It's not so bad. But i can't used this train from St.Gallen to Zürich. Cause about 90% of the trains arrived 30min to late at St.Gallen. That's not the problem from the train, it's the fault from DB...

[@felkru20]

I travel the German ICE 4 regularly and took the Astoro for the first time last weekend. In my opinion, the Astoro is the better train in almost every way, especially the seats are way more comfortable. The only little things I don't really like is that there could be more toilets and the air quality deteriorates quite fast when the train is too crowded.

[@marcmonnerat4850]

The latest incarnations of the *Pendolino* aren't so bad, apart from being overcrowded and cramped (like the _TGV_ , _Frecce_ , etc. by the way). I was really sick on the first *Pendolino* between Brig and Milano Centrale. Not nostalgic for the older passenger cars either.

[@Vbztram]

I live in switzerland and I love These trains

[@justpf]

This one isn't too bad, it's just usually overcrowded and somewhat unreliable. The real horror are those FX Dosto Bombardier crappy ones. I sincerely don't understand how no one from SBB got sued for deploying them.

[@fabb4i2]

Oh, this the one to / from Munich. Yeah, that's not the one we're hating on that much. Here it's just that it's always crowded af and hardly ever arrives on time. The train getting cancelled at some point is very common too.

[@ninnobroggi]

That's because of germany's railways. Not because of this specific train.

[@gerardmeyer2118]

I, for one, love it when the car tilts in the curbs. It feels a little like an airplane. 😊

[@Simon-Andersen]

I've never thought of it in that way before but you are totally right!

[@michaelhall8586]

I would kill to have trains as “bad” as these!

[@freja3187]

looks alot better then the journey between copenhagen and esbjerg with an ir4 train.

[@drdewott9154]

The train looks ok, but as others have pointed out, the fact that it replaces a domestic service with larger trains when fitting into the Swiss schedules is a big problem and leads to overcrowding. It really should be treated separately all together to avoid these kinds of conflicts, both for crowd management and service reliability. I will say though the speed on this route could definitely be improved a lot, an average speed of just 87km/h leaves a lot to be desired for such a major international route.

[@gentuxable]

Because there are single track segments this would be impossible to do because of the time it takes for one train to free the segment. All other trains in both directions have to wait. So you can't just add it "another time", otherwise some train has to wait and get delayed or you'd have to leave the track be used inefficiently to be able to have impromptu EC pass there. Both are not things SBB would do.

[@Elibuwu]

It doesn't actually replace another train in the domestic schedule anymore. Since a year ago, it takes up the :33-slots from Zurich eastwards every two hours, and these are only used during rush hours.

[@WaechterDerNacht]

As a tall guy, i don't like this train. The headrest is higher, but i end up with that pillow thing in my neck. Then those "ears" of the seat are often too tight. Probably due to my size, i like to slide down the seat more and rest my head on the window frame. But there just seems to be no comfortable position to rest the head for tall people like me on this train. And finally i always aim for a 4-seat layout, because that garbage bin blocking the knee constantly is annoying as f....

[@Charlizzie]

"Uncomfortable and crammed"? It's like people who do not understand Nemo's music until he performed that Eurovision entry in Madrid. P.S. There is an English name for Munchen. It's called Munich.

[@Rvk97358]

The cramped feeling in 2nd class will kick in if you have 2 people sitting next to eachother. If you have 2 large men sitting next to eachother, it’s becoming quite uncomfortable, which is the opposite of the “premium” product this train type aims to offer.

[@dave337100]

Am I the only one that thinks that the seating position in these trains is really bad?

[@Yitao_Su]

It is one of the CRH series of high-speed rolling stock vehicles ordered by the Ministry of Railways of the People's Republic of China from Alstom of France and Changchun Railway Coach Company Limited of China North Railway Group for the purpose of implementing the sixth major speed increase of the Chinese railway. The Ministry of Railways of the People's Republic of China named all high-speed vehicles of China Railway introduced with foreign technology and jointly designed and produced as Harmony.

[@jurivladimirowich2646]

Hey, this one is NOT the old infamios Cisalpino Pendolino. Maybe you could change the title?

[@samtrak1204]

Second class looks crowded and cramped but coach partitions would break up the long tunnel effect.Thanks for sharing.

[@mewosh_]

There's something slightly uncanny about seeing a train model operated in your country but in a different operators livery.

[@Yitao_Su]

We have the CRH (China Railway High Speed) 5 EMU in China, whose the prototype is this.

[@fabb4i2]

Oh, it arrived on time? That's very uncommon for this connection just saying.

[@ninnobroggi]

That's because of germany's railways. Not because of this specific train.

[@felixtheswiss]

The new Pendolino ETR610 is better than the Old Pendolino ETR470

[@hwgusn]

Just another example of how spoiled the Swiss are for public transit that they would complain about this train.

[@justpf]

We are not spoiled, just privileged and rich and we do expect the matching service for the tickets prices we pay ;)

[@JeanPaulMueller]

No seat reservation necessary.....can sit anywhere.....picks the worst seat possible

[@Simon-Andersen]

I like the seats at the end :D

[@felixfuhrer6750]

I hate this train. It operates every day when i go in the direction of basel. It is the most uncomfortable train in switzerland.

[@benedictdesilva6677]

The *Lake of Constance* is never called *Lake Bodensee* when speaking English.

[@Simon-Andersen]

I can call it whatever i want because its my video.

[@benedictdesilva6677]

@@Simon-Andersen Of course you can.

[@LeZylox]

I really don't like that you travel 1. class.

[@Simon-Andersen]

Happens in plenty of places in Europe as well

[@RobimRobbe]

WHY WOULD YOU TRAVEL BACKWARDS?!?!

[@Simon-Andersen]

I have no issues riding backwards :-)

[@five-o5362]

87kph average on Pendolino, taxpayer's money well spent. You could call it Pretendolino

[@rj7255]

I like this train but he's not really reliable.

[@HerrGru]

Train had been on time 😂 strange 😂

[@ninnobroggi]

I personally like this train, sure the Giruno is better, but not on curvy lines. In my opinion it was executed better than the ICN and obviously the Twindexx.

[@user-fn8ep5qk9i]

This train makes you seasick because of its movements and its nauseating smells

[@Tobiterrier]

It really hurts to watch this. If you do the video in English, then please use the English names like "Munich" instead of "München", "Bavaria" instead of "Bayern", "Lake Constance" instead of "Lake Bodensee" and so on... OMG