Ash should NOT have lost in Kalos

[@shadowsoflugia3941]

Alan? xD

[@rivalryyyy]

I could not remember how to pronounce his name.......

[@eljordinio7647]

It's ALAIN!!

[@ekuLy_42]

Ash should of won in Kalos and Alola should have been a victory lap.

[@rivalryyyy]

Yeah I think the same personally - It would of made a lot of sense for it.

[@trifurobert1349]

Yeah and the League in Alola just felt off

[@theposer]

His Kalos team was literally the 2016 Warriors I wake up in the middle of the night just thinking over the finals, and this makes them even worse

[@rivalryyyy]

I like that analogy. The 2016 Warriors. They derailed themselves from going for the regular season record imo - maybe Ash did the same for Kalos👀

[@MarioBeart]

9:10 is spot on. The original sin was Sinnoh because ok at the time there was this idea that Ash needed to lose in order to have motivation to go on to other regions. It made sense narratively, but the way they addressed it with Tobias was forshadowing at how bad they were handling the script. Kalos was just The Moment. There was no excuse anymore and they fucked it up big time. It was The Error of the anime. It didn't even make any sense because of all the relationship with Serena and stuff. And like you said by the time of Alola nobody cared, especially by how that League was set up to be. At that point they realized to write the character off in Journeys.

[@rivalryyyy]

It did reach the stage where I felt like they were never going to have him win? And so it when it did it felt like a bit less special. I enjoyed Sinnoh the most but understood the decision - but Kalos was the time for me.

[@MarioBeart]

@@rivalryyyy Exactly. I remember everyone around 2017 had the same idea - he was never gonna win it and that was it. A win in Kalos wouldn't have compromised Alola anyway, since it's a summery season with holiday vibes.

[@otaviopalanca]

Leaving the more determined, serious and mature Ash to become a baby again in the childish Alola season was nauseating.

[@rivalryyyy]

I think that was a big problem alot of people have. It pretty much screamed of look we are extending this anime - left me and alot of people probably thinking is he ever going to get the big victory?

[@otaviopalanca]

@@rivalryyyy the victory in the unofficial Alola league was so unearned and undeserving. Only Kalos and Sinnoh he was really at his peak and meant to.

[@lachydragneel]

​@@rivalryyyyI loved xy favourite generation but I just couldn't watch the alola season onwards just hate what they did.

[@eljordinio7647]

@@otaviopalanca and downright stupid Alola may have given Ash the win he needed to have but it robbed him of all his maturity in the process

[@eljordinio7647]

@@otaviopalanca U want unofficial? Go to the orange league. It's not even a real competition as u only fight one person

[@CoachCraigWest]

Ash should've beaten Alain, but lose to Diantha, for the Kalos Champion status. That way it shows although he won a regional league, but, there's still more to learn!

[@rivalryyyy]

That's actually a very good idea. Gives him the win but still says he has more to learn!

[@eljordinio7647]

@@CoachCraigWest I would have been fine with it

[@eljordinio7647]

Idk what was going through the writers' heads when they pulled that stunt. Yeah ash won in Alola, yeah he beat Leon, but there should have been absolutely no excuse for the Kalos League loss ash took there. Sure it wasn't as bad in terms of execution like Tobias and Cameron were and ash did at least go down to a skilled trainer whose journey we had been following alongside Ash, but for this league, it's the outcome itself that is the problem. Ash would have still continued his travels if he won the Kalos league and then his other two major wins after that. That BS excuse from the writers was always false and they just did it to keep ash around and aggravate the fans Making ash lose despite all the hype this battle got was just downright Unacceptable and the writers and staff deserved every bit of backlash and hate for that stunt. Add the fact that ash (and Greninja) never beat Alain before and didn't even get to settle the score in journeys, and this loss is even worse now than it was

[@rivalryyyy]

I honestly think they panicked a little - there was definitely a realisation that by making him win that would probably be it. And they had not prepared for the next stage (also KZbin didn't notify of this comment till just recently. Little weird)

[@eljordinio7647]

@@rivalryyyy panicking is zero excuse to rob ash of a win when he came that close and got so much hype Those writers should have faced the consequences for their stunt

[@rivalryyyy]

@@eljordinio7647 Oh its no excuse! I think they just didn't plan ahead then panicked because they had nothing to go to next.

[@darkdragon7210]

Not to mention the Title of the Episode being Kalos League Victory : Ash's Ultimate Battle adds a Bunch of Salt & Lemon Juice to the Wound!!! Made even Worse by Ash Winning the Alola League, which he really didn't Deserve to Win just by the fact it was set up the way it was and all the stuff that happened (Ash vs Hau) for example, all felt like a back handed apology!!! Cause if Ash Lost again it most likely would've Killed the anime for good!

[@eljordinio7647]

@@darkdragon7210 if ash did lose again in Alola, the staff would have HAD to face further consequences for their idiocy. People say that harassing the writers is wrong, well they brought the harassment on themselves And idk if Alola was necessarily undeserved. Yeah Ash vs Hau was stupid but aside from that the win was basically guaranteed. Who else would have been the one to face kukui in the exhibition match?

[@saiyan4414]

my issue with the Kallos league is not necessarily that he lost, just more that if they were going to make him lose they should have had him win a previous match or come to a draw with Allom at some point, then the loss would have made a bit more sense. with Alola I don't think he should have one that one, because it was new and there weren't really any rules to enter.

[@eljordinio7647]

@@saiyan4414 it works the same way it does in the games. There's no champion before u waltz in and it's something that they put together when you start your island challenge

[@247_______]

Charizard still should’ve won that Blaziken fight There was no reason for ash to lose that fight, it’s just a fuckin stupid advertisement for Pokémon Ruby and Sapphire! They really fucked over charizard on that episode.

[@rivalryyyy]

They very much liked to use the anime to advertise the games back then. So Blaziken coming in and being super strong would of grabbed people's attention for the next game. Good marketing technique, but frustrating in hindsight.

[@KuroBlitz]

I wanted for Ash to win in Kalos since I knew that Alola had no Gyms or League. But since Pikachu lost, I feel like Greninja should've tied or the match be inconclusive. Or better yet, make Alain's match post-League, like how you face AZ after Diantha. He could've gone to Alola to help build the League and be a battling instructor. Imagine instead of classmates, those characters being soon-to-be Trial Captains. He would be facing Totems and Kahunas to teach his students how it's done. Ash could help Ryuki to build the Kantonian Gym and then face Team Rainbow Rocket. Alola ended in 2019 with the Reiwa era, nice concept to be Ash's epilogue IMO. He becomes the 1st Champion of an archipelago 20 years after Orange Islands. The icing on the cake, make the Manalo Conference an international invite. It's basically JN's PWC, but done in a way to "redeem" Ash's prior league losts. I would have Tobias not be here tho, but I feel like he could've had Dia's role tbh. Dia is the Zeraora Trainer from Guzzlord's world, imagine Pikachu defeating them. Better yet, imagine that being how Pikachu unlocks the 10M Volt T-Volt Z-Move. Make it a Top 32 tournament, with Ash beating Cameron, Tyson, Harrison and Ritchie. Guzma defeats Hau & Gladion, so Ash would face Guzma in the finals to avenge them. Ash being Champion by protecting Kukui's dream and beating a villain is peak fiction.

[@rivalryyyy]

I think my major problem with losing is Kalos is just how much it made sense? It felt the right time. When he eventually won it was cool and the master tournament went well overall but I don't know, I feel there's a right time to pull the trigger and they didn't. Maybe they should of made the result inconclusive ot a tie instead if they wanted to continue the story - or maybe the championship fight is interrupted and stopped, while not resuming?

[@darkdragon7210]

For a Future video can you do Dawn should NOT have lost in Shinnoh?! That would be WONDERFUL!!!

[@rivalryyyy]

Do you mean in relation to Zoey beating her in the final?

[@darkdragon7210]

@@rivalryyyy Yes, I do.

[@Naruku2121]

Gotta say I agree Sinnoh Ash was robbed and his development was in a rut in the Unova era, Kalos is the league he should of won, but okay fine he didn't and he one the Alola one, some could argue it's too little too late, but by the time Journies came around it could of been a good capping off point for Ash by having him not focus solely on defeating Leon, and fan favorite champions like Cynthia, Lance etc. They can still be there, but having Ash face the opponents like Ritchie, Harrison, Tobias ect. People that shut him down in the past, but showcasing his growth by defeating most of the old opponents would only re-affirm his growth as a trainer and a Champion deserving to be number one.

[@rivalryyyy]

Yanno what facing all his old rivals who defeated him previously is a great idea that should of been done!

[@Naruku2121]

@@rivalryyyy Yeah, personally I feel it was a missed opportunity. And could reward long time fans to see Ash overcome the people that bested Ash a bit more closure. Not only that it'd make their impact as rivals feel less than an arbitrary stop gap for Ash (Tobias being the most blatant example)

[@eljordinio7647]

Definitely. Don't know about Tobias tho. That hacker could stay gone

[@rivalryyyy]

@@eljordinio7647 Honestly need to get hold of his action replay. At least 2 legendries? Come on.

[@Lyokoheros-KLPXTV]

5:40 yeah it was kinda bad they put someone like Tobias there... but honestly I don't remember it bodering me this much actually. I mean Ash still put up a great fight and he went further than in previous league so all things consider... it may have been cheap but it was somewhat acceptable. But it wasn't nearly as bad as Leon. I mean Tobias pokemons at least have actual reasons to be so overpowered (they were legendaries/mythical after all) and as far as I remember he actually did fight somewhat strategically... while Leon's pokemon were just absolutely overpowered and for 99% of the times literally NOTHING really worked on them despite not really using any strategy. They were just always to fast to be damaged or to durable to care, and to powerful to not knockout opponent without real effort. The most blatant an annoying plot armor ever (as far as I hate to talk about anime in game terms... I think good summary how Leons fights feel would be that it was like he has all pokemons at levels at least above 200+. Yes I know 100 is the max cap. And that's exactly the point.) - well at least they take it away from him for the last battle with Ash... but honestly in the world championships finale (where was Tobias at that time?) literally anybody who fight against him fought BETTER but yet his pokemon were just to overpowered to lose. 6:00 actually YOU are not making any sense there. Out of any Ash loses in later generations this was one of these which make pretty much most sense. He was fighting against clearly talented and knowledgeable trainer (one may not like Trip as a character but he surely was capable trainer from the start - which kinda reminds me of Gary...) with visibly at least somewhat talented pokemon... and both Ash were caught TOTALLY of guard with the fact Pikachu lose ability to use any electric move due to this weird Zercom storm. In that situation it was only natural he DID lost to this snivy. Yeah he didn't have to be at this low form for the entire season but IMO it wasn't actually this bad. He was far from his best form but such things CAN happen, I don't think it really breaks cohesion. (I'm grown adult too BTW, I'm 27 and actually in my childhood stop watching Pokemon at early Johto, to return to it few years ago and watching gradually it all the way to the end of gen 9) But yeah Ash being defeated by Cameron with only 5 pokemon really sucks. Even more because if Ash would win - as he should, even with his lower form - he could at least get to fight with Virgil... it would be so cool to watch Ash against all evolution team it could be one of more awesome battles... but we didn't even really get to see any of Virgils battles. Of course his fight with Ash should rather be in half-final than final, which would fit perfectly - he would lose just after fight with Cameron, before the final but with the actual league champion - it would be actually very satisfying. 7:15 and yet despite clearly showing he's back to the form with his battle with Clemont he lose so easily in first gym... and that fight really seem like it should be super easy for him. This was way more bothering me that his lack of form in Unova, his lose against Snivy (well not more than lack of his fight against VIrgil, let's not exaggerate there...) or even his lose against Alain. I mean he was so close, he almost did win, and it was just matter of changing the writing a tiny bit... but he still put an absolutely great fight, as his rival did, so in the end... yeah it was kinda unsatisfying, but not really that bad. And yes it was definitely much better moment to let Ash win than Alola, very likely the best possible. I mean in Alola... he didn't even have so serious competition. The best opponent he fight with was his new rival Gladion... who definitely was a capable trainer, but... well Alain was definitely better. And beside Gladion and Ash the overall level of Alolan league was pretty low, with just few serious contenders. Well that's not surprising it was first league in a region with not really much pokemon battling tradition, but it still makes it the least prestigious League of them all. Not really much more than the Orange Island one... (the Orange Island one in many ways was definitely precursor of that one... ) Alola's anime quality was generally all over the place. Firstly we got slow paced, chill season... which was kinda ok to better and more naturally learn about all his new friend there, then we got this surprising, sudden and unnaturally quick romance story with professors Kukui and Bernett (I mean they really could just subtly start to build up to this from the start and let the relationship gradually build up - like with May and Drew - or at least establish her as his close friend from some bigger time, so seeing it just flourish and changes from friendship to love wouldn't be so jaring) and a wedding in few episodes... and two great arcs, with Lilly family and then with Ultra Necrozma... it really start to felt like it could be better even that XY. Especially considering that any pokemon generally did have inner uptrend in quality, and the last opening compared to previous really promised something bigger even more epic... and everything we really got was just very watered down catching of simple ultra-beast catching, underwhelming league (well it was good but... it pales in comparison to the previous two arc or many other leagues, especially Kalos and Sinnoh) and "ultra-beast invasion"... of just 3 Guzzlords. I mean seriously? I don't really know what's worse - this how badly they played it with gen 7... or how much of a wasted potential Journey had. Oh, and completely scrapping entire Team Rocket vs Team plasma battle was horrible idea which really badly impacted gen 5 anime. I mean I know why they did it with the real life terrorist attack and all.... but honestly I can understand to delay the episodes from that reason even for a long time, maybe even till first re-run of the series... but to scrap it completely when whole building up for this was already broadcasted? That was just utterly stupid. t )

[@Hashim-Idrees]

what about journeys??!

[@rivalryyyy]

In terms of being a good decision?

[@eljordinio7647]

It had some really bad decisions Leon was disrespectful to XY considering how Alain and Diantha were portrayed as weaklings against him Goh was just straight up bad given all the controversy he caused with suicune, the starters, his pokemon catching goal and how easily it was done 95 percent of the time and how ash got less spotlight than him Chloe was a waste of space and completely useless The filler was the worst of the worst And besides Ash vs Cynthia and Ash vs Leon, they basically ruined most of the masters eight tournament with lackluster battles and constant interruptions with Chloe, breaks and recaps. Idc what happened behind the scenes, they had several breaks throughout the series so they should have been on top of this issue by now. For them to do what they did during the climax of all places, was just Unacceptable

[@SuperPlacido1]

@@eljordinio7647 Goh didn't do anything wrong about Suicune! It's just that "fans" don't take into account many details! Like the fact that Suicune was greatly weakened by all the attacks from the bandits' Pokémon, as well as being poisoned and injured in one leg! So it's only natural that Goh had an easier time capturing him! On top of that, when Goh fell, Suicune immediately got out of its Pokéball. In the episode, Goh took good care of Suicune and was even willing to let him go so he could accomplish his mission! It was Suicune who chose to stay with Goh, because Goh had earned his trust! So it was just the rage-filled shitheads who created a problem where none existed! People liked to create false problems with Goh's character just to complain for no reason! It must be because they have a shitty life!

[@eljordinio7647]

@@SuperPlacido1 that's no excuse for such a lackluster catch. Either u battle or gain its trust BEFORE u throw a ball at it, or u don't catch it at all

[@SuperPlacido1]

@@eljordinio7647 He had thrown the Pokéball to save Suicune! So a good gesture! That's how Goh thought! What?! Saving=bad, now? Is that it? There's no excuse! That's what I've been saying! You're just trying to find a flaw to cry about when it's not a flaw! It's a quality to want to help people, not a flaw! People cry when a character does something good! Do you see how stupid that is? Without Goh, Suicune might have been captured by the bandits!

[@saiyan4414]

also Ash's Kallos team composition was not the greatest. He had three flyingtypes, and two dragons. not to mention his greninja's move set was trash, i mean cut?

[@cttommy73]

I gave up after pokemon Diamond Pearl. The fifth series of the anime was shit and I called Ash losing there and dubbed him the forever loser. Even when he finally won, he was still the forever loser because he was an idiot who lucked his way to victory and when he finally beat Leon, I still called him the lame, forever loser because he only won due to plot armor. Ash, the forever loser. Just as shit as One Piece's Luffy, the second generation forever loser.

[@rivalryyyy]

Is Luffy that bad? I've never actually watched One Piece though I have been meaning too for years!

[@eljordinio7647]

@@cttommy73 typical overused excuse, plot armor