Ashes of Creations Biggest Problem is The Hardest to Fix

[@Narc]

Follow the stream for more copium: www.twitch.tv/Narciverse For anyone who wants to give feedback for this subject please use the following format for Intrepid to read through and compile: *How many hours did you play for:* *What level did you get too:* *What did you enjoy the most about leveling:* *What did you enjoy the least about leveling:* *How many quests did you do beyond "The Sweat of your Brow":* *What would you do to improve the Leveling Experience:*

[@rooster1012]

This game is dead on arrival if it ever makes it out of alpha before they go bankrupt, as I stated before testing servers will die fast as people get bored fast testing an alpha especially with no rewards and progression beyond 25. As an ex-lineage 2 player this is 100% what I expected from the game and all you WoW kiddies that thought you were getting a clone of that game are now waking up to the fact that you misjudged who this game is targeted at and made for when they said this was a "Niche" game you failed to listen and now you are becoming disappointed because of it.

[@LordDruez]

@@rooster1012 You must be a blast at parties.

[@TelevisionWarrior]

Go live more often sucka :o

[@AszkalonOfVerra]

*How often did Steven kill You, Narc:* 😁

[@eh298]

@@rooster1012 facts.

[@crimelord90]

I like the way it is personally.

[@ZapatosVibes]

Same. Needs a bunch of tweaks and tuning, and at least make a handful of quests really worth doing, but otherwise the foundation is extremely solid.

[@_Gorrek_]

idk i love mob grinding for levels, love the old school style. Quests to me are the lazy way of delivering levels, they should give you money, items that may be useful to use or not depending. EQ quests were great, WoW quests are 90% exp from the mobs you grind completing it lol

[@corthin_the_dorf]

Narc - you said it yourself "normal players are running from the game." One of the very reasons I have decided that Ashes is a game I want to play - is because it is NOT for the "normal" mmo player (modern mmo player). It IS in fact, a callback to the original MMO game style - one which personally, I AM HERE - FOR. Want a WoW experience? You've got that game already. They will likely see the Node system and bring it into WoW in some form - that's what they do there. But the risk vs. reward in Ashes - being "oldschool" - is exactly why I am here. Because that system creates REAL risk and REAL reward. It's the memories of experiences people from that Era can still talk about as if it were yesterday - not the Gear they got splattered to them left and right or how fast they hit max level. It was the journey. If you want a WoW experience - something you keep referencing when you say "they stopped doing X design decades ago for a very good reason" - then just go play WoW. Ashes needs to be something different because it is for a DIFFERENT AUDIENCE.

[@faeantiks]

Couldn't agree more with this sentiment. I would like to see the xp grind take longer, at least for this alpha. I dislike that in the 2nd weekend of A2 there were already cap level players. For an 8week long phase1 it should have taken 4-5 weekends to get to cap.

[@Infidel.]

​@@faeantiksAmazing, how can someone be so delusional

[@Infidel.]

Setting Ashes of Creation up for failure.

[@GaioSonase]

@@Infidel. might be. is that really a problem though? Failing is a normal risk of trying to do things.

[@Infidel.]

@GaioSonase Not if so much money is involved. People in general don't trust Kickstarter games and Ashes is considered to be the last hope.

[@Reinhard_von_Lohengramm]

Narc is the cancer that killed MMOs.

[@Cptraktorn]

Real

[@ChristaphonZ]

Has he watched any dev videos? Seen the alpha test phases? Very uninformed for a 10min video. Quests are coming tutorial is coming calm down.

[@maddawgmurray5230]

Cant wait till next week when you tell us all how good the game is again. honestly man, i have been watching your videos because you have a lot of knowledge on the game. But this video just shows that you were just running your own grift this whole time. the game isn't scamming people you are.

[@Nazgull2k1]

Ok A - 40 year olds arent Boomers.. we're Generation X. Secondly. Your "pinnacle" levels were accurately called "Hell Levels" by the EQ community. Im not THAT old damnit! Get off my lawn!

[@zatto1000]

i get 45 soon and im still Gen X

[@rooster1012]

What is funny is dude looks like a 45 year old dude with how poorly he takes care of himself and being bald at his age doesn't help.

[@SENYA666]

one foot in the grave... 🙏😓🙏

[@shperax]

Basically you're pretty much grouped by when you graduate high school. If you did it near the year 2000 you're a Millennial generation.

[@Bleggle]

As a 34 year old Millennial, I think the word "Boomer" is way too fun to use when describing someone older for it to be restricted to the actual baby boomer generation. I believe it'll continue to be used in that context for probably at least several decades after the actual baby boomers are all dead. I'm sure I'll be called a boomer soon enough and personally I don't mind, like I said, the word is just too much fun.

[@kreenbopulusmichael7205]

Steven is one of those top 1% type players and he is making the game for himself so

[@CHEFPKR]

I Everquest, you would typically get super powerful spell upgrades or skills the level before a hell level. Like my druid gets new dots, nukes etc at 44 and the hell level is 45. It balances it. Sounds like Ashes needs that kind of balance.

[@stevendare2532]

haha Hell level. I said this out loud the moment he mentioned it. Shocked anyone remembered it.

[@R.Mcarthur]

@@stevendare2532 i was like wtf is a pinnacle level?

[@livelucky74]

Was going to post its called hell level lol. I both hated and loved it in EQ. I always felt a great sense of accomplishment after finally getting through it. I havent played the alpha but I highly doubt it takes anywhere near as long in AOC as it did in EQ.

[@FoxSonatine]

I think commission rewards need to be heavily boosted. Right now the gameplay journey is "KZbin tells me to go to this area and grind with the others who watched the same video, because the bears/undead/whatever gives the most xp at this level range". Commissions being much more useful spreads people out across the world, has lore implications because you're helping out the town and allows for more opportunities to solo if you just want to chill or group up to get through them quicker.

[@ZenPaladin]

You know maybe its just me but i didn’t feel punished for dieing. I felt rewarded for living! As a Tank and mostly a solo one I had to run away a lot. But I did it! It was a boring grind but i felt like expansion of the quests later would help with that. Maybe it is to punishing for most and maybe Im a masochist but Im fine with the current death penalty.

[@ZapatosVibes]

1 death is a handful of 1-star elite as a solo (easily doable). Definitely not too punishing.

[@RadzPrower]

Yeah, death is only punishing if you're being cannon fodder and repeatedly running into situations you can't handle so the penalties start to stack up. Helps prevent zerg tactics of "throw people at it!"

[@yahnoh6279]

I have to disagree with the negative progression part. A punishment for dying really adds intensity to the game and rewards preparation, knowledge, and skill. HOWEVER, this requires a lack of RNG and bugs that lead to your death, so the game needs to be well-rounded and polished. I think that's why WoW Hardcore is so popular right now. anyway love ur content pce

[@zepho100]

What’s skillful about Zerg farming mobs for hours on end? That’s what the game rewards and there’s nothing else to do.

[@veil1792]

*A2, Phase 1 = Stability and Performance testing.*

[@DejvidR6]

u actually think they gonna solve those major problems with start of phase2? and since that was the target testing why would they just lower the amount for exp for lvls.. no normal humans got to max lvl.. on a testing phase u had to invests 200+ hours of griding most boring ass mobs to get max lvl thats not good for majority of ppl working 8 hours/school i dont think this kind of ppl will stick to the game if the grind will be that slow in a testing phases that gonna wipe..and testers numbers gonna drop real fast if this is way they want it to be

[@willthedingo]

Yep. It's just beating (off) a dead horse at this point. All of his critiques are essentially long heard and already spoken and already going to be addressed, because the game is it's absolute most bare basic right now. It was GREAT that a bunch of streamers with great communities came onto the game - because it's the best case scenario for hammering their infrastructure to test the Stability and Performance. Which is exactly what they're aiming to test. Everything else - all the bare basics are there, and the developers can completely gut and rehash how buffs and equipment works WHEN THEIR TEAM IS GOING TO CONCENTRATE ON IT.

[@endynegaming9413]

yep, we stressed the hell out of it during a node war. couldnt see the enemy army for 90% of the fight, massive rubber banding and ability delay/nonfunction. probably 50-100 on each side of the fight.

[@AszkalonOfVerra]

@@DejvidR6 Stop whining. The Classes are not even complete yet.

[@DejvidR6]

@@AszkalonOfVerra whos whining? fact is majority of ppl wont play testing phases when lvling is soo boring and u have to do most meaningless stiuf to lvl.. kill random mobs that dont trop shit anyway!!!! u cofused what hard is his words mean ...lvling is hard when it comes to time and u are not even rewarded for doing that which makes game really ATM

[@willthedingo]

@10:00 Re: Gatherers risks. Hire an escort. You hire people to run Caravans. You hire someone to get those risky materials. Or, get materials in non risky places. Ezpz and actually follows the PvX guideline - because there WILL be a time where gatherers are not all rainbows and fluffy mittens. They will be hunted for their materials, they will be executed for taking materials from locations where a Node is being guarded due to the scarcity of resources. I'm actually genuinely surprised there wasn't more hunting parties rolling around literally just executing people for it, or BANDIT RP when it came to gatherers already. It is going to happen. It's going to be part of the game. It's going to be part of nodes defending their rare exclusive resources from enemy nodes coming to steal their materials or rare wild valuables (like area specific hunting mounts/leather materials/etc).

[@dizzydwarf502]

100%. I think part of the reason it was so peaceful was at least 3 fold: 1. All node zones were non-PvP zones unless you flagged up, and also all the materials were all the same across all nodes. 2. Most people still haven't gotten out of the mindset that this is WoW or nearly every other MMO that gears you through killing mobs and drops. 3. Nodes have no vasal system yet, so all nodes can work together peacefully.

[@willthedingo]

@@dizzydwarf502 It was definitely very casual in the time I've been playing. The only time it got "serious" was when the official Node to Node war was enacted - EVERYONE that was a citizen of Halcyon or the other node, were flagged defender or attacker. Now imagine that happening and now anyone that is a citizen to Halcyon is attacked while they're at Highwayman Hills because they're at war with Winstead?

[@dizzydwarf502]

@@willthedingo Yep, I know all about it, I'm in Dynasty guild lol. You must be on Lyneth :). Mind you, I only leveled to 10 as a tank, and spent the rest of the time gathering/processing/crafting. Technically I only killed mobs until level 7, then gathered to 8, then grinded to 9 and stopped grinding entirely. I'm almost 11 and it's been all gathering. I'm one of those work horses who just wants to grind gathering/processing/crafting to help gear those for PvP.

[@ZapatosVibes]

The reason there was little harvester PK is because there are no nodes/cities in lawless zones yet. You CAN kill people in Riverlands, but corruption is extremely punishing (as it should be), that's why it doesn't happen often.

[@GaioSonase]

I think there really is a disconnect between different groups of potential users. I hear most of what you say, and what I think is "this might need tuning but it's exactly the kind of mechanic I want". A great example is moving items across the world. the fact that it is dangerous and takes a huge investment in time and effort is what creates meaningful economic and regional gameplay. Some balancing is needed, of course, but it's the right philospohy. If they manage to have a system where trivially cheap materials in an area of the map can command massive (10, 100x) prices, that's a huge success.

[@dizzydwarf502]

You are spot on about moving resources across the map, this is literally what this game is entirely focused around, without this, there is not Ashes of Creation. Nodes are even a thing if moving resources becomes trivial.

[@GaioSonase]

@@dizzydwarf502 I get the feeling from some of criticism that it's really a distaste coming from the impossibility of being and doing _everything_ in this game. Which, again, imho is exactly the way it should be. Most games you can fairly easily do pretty much everything with one character and even distances are mostly trivial. it just kills social gameplay that way

[@dizzydwarf502]

@@GaioSonase 100%, I literally just posted to someone else regarding not trying to do everything and in fact nor should they try and nor can they and nor should they. If you can do everything on your own, WHAT'S THE POINT OF THE "MMO" in MMORPG?! Edit: "That's what's so great about this game, everyone can focus on what they each enjoy most instead of being forced to do everything. And each person gets to have a meaningful experience in the aspects that they individually choose to focus on. I'm 100% content focusing the time that I have entirely on gathering in order to help gear those PvPers that are fighting for castles/nodes and those same PvPers will be helping defend me in my endeavors because I'm helping them in theirs, 100% player driven almost entirely because people have a chance to drop materials that are actually worth something."

[@ZapatosVibes]

Absolutely. The "inconvenience" is what makes the reward and achievement that much sweeter. In fact the artisan system as a whole is made for this. You need 7+ professions working together, gathering materials all over, and having to travel to different nodes to process each type of material and then getting them to the same place to craft the final item. THAT feels rewarding because of how much effort it takes; you need to cooperate with other players and map out your logistics appropriately.

[@torrey3536]

Narc - i want a hard game Also narc - the games too hard

[@DejvidR6]

there a diffrent between hard and pointless time waste.. its only time consuming its not hard to lvl and its really boring to only lvl by grinding mobs tbh idk if there is a single played that enjoyed the lvling

[@Riposte8]

Yeah, I noticed this and not just on difficulty. It's less "old school" vs "new", but rather matching his exact subjective desire based on exactly one game in at a specific moment in time (WoW, I guess). It obscures the how arbitrary his opinion when downplaying others' and it becomes silly when you juxtapose his arguments against both sides. You end up with him using the exact arguments he argues against. For example, on combat (movement, action, etc): faster, more actiony combat is for casual newbies who want shallow, flashy combat and can't appreciate slower strategic combat. But, then, slower, more strategic combat is for old fanboys who don't understand this style has fallen out of fashion ("for a reason") and will just bore people who want faster combat. So are we rebelling against "MMOs made today, who forgot how to... etc" or are we pining for these new changes included in MMOs today and dismissing the games of yesteryear as archaic? I think it's best just to drop the new vs old frame. Addressing the pros and cons of XP debt (or what could make it better) without invoking it being outdated, for example.

[@lukeit7949]

Dull grinding is not a hard game. There is no reason to feel elitist about wasting your time, there is zero skill required

[@AszkalonOfVerra]

*SPOILER !!!!!* "Grinding" a Game which is designed that take a *LOT* out of You to level up through grinding *-> IS. HARD.* !! 😁😆

[@iowkey_9339]

@@Riposte8 The combat has to be engaging. It has to be fun. It has to keep your attention and make you want to go back to it. Everyone has their own opinion on it, and it's impossible to reach everyone.. But they have to balance it for PvP, which I think is a mistake if they want to make PvE combat fun. What spells you have, how you use them, the types of enemies you fight and how you fight them - it all matters. PvE will never be as fun as it could be, because "how will this spell work in PvP" will always be in the back of the mind applying constraints to the creative freedom when designing spells and enemies. The systems currently in place, in practically all games, have already been done to death, what we have is a frankencopy of every game that's come out so far.. and because of that it's easy to compare it to other games, and see it's flaws as we compare it to the games who did certain aspects better, or that we liked more. I think we need a significant leap in enemy AI, enemy design, fight design and also spell design to fully engage us. A new take on it, something that pushes and redefines limits.. and challenges our preconceived notions of what good gameplay actually is. This is not easily achieved.. like trying to imagine a new color that doesn't exist.. so I think we're stuck here, finding flaws with new games because they made different choices than what we, personally would have.

[@kfarbarata]

About Leveling : Should be hard as fuck and with a level cap that took some casual a year and some hardcore something like 3~5months. Now its not that important anymore to have a balanced group as evr does too much damage, they should adjust the damage upscale and rework the craft system. Also I like the idea of when u level up u choice stats points (str/dex/cha/wis) like in d&d, I wish that changes more and we had to level up more to unlock more skills/magics. I like the idea of MMos with hard to achieve last levels (but that doesnt chance that much the last levels, so the gap is not that high). For me gear should impact in every 0' lvls (10,20,30...) but not as much as a lv 50 cant kill a lv 60 with gameplay and smartness. There should be gear for every 0' and 5' lvls and they should provide different stuff (so the player chose if they use a lvl 55 gear or 60 gear, depending of the add ons). The way Ashes is now, when ppl get some gear its a matter of who hits first. Thats not cool and I hope they change it. I like games where the fights last for long (mostly is cause ppl dont do that huge damage that can kill ppl with 1~3 hits). Nodes are clearly a long way to go; Dungeons , wish they add more stanced dungeons. Its cool openworld but I think that stanced have their value... or at least create some kind of open world that is hard to enter, like u need some quests to find the key to the entrance and other ppl can acess for a shor peryod (Ragnarok Online had something similar with the Geffenia map).

[@Kipx99]

Sounds like you want World of Warcraft

[@Cptraktorn]

He literally doesn't like anything about ashes, not even kidding 😂

[@khallixtus]

A lot of talk about all risk vs no reward, which is currently true. But I don't think the answer is to remove the risk as you say, but to actually ensure there is reward. The risk does definitely appeal to the more hardcore crowd, but I think it's a critical part of the game's core design. The issue is that these rewards don't really exist. I think the big issue is that there isn't enough loot. To be more precise, I should be able to go to a simple/safer farming area (such as goblins) and get a decent amount of basic loot, and go to dangerous areas (e.g. Citadel of the Steel Bloom or Tower of Carphin) to get a decent amount of better loot. Currently you get very little loot in any area, which is bad. You should get ample rewards relative to the risk you put in. Death penalties are also a core part of this game and without them, this game will largely just become another generic MMO with an improved city/town system via the nodes. Sure, it feels bad, but that is literally the entire damn point. Dying feels bad. Don't die. XP debt for sure needs to stay in the game. It could possibly be toned down though so that it is punishing but not prohibitive, except for maybe the final five levels of levelling, depending on other design factors (mostly how important/impactful going from level 45-50 is vs just being an achievement). Losing materials is also important. It's good that you don't lose more, otherwise it would be ridiculous, but the game needs death to be punishing for all players, which includes crafters. The risk is important so that opportunity can arise, otherwise loads of people will compete with me and my buddies mining/buying copper in the mountains and bringing it to the Riverlands for big profit (as an example). I will say though that some things, particularly for tanking (my profession), need changing. Given how often tanks die in groups it takes longer to level up and a lot of money to repair items. A better change though would be to make Cleric revives not incur these death penalties, or maybe give tanks some sort of passive where they don't get punished when being revived (though I prefer the former). Hopefully though a lot of this class design stuff gets fixed in later phases.

[@dizzydwarf502]

Finally, seems like someone understands why things are put into the game. Instead of just "this feels bad" so remove it. We need to be asking, why was this put in, and what will this change if it's removed. Very well thought out post.

[@R.Mcarthur]

its called a "hell level" not a "pinnacle level" i have no idea where you heard that term. all other points aside, claiming that because something didnt get transferred from everquest to WoW (and later mmos) somehow proves that it wasnt a good idea is an absolute non-starter of a link to make. wow was fucking terrible. it took 2 decades to get past the crap that wow introduced to the genre and go back to actual advancements in MMORPG gameplay. dont ever claim that because something was IN everquest and not in other games afterwards as proof of anything. at all. there has been ONE singular actual decent MMORPG since everquest and that was darkfall1, unfortunately the developers did not back the project and the idea was taken nowhere. if you look at the ruleset though ashes draws a lot of inspiration from darkfall1 which also had "nodes" and was intended to have dynamic npcs etc but the devs never actually did any work on the game.

[@Inseril]

I think you make good points here, however phase 1 was solely focused on server performance. So most of those things were not even a focus of my bug reporting. I have more expectations for phase 2 but for me phase 3 is were i am expecting a lot of what you pointee put to be ironed out or this game is screwed.

[@RadzPrower]

Yep, all my reports have been technical in nature. Floating mobs/NPCs, flickering shaders, frozen mobs, flashbacks, etc.

[@Ides385]

As a tank that has had over 50% experience debt at level 21 (due to a bug with armor not working), I completely disagree with your last point. The difficulty and risk in this game has made the world feel alive. It's world isn't a meaningless face roll like other games. Please Intrepid do not make the world easier. Keep leveling challenging so exploring a new place is dangerous and full of risk. When you master a grind there it feels like an achievement. I'm not reading into quests right now. They've already stated it's mainly just placeholder stuff. I'm in wait and see mode on this. Don't disagree with your other points or think they aren't that big of a deal either way.

[@maysenvincent1411]

1. Stopped keeping track of the hours after 200 hours. 2. Level 25 Tank. 3. I liked that each level felt like I was getting stronger. 4. Hated having to grind mobs for hours just to go up one level in later leveling. 5. Attempted multiple quests after sweat of your brown, but generally they were pointless. 6. Not sure how the process should be improved, but it needs to be. Not only are we tanks punished by the current system, but over the past few patches tanks have consistently seen tanking become more and more difficult. With that patch last weekend completely being a complete castration of our ability to mitigate damage. Tanks are not supposed to be easy targets in combat whether it's pve or pvp. During Thanksgiving week I could pvp 2 or 3 levels above me, and it was a pretty fair and even fight. Last weekend I couldn't even kill a lvl 19 ranger, while I was level 25. Tank has gotten slower has no CC breaks, and had it's skills that help with mitigation reduced significantly. Multiple people I play with have outright said they are not sure they will continue tanking if this is the direction the Tank class is gonna go. It's painful and it is not fun, and I agree with them.

[@Deezymeister]

Shake it off upgrade has a CC break

[@Xialoh]

I'm not sure being able to pvp 3 levels above you is "fair and even" for the player 3 levels above you...

[@dizzydwarf502]

​@@Xialoh It actually should depend on the class your going against, remember every class has a weakness and a strength. "rock, paper, scissors" - nothing in this game revolved around single player, including 1v1. So if the tank is fighting someone that is weak in fighting tank, then 3 levels for fair fight isn't bad, HOWEVER, if a tank fighting someone that should easily kill a tank is 3 levels above, this should not be a "fair fight". Edit: For example, everyone talks about how Cleric is just way OP right now.... part of that is simply because their is no class in the game yet that should be able to kill a cleric easily. Wait until Rogue comes, rogues generally are the ones that Cleric have the most problem with, so should help balance things out a little. But, until all classes are in the game, on top of that combo classes, we won't actually know how well each class is "balanced" for PvP. That being said, tank is pretty punishing, however, I believe part of the reason @maysenvincent1411 felt so bad from 1 week to the next for tanking in PvP, is that early on, nobody had any gear but then the following weeks lots of legendary gear was being crafted and handed out. So yeah, a level 19 archer, with legendary weapon, should wipe the floor with a tank level 25 in any gear, since the gear doesn't have much of any defensive stats to it yet. (This is a huge reason why the entire gear in the game had a stat squish last week)

[@endynegaming9413]

the tank class, just by virtue of what they named it, feels like its not been worked on alot. heres hoping for the proper attention in future phases

[@maysenvincent1411]

@Xialoh what i was getting at is that at 3 levels above me ot was a challenging fight some of which i won, some of which i lost, but overall it was a fair and well balanced fight even against a ranger of which I lost. After recent changes to Tank and after the gear squish fighting the ranger that was level 19 was like trying to fight a raid boss and I was dead in less than 10 seconds, this was completely unbalanced, mostly because the tanks mitigation skills were castrated. Before when I popped my skill it used courage as a multiplying factor to increase mitigation. Made the tank feel beefy and able to take a hit or multiple hits which is what a tank is supposed to be. After tank changes it was no longer a multiplying factor but instead an additive factor, which really reduced that skills ability to mitigate damage by nearly 90%. I'm not complaining I think the game is great, and have really no issues with anything other then changes made to the tank class. But each week there have been changes to the tank class and each week those changes make the class much more difficult to play. Tanks are supposed to be a powerhouse of health and damage mitigation. Each week they have made tank weaker and weaker, when you add all the other things, expensive repair bills, hell levels, exp debt, reduction in combat effectiveness because of exp debt, the reduction of damage mitigation, and the gear squish. You have now created a pit of hell for the tank class. Overall what I'm getting at is that if the way tank development has gone and if it continues, no one will play tank, and the game will suffer from it. I've played tank as my main in every mmo, that you can name, I've seen what happens when playing tank sucks, and while I will capitalize one it like I have in the past charging parties large somes of coin to tank for them. What you will be left with is a huge lack of tanks in the game, and no one is gonna kill firebrand or raid carphin without a tank.

[@askatrof9622]

I disagree about the grinding and the questing a true sandbox game don't need quest. Grinding can be fun if well designed like if every mobs have a loot table with ressources ranging from comon to super rare and those ressources are used for the crafting ( no items. looting items is boring and kill the artisan gameplay loop). Also about being punish when you die it's in the original design since the first minute why would they remove it? it would be a huge mistake in my opinion they need to balance it and make the lvling faster i agree on that part. Being afraid of dying far from any respawn and loosing your stuff is what make the best moment in mmos. You almost sound like you want AOC to become a casual friendly them park. About the pinacle lvl and the gear you are 200% right tho. Peace !

[@MebraRandoms]

To be honest I like it as it is, but I admit that from financial perspective AoC might push away the casual players and according to most people they are the biggest part of 1 MMO population, which means more $ from subscription. I really hope I'm not right. But if you check eve online numbers it has between 15k and 30k accounts online lately, depending on the time zone. And I doubt there are many player that have only 1 account online at same time. Can those numbers be enough for 1 MMO? Maybe, but eve-online have 1 server, not multiple servers. The only thing I didn't liked during alpha2 phase were the professions. Can't point out what exactly is off for me, but as a started I would say the fuel - it's fun mechanics, but having no way to have a big stack of charcoal is kind of meh

[@stormcall7470]

I played a small mmo with a pinnacle level where 1-199 required the same amount of xp as 199-200, and it felt quite good. I think the main difference is level 198/199 builds could still be quite strong if you invested a bit, you could clear basically all content in the game with those so getting to 199 meant reaching the endgame, and finally reaching 200 after a long time of using your strong 199 turned you into a god with the final upgrades.

[@xDirtybit]

Lineage 2 , EVE online and albion online... all risk vs reward games are still live and kicking just fine

[@Diogenes76]

I wonder if this game can sustain with similar small dev teams that each of those games have because of their niche market.

[@R173Y]

I think we need to double the leveling time

[@WasabithePom]

I have no issue with the 'negative progress'; perhaps some tweaking with experience debt, but I like it overall for the challenge and risk/reward

[@infinitely-random]

AoC devs: Guys we're doing a network test with no finished/working systems. Marc: Let me criticize everything, but the network issues.

[@riegorn3407]

I don't agree with you here on most things. I think difficulty of the world is good and i want there to be consequences to death. Honesttly the exp penalty is fairly small, at the late game its like 5 mob kills and you are clear. I also like that my group is playing it safe and consider carefully how to approach enemies. I do agree on issue for tanks, but that should be resolve by buffing them. Ourt tank suffered hard and its definitely wrong if tank can get one shotted by any mob around their level if the ability cant be evaded. Losing cleric and not having any choice but to leave to get him sucks hard. We do need access to ressurection scrolls or something.

[@BigSteelThrill]

I like the slow leveling. I like the forced grouping for best efficiency. The "hell levels" are indeed painful - but I'm not for-or-against them. Questing sucks, its true. This game hates tanks except for pvp.

[@digit148]

I completely disagree about xp debt. I think there needs to be higher xp gain/drop rates when you fight mobs that are higher level than you. If you advocate risk vs reward, there has to be good rewards.

[@mastery64]

10:00 nah it should be adjust but all these systems must stay. This anti frustration way of thinking is what make MMOs being just boring brain dead life less thing. If u're not affraid of dying to mobs while grinding you'll just doing it like a brain dead till it work, if you don't drop your material it will make the gathering of materials just a giant easter egg hunt that you'll do while watching a serie, so no they're is risk AND reward in this current system. You want this ressources ok but they're near elites mobs so don't die or u'll drops some you've been farming for quit a long time. So better doing it safe and secure the one you already have or going greedy mod and try to harvest the most you can that's what we want. BUT Is it well balanced absolutly not but a lot of this mechanics are going to be way more meangingfull for realase. They're bulding a world with mechanics made for the state of game we gonna have for realase not for the current alpha II with like 10% of the map. Will frustration make quit players ? Yes Obviously but this person should not have play in first place a game not made for them. I've seen too much MMOs dying because of this way of thinking

[@sliceofheaven3026]

But I think that was the point of Ashes of Creation. The return to the older style of mmo gameplay where everything was bit harsher. For example everquest had many of these punishments upon death. They didnt name trying to get your body from a dungeon a corpse run for nothing since if you didnt retrieve your body in a certain amount of time you lost your equipment. Though you could pay for certain classes for corpse retrieval. The reason why wow was a success was that it allowed a bit more relaxed type of gameplay when it was launched.

[@EisenEgon]

Biggest Problem is that this game is Tab Target Only.. Hybrid Combat doesnt work atm.

[@onewingedangelo1611]

What would you do to make there a risk vs reward? Exp debt was nothing.... I've died a bunch while soloing and worked it off relatively quickly to really noticing the debt. Dropping half your materials is good. When you have no fear of exploration the world becomes boring and empty. It sounds more like these are concerns for a solo player trying to play a group game. You worried about your materials? Gather in a group. Almost all of the good leveling spots have a respawn point close by. No clue where you are leveling that takes you 20 minutes to get back to. This whole video is you claiming there is a problem and providing no answer to it or providing any proof it actually exists.

[@mdtjack5777]

I haven’t played the alpha yet, but the sound of the challenge sounds exciting, I won’t lie. While many of these systems sound like they may need to be tweaked (with increased experience from kills, increased rewards from quests, more quests in general, and potentially some QoL options to help navigate some dungeons) ultimately it still sounds to me like the game is functioning as it was originally intended. I mean, Steven quite literally said he wasn’t looking to make a mainstream game, but instead one that catered to the audience who liked games like him. While the idea of every tenth level requiring way more xp than the previous sounds tedious, that also sounds right in line with Steven’s vision: a mechanic that forces players into grouping mentality, forcing those of similar levels to band together, and creating a sense of strength for those that have accomplished putting in the effort. I do get the sense tho that perhaps they should decrease this range to every five levels instead of ten, or at the very least increase the rewards from achieving such status. I would claim that the modern dilemma in mmos today, however, is how much they hold your hand, and how much we’ve come to expect them to; how they focus on individualism over group and community, with gear for every new level that’s half again as good as the piece before, and dungeons that are always instanced so the only fun and strategy comes solely from how fast you can clear it, or there’s some piece of gear that can only be acquired by farming this particular dungeon a hundred times, but then eventually *everyone* has it. I think we should be very wary asking Steven to do away with these “archaic” limitations, for I fear they may be the only thing sparing this game from the plague that is the rest of the market

[@Morraak]

I personally like hell levels, you just gotta make the juice worth the squeeze.

[@eszefvsdf]

They could be interesting milestones like the level required for job changing, the level required to challenge a dungeon, or the level before cap. But to have it at level 10, im not sure about that.

[@dregaus]

"There's a reason this wasn't brought over from previous games" ... there's a reason I go back and play old MMOs and skip the new ones. Its like you realized there's a focus on the old school values and then missed the point. You don't think it's fun? That's fine. "It's bad game design" is just not gonna get any agrees from old school style fans.

[@apexalcalode5842]

Laying it on a bit thick? Hell, it wasn't that bad. I didn't believe leveling was that bad. Of course, if your in a race to high lvl, it might suck and burn a person out... Editing this because of one thing I did hear about. Groups of lvl 20+ players running through low lvl areas killing everyone. Mr. Sharif. I am not going to pay a subscription for this!

[@ZapatosVibes]

If you kill a low level innocent players you immediately get 2 levels of corruption, which is an absolute disaster for your character (big stat loss, equipment drop on death), even worse if you keep going. No one is doing that. You will only see it this weekend because everyone will get deleted Sunday when phase 1 ends.

[@TheHighborn]

this will come form a place of love and me wanting the game to succeed. Big problem with the game is graphics. I'm not talking about performance but graphics. Quite many of the settings don't do shit, trees have halos, can't turn fucking AA off, enemies are glowing like a tree or look has texture corruption whenever they're targeted. Furthermore, as time went by word tiles are not only not getting better, but actually getting worse. More holes in the terrain due to misalignment, nodes having oil spill this week, Node crafting stations got rescrubbed for no fucking reason and due to this, hilariously the building signs are wrong. Steel bloom has doors randomly closed or open. Mobs bugging through terrain with knockbacks, and then randomly bugging back, spells pulling mobs thorough walls. This weekend caravans randomly having both water and ground states becoming totally inaccessible, Many of these are not "it's alpha bro" but actual regressions from week 1 and 2. The world becoming more and more fragmented with holes, and targeted mobs having corrupted textures were not a "feature" in week one. Yes server side issues have been solved, less and less crashes and the game is more and more stable, but many client side things have been totally left to rot. The holes in the terrain are totally inexcusable. Random waters in places (as in you start swimming and get a breath meter for no reason), water getting randomly deleted in places are totally inexcusable. Whoever places these is just negligent. It really would not take a lot of time to check when place. Options client side not doing shit. Textures don't have ANY meaningful change. Actually no change at all. Not in performance not in looks. Not sure what kind of botched AA is in the game but it needs to be ripped out stomped and spat on because it's garbage. (It's actually more of an UE issue). Global illumination is a total joke, as you tick it up, not only does it eats more and more performance but the game starts to look worse and worse. Cinematic global illumination puts me from 120 fps to 25. (I assume it's ray traced) View distance straight up does nothing. Like AT ALL. I can live with textures not having different LODs at this point of development, but.... Nanite and Lumen are not the solution. Speaking of lumen... Night and Day cycles are totally fucked. In SB they for quite a long time double spawned mobs, while in Carphin it either makes everything giga dark or flashbang. The random light spots during the night cycle were less annoying as they could be handwaved away by saying "clouds and moon" but this... what? This is supposed to be a vertical slice and I understand this was mostly a network test but those kinks have been ironed out a month go.

[@infinitely-random]

this will be fixed by covering 60% of screen with text, bars and outlines

[@jayjays_shed2158]

I wonder how many streamers are complaining because the game isn't wow and there isn't a safe lobby to run around in!

[@FischiPiSti]

Meh, I won't play until at least beta so I don't have experience, but in general, I don't mind slow leveling. In fact, one of my pet peeves is how in every MMORPG I tend to do all the quests in a zone and by half time every mob is already gray and offers neither rewards nor any challenge... If the game doesn't cater to the powerleveling tryhards, that's a plus in my eyes. Leveling should come naturally anyway, you shouldn't even feel the need for it if the gameplay is rewarding in itself. It's why I don't like vertical progression in the first place. The power gain is just an illusion if the mob levels scale with you anyway.

[@zepho100]

The leveling is incredibly boring and dull. Farming mobs over and over again isn’t a great system.

[@BlathnaidAOC]

Right now you go into a dungeon find a corner to stand in while the ranged person pulls stuff to your corner. You do that for about 60-80 hours and you're lvl 25... It's mind numbingly boring. It needs to be adjusted.

[@FischiPiSti]

@@BlathnaidAOC Why do you choose to do that? Why not just play the game, and go "oh hey new level cool whatever". If the gameplay isn't rewarding in itself without the arbitrary leveling, that is a far worse sign.

[@lukefrederiks5906]

The main issue with leveling is that there's no real questing in place. Commissions and story quests just aren't fun right now.

[@jayjays_shed2158]

Ikr, it's like it's an alpha that's being reviewed as if its a released game

[@endynegaming9413]

They have said that questing, crafting, and participating in all aspects of the game will be valid ways to advance. I don't think they have even half of what they envisioned for the leveling journey in the alpha yet. time will tell, though.

[@Hellsingtwin]

change title to "How to make this a WoW clone" if you are going to run an Alpha that only has 25 levels would you want people to explore at max level or have everyone test every level to maximum? No. The devs want to have extensive testing at all levels. The exp debt is awesome. It is like "Hardcore lite" all games have skill based curves, this one is just harder. If I see a level 25 I just think that that guy is better than I am...

[@mymiflying]

That's what risk is for, so that you get emotions. It’s like a good seasoning, but all you can hear is whining that everything is too complicated and risky. Carrying caravans is risky, collecting flowers is risky - mobs can kill you and you will lose resources. Beating elites is risky, you can die and get an experience penalty. Maybe the author of the video just chose the wrong MMO?

[@FerencElek-t1e]

Didnt play the game so far, i have couple of thousands of hours in l2, archeage, and poe(next time at least try out the endgame before u criticise the game features, for example ur claim that u have unlimited tries on bosses, thats only true for the campain/tutorial- on maps u have 6 portals [which means max 5 death] /map - and u risk money for crafting the map to run, if u cannot complete it u will loose money and exp- if ur char sucks u will never reach lvl 90 and u will never able to finish some bosses). In l2 there was a chance if u have war or pkers attacked u and u farmed for 3 hours, at the end of the day u could net negative 1-2% exp. If a mob killed u thats 2% fix exp delete(not debt - u could loose lvl) on higher lvls(earlier lvls 5%) /death, thats why u have to have a cardinal friend whos resurrect gave back 90% of the lost exp(mmo - realying on others, the healers on higher lvls cannot even solo exp themselves). On a very hard world top boss u can loose 1-30% exp easy, but after u learn the mechanics and get better ->u will get rewarded with less exp lost. Despite all above, l2 was stopped only by ncsoft's pay to win and at the end fcking up the class system, unofficial servers without pay to win are still alive and kicking, my last server was about 2k ppl concurring, no botting, great sieges(500-800 player in 3-4 main factions), world boss pvps, politics, the game is 20 years old. So i think u r wrong, there will plenty ppl to play this game. Ur perception that u have to personally gain from quest otherwise it doesnt worth doing it in an MMO environtment astonishingly selfish/NARCisisstic, a lot of times u do quest so the clan/cp can enable something for the group, not even up for u to debate if this is worth doing for u or not, guild says its mandatory to do it or u will be kicked. I dont want to see the possibility in the game that u can lvl up to max mainly by questing, for me quests r for the storyline and content enabling, not an alternative way to advance ur char. it seems to me u r a solo player, playing mmo completely missing the genre(dont even mention the watered down versions, where u can get everything alone whatever class u choose to play). No game is MMO for me without castle siege/politics.⚔ Before u come with the top 1% bs i was never at the top, i'm too casual for that. In a good mmo there is also place for casuals, u just wont have the biggest dick in the game, but u can be still useful and appreciated by others.

[@EugeneGolden]

I absolutely disagree with this entire video. The MMO's I fell in love with reward time invested over anything else and the world feeling dangerous and death feel really bad was what made it exciting and fun. Ashes stands against the carebear MMO plague and if you can't handle losing 25% of your materials because you were both too antisocial to bring a friend while gathering AND too dumb and hot headed to avoid the mobs around your gatherables than you should go back to WoW

[@skyridercommendor6303]

1:48 into the video. "how ever" you miss the hole point of this testing phase. ;-)

[@HT-jj5sx]

I know you'll get roasted for this and called every name in the book. But, you're right, so many of these 'old school' designs just aren't worth going back to for a reason. If they keep it the way it is, then it'll be Steven and his 2,000 best friends playing the game.

[@stefices]

I fucking agree!

[@nivar9458]

I 100% disagree with everything you said. If folks can’t handle risk & punishing game play when they fuck up, they always have wow or other games I don’t touch.

[@zelele100]

You want no hell levels, easier leveling, gear at all levels, no xp debt, less material drops, less death penalties over all... And you constantly say "games are over this", "games do not use this system anymore", yet you are the one who's been preaching that all modern mmos are shit for the past 3 years. Well, they are easier games with no 'negative progression' and lots of 'modern systems'. Here I feel like I got to use the same card you have used in the past: "Ashes of Creation isn't a game for everybody. Maybe it's not the game for you, and that's ok." That being said, quests have no significant reward and I do agree with you on this topic.

[@zelele100]

Just to be clear, I also agree the game is not in a really good place right now with how leveling is.I just disagree on most of your suggestions to make it better.

[@n55tourist32]

narc, think of it this way: when the risk is high enough, you are more likely to go and seek a group to do content with, and the class identities are more pronounced and needed this way. I see this dynamic happening in classic hardcore WoW right now. of course hardcore is not for everything, but AoC is not hardcore where you lose your character.

[@bitcoinkang]

Thanks for doing this complex and dangerous quest. Here is the same amount of experience you would get for killing a few birds.

[@Yor_gamma_ix_bae]

Did you get threats from players after this video or do people mostly agree? Some of these criticisms might be deliberate testing decisions. Like forcing gameplay to see results etc.

[@mick0matic]

gear in this game looks very unimaginative and its all brown tones, why would i play a game for 100s hours only to look like a douche in leather? bizarre how this game punishes you for leveling up, surely this game will be a great succes

[@R41D3NZ]

No. Death should be punishing, the fear of death gives it weight. The game is more fun with this risk. The world should be punishing.

[@livelucky74]

TLDR you want it to be less like Everquest and more like World of Warcraft, aka, no risk whatsoever so 12 year olds wont quit the game. I want the opposite. I am excited for it exactly because it's going back towards the old school ways. Hell levels, grinding, actual punishments for bad decisions, it's going to be great.

[@GaioSonase]

I really like the "pinnacle level" thing though.

[@R.Mcarthur]

some of your takes reveal just how little you understand about the genre mate. instead of deriding the people who came before you, try listening to them instead. there is a reason things are the way they are today in the MMO genre and you do not seem to have handle on what ashes of creation is, where it is at or where its headed. most quests arnt even implmented yet, let alone tuned in even the most rudimentary way.. the progression likewise probably isnt reflective of the actual product.... that being said: the idea isnt to dumb the game down and make it as easy as possible so you get the most people through the door as you can.... the slow pace of the game is about something longer term, not a quick smash for the fortnite crowd to log into. if people who want to act all sweaty cant handle having to play an MMO in order to pvp in an MMO and they stop playing - thats a good thing! having people who are just dropkicks infesting the gameworld doesnt make the game better. neither does a bunch of bluebies who only want to do their "pvp" in a battleground or arena if folks want to play the game (proplery tuned obviously) they should be welcome if they want to prey on the game and just make an ass of themselves 24/7, we are all better off without them if they want to pray in the game and contribute absolutely nothing but whineing noises about the difficulty curve - likewise much better for everybody involved if they dont play either. ashes of creation doesnt have to be and shouldnt be designed for "everyone" thats where world of warcraft went wrong

[@magicofgaia]

I highly disagree with the idea of gimping grinding & boosting questing.. grinding quest XP for leveling is what leads to the "solo MMO" problem. FFXI did a great job with offering unique gear, areas, maps, or new area access from quests. Experience debt could be tweaked but it should not go away.

[@bxqpxd]

so you're saying that's just a better looking quinfall ?

[@Numero_E]

Follower of AoC since day one. I am watching you for years now Narc. But here you are hugely mistaken. Since the begining of this project Steven said that this game will be made for the people that like this kind of oldschool hardcore MMOs. What you describe, no death punishment, easier lvl up etc etc, the whole gear section, is what every single other MMO of the last 15 years has. And people seem to be dissapointed by the majority of them at the end. This game is based on Archage and Lineage2. It's simple as that, this was the idea from the start, and the people from these communities want this, and are waiting for this. You can simply play an MMO that meets your standar. There are plenty. And if you dont understand what is the point of this game design, go play Lineage2 in a good low rate server and see why thousands of people are still playing. And no, Lineage2 didnt "die" because of it's nature, it died mostly because NCSoft tried to convert it to a "newer" MMO, with quests and cashshops. The old school Lineage2 is still alive and kickin' in private servers, with thousands of people, and when i say thousands, i mean numbers that you wont believe they exist. A research might surprise you. So i get what you are saying, but this game is made to be hard, grindy, with death consequences, pvp, pk, politics and grief. Accept this, explore this path, because the other path of easy game failed you already, and it might be good. Dont try to change it to something that already exists. *Also saying that some things never worked in an MMOrpg etc when you referring to systems from Lineage2 for example, is dumb. The game was one of the 2 colossal MMOs during the 2000s worlwide along with WoW. It's an MMO that after 7 years of HUGE success, the company tried to alter it to something better, and they just failed. So all these systems did work greatly and for years in other MMOs. It's just that it's not for everyone's taste.

[@matrim_1337]

In my experience the Abilities you get before each Leveling segment are enough of a power spike to help with the "pinnacle" level grind if you spend some time optimizing your class. In fact this literally encourages you to do just that.

[@gavinjackson5735]

Im hoping Alpha 2 Phase 2 is good coz i enjoy Narc but want him to PLAY the game not just fly around moaning. Time to use those artisan skills on the next great mmorpg Ashes of Creation. ON THE SCREEN ! FBR.

[@fefner1642]

I like the slow leveling, it's supposed to feel old school like games like EQ, Daoc and others of that same timeline, grab yourself a group and grind away, it's what MMOs were all about, socialising. New MMOs just make it too easy so it can be done solo. It needs to be kept as it is, yes maybe have a few tweaks here and there, maybe to get to lvl 10 could be faster so you can become a citizen quicker but all in all, it's fine as it is.

[@omimace]

I must the outlyer I am glad that risk is being brought back and glad that Death feels like having a consequence, mmos mainly but also other games have normalised death to the point of it sometimes being easier to die that progress through x/y. The fact that when I venture out intot he wilds there is a perceived risk adds to my enjoyment and jubilation when said adventures are succesful and just right off thos that are not. Where I agree the pincle levelling points level 9 level 19 etc are sometimes frustrating, have beezed through them by being in a solid fun community that has grinding groups that are fun and enjoyable and on the occasional wipe through a mistake or getting lazy we regroup, laught it off (sometimes it self becoming a memorable moment) and continue. The frustration has far and far been overshadowed buy the group fun play silliness we enevitably end up having rather than chasing the stat x. With the frustration counterbalanced this way when we do hit the 10, 20 etc it has felt massivly like progress and an achievement and never really relief as why would we want relief from good times and banter. For me this reminds of the phrase I enjoy the journery often more than the destination. So maybe just my opinion but though a counter argument is always welcomeand even though I watch all your vids and agree with many of them this is just not one I found myself agreeing with to the degree you emply, and I would be concenred if you made all these changes similtaneously and without decent checks and balances you would actually rub out an old school eleemnt of banter and comadry that I dont want rubbed out its why I dislike modern MMO's (43 year old gamer, PC gamer since 14 for info :) but not sure why we have to make it about age)

[@livelucky74]

"Negative progress has never worked in an mmorpg" except for the one that essentially started the whole genre and completely shattered any and all expectations for player count, Everquest.

[@ZapatosVibes]

Although gear REQUIREMENT is by 10 levels, there is gear progression in the bracket. For example, Tin bow < Bronze bow < Forsaken bow, despite all having level 10 req (Tin = basic tier 2 material. Bronze = higher T2 material, Forsaken = special mob drop required). Quality of gear is also much more important than level. A max roll Heroic Tin bow is about equal to a low-roll Rare Iron bow (lowest lvl 10 bow, lowest lvl 20 bow). Also, drops were also much more common in phase 1 than what it will be later on due to crafting being fairly barebones.

[@CaptainAtremis]

I really hope AoC becomes a great game. But listening to all the issues around leveling, I get the feeling that AoC may end up being the best thing to happen to WoW in the past 10 years. Because once people get their feet wet again in AoC they will be looking for something more casual and fun to play.

[@abroad9386]

I joined phase 1 a little late. But the biggest problem I saw was mob training. Lvl 20's in low level zones training elites onto groups of us and looting our corpses. People say "flag up" but we literally 1v15'd a guy and lost. If they don't address this I think it'll be a serious issues for players who start soon or who fall behind. People grief in video games and the devs need to prevent issues like this from pushing new players away. Thanks for addressing it.

[@Korvis117]

They've already slightly addressed this by significantly lowering the gear stats on rearer items

[@dreypa2464]

HIghway hills lyneth problems

[@gimpg5329]

I'm unsure about the death punishment. I feel that if death isn't punishing, it literally is just annoying but also doesn't motivate you to survive as much. It's the worst of both worlds. An example of what I mean is for instance the feeling while playing hardcore, of any game really. The fear of death really makes your blood pump and results in some really engaging moments. You do everything you can to live, and when you do live with little HP, it feels so incredibly good. Now ofc AoC shouldn't be that punishing, and I do agree that currently, it is probably too much. But I think that it is probably good for the game to have more punishing deaths than most other games, so it becomes something more than just an annoyance. But that probably requires a lot of hard fine tuning as well as giving players tools to live hard situations if played well. Games like classic WoW does this very well with items such as target dummies and most classes having unique tools to live. I also am worried about people not experimenting as much and not taking risks however, so they need to make hard encounters rewardable, especially with fewer players in the group (so people don't just zerg them down). Imo, slightly decrease the punishment of death, but heavily increase the incentive for taking risky fights.

[@wtfwhoisthisguy]

I hate to say it, but just my feedback as someone who has been following this for a while. But the game just seems... madly unappealing. The gameplay doesn't look that good, the visuals are kinda crap... I mean Alpha is alpha - but we can reasonably deduce a lot of where this is going to end up from its current direction. It looks like dogwater.

[@zepho100]

It’s pretty 💩 to be honest. The world is boring, graphics are old and killing bandits and bears forever isn’t fun. It’s like New World meets GW2 but worse than both of them.

[@ConquerorAR]

Progression through quests is just stupid, "go grind there and get exp from this npc". At the end of the day you are grinding 😂, but you are grinding where the game wants you not where you have the most fun so it is actually more boring.

[@4444lowbrow]

Pinnacle Level... got it, damn. That explains how I managed to be stuck at level 9 for 3 weekends...

[@bjo9000]

No, it does not 😅 that just means you didn't kill any mobs for 3 weekends. It really doesn't take that long to level form 9 to 10, it takes a little less exp than 7 to 9 and a bit more than 10-11.

[@Hellsingtwin]

@@bjo9000 right?! He makes it sound like the exp required went from 700k to 3m. When it to get from 9-10 is about 150k less than 10-11. I don’t love the mob dropped gear either but that isn’t the point of the game. The point is to make or buy the best gear.

[@America_is_now_MAGA]

Why do you have crabgrass as a logo?

[@dizzydwarf502]

Sorry, but I leveled from 9 to 10 (171k xp) entirely on gathering in just 2 weekends. If you were stuck that long, you weren't really playing much. And yes it's slightly more 9 to 10 than 10-11. 9-10 = 171k xp 10-11 = 150k xp People are making this out to be some huge deal, it's not much at all. Killing mobs 3 levels below you can gain you 300-500xp/kill, while gathering gets you 34-150ish xp/node (if you proc higher than common you get more xp). Oh, and that XP for gathering was with, gathering scroll active 100% of the time.

[@Riposte8]

Questing for XP is overrated and tends to make games too structural (especially when it becomes a hub to hub progress line). That's not to say quests shouldn't have better rewards (like gear, but most of all story). EDIT: Games like Demon's Souls already provided a solution to make XP debt/XP loss/etc. less punishing while still feeling punishing. That is to say, recovering from a death or any sort of step back in progress, could provide new opportunities to include interesting mechanics that flesh out the rest of the game.

[@aragonts7837]

The game looks like its from 2008 :[ hopefully its good when it releases in 2035

[@sixtyfivewatts65]

4:23 level 20

[@YarnellCrew]

Watching the game play in your video was like watching a stream of WvW in GW2 with slower combat. Is this what the game is like?

[@PyraiSage]

You on crack? How many times have you and everyone else who pays attention intrepids very consistent messaging, said stuff like “this game is not for everyone, it is old school, failure should mean set backs, it is supposed to suck, don’t like it don’t play.” Now you’re saying “mmos have changed and ashes NEEDS to adapt to current mmo philosophy to suit the masses or it will fail.” No thanks. I like the bite of failure and set backs. It feels more immersive than being on a linear, upward trajectory at all times with no risk of setback.

[@ndnow12]

Leveling in an MMO adds up to under 1% of a players total playtime in the game, I really hope they don't waste to much time with this. Also, I don't know why MMOs are still stuck on leveling by numbers, 1-x system was made my blizz to help tell their warcraft story, it's unnecessary. The way it used to work is you level your abilities not your character number and that opens up a door for so much more depth to character development.

[@zatto1000]

Pretty accurate summary of the major problems the Alfa is having so far !!!! Devs pls watch this!!!

[@ZapatosVibes]

Grinding and long leveling is good. It keeps players engaged and makes new gear/levels meaningful since you're really using the new power a lot. That being said, more quests would definitely be welcome to break up the gameplay. I definitely wouldn't go overboard with them though. Keep the sandbox a sandbox. Just have one level be a "quest" level every so often to develop the story and vary the gameplay. Hitting level cap is when you're done, the longer it takes the better.

[@Schweppes007]

Biggest criticism - combat looks like dogshit?

[@GaioSonase]

it really doesn't?

[@YommiOfficial]

Guy with 2 level 25s here, my thoughts: Pinnacle level: I like it. I didn't feel relief upon hitting lvl 10, i felt rewarded as I unlocked the next tier of gear and had an easier lvl ahead of me. Segmented gear: It's not ideal but there isn't a much better way forward and with recent (HUGE) nerfs to gear, lvl 20 (dropped) gear is approx < or = to crafted lvl 10 gear so really not that big of a deal. Lack of rewards: Rewards have to mean something; I came to AOC from New World where they hand you everything. The only thing that's going to give this MMO a shot at decades longevity (like OSRS) is rewards that are NOT given to you. If that means rewards have to be few and far between and casual players cry themselves to sleep, then so be it. Negative progress: I LOVE the XP debt system in Ashes. It's just the right amount of annoyance upon death where you don't want to log off, but you have to stop and think about how you're going to approach the encounter better next time or stop and think before even engaging in an encounter. It makes you turn your brain on; this is not a bad thing. This game needs to be hardcore. It MUST not fall to the modern day plague of participation trophies and lack of consequences (good or bad).

[@davidfear6098]

I've got 2 issues with your takes here. First, you aren't giving enough credit to the fact that this is a very early alpha release. Levelling will be completely different soon when questing, gear, etc. is added to the game (they've said these systems aren't complete yet, multiple times). Second, you repeatedly talk about systems that were removed from games 2 decades ago as if that's a reason to not implement them. The reason the landscape changed 2 decades ago is obvious, World of Warcraft, and most MMORPG games since then have failed because they tried to copy World of Warcraft. For the game to distinguish itself it needs to be different, and there's definitely demand for things like negative progress. An example of this comes from World of Warcraft itself, hardcore is becoming a very popular way to play the game.

[@cbrown753]

It truly baffles me how much people are complaining about things we all know arent finished being implemented yet. Like cant we all acknowledge that the game is like 15% released in phase 1???? and we are upset about balancing, and how well the gear meshes with the fraction of the game we have, and oh the grinding is tedious because the quests arent fulfilling. Like ffs guys THE GAME ISNT EVEN CLOSE TO DONE. They have on soooo many occasions communicated that this phase was meant to test server capacity, and their server meshing tech, and all kinds of back end processes, and here we are watching a 13 minutes video about a youtuber who didnt like the missing pieces of an obviously incomplete game. Everyone complaining about the wipe last weekend was dreadfully annoying, like what did you think you were buying into??? This isnt a COD beta, its literally an alpha build of a massive game with so much potential, and none of what narc is saying is even remotely acknowledging the state of the game. Narc "The quests are unfulfilling during phase 1 WAAAAAAAH" Then says the game isnt good enough for the player base in its current state and now people are leaving. Like if you dont want to be a game tester there is the door my friend...

[@vegeedk]

grinding in a grp can be alot of fun and you get to know ppl.. insted of questing solo all game long.. thats shit game design.. imo

[@scirezztv1534]

I hope it’s safe to say that phase 2 when the story arcs come online we will get more quest ha ha and in return rewards hopefully? I know the focus wasn’t on quest or anything else really besides service stability and networking, but I agree with everything that you stated and the feedback is great in my opinion. A part of me wants to believe a lot of this content that wasn’t included was done purposefully to force people to grind in areas to test, networking, etc. but in the same breath questing hubs would also achieve the same goals.

[@Rare-s9y]

"There is a reason why games moved away from this" perfectly sums up ashes of creation

[@Diogenes76]

I played MMOs when they first came out and remember how things were, and why they changed. There are reasons why the industry evolved away from certain design paradigms. It is fine to try to resurrect some of the outdated gameplay, but to do it without addressing the reason it changed is a recipe for disaster.

[@TdotJohn]

This game is so much further away from release than people think lol I estimate 2028-30 for full 1.0 release

[@Dedgeo]

narc cant even get to lvl 25

[@jinglyjones1677]

Personally it's only quest content and gear at levels 10, 20, 30 etc that jumps out as a problem to me. And both are pretty easy (and likely) to be solved. I'm a Classic Wower but I do quite like the idea of exp debt on death. Anything that makes it more impactful (within reason)

[@tarmok3756]

I agree with many, but not all, the points Narc is making here and I really think it is good to give this kind of feedback, but also to remember it is still an early alpha

[@bryantbagnall4150]

I have played for approximately 70 hours. I am currently level 16 Ranger Leveling was most enjoyable when a good 8 person group was found and we were able to stick on elite mobs without dying It is a combination of exp debt and the potential hike back to your body (depending on where your closest ember spring is) I dont mind the idea of xp debt, but it is really hard to bounce back from when you are without friends to play with. I currently accumulate around 17k per death, and while by myself I may only get to kill 2-3 one star mobs before needing to use rations. This takes about 4 minutes, then I am sitting for about a minute to recover health and mana. It takes anywhere from 10 to 20 mins just to recover my xp debt. It takes me even longer if I am not around one star mobs that I can take on my own Beyond "The Sweat of your Brow" I do tend to take the kill and gather commissions from my node because that is what I am out doing, and I usually log when in my node so I find it supplementary to take them, even if the exp and glint rewards arent much to write home about. Every little bit helps I feel like more level exp when crafting and gathering would be nice. But the most significant change I would like to see is questing properly implemented. I am waiting for the lore that Intrepid has been talking about

[@PHaRTnONu]

7:52 Story arc's have been mentioned and are in the wiki as being in phase 2...

[@veeshan222]

Technical term of pinnacle levels are hell level :P They do have the added side effect of the following level feeling like they super quick so i guess there one good thing about them lol

[@irishned6464]

No one will be questing as it will hinder rather than help your progression, especially in the early game as you need mats for crafting, gear and XP, all which initially require mob grinding. Quests will need to provide all of those things at a meaningful level in order to to be worth doing (beyond the rp factor). Otherwise you will fall behind other players/guilds and be unable to compete against those who chose the fastest and most rewarding path to power.