Give Me an Answer -

[@1godonlyone119]

Katie says: "If everything was designed perfectly, then we would live on a perfect planet." Right before she said that, she explained in detail the fact that this planet _is_ perfect for life. Therefore everything is designed perfectly, and therefore Intelligent Design Science is correct.

[@JolinHard]

😂😂i noticed that. 18:28

[@blacksuburban2410]

The Catholic church and the LGBTQ have made so many atheists!

[@1godonlyone119]

@@blacksuburban2410 There is no such thing as an atheist, actually.

[@rogercarrico4975]

Katie was all over it! It just hasn't clicked yet. What she's taking about is in fact part of the " evidence" she's looking for. So many incredible " by chance" things coming together. That create our world. We live in. That when you stack them all together. There is no room for " by chance" anymore. It's clearly " by design"

[@slippyg]

Katie believes the galaxy is not designed by order??????? A few degrees off and we all fry or freeze but the precision keeps us alive. How can anyone believe that's just luck????

[@MikeLocke]

This guy is awesome!

[@daveck98]

Let US pray for this sweetheart , may Christ keep drwaing her to Himself , Amen !

[@sloothlothos1]

I hope she eventually puts her faith in Christ. I believe she will.

[@randomreviews1461]

I have the same feeling.

[@codeblood2000]

God bless your heart Katie.

[@SpaceEagle93]

Cliffe has made me realize my desire to become closer with God and Jesus. And I am honestly very thankful for these videos because they’ve been able to give me answers that I myself have had and strengthen my faith more than I could have ever thought before. Thank you Cliffe for doing this and helping the many of us that have come across you. Bless you

[@sillywamosir]

my God this guy is so humble!

[@Tonya-gi1ms]

No, no Way would I believe that the universe came About by chance. And even if It did, what force behind this “chance“would cause it to even come about? There is an intelligent designer hands-down

[@cliffordsy4249]

a lot of college students are just finding their own self. So being a atheist is one of them. When i was in college i was just like these people cliffe usually takes. But in the end just about everyone i know comes back to the faith. Because athiesm philosophy is unliveable.

[@BigIdeaSeeker]

Only because I'm curious (and completely sincere)- can you explain why "athiesm philosophy is unliveable"?

[@heismagnified5950]

@@BigIdeaSeeker Atheism basically says that no god exist what so ever. And so with that comes major cons and absolutely no pros at all. No God concludes that there is no absolute morality, so people like Nazi Germany cannot be absolutely wrong for what they did, and the reason why we do say they’re wrong for murdering Jews was because of an absolute morality we all agree upon: murder is wrong. So for absolute morality to exist, there needs to be an absolute Morale-Law Giver (hence God). That’s why, atleast for me, is the reason why people can’t truly live as an atheist because everyone goes by an absolute morality throughout their lives.

[@BigIdeaSeeker]

@@heismagnified5950 I think it’s great that you stated “at least for me,” as it is an honest statement about what your needs are in regard to existence. For some reason, so many Christians seem to need to feel they have some kind of “ultimate meaning or purpose” in the universe. Similarly with a clearly defined and absolute moral structure. I don’t mean this as an insult, but it’s like milk for babes- the easy way out. It’s true that a universe without God would be more challenging, and morality must then be determined and worked out with a lot of hard work and dialogue. But it’s not so simple as stating that the wrongness of murdering others is the same as one’s opinion for flavor of ice cream. I highly recommend the Shelly Kagan vs William Lane Craig debate in morality (especially the dialogue where they’re sitting in chairs and talking). Kagan makes a case for morality without God. Besides whether there is meaning or absolute morality in the universe doesn’t matter. Only truth does.

[@tnmusicman1]

Way to go, Cliff. You explained it the best way you could . I hope she finally got it and decides to investigate further her true motives for being an atheist. She already stated she didn't really know why she was atheist then she said lack of proof. Maybe Cliff caused her to come to the realization there IS proof for theism.

[@BigIdeaSeeker]

"Her true motives" for being an atheist- you mean looking at the world and seeing it as not indicating in any way that there is definitively a god, most especially the one Christians so narrowly define (in a great diversity of conflicting ways)? It's a conversation, she was mature enough to enter into it sincerely. Can you not do that as well?

[@raphaelfeneje486]

@@BigIdeaSeeker "As not indicating in anyway that there's a God." That's the most illogical and dishonest thing to say. So tell me, who designed the universe?

[@BigIdeaSeeker]

@@raphaelfeneje486 Illogical? And you ask *who* created the universe? “Who” is a major presumption on your part. How do you know a who did anything? And *what* brought the *who* into existence. Again- it’s a conversation and the atheist is sincere in beginning with a question rather than an answer as the Christian does.

[@raphaelfeneje486]

@@BigIdeaSeeker Why are you attacking strawman?? There's a girl saying she doesn't know why she's even an atheist, you're automatically concluding that because she says she can't tell how the universe came to be, it automatically means the universe has no designer. That's illogical. The new atheists aren't even thinking. Cliffe is of the opinion that looking at the design of the universe, it's impossible to not believe in a designer. That designer is who he calls God. You can call it anything, but it sure has a designer. Christians are more articulated than y'all new atheists. You believe in nothing, and that's an illogical position to take

[@dgarnush]

Thank you Cliffe!

[@1godonlyone119]

The universe is perfectly ordered, from the timing of the rotation of the galaxies, right down to the sub-microscopic workings of every single atom, and everything in-between. That unfathomably complex order (AKA specified complexity) necessitates an extremely intelligent designer as its cause.

[@G14Soccer]

Thanks cliffe. Great mini sermon at the end! Really stumped the girl at the end.

[@jautonnboyd4070]

She argued saying chance when talking about us being placed on this planet. If we live on any other planet we don't exist. To close to the sun we bun up to far from the sun we freeze. The earths atmosphere is made up of 20% of oxygen, 15% we suffocate, 25% fires break out everywhere and we burn up. Here argument points directly to design.

[@fletcher373]

Exactly, yet she said that those facts point to chance. Huh? They actually point to intelligent design I didn't like that Cliffe didn't point that out to her. He was soft on her silly assertions, if she were a man think he would've push back better.

[@thepherm]

Thank you!

[@christipaz8081]

PHILIPPIANS 4:4-5 "REJOICE IN THE LORD ALWAYS, AGAIN I WILL SAY, REJOICE. LET YOUR REASONABLENESS BE KNOWN TO EVERYONE,"THE LORS IS AT HAND". Hallelujah, Hallelujah

[@1godonlyone119]

Katie's final statement is classic atheistic uncertainty: "So... hmm." LOL

[@lancecryor]

Great vid Cliffe

[@autry33]

I will say this and I can't believe I have to say it (to some, not all). To criticize the young lady is entirely arrogant on our part as believers. She, like many of us who now believe, is on a journey. We have found water in the desert but she is still out there. Thirsty. Even if she doesn't know it. But it is only because of grace that we have found water in the first place. To be arrogant and criticize her for being an atheist (at this point) is not the compassion of God, who loves her. Pray for Katy. That her eyes are opened. That one day she too will drink and never thirst again.

[@manwitplanz9603]

Autry Welch This man speaks truth.

[@Alangiuroiu]

Autry Welch This is very Wise, Thank you.

[@autry33]

Alangiuroiu Your welcome my friend! Blessings!

[@jeremykipper4000]

Autry Welch AMEN

[@rotty1100]

Autry Welch hmm, I too understand where your coming from. I too think Cliffe was abit harsh when jumping on that subject of illustrating the point of how she was an atheist, I think he could of handle that situation more delicately towards the end of the video. But I also understand that Cliffe himself is dealing with alot of persecution of why he thinks the way that he thinks. Cliffe made alot of interesting points of how creation has an intelligent designer & she was still being obstinate of how life came by chance. I think that both Cliffe & Katy both need praying for so that Cliffe can have more patience when a person wants to seek his guidance & that Katy can one day see the light & know that there's a higher being that loves her & was a significant reason and not by chance of why she was talking to Cliffe about her life & that she can build upon that.

[@malcolmduanetaylor]

Amen cliffe good vid praise God!

[@Thebig_KC]

These philosophical truths are what young people are supposed to grow up learning. 😢

[@randomreviews1461]

Katie is at the doorstep I hope she can break through.

[@filips1218]

Life comes from Life *Jesus* saith unto him,*I am the way, the truth, and THE LIFE:* no man cometh unto the Father, but by *me*. Joh 14:6 *Jesus* said again unto them *I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the *light of LIFE.* Joh 8:12 *Jesus* said unto her, *I am the resurrection, and THE LIFE: he that believeth in me,* *though he were dead, yet shall he live* Joh 11:25 The next day John seeth *Jesus* coming unto him, and saith: *Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away THE SIN of the world.* For the *wages of sin is death*; but *the gift of God is eternal LIFE through Jesus Christ our Lord* Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these: Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, *that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.* In this was manifested the *love of God toward us, * because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, *that we might live through him.* Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. *For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever* *believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.* *For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world* *through him might be saved.* *He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned* *already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.*

[@tejendrachapagain1028]

Christ is logos absolute protocol of human heart

[@thabzamole7823]

"If everything was designed then we would live in a perfect planet" wow really!?? How does one asses if something is perfect if one is just a glob of chemical reaction, What would a perfect world look like? "We happened to be thrown on these planet that is perfect for life" Ohh I thought she implied that the planet wasn't perfect. Ok let me get the logic here if I'm driving a car and suddenly the gear box packs up, can I now conclude that this car wasn't designed because it broke down. It purely came by chance. Is this the type of reasoning we ought to follow??? Just curios I see what u mean Katy.....

[@1godonlyone119]

Without God, moral ideals could not be objective, and yet they are objective.

[@dinaoltadesse]

I wish cliff comes to my Jackson State university

[@timleblanc2676]

The way these kids do whatever they can to deny and then attempt to explain away the existence of God is mind boggling.

[@scottm4042]

Katie represents a worldview that begins by saying, there is no God. And then looks at life through that lens. Hopefully, she will see that there is overwhelming evidence to believe in God, and that the testimony of Jesus is reliable. He can be trusted.

[@robfield-n7v]

Numbers 6:24-26, Deuteronomy 28, Joshua 1:7-8 Matthew 6:9-15 & 12:31-32 Romans 10:9-13, 11 Corinthians 13:9-13,

[@TreenighetMaranata]

Some people are just so busy focusing on seeking faults and contradictions etc to show that Jesus is not who He claims to be! It is to miss even the search for evidence, that way you will not open yourself to the possibility that Jesus is God! We are free to make our choices in either wise ways, or ignorant and in constant denial of historical evidence! She is saying I suppose but, I suppose but, not a seeker, more of a true denier!

[@amanuelberhe4149]

I learned one thing from these young students, that they resist God so hard to take him out of the picture and replace him with farytale matter.

[@raymondgriffin9067]

Okay, I can see that many want a sign, or some sort of "proof" that God exists, although Cliff always corrects that with the assertion that we only have evidence. To me, one has to take this path, and make it truly experiential. In the search to find and understand our Reason to Be, and even God's Word about Creation, Humanity, and eternal life and purpose. Yes, from a Science perspective, there are ways to attempt to skirt around The Beginning of it all, and say that we have evolved from something else. The Bible tells us the story, so one must decide to accept or reject God's Word. I grew up not having any preconceived notions and was not a follower. If you were to ask me, I would have to say that God has called me out to follow and learn. Yes, someone else cannot have the same understanding that I believe that He has given me, so that is why each person must embark on his/her own journey to Truth. Philosophically, nothing would make any sense, outside of a Creator and a greater culmination of Humankind; of our Humanity. He grows us throughout our lifespan, which then produces a person who has grown and changed tremendously through those years and experiences. Sanctification is a process, such as is written in John 17:17, and has given reason to me as to how He changes Everything, especially since we know that The Word is God Himself. Go to Him and He will indeed present Himself to you. That is what I sincerely believe. As has been written, God did not design us as "automatons," merely to be hard-wired to obey and do the right things, for then we would be devoid of Free Will, and would not have the capacity to love freely. Love is always a choice, as is putting one's whole life in the very capable Hands of our Creator. His deeds, through our Advocate and Friend, who is Jesus Christ, keep me daily in awe of His Presence.

[@rotty1100]

+Raymond Griffin Very nicely put dude, I couldn't agree with you more & keep up the positive thinking mate :)

[@AddiDaddy]

Evolution is the god-of-the-gaps of scientism

[@teesaw8197]

I'm trying to see where the student is coming from. I think she wasn't being fair by not being open to the possibility of the idea that order exist and that it demands an intelligent mind.

[@BigIdeaSeeker]

I greatly appreciate that you are trying to see where she's coming from. Both sides have a tendency to dismiss the other without any intention to understand. It seems to me though that she was open, given that she listened and continued to clarify her points and ask for clarification. In the same way, I could say that Cliffe was being unfair in equating a watch or a building (which don't reproduce biologically) to life (which does reproduce biologically- and with variation). Also, the idea that evolution is "chance" may make sense to you as a believer, but that's not really how evolution works. Cliffe should know that. You can see that she tried to explain that, but it's not such an easy concept to communicate. Again, in a thread full of undeserved (and unChristianly) criticism, I appreciate that you try to understand the other. After all, isn't that what Christ did? Cheers.

[@Lillianachimp]

Apparently it applies to their issues but nothing else

[@CedarloreForge]

I love Cliffe. But man sometimes his done of voice and demeanor sound so condescending. :/ Maybe its just the way I'm perceiving him? I agree with all of his words. I just think his delivery could be so more tender and compassionate.

[@CedarloreForge]

Well put. ;) I see your points and definitely agree

[@audreydunham6625]

David DelaGardelle facebook.com/askcliffe make the time to understand what it is to be human?? for the future of you, your loved ones, the glory of God read, hear, understand words, pass on words , put words into action....... See More

[@a45williams]

It didn't appear that she felt intimidated. Cliffe seemed find to me.

[@fastfootedone]

20:44 and with these words, Katie blows apart the illusion she is intelligent lol

[@diversityhobbit]

Her reasons for not believing in God have more to do with morals than any lack of evidence for his existence.

[@christyler6234]

I like most of what Cliff has to say, but I think he capitulates to illogical thought at times. He argues against chance here, which I wholeheartedly agree with, but then claims that God is behind evolution? You can't have Genesis 1 & 2 and evolution; they fly in the face of one another. You don't get original sin if Adam wasn't a man created in God's image and you can't have the death that must take place for millions of years without sin. Semi-Pelagianists have to sacrifice part of the Gospel to bow down to human autonomy.

[@juaneato]

“There’s no design in the Universe.” Wow! Here’s the deal: She knows that God exists but had to rationalize her unbelief so she can remain a lesbian and not feel guilty.

[@dperkins01]

mighty christlike observation.

[@juaneato]

@@dperkins01 Mighty judgemental.

[@audreydunham6625]

how did evolution created her eyes, bones and come out of her Mother?????

[@levimalone4433]

Goodness everyone misunderstands his moral argument

[@paulmacarthur6948]

The world was made through Jesus Christ. John 1 and Jn 3.16 and Hebrews 1. In Jn 10.36 Jesus Christ claims to be God's son. Sin has deformed us but Jesus came to transform the body, soul, and the spirit. If a man has a son his son is also a man. If you don't love Jesus words now you won't have any place in heaven.

[@dperkins01]

Who lives ultimately. When did I have to use my worldview to feed my family?

[@IBenZik]

@12:28, she keeps running away from proof and does not stop long enough to see the evidence right in front of her face.

[@drew2fast489]

the way Katie looks I those pants is proof that God exists.

[@marke.8334]

If you all haven't seen a documentary called... It's worse than you think... By revelations of Jesus Christ ministries... I suggest you do... All praise and glory to the most high Jesus Christ

[@mackdmara]

Evolution, given it is true as we now know it, is a process. You have identified machinery, not why that machinery exists. Nor have you explained it as self creating.

[@dperkins01]

Just cliffe how god made the universe I don't know BS.

[@kingkingking8583]

Katy get choked at the end

[@kingkingking8583]

Ppl always say by chance the world came about but they always called on GOD the world is jacked up by ppl when they turn away from God.

[@xZippy]

"I don't know what absolute proof of God is, but I haven't seen any either." I'm an atheist myself, and even *I* get sick of hearing that crap...

[@keepthechange2811]

When people ask me for evidence and then I present it for them they dismiss it or run away eyes and ears covered. What qualifies as evidence? Well when peoples realities are based on their feelings nothing can qualify as evidence.

[@kingkingking8583]

They want God to come out the sky what amazes me when we do something wrong we say oh god look what i did wrong so funny

[@Brucev7]

-Katie, The Cambrian Explosion and DNA, has uprooted Darwin's Tree of Life.

[@SuperSlartibartfast]

Can you provide some evidence for your claim?

[@Brucev7]

SuperSlartibartfast "First, were all of geological history compressed into a twenty-four-hour clock, most of the distinct animal forms the world has ever known would appear suddenly within a two-minute time span at around the 21st hour. The abrupt and simultaneous appearance of this panoply of complex body plans signals an infusion of a vast amount of information, which can only rightly be attributed to an Intelligent Designer. Furthermore, Darwin theorized that every organism evolved from a common ancestor as a result of natural selection acting on random variations. The Cambrian Explosion points in precisely the opposite direction. Darwin said it best, “The distinctiveness of specific forms, and their not being blended together by innumerable transitional links-is a very obvious difficulty.” Finally, while Darwin predicted hundreds of thousands of transitional forms leading to the fossils of the Cambrian explosion, in actuality none appear. And since Darwin, the problem has only gotten worse. The fossil record has greatly expanded. Yet all known animal body plans appear in the form they possess today. In the words of Rudolf Raff, distinguished evolutionary biologist, “All of the known animal body plans seem to have appeared in the Cambrian Radiation.” Darwin’s candor is to be commended. “If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down.” This is precisely what has happened." Hank Hanegraaff

[@SuperSlartibartfast]

Brucev7 Nothing of what you've said has supported your original claim. First the Cambrian explosion is not as sudden as you make out but occured over a period of at least 20 million years. New evidence is coming to light of precambrain animals so the explosion may in the end be more of a flare up. Give the extreme age of Cambrian rocks it's not surprising that the fossil record is poor as most rocks of this age would have gont through some period of metamorphosis and any fossils destroyed. All this aside the lack of a perfect fossil record doesn't allow you to claim your chosen deity is responsible. You mentioned Darwins condor and it's a shame you couldn't have been more candid yourself with the quote which I'm sure you know is “If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed, which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down. But I can find no such case.”

[@Brucev7]

SuperSlartibartfast Here is more evidence-"Casey Luskin has already extensively rebutted the claim that Darwin's Doubt exaggerates the brevity of the Cambrian explosion. I have done the same in my reply to John Farrell published in National Review."Darwin's Doubt "affirms the widely-accepted figure among Cambrian paleontologists of about 10 million years for the main pulse of morphological innovation in the Cambrian period that paleontologists typically designate as 'the explosion.'" Casey Luskin, in his article, also documents that this figure is widely accepted among many Cambrian experts, including Valentine and Erwin, whom Marshall cites affirmatively in his review." you can read more here-www.evolutionnews.org/2013/10/more_on_small_s078251.html

[@SuperSlartibartfast]

Brucev7 A bit confused by your reply are you saying that Luskin from the Discovery Institute rebutts the claims by creationist Steven Meyer in Darwins Doubt.

[@deltasniper8796]

Not just that its common sense as well. Take God out of it same intelligent design. But the generations are taught non objective reason. So it points to God the on abosult eternal being.

[@bonnie43uk]

At 20:21 Cliffe says "An atheist is someone who says..I believe life comes from non life". No Sir, as an atheist I do not make that claim, my atheism is a lack of belief in God(s). You are putting words in our mouths. The origins of life are still being investigated, there is absolutely no shame in saying "We don't know". We understand *how* life works to a point by means of natural selection (evolution), but as for *how* that very first life form came into being itself, science is still trying to figure that out, we've made great strides in genetics and biology over the past 30 years or so, so imagine what the next 1,000 years or so will discover about ourselves, if we're still around. Exciting times :-) .. I think future generations will get a lot closer to unlocking that key to life's origins, each generation takes it's knowledge from the previous one and adds to it.

[@danielb6307]

He was talking about your entire worldview and don't pretend that's not what you believe, the top atheists that have written countless books believe that "nothing created something". They try to justify that claim and this only leads to contradictions. Who knows maybe there is some truth to it but I have much less faith to believe in something illogical like that. The evidence points to a creator!

[@bonnie43uk]

DAN Buster Hi Dan, thanks for your reply. There's certainly no pretence on my behalf. Show me *any* dictionary or thesaurus that claims or states "Atheism is the belief that nothing created something". I will be very surprised if you can find a dictionary that says that as a definition of atheism. These 'top atheists' that you mention are probably people like Sean Carrol or Laurence Krauss who study astro-physics, they deal in a branch of science that is extremely complicated..ie atoms and quarks, to you and me, when we say nothing, it means an absence of something, but 'nothing' to somebody in the world of quantam mechanics is an entirely different thing, .. that 'nothing' has properties that they can study and test. .. it's way beyond my grasp of understanding. I do not know what created the universe, maybe you think it was the Christian God, as opposed to all the other thousands of Gods out there, I'd rather be honest with myself and say I don't know.. but science is working on it :-)

[@danielb6307]

People all over the world redefine definitions, including atheist, who say there is no God. They make a truth claim and must be held to the same standards that they hold a theist. I agree with your definition regarding atheism, but many atheist don't say it that way. They affirm that there is no God. When I said your worldview I was talking about more than just what you call yourself. I am talking about how you live your life and what makes you come to the conclusions you come to regarding that life, but more than that also. An atheist who doesn't believe in God has to admit that there are little options for the origin of life and most would say that evolution happened by chance, essentially coming from non-life. This is said by countless atheist, many who are extremely well versed and more than just the two you mentioned. It is acceptable for Cliff to come to a reasonable conclusion like this since it comes from an atheists mouth whom he has debated. Also that quantum vacuum is not nothing and is full of life, it only begs the question about where did THAT come from.

[@danielb6307]

I would love to be able to say I don't know what's going to happen next, but I have more evidence as a thinking rational person in the same world you live in, to put my faith in a God rather than science. Science is a study of process, when it comes to origin we get into philosophy and I'm not going to trust what a scientist (that doesn't specialize in philosophy) says about that. As they always say though Apologetics never saved a soul, so this rhetoric is mainly for entertainment purposes, which I enjoy.

[@bonnie43uk]

DAN Buster Hi Dan, yes, you're absolutely free to believe in whatever you want, if that belief in a God gives you solace and comfort in life what not to like:-). I'm not sure if I agree with you about the limitations of science, it's science that overturned my original views on the bible, ..we have a good idea of how this planet originated, it's been around for billions of years, we understand a little more about the stars and the universe, we have a good grasp on human origins and how long homo sapiens have been around, we learn more about ourselves and our planet year on year. If I see any evidence of the supernatural, I'd change my view, but I've not seen anything to make me think otherwise, maybe you have?

[@201outlaw]

The Living God gives life. Very simple but why does the intelligence of atheist girl not grasp the idea that is being conveyed? Suppressing the truth, it seems so.

[@BigIdeaSeeker]

The intelligence of "atheist girl" may have grasped the idea, but the video is edited atvthatvpoint so we'll never know. A better question is, why didn't Cloffe who spends his life studying this stuff not grasp how evolution works (as evidences by his emphasis on chance)? Or, if he does understand evolution, then why did he choose to misrepresent it in such a way that benefits his argument at the expense of others present who may not understand evolution?

[@201outlaw]

BigIdeaSeeker It seems that Cliffe has a more reasonable answer than the lady. Then again if your an atheist I see how Cliffe reasoning is conflicting to an unbeliever.

[@TheStrawbeery]

BigIdeaSeeker Evolution is chance and that's all there is.Nothing concrete about evolution at all.In fact Evolution has been debunked over and over and over again.Evolution is theory nothing more

[@BigIdeaSeeker]

201outlaw So my original response really had nothing to do with whether Cliffe or "the lady" had a more reasonable answer. I would expect Cliffe to have a more reasonable answer, given that he's been doing this for years and has planned on how he will respond to every conceivable claim, and she, an undergrad, probably simply happened by on her lunch break. Whether I'm an atheist or not should have nothing to do with reason. None of this addresses the fact that Cliffe overtly misrepresented evolutionary theory. Given that the time and intention he's put into this, his seems the greater crime. I would say that whether I were a Christian or an atheist.

[@danielb6307]

Barrowand Tipler in their book The Anthropic Cosmological Principle. In this book, they list ten steps in the course of human evolution, each of which is so improbable that before it would have occurred the sun would have ceased to be a main sequence star and would have burned up the earth. They estimate the odds of the evolution of the human genome by chance to be on the order of 4-360 (110,000), a number which is so huge that to call it astronomical would be a wild understatement. In other words, if evolution did occur, it would have been a miracle, so that evolution is actually evidence for the existence of God! It requires at least the same amount of faith, in my opinion more faith, to believe evolution actually occurred. We may not observe a physical God but we do not observe evolution either.

[@777JesusChristisLord]

Yay I was view 8888

[@bonnie43uk]

I think I could argue that I'm more moral than God. As far as I'm aware, most Christians would say that unless I accept Jesus into my heart, I will go to hell for eternity. Does anybody know *for certain* what kind of a place hell is?. Now if you tell me it's a place where you are separated from God, I'm fine with that, so long as it's not a place where a sentient being is *in any way suffering*. As an atheist I believe when we die, that's it, it'll just be like sleeping, but the difference being, this time we won't wake up, for me, it's a nice thought, to sleep forever. Now you may say, what about people who have done bad things, don't they deserve justice?. Well, lets take a real bad person, Hitler. I would take no pleasure in thinking Hitler is in a bad place after he died, and suffering eternal torment, ultimately he was a human being, I could argue he suffered a lot during his final years when things were not going his way, he ended up like a hunted animal, he must have gone through immense turmoil, it's enough for me that he took his own life. As an atheist I believe it's immoral to put anyone through a kind of never ending loop where they suffer for eternity, and in that sense, my morals are better than Gods.

[@teesaw8197]

What sense? Your own sense?

[@teesaw8197]

Is that your opinion? Or is that a truth claim?

[@TheStrawbeery]

bonnie43uk I'm sorry i don't mean to cast aspersions on your comment about being more moral than God.But to do that you would have to be the absolute standard.And you're not. And i do know for certain what kind of place Hell is.It's a place of weeping and gnashing your teeth,the Eternal fire outer darkness.That the worm never dies,and the fires of hell is never quenched.In hell,people are not merely there is spirit,but in bodily form,their senses are greatly increased there is a foul odor screams,the heat is unbearable,the people is always thirsty and always hungry, you have no strength,no sleep,no mercy no water. I think you have an idea what hell is like now. Now that's fine if you believe that when you die you fall into a deep sleep that's your opinion.Not true but that's how you feel.Hitler will be burning in hell.and again coming from atheistic point of view you said "you believe that it's immoral to put anyone through a kind of never ending loop where they suffer for all eternity" but once again your'e not the moral standard God is.

[@bonnie43uk]

tee saw That's my opinion.

[@bonnie43uk]

TheStrawbeery I think your version of hell differs wildly from other Christians that I've spoken to. They've told me it's a separation of God, no mention of any gnashing of teeth, unbearable heat etc. How do you know this for certain?. Also, if God deems it morally ok to roast people forever etc, .. then I assert once again that my morals are better than his. I don't find it morally acceptable in any way whatsoever to torture a sentient being. Maybe you need to look up the definition of moral. For God to allow a place like Hell to exist is the exact opposite of moral. Yes, I truly believe 100% my moral standard is more dignified and honorable than the God you worship based on what you've told me about Hell. I say nobody should suffer eternal torment, your God says otherwise. Maybe you just haven't thought it through. Think about it Strawbeery. Do you have any conception of just how long eternity is?

[@nicks9359]

this guy's kind of annoying