Atheist Debates - Abraham and Isaac

[@ShaunJon]

Then the almighty God uttered to Isaac "it's just a prank bro".

[@CristianML40]

😄

[@DJ8017]

Christianity is not a moral system, it is an obedience system. Obedience is doing what you are told regardless of what is right Morality is doing what is right regardless of what you are told.

[@JoBo0209]

Viktor Tandofsky Joining a religion is a personal choice. Believing is not. You can’t choose whether or not you are convinced of something.

[@the_polish_prince8966]

@@JoBo0209 What do you mean joining a religion? If you believe all elements of that religion are true aren’t you just a part of that religion by default?

[@MiniEquine]

@@the_polish_prince8966 somebody could state that, in this moment they agree with literally everything of a particular religion but cannot guarantee that the religion or themselves will not change in the future and, because of that, cannot join the religion as a member. I think making a statement like that would require a level of introspection not usually seen among atheists never mind theists, but it’s possible

[@the_polish_prince8966]

@@MiniEquine If the definition of atheist changes in the coming centuries doesn’t affect whether you are an atheist now. It’s the same with religion.

[@fpcoleman57]

I have a notebook in which I write down important thoughts and quotes. I've added what you wrote above to that book. What you wrote is brilliant. Thanks Slevin.

[@typingcat]

-Hey, dad. -Hey, son. So, how is Tom? -He's fine. He just entered a high school. -Yeah, about that... I want you to kill Tom. -Oh, OK, dad. Whatever you say. Sara, where is my gun... -Haha, you ARE my son. That's enough. Save your bullet. What a loving, educational story...

[@toxications]

-Sure, no problem, gonna squeeze you in on next Friday if that's okay?

[@Sercil00]

I can't read the Isaac story without imagining God saying "Abraham. I wanna play a game."

[@bogdanvojnovic989]

In a Jigsaw manner

[@CristianML40]

😄

[@Nodrog666]

I've always had a problem with the story of Abraham and Isaac, even when I was still a Christian. Most people see it as a wonderful tale of Abraham's faith in God, but I always saw it from Isaac's perspective. Abraham was going to murder his son on an altar because an authority figure told him to. That disturbed me as a child. I thought, "would my parents kill me if God told them to?" I don't think charitably towards the story. It seems like an exercise in barbarity and a betrayal of trust in one's own father.

[@robertw2930]

+Strix Back then it was nothing to sacrifice your first child if you were a pagan they used to bury them under the house to keep evil spirits away Thank God Jesus came and saved us from live human sacrificing.!!!!!

[@deathwatch1980]

+Robert W right because being wrong about child sacrifice somehow makes human sacrifice (that somehow works but then not fully) a good thing the christian church, the only place where being a cannibal in normal

[@Nodrog666]

Robert W Christianity is founded on human sacrifice.

[@billschlafly4107]

+Strix Just because Pagans did bad things doesn't mean your nonsense story about Jesus is true. If your god was anything but a monster and real he would have helped the poor Pagans. He's Fing god and knows everything and can do everything. Why all the mad scientist experimenting? Free Will Free Will Free Will. BS! Humans had to learn the hard way.

[@bugsby4663]

+Robert W What peoples used to do this? From where are you getting your information? Did the child die naturally or was the child murdered? More information please.

[@naturealbums]

This Abraham myth has always been the one myth for me to exclude Islam, Christianity and Judaism as even remotely being possibly true. I've got two sons myself and if I had some weird voices expecting this sort of stuff from me I would go seek medical attention nothing else.

[@DocZom]

+necip perver Yes, but you are not a superstitious, ignorant, bronze age nomadic shepherd.

[@RandomPerson-fd9wu]

+DocZom ..........True, but that IS what the people of the bible are! And we are expected to live our modern, educated, technological, sheep & goat-less lives of today, by the standard of this bible!?!Pass..........I have more important things to live for, and better guides to live by.

[@Nanofuture87]

+necip perver Unfortunately, there _are_ people who hear weird voices telling them to kill their children... and they do it.

[@HENJAM48]

+Nanofuture87 and we call them mentally ill... As well we should.

[@champ8605]

we might say mentally ill, others prophet. tomayto, tomahto

[@YOSUP315]

This is the keystone of all Abrahamic faiths, and it's the most despicable act a parent could do. I think it follows rationally that all Abrahamic faiths, if they're honest, are morally bankrupt at their core.

[@MMasterDE]

+Xander Patten And it repeats once more for Christianity, but in that case they go through with it, no angel stopping it! :p

[@YOSUP315]

MMDE not to mention theophagy... mmmm, yummy zombie Jesus flesh!

[@MMasterDE]

***** Oh, I totally forgot Jephthah, whom kills his daughter for God.

[@YOSUP315]

MMDE forget about deals with the devil, it's deals with Yahweh where you really get screwed you over.

[@davidcampbell6246]

@AntiSocial Atheistcorrect crazy and stupid. Isn't that the point! This God, real or not did something that was out of the cultural norm. Just because you and I might think sacrificing children is cruel. that Culture did not. Abraham doesn't question because this would have been the norm. This story is nothing short of miraculous considering the audience at the time it was written or orally passed down! This God did not need a human sacrifice, this God was different. How can one argue against that.

[@SashaHasani1990]

I think it really makes our believer relatives really uncomfortable when we talk to them about Isaac. Because I discussed this with my relative some months back and He had to concede that yes, he would have to obey God. And I, the atheist, pretty much said to him: "I gotta be honest with you... if you attempt to do that, I will try to stop you." It really must make them uncomfortable to be in that position.

[@kathryngeeslin9509]

That is exactly why I have always thought he left the young men servants behind for the actual deed; even mere servants might have tried to stop him.

[@hiwayM9]

This story, while many others were curious to me, was the first step of my immunity to the programming of religion in my youth. I could not reconcile the notion, and it made me disgusted to look around at adults and peers alike who were complacent regarding the obvious atrocity. I remember sitting in "Sunday School" at about age 8 or 9 and suddenly having the epiphany that I was in the midst of something very wrong. That story was what caused me to question out loud many things.

[@jojobizarrelivingstone594]

Lucky you caught early. I have only been an athiest for 5 or so months

[@maconbacon]

Who'd thought bible studies could be this good

[@erictaylor5462]

Abraham to Issac. "Say 'baaaa"

[@johnbrophy597]

Amen! Thanks for another great sermon, brother Matt! :) This is one of the most powerful and lucid interpretations of this story I've ever heard.! It's almost as though the author included this story as a test of faith for the reader. "Let's see how good you are at rationalizing, shall we?"... In the early days of Yahweh worship there were certainly many other competing god models in circulation. People would claim that event X was caused by this god or that god, so knowing the character of a specific god was really important for targeting one's veneration appropriately. After all, no one wants to accidentally slight any of these vindictive gods. Understanding this background puts the Abraham and Isaac story in a new light... a damning new light! I just wonder what must have happened to the children of schizophrenics or other mentally challenged people who after learning this story heard similar voices to sacrifice their children, but somehow no angel came to stop them at the last minute. You know there had to be at least a few of these instances! Quite often the Bible tends to ignore the feelings of victims, from Isaac being sacrificed, to Lot's daughters being offered to the mob, to all of Job's family members who were wiped out on a bet with Satan. What about their free will, their freedom of choice? We still see echoes of this thinking today in the argument from evil. People will often say that God gave people free will so they can choose for themselves to do good or evil. Well, sure the child rapist exercised his free will,... but at the expense of the child's free will. The child didn't have the opportunity to choose. The only lesson I can get from this is that God must consider the rapist's and the murderer's free will as more important than the free will of their victims. Anyway, that's another topic.

[@keepdancingmaria]

+Booska Boo Actually, I think this IS this topic. I could be wrong.... No, how is this NOT this topic? You are SPOT ON here.

[@DocZom]

+Booska Boo The lesson is that God favors evil actors over good actors. He is willing to sacrifice the good people to allow the evil people to have their way. Sounds like an evil God to me. What do you think?

[@phillipmoore9012]

+Booska Boo Very good thinking! Thank you. Let me test how rational Abraham is; oh crap, he's an idiot! This is going to get worse.

[@star3catcherSEQUEL]

Because in Biblical times, wives and children are just the property of the patriarch of the family, of course there are no shits given about how they feel about what's done to them.

[@jeff61177]

So god learned this from Abraham, and killed Jephtah's daughter anyways.

[@keepdancingmaria]

+jeff61177 Daughter,  I suspect, being the operative term here?

[@MrMkd1202]

+jeff61177 anyways isn't a word. Anyway is a word.

[@keepdancingmaria]

Doctor Doom Well spotted! Hmm, jeff61177 you no longer have anything useful to contribute, as you decided to comment in vernacular. It did not change your point, or the perspicacity of your observation. But we can now safely discount the value of your perspective.

[@jeff61177]

+keepdancingmaria I am glad the the grammar police have discounted my opinion and chosen to ignore me. Now I can live my life free from people that get distracted easily, and discount people because of their cultural idiosyncrasies. Thank you.

[@keepdancingmaria]

jeff61177 LOL!! Confession time though....I actually AM one of the grammar police, because poor choices in grammar, spelling, punctuation, even vocabulary, can and will change the meaning of what was meant to be communicated. This hurts all, the writer/speaker and the readers/listeners. However, that is not what happened here. There could be no confusion of your point, and Doctor Doom did not have anything to say about your point, just an implication that your point was invalid because you used, not a grammar mistake, but a vernacular usage. Imagine Huck Finn having nothing to say to us simply because Mark Twain had him say cain't rather than can't! Doctor Doom knows this. He must just have been having a bad day. You make excellent points. I always enjoy reading you.

[@thetruthrover]

And yet when God wanted to destroy Sodom, Abram showed intense concern when he asked God to spare the entire city if just 10 righteous souls were found there; Even telling God that it would not be right for him to destroy the righteous along with the wicked. Why would he argue so intensely for strangers, and not bat an eyelash for his son?

[@waxberry4]

Maybe another guy wrote that part.

[@bluestarindustrialarts7712]

Awesome presentation Matt. One of the best so far that I have watched!

[@Octoberfurst]

Great video Matt! When I was growing up Christian the story of Abraham and Isaac always horrified me. The fact that Abraham didn't argue with God or say no was appalling to me. But everyone told me what a great story of faith this is! But I thought that this made both God and Abraham out to be psychopaths.

[@SeekerKC]

This video series is incredibly important, & right on time for my (almost) teenage daughter. Although not specifically geared towards younger viewers, the subjects happen to cover the very issues she finds herself debating with her friends; all of whom profess themselves to be Christian in one form or another. The information is much appreciated!

[@melissasahagunheathen2594]

great talk, by the way I like that picture behind you.

[@womanofthenang3210]

Just discovered these videos. Brilliant thanks.

[@JeffeyFF]

Thank you for your efforts Matt. Keep up the good work.

[@jasonthomas3626]

Matt Dillahunty is brilliant. I really enjoy watching his debates and videos. He has done his homework

[@paulj6662]

Going to heaven (or hell) was not part of the deal until the guys who made up the jesus story thought it would be a good seller.

[@stonesthrow420]

Thank you Matt for bringing these biblical stories into a well needed light of understanding and clarity...especially when one is trying to decide whether these things actual took place or is it just wild story telling. I am also an Ex-Fundamental Baptist and have always had so many questions about these biblical stories that just don't make sense. I find your videos very educational as well as The Atheist Experience show. I have a request, if you have time.....could you can do a presentation on "The Garden Of Eden" In Genesis? This is basically how I see it.... If you had 2 children that you loved very much, and made them an exotic playroom, and told them you can play with every toy in the room...except for this fully loaded 44 Magnum, of which I'm going to place right here in the middle of the room on the floor. If you touch it, you'll probably die. Oh, also Im going to allow this very persuasive, dangerous individual full access to your room, that has nothing but evil intentions toward you. Sound good? Great....ok see ya'll later!! Now, how in the world could this scenario possibly NOT end in complete disaster? This just sounds insane, yet..its essentially what happened in Genesis. Any ideas?

[@TReeves80013]

Everyone seems happy Isaac was spared... but what about the innocent ram? Seriously, a god demanding blood sacrifice of ANY living creature simply for the sake of appeasing that god's ego is an immoral, psychotic lunatic unworthy of respect let alone worship.

[@MikeTall88]

No to mention, god created that one out of thin air or teleported it there, only to be killed and burned. God can create the meat and burn it himself, can He not? yes, so it's death he wants and he wants man to kill for him. Psychopaths starts with small animals they say..

[@Octoberfurst]

+SweetLiberty01 I agree. I have no idea why God is so big on the idea of killing an innocent creature as a "sacrifice" to him. What's the point of the bloodshed? Is it the only thing that makes him happy? In the Bible it states that God can't forgive unless there is a blood sacrifice. Why can't he just forgive. Of course Christians now say that Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice and now we don't need to kill innocent animals anymore. But the whole idea of a blood sacrifice is appalling and makes God out to be a psychopath.

[@DocZom]

+SweetLiberty01 Hey, Yahweh loves the smell of burnt flesh. Accept it. We love what we love, even when we are gods.

[@corbert13]

+DocZom That God likes his meat well done is evidence against his divinity. The true lesson here is keep Yahweh away from the bbq - he is a lousy cook.

[@sanmcnellis94]

A sweet savor yo yawah's nostrols. Praise god!

[@emagee7864]

This was posted a while ago but still very good reasoning to listen to. It's amazing how many "patches" or bible interpretation fixes are required. Most of my faithful following friends don't even know about the multitude of bible inequities. Many lack critical thinking skills. Also, many are in denial of the patchwork needed to square the bible with reason and logic. Matt, good work.

[@TorianTammas]

Keep up your good work, thanks!

[@lw3764]

Hey Matt just wanted to say your series is super interesting, keep up the good work!

[@godlesshelp8503]

Who needs a devil when you have a great god like that ...

[@trishayamada807]

I do believe the devil didn’t commit genocide. I think he’s better than the god, but seeing as both aren’t real.....

[@ionelmarele8368]

Thanks Matt ,always a calm and clear voice of rationality

[@nicholasharvey4393]

This series is the best Bible Study I have ever seen. Especially compared to our Life Orientation - Biblical lessons the Christian school I attend, where this story was spun as a powerful message of trusting God.

[@Ikonicre_Moonshield]

I couldn't stop chuckling everytime "And Abraham said: Here I am." came up.

[@redshiftexperiment]

another great video! keep up the great work! I really enjoy these!

[@richardho8283]

I thank you for your devotion and enthusiasm for sharing your profound understanding. 🤝👏👍👌

[@psicologamarcelacollado5863]

Brilliant argumentation. Loved it. Thanks!

[@Gumikrukon]

Thanks Matt! :D

[@honeysucklecat]

Dang good vid

[@Eliot451]

I found this video to be very useful. Thank you for posting it.

[@jesussavedrjm6818]

Eliot451 This guy has no biblical knowledge.

[@fernandezmaintenance1984]

Thanks matt,I'm a big fan,I like how you break it down

[@SamGirgenti]

please don't stop making these videos.

[@MobyDicksWife]

Hi Sayuas! Great job in derailing the debate. Get people talking about how much Matt makes from his videos so as to completely stop them from discussing the Abraham moral problem. The point is that Abraham had no problem in believing that his god could and would demand human sacrifice. The point is that what god wanted in the story was to check on Abraham's total surrender of his feelings and moral sense to god, so much so that instead of saying "F-off, that is a totally immoral request." Abraham says "Whatever god commands must be moral". That is a level of control every tyrant in history has aspired to.

[@cghkjhjkhjhvfghc]

10K's underpaid for the services Matt's rendering. That's awesome that he is getting enough to do it full time. Specially since it's caused him problems getting a conventional job. Go Matt!!! Shot for 20 bro.

[@philipinchina]

Thanks again Matt.

[@Ironysandwich]

"How can you tell which one's God and which one's Satan?" I use the Martin Luther method. If he sounds in any way logical or reasonable than he's clearly Satan.

[@grejen711]

Thank you for this analysis of that story. When I read it, it did not occur to me to wonder how Abraham even knew it was his Lord asking this of him. I think it's despicable to love this God. @ 26:00 LOLs Satan seems to be the much more lovable character! I've been thinking for a while now since reading most of the Bible (still working through the Ezekiel) that the original intent of these stories was to warn people against blind obedience and respect for those who would name themselves 'your one true god', no matter their shows of power.

[@nancymc]

Unbelievable, you really know the Bible, does not sound good, nothing to believe. I feel numb, so many years of believing for nothing. Thank you again. I am learning so much from you

[@jesussavedrjm6818]

Clara smith My friend This man has no clue of scripture. I wish to explain truth to you.

[@stylis666]

@@jesussavedrjm6818 You made the assertion that a man who read, studied and preached the bible for decades has no clue about the bible read, studied and preached for decades. That's a bold assertion. Care to back that up with facts? You wish to explain "truth". Give it a shot, but do it without making assertions you can't back up. Start with explaining how testing Abraham with asking him to kill his son isn't cruel and unusual and his son would not be traumatized afterwards and how their bond isn't impacted negatively after Isaac saw his father with a knife above him, obeying voices in his head instead of thinking for himself.

[@jesussavedrjm6818]

@@stylis666 I don't think you have watched him for long. He was not a preacher. Went to school a bit trying to convince himself but time in the navy solidified his atheism. I have listened to him and he fails to even describe simple Christian truths. So no I do not trust that he was ever genuine nor well schooled or converted at any time

[@jesussavedrjm6818]

@@stylis666 You fail to grasp the account of abraham. 1. Test was not that he would kill his son... It was to trust the promise that he would make him father of a great nation through isaac.... He trusted that God even if his son died would bring him back to fulfill his word... Now look at the account.... The father (abraham) led the son up the mountain who carried the wood on his back for the sacrifice.....to where it is called the lord will provide.... What was given? A ram tangle in thorns around its head...... Now does that sound familiar.......yep It was a picture of what jesus would do showing that GOD wishes to give mercy and does not want our sacrifice. It shows he loves so much that he sacrifices his own son to satisfy justice against sin in the fleshly body of jesus thereby fulfilling justice an wrath so that love grace and mercy may be given to those who humble themself before him....

[@jesussavedrjm6818]

@@stylis666 Fyi Isaac willingly went........

[@jared_per]

"he knows the number of hairs on my head" - I think I can accomplish such a feat too. It's 0. ;)

[@sad_doggo2504]

Not just Isaac, but Abraham was also deeply traumatized by this. S. Kierkegaard's "Fear and Trembling" goes into this: all of Abraham's potential thoughts, emotions, reactions. But just think, if you had been promised a child all your life, you finally had one, you loved him with all your being, and an all-powerful deity who had total power in your life commanded you to destroy him. No way you would be normal after this, no matter the outcome.

[@tribequest9]

There is a rabbi that says it seems to him that Isaac was actually sacrificed but the story changed later. My personal take on the whole thing is the rabbi's of a later time invented this story so that they wouldn't sacrifice their children in order to get favors from God. You have to look at the historical context of the fact that the tribes were never really united very well and the presence of so many other varying tribes and people including the Egyptians and Syrians. They needed to bring their numbers up and think this story helped that.

[@reikirainbowhandspawsmore7103]

I quit sunday school at aged 8 over this very story. I was on board with all the nice cherry picked bits, then this was told and my hand shot up. I said God and Abraham are wrong and asked how can this be a test of faith its a test for if you are mental. Got told the same, it was never gunna happen, it was just to see how faithful he was to God. I argued it saying I would never do it to a kid of mine and dont think my parents will either. I was shut down and told to take 5 minutes in the corridor to calm down, I walked out and went 2 mikes across the field's to home, faith smashed in a instant and never returned. I was a Athiest, before I even knew what it was :P

[@exmormonroverpaula2319]

Sue Louise Ricketts, wow! I guess I wasn't nearly as smart as you. It took me a lot longer than that to get out of the church.

[@robotaholic]

haha it doesn't take a god to know the number of hairs on Matt's head 16:55 lol

[@annemac8175]

yep big baldy chrome dome and an idiot to boot! lol

[@neonet310]

whats ur iq

[@annemac8175]

@L M lol

[@princesskimo2821]

Matt Dillahunty is a genius. Keep making more analyzing videos like this and please can you also compare islam with christianity even more, that would be helpful for both muslims and christians. Best wishes, from Pakistan.

[@bobloblaw7667]

I love this video, I've heard from Pentecostal people that God did this whole thing not only to test Abrahams faith but also so it could be a "type and shadow" of the crucifixion of Jesus story. I never asked what all they meant by that, it would seem kind of pointless and cruel to torture people just to have a vague story that isn't really prophetic.

[@atheistmommy3710]

Every single Atheist Experience video I put under my "Matt Dillahunty the best" list. He is brilliant!

[@akl561]

Good video, but I think the most important point that can be made about the story is how evolution applies to religion. The religion that survived was the one that demanded the most extreme obedience from its followers. The other religions from that era are mostly long gone.

[@roberthill1166]

+akl561 Please then explain the existence of ISIS and southern Baptists among others

[@akl561]

+Robert Hill I don't understand the question. Are you saying ISIS does not demand obedience?

[@expaddler]

It seems to me that the creation myth serves the purpose of answering some basic questions for our ancestors from a few thousand years ago. Where did we come from? Why do we have to work? Why is childbirth so painful? Etc... The myth of Abraham and Isaac may have answered a question too. Why don't we sacrifice our children any more?

[@felicciasc]

Danny Taylor I like this ideas

[@pscyking]

I've been an atheist for almost a decade now, and I can't believe I've never revisited the story of Isaac or given it proper thought. Especially since I agree that it is the most indefensible and damning argument against the notion of a benevolent god.

[@toniogro]

The greatest thing that came out from the Isaac/Abraham story is the Binding of Isaac game, it's awesome :D

[@AAwildeone]

One of the greatest religious philosophers of all time does in fact argue that Abraham KNEW as fact that God would not allow Isaac to be sacrificed, and as a "knight of faith" you must follow that voice in your head to the penultimate end. The GREATEST mind ever to write on this particular story is Kierkegaard in Fear and Trembling. Of course, Kierkegaard does not get beyond the irony of his own irony, but as a rhetorical expostionist and artistic expressionist he is SUPREME! my question for philosophy is, Is it only the True SUBJECTIVE that can morally have a mind, let alone change it?

[@AAwildeone]

Actually he does not "cover this"...Kierkegaard's argument is IN FACT much more inticate and nuanced than anything "MATT" has to say here....

[@ricardoalmeida4719]

Thank you for this video Matt. Regarding the Abraham and Isaac story, what do you think about the argument that christians use saying something like this: Abraham was tested and understood how hard it can be to sacrifice his own child (the most important person in the world for a loving father) and then comparing this to God sacrificing his own child (jesus) in the new testament? I'm sorry if I wasn't too clear. Greetings from Germany.

[@kevincrady2831]

Then there's Genesis 22:19, the ending verse of the story: "So Abraham returned unto his young men, and they rose up and went together to Beersheba; and Abraham dwelt at Beersheba." Abraham returns...without Isaac. This is arguably an indication that the original version of the story has Abraham actually sacrificing Isaac, and that the part where Isaac is spared and a ram sacrificed in his place was added later.

[@tperson8347]

Not only does the bible make me sick (as a christian and now as an atheist), I've found that a good chunk of the bible is god flexing his narcissism powers and overtly screaming for attention. I keep seeing and hearing, "TELL ME YOU LOVE ME!!" popping out of the pages and out of the songs & stories. As a christian, I tried loving god, but could never get past the horrible, attrocious character that was served up by adoring "fans". As a christian child, I NEVER loved god no matter how hard I tried. I was never much for imaginary friends anyway. I absolutely love this series Thank you so much for making them :)

[@Bryan198026]

I'm reminded of the short story Abraham's Excellent Adventure, which sets the biblical Abraham story in modern America, only you don't necessary realize that until the Angel of the Lord comes in and turns out to be some guy who just happens to stumble upon the scene. But this is one of the biggest proofs in my mind that the Abrahamic god, even if he existed, would not be worthy of my worship.

[@joeturner1597]

This subject reminded me of Toranaga ordering his son to kill his family as a test of loyalty. I landed up spending an hour reading an analysis of Shogun.

[@John_Bradbury]

I've heard an interpretation that this story is trying to demonstrate that God does not need a child sacrifice. In some polytheistic religions child sacrifice was part of their liturgy and this story is an attempt to stop that practice for those who converted to Judaism and continued to sacrifice children.

[@alenrae1370]

When I was a Christian this story was to show us that nothing was to be above God, not even your own child. If God told you to sacrifice your only child, you did it. I have never had it explained to me any other way.

[@Nocturnalux]

One of the most profound yet very, very odd take on the Abraham and Isaac story is Kierkegaard's Fear and Trembling. The general gist is that true faith requires a certain detachment from what we normally perceive as morality. It is almost an ode to batshit insanity, really, but of course written beautifully and in a very oblique manner.

[@John-iy5bf]

I always thought the phrase, "god fearing" was confusing. Is it better to be feared or respected? If I love you, why would I want you to fear me?

[@nontheistdavid]

I read that there are other writings that say Issac did not come down from the hill implying that he was sacrificed.

[@MrSomnus2001]

As I've been reading my way through the Bible, I feel as though the stories of the Genesis through Judges were written by a culture that still practiced human sacrifice, but it was starting to fall out of favor. The narratives read as though they were feeling just uncomfortable enough with it to try and obscure and/or downplay it in their writings, but it was still too much a part of their belief system to write out entirely.

[@obadiahking]

+Brian Gibson I think that you are correct. You even see that nice passage in Ezekiel 20 where god actually admits that he gave commands for the sacrifice of the first born (25 Moreover I gave them statutes that were not good and ordinances by which they could not have life; 26 and I defiled them through their very gifts in making them offer by fire all their first-born, that I might horrify them; I did it that they might know that I am the Lord.)

[@star3catcherSEQUEL]

+Brian Gibson Hmmm, definitely interesting. Yeah, I can see where you're coming from with that.

[@Olive_O_Sudden]

+Brian Gibson And they didn't write it out of their belief entirely -- they simply made the sacrifice non-lethal (in most cases) in the form of foreskin removal. The only reason Christianity doesn't require male genital skin excision is because the Jews who were the early Christians discovered it was significantly easier to win converts among the Gentiles if they allowed them to keep their foreskins.

[@ginoharding2902]

+InfiniteSkeptic 60 sure, as soon as god overcomes his fear of mortals and shows up.

[@MobyDicksWife]

+human powered machine I completely agree, and the shadow of human sacrifice echoes right though Christian belief and practice. I am not a fan of either Islam or Christianity. In my view they are both death cults, but Christianity goes further by centering the entire religion on a human sacrifice. (And ritual cannibalism AKA the Mass.) It makes one wonder what was going on in the Hebrew "high places" of worship three thousand years ago.

[@erictaylor5462]

24:00 Ask these people, "If God demanded you kill your children would you do it?" They are, of course, bound to say yes, but this question is much more fun to ask if you first ask, If a person who has killed his family claims God told him to do it, should that person be excused for the crime?" The will of course be bound to say "Of course not." If you then post the first question to them, then ask if they should be excused.....

[@Acidmix17]

What's interesting is that in God's commandment it states thou shall not kill....I can't imagine God changing his kind he's omnipotent

[@erictaylor5462]

@@Acidmix17 It's funny how often that commandment is violated in the Bible. Perhaps it should have been "Thou shalt not kill unless..." I loved the mistake when the printed a Bible with one word missing. "Thou shalt commit adulatory." Ooops. Not quite as bad as when a typo caused Canada to legalize cannibalisms when they were trying to legalize cannabis. Actually this might have saved some trouble down the line. If cannibalism and cannabis were both legal, two birds one stone.

[@mykhalable9433]

16:55 Matt, *EVERYONE* knows how many hairs are on your head!

[@harveywabbit9541]

The mountain top where Abraham (as Saturn) took Isaac (as Jupiter) has several names. It was called a golden mountain (gold for the sun) that is found at the center of the universe. It was the abode of all of the gods. A few names are Moriah, Moor, Meru, Moreb, Marwah, and Olympus. This is the same mountain top that the Eagle (Genesis 9:14) took Moses. The eagle in this story is the constellation Aquilla. Remember the gold that was used to build Solomon's temple, represents the sun. Solomon is another name for the sun, repeated three times. The biblical Cyrus is aka Surya the sun.

[@harveywabbit9541]

Jupiter was the only begotten son of Saturn. Ishmael represent the winter sun (libra thru Pisces) and Isaac represents the summer sun (Aries thru Virgo).

[@DJHastingsFeverPitch]

Okay, here's a potential response to that. God was testing whether Abraham would have faith that God would ultimately act consistent to his character (i.e. prevent the sacrifice) even if an order that came from him seemed to conflict with his character.

[@joeturner1597]

It was customary for Canaanites, later known as Phoenicians, to sacrifice their first born sons to Baal. This story illustrates where some elements of the Israelites really came from.

[@--GOAT]

That angel is CLEARLY Jeffrey

[@jmtnvalley]

If god is so powerful, why doesn't he just smite the devil? Ah, not so powerful. That's why I really enjoy reading "Job: A Comedy of Justice" by Heinlein. Matt, excellent discussion of this tale.

[@pd4165]

+jmtnvalley God can, by definition, kill the devil. If 'he' can't then he's not almighty. What more needs to be said?

[@mapleleaf0]

+jmtnvalley I know, right?! I think the idea is that leaving the Devil in place allows for evil in the world which for some reason is required for free will. Apparently free will, in a world created by God, can't involve choices between good options; it has to be choices between good and bad. Yeah, so then we're supposed to be all impressed when he finally conquers the Devil in the end. How is it impressive that he finally does it then when he could have all along? And how are we so smart to know he's going to do this when the Devil doesn't seem to know ... yet he can read our minds, give us bad ideas, and cause general havoc. The book you mention sounds interesting.

[@jmtnvalley]

Maple Leaf I guess we cannot know the mind of God. Well, then why read the Bible? If we cannot know the mind of God, the Bible means nothing.

[@PedanticPig]

Ever seen the video game The Binding of Isaac? It's sort of an examination into how we'd react to this story in the modern day, and how the effect of such strong religious beliefs can affect a child.

[@robertpresley1503]

"he can't make a burrito so hot that he can't eat it". That's a new one.

[@Amigo21189]

There are actually quite a lot of situations depicted in the Bible where the right answer is, "pound sand." I may have missed it, but it seems to me that in exactly none of them does the character with the opportunity to say so actually do it.

[@maartenjohannes]

All apologists in response to this video: "But he stopped it". Their faith forbids them from acknowledging that that's actually besides the point.

[@straubdavid9]

Once you have an Omni-everything deity - what is the point of religion. Religion, in my mind is proof that you don't really believe in an Omni-everything god. What is even the purpose of prayer - who would you be informing?

[@Binerexis]

+David Straub I'd say that in those cases, it's the fear of divine punishment which makes people pray. It could also be argued, however, that a god fitting that description would already know if you were going to be punished or not so praying wouldn't change much of that.

[@straubdavid9]

Binerexis That being my point exactly.

[@danielretzloff5653]

+David Straub Well my folks would say praying is for person doing it. An expression of love to the dude in the sky. It would be your connection to something that is an Omni in your terms. Not agreeing but praying kind of seems like a candle in front of a spot light to me in the problems department.

[@youweechube]

+Daniel Retzloff and that could be true for your folks, however most people i see praying are asking for something, be it for someones health or after a disaster so people can be granted some kind of aid or to get out of s tough personal situation. I can only interpret such prayers as the person attempting to inform or change gods mind.

[@straubdavid9]

youweechube And what has been the result of any of this praying? There is an axiom about doing "something (won't say what it is) in one hand, and praying in the other - to see which hand fills up the fastest! It's rude, but it gets to the point.

[@elkeism]

Hint: child sacrifice was common: why would a god stoop to the level of heathens? there's nuance given the context you haven't considered: we see that Sara's bareness has tormented her with a double portion of sorrow: no joys of motherhood PLUS GRANDMOTHERHOOD: THEN finally, she conceives in and of it self a "miracle" only to have it taken by the people they found comfort in numbers with

[@CatDaddyGuitar]

Another example of the conditional love of god that follows the "to love me is to obey me" context. An omniscient being doesn't need to manipulate people into obedience to sadistically bring trauma to them just to prove...what?

[@nitehawk86]

17:29 Hey wait, I can make a burrito so hot that I can't eat it. Does this mean I am more powerful than god?

[@daniiiakasha4711]

Plot twist: the angel that stopped him was actually Jeffrey.

[@NielMalan]

The fact that a ram was offered instead of Isaac makes no difference to the immortality of the test: if there was no ram, and Abraham went ahead and sacrificed Isaac, God could have given Abraham a new son, thereby keeping his covenant. This is exactly what he did to Job.

[@jesuiscequejesuis2267]

16:45 I find it hard to accept that any god could know how many hairs were on your head when you were a kid . But I'd be less amazed that He could make an accurate guess now ;) This story of Abraham and Isaac has had me thinking for decades.

[@exilfromsanity]

The real point of the story for me has always been that Abraham was apparently not surprised or shocked that god would tell him to kill his son. Evidently he thought it was perfectly natural for god to command such a thing.

[@jmm1233]

so basically the story is saying the angels are more moral then god , kind of make sense if account the story of raziel

[@heavymeddle28]

I have read the bible maybe 4-5 times in my 50 years. 2-3 times really tried to take it in but its so damn many characters, sons and daughters that I still can't remember who or what did what. FYI, I'm an atheist. Just want to know what it's all about. Still don't understand how it's possible to think it's real in any way. But... I still haven't got the full grip around it. Especially the OT

[@DMTFLTV]

do you watch Cenk Uygur? you were my favorite orator from 2010-2015 and the only reason you're now my number two favorite is because of Cenk. you two should team up. thank you for a great oration here once again.

[@Matlalcueitl]

+DMT/•/TV Cenk a great orator? Only as promotor of islam.

[@jollyandwaylo]

+Amun-Ra Cenk is an atheist, he doesn't promote religion at all.

[@maconbacon]

+jollyandwaylo but he sure does defend muslins with a blind faith, even when the mass rape, TYT is a double standard extremely biased NotANews channel

[@Animuldok]

+DMT/•/TV Cenk is an idiot.

[@Matlalcueitl]

jollyandwaylo He is biased because of his family.

[@Polite_Cat]

hahahah 9:40 had me laughing out loud, that was so god damn funny

[@LukeSumIpsePatremTe]

Humans have astonishing ability to close eyes, when presented with critical information. Not only that, but when quoting 1 Samuel 15:2-3 for example, people are willing to say, that the murders were morally okay in their opinion. I don't understand.

[@kevinlitton1399]

It's surprising to see that Matt doesn't simply mention the story of jeptha sacrificing his daughter. It pretty much dismisses all the speculative apologetics about the Abraham/Isaac story.

[@randomatheist167]

This makes me want to watch the movie Year One.

[@jonathancangelosi2439]

I would understand if God commanded Abraham to give up some of his material possessions, but we're talking about a human life here. God treated Isaac as a means to an end (testing Abraham), which is not loving. If God is truly worthy of worship, he must treat everyone as ends in themselves.

[@harveywabbit9541]

Ishmael is the firstborn and is a "winter" sun symbol, Isaac is the second born and is the "summer" sun symbol. Summer is favored over winter. Ishmael and Isaac are the same sun. Sarah at age 75 = 7 + 5 = 12 constellations/months or one year. The 7 is the 7 constellations/months from the spring equinox. The 5 is the remaining "winter" months. The number 13, in the bible, will usually refer to the lunar year of 13 moon cycles which is close to one solar year. The solar-lunar year is presented as thirty days per month and 360 days. The Golden Ram that Abraham sacrificed is the Ram or constellation Aries. As winter moves in, the Ram Aries falls head first into the thicket. Thicket or thorns, in the bible, means winter. The religious year begins at the spring equinox and ends there. The Sarah, that gets pregnant, is Virgo at the spring equinox. Hagar gets pregnant at the autumn equinox, as the sun descends into Egypt (winter). Hagar and Sarah are one as the constellation Virgo.

[@pbziegler]

As a young boy who's Jewish parents wanted me to know about my heritage, I was sent to Sunday school. We learned Bible stories. I was aabout 10 or 11. When we learned this story about god testing Abraham I was done with religion, god, and all the rest. If that was god he was a total A hole. Over time i simply decided there wasn't sufficient good evidence for believing there was a god. End of that story. Love watching the Atheist Experience for the laughs.

[@Steveman27]

Can you imagine how you would feel if you would have been Isaac in that situation, and how awkward things would be between you Abraham, and especially between you and God? Abraham should have told God no, or just never tricked Isaac into getting into that situation, but instead just went to go get a ram and sacrifice that instead.

[@keepdancingmaria]

"Gee Thanks Dad."

[@DracoAdrian23]

Hey Matt, you the Koran does not mention the name of the son. There for you only asuming it is Ishmael?