Atheist Debates - Lot's wife and daughters

[@bg6b7bft]

I love how they piss about for so long about finding ten good men, and then spend no time at all looking for ten good men. And good women don't count for anything.

[@ricshome1]

When I was old enough to understand this, my thoughts were that god had issues with homosexuality but not with Lot offering his daughters to be gang rape and then incest.

[@AssassinoJake]

And issues with lots wife turning around.

[@SSecularScholar]

Around the Dead Sea are pillars of salt. So the story of Lot’s wife is like that of Persephone and Hades, a mythological tale to explain a natural phenomenon.

[@pdutube]

I've read the same thing. It sounds like the author of Genesis was trying to work in the nature of their physical environment with the sociological struggles of the Israelites. What we consider shocking in terms of incest and genocide were normal occurrences back then. Today adherents want to praise the same sky-wizard but whitewash its past behavior because of some sort of "new covenant". Don't they realize it's all still happening and the sky-wizard is demonstrably fine with it?

[@Tulkas219]

SSecularScholar - When I was on holiday in Israel I went to the Ein Gedi Nature Reserve to a spa place where you float in the Dead Sea and cover yourself in healing mud etc. On the way back the tour guide pointed to a particular salt pillar and stated that that was actually Lot's wife, at least according to local tradition. So yeah either local folklore or checkmate atheists! depending on your point of view. Me, I pointed to the next pillar and said "So who is that then?" I didn't get a reply.

[@pdutube]

@@Tulkas219 Maybe Lot didn't have a wife but walked around talking to pillars of salt? Mommy, why is that man talking to the rocks? Don't stare sweetheart, his name is Lot, just keep away from him!

[@AdmiralBison]

@@pdutube LOL. Than you you know the question is going be raised "who did Lot of have his daughters with?" Than again, the Bible really doesn't put much history and stock on women, since they are mostly narrated as baby making machines and nothing else.

[@optimusprime5199]

They say they have found sodom and Gomorrah

[@thehusk5122]

As soon as you mentioned the Moabites and Amorites, it suddenly clicked into place. Propaganda is pretty ancient.

[@marianomazzieri6560]

The story sounds to me like Abraham, Lot and 3 other buddies conspiring a really intricate plot to help Lot getting rid of his wife :P

[@CAPSLOCKPUNDIT]

Later commentaries, like the one written by Ezekiel, sought to rescue this tale from its apparent brutality by reframing it as a lesson to be kind to strangers. So why not the same for this version? For all we know, the story originated as an excuse to explain Lot's mysterious appearance in a new town sans wife, with pregnant daughters and no husbands. And oh BTW, the trivial matter of a couple of villages burned to the ground in his wake (Answer: Goddidit, so STFU!).

[@davidsmith-uw2ci]

Thats way more plausible than their BS they believe

[@domiro8156]

Your version makes SO much more sense!!!!!!!

[@runeaanderaa6840]

Maybe she was a bit salty in the first place.

[@GameLeaderR]

Also he wanted to sleep with his daughters. The daughter said there was No other men in the world bit only those cities were destroyed so maybe Lot wasn't totally honest with the girls to make them feel like there was no other choice.

[@tach5884]

If a guy got his daughters pregnant this is how he would tell the story. It only happened once(each), it was their idea, there was alcohol involved... Alternate hypothesis: This is the kind of hentai that's popular when time travel is invented.

[@ersgtr3421]

Same goes for the person who impregnated Mary.

[@lisagilbert8497]

Got two girls pregnant on the same night and the first time . He totally had no fault in it . This is miraculous in itself from a woman that has tried to conceive . These girls must have been masters of NFP . Also he must have been a total master and incredible in his age at keeping it up .

[@professorsypher6174]

I think Lot killed his wife and knocked up his two daughters during his escape from a burning city, and when everybody in Zor asked him what happened, he came up with that story and they all believed him.

[@sypherthe297th2]

Or the whole thing is fiction and there never was a Lot. Either way there is some lying involved.

[@soul4saken]

This whole story blew my mind as a kid. I remember being appalled, and I asked why this ok. My father tried to explain it to me. No amount of apologetics ever made it sit well with me. It was one of the things which began cracking my sense of the bible being good and God being fair.

[@ca7842]

Same for me

[@cuzned1375]

This is the bit that gets me. The older girl says to her sister, “...there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth...” WHY DOES SHE THINK THAT?? Yes, their town was just destroyed. But they surely knew about the town of Zoar. And they surely knew about Abraham, *Lot’s uncle* . So there’s no way they thought their father was the last man on earth. It’s just the most asinine story, literally from the very beginning.

[@mrmaat]

Because this is a parallel story to Noah’s flood. Lots of the details are similar, like Noah and Lot both getting drunk. Genesis is a collection of edited myths, and sometimes little continuity errors for by the redactors.

[@apollyonkatastrefia1586]

That verse where Lot offers his daughters to the crowd has bothered me since I was a small christian.

[@xwing2417]

Especially if the default assumption is that Lot is righteous. He clearly isn't, but only after we take off our rose tinted Bible glasses.

[@Fluffykeith]

What really gets me is how Lot, the good and righteous man, offers his daughters to the mob because it would be “wicked” for the mob to abuse his Male guests. But not his daughters apparently. And he’s considered a symbol of righteousness. Offering his daughters up to the mob is presented as the right thing to do.

[@Fluffykeith]

@Eastern fence Lizard According to the story, a good and righteous man would.

[@dancinswords]

"Lot and his kids couldn't even turn around to look at her, or else they too might be turned into pillars of who-knows-what spice."

[@question3147]

Lot's wife: Uses her free will to look in the direction she wants to. God: So you have chosen... death!

[@harveywabbit9541]

When Lot arrived at Zoar, the Sun had risen upon the earth," i.e., it was the beginning of summer/Aries thru Pisces (Gen. 19.23). It was then the Lord overthrew the cities of Sodom (Scoropio thru Pisces) - winter was succeeded by summer, and the Lord (atmosphere) rained down from heaven "fire and brimstone" (thunder and lightning, these usually making their appearance at the close of winter) upon Sodom. But Lot's wife (Iscah = who looks back), poor woman, looked back (Virgo setting headlong, and facing the earth), she couldn't help it, and was turned at once into "a pillar of salt," i.e., she went down into the briny sea.

[@adrianjanssens7116]

@@harveywabbit9541 Harvey you are really into this stuff. I hope you find it fulfilling. Your dedication shows through clearly.

[@michaellove3816]

God: "Be fruitful and multiply". Lot's Daughters: "Daddy, hold my beer."

[@ronaldharris6569]

More like daddy drink my beer

[@saveusmilkboy]

I am in despair because none of my Christian friends will get this excellent joke.

[@garygood6804]

@@saveusmilkboy lol your friends would be like: ItS nOt InCeSt.

[@gabrielailincai2079]

Lot, trying to resist his daughters... Them: We incEst! Lot: alrighty if you’re insisting wtf.

[@backpfeifengesicht8415]

Baby daddy in another sense...

[@yarnpower]

I attended Catholic parochial school and remember being taught this story when I was eight years old. I was horrified that Lot’s wife was turned into a pillar of salt for just looking back on the place she called home. It seemed so unfair and cruel. As did destroying the whole town when it was just some of the men who were evil. Why punish the women, children, pets, livestock, etc.? Why can’t God be more accurate in his punishments? Surely pin point accuracy should be within the abilities of a god.

[@iconoclastvii]

I remember thinking many times during my youth how many of the stories in the Bible are about compliance and the consequences of disobedience. These lessons are almost entirely unfair and cruel. In the case of Job it wasn't even punishment it was a pissing contest with the devil. God as anything other than a tyrant only holds up if you cherry pick like crazy and explain away the atrocities as tough love. Thankfully, there is no actual reason to believe he exists. Sadly, there are a lot of people out there who are not given the freedom to reach that conclusion absent loss of family and social standing.

[@valkyriefrost5301]

@@iconoclastvii - Unfortunately, these teachings reinforce the natural disposition of some people who then use the bible as justification for their own avarice. Obey your betters or be punished. Lessons taught to the child so that when they grow up, they understand their (lower) place in the world and learn not to question established authority. Even Elon Musk falls into this category of people when he says the US has the right to take Lithium for other countries without due.

[@Groffili]

It's the Bible! Women, children, pets and livestock do not count. They are possessions of the people who do count: men. And as such, they can be bartered, offered, discarded and dealth with in any way then men want. Yes, they may be _treasured_ possessions... but they are still only possessions.

[@GameLeaderR]

Reading through Genisis there are a lot of times when God sounds very limited in his abilities instead of omnipotent. I thought Lot's wife was just an collateral damage and it got me wondering why God was so sloppy with his attacks. Also God's Angels don't have some sort of out of other worldly and heavenly defence, they just have Holy Pepper Spray lol. Obi-wan would have had the group going home and rethinking their lives.

[@sergioalmeida2370]

There weren’t any precision guided weapons during that time..

[@BenYork-UBY]

Sounds like God would be a terrible hostage negotiator: "Just airstrike the whole building" "But sir, what about the hostages" "How many hostages?" "9 sir" "I do it for 10. Thats one less than 10. Send in the bombs"

[@christiangreff5764]

Or, just hear me out, old testament god is an awfully good "hostage negotiator". Just think about it: Who is going to take hostages in the future if they know an uncaring, overpowered deity will meteor-bomb them out of existence without hesitation? The one negotiation to end all negotiations. Ok, admittely, god is SEVERLY underusing its omnipotence and omniscience in this scenario ... I mean, just create the world in a way that the hostage situation will not come to pass in the first place ...

[@CAPSLOCKPUNDIT]

"Kill them all, and let Me sort 'em out!"

[@adrianthom2073]

@@christiangreff5764 , that’s how Russians military deal with hostage negotiations. And yes sadly many of the innocent hostages are killed in the process. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_theater_hostage_crisis

[@roems6396]

@@CAPSLOCKPUNDIT 😂😂👏👏

[@christianosminroden7878]

@@christiangreff5764 Given that He™️ allegedly has the knowledge and the power to create everything from the intricacy of living cells (and below) to the massiveness of galaxy clusters (and beyond), even as a teen still considering myself a Christian I struggled with His™️ apparent lack of ideas and/or might to find better solutions than those portrayed in the stories taught in „bible class“. I mean, really: WTF?

[@esands36]

Where tf did Lot's daughters get wine in the middle of nowhere

[@persistall]

Well christians have this thing with wine and blood plus they are girls/women...I'll leave it to your imagination.

[@esands36]

@@persistall Touché

[@GS-lq2is]

@@jamesoneil1388 😂😂

[@CAPSLOCKPUNDIT]

I shouldn't have to explain this, but if your emergency bugout kit does not contain at least enough alcohol to get the entire family blackout drunk for a three day weekend, then you're failing to adequately prepare for disasters of biblical proportions.

[@GS-lq2is]

@@CAPSLOCKPUNDIT A stellar response.

[@SpaceLordof75]

A joke about Lot’s wife. A teacher tells her Sunday school class the story. One kid says “that’s nothing, my mom was driving the other day, and turned into a telephone pole.”

[@ArgentavisMagnificens]

I'm dumb, can anyone explain this to me?

[@SpaceLordof75]

@@ArgentavisMagnificens Lot’s wife turned into a pillar of salt. Mom was driving and “turned”, I.e., drove, into a telephone pole with her car.

[@ArgentavisMagnificens]

@@SpaceLordof75 ohh I see

[@thomascarroll9556]

Maybe better if you say “was driving, looked back, and turned into a telephone pole.”?

[@Angus-Johnson-8334]

Jesus is King

[@DiahRhiaJones]

One of the main reasons that I could never take religion seriously as a kid. That question of "why did god stop doing all these miraculous things?"

[@AdmiralBison]

Many of today’s Christians just call every mundane thing and pedestrian of accomplishments, especially that they don’t understand “miraculous” I’m not joking, I lived with some Pentecostals and one of them considered the money their church managed to get for one of their mission flights was a “miracle” as though they’ve never heard of the concept of basic accounting.

[@chrisgraham2904]

Either God is dead, or he just stopped caring.

[@chrisgraham2904]

@Maxx Kroes Yep! The simple explanation is usually the right one.

[@GameLeaderR]

Same and the extreme ages of so many in the bible made me doubt. Kinda funny how stories ment to make you in awe of God's power actually had the opposite effect.

[@ScottDCS]

To quote HolyKoolaid "Take this story with a grain of Lot's wife" 😇

[@rebeccag7251]

I seriously have no idea how people believe any of this. 🤦‍♀️ I love these kind of videos!! Thank you!!

[@thinkthinker44]

I have several art pieces that work out my feelings about these very stories. The biblical abuse of women and children was very obvious to me as a child, and as psychologically traumatizing as the physical and mental abuse I was enduring at home. Kind of a mirror, really. I was there to be sacrificed for a broken father's piece of mind. Learning to endure the dissonance can be a matter of life and death.

[@marelinem541]

Been there, done that. I wish you luck and healing.

[@patchso]

Yeah. It's really quite frightening reading about how women have been treated at various times and in various cultures. Actually scares the crap out of me and I'm a man!

[@Джонатан-р8д]

So Abraham was like, "Nah, I can vouch for Lot. Save that dude." And even though god knew what Lot and his daughters would do, he allowed them to live, but killed every innocent person. What a useless book.

[@AssassinoJake]

It's like the flood. Were they all evil? Really? Perhaps some were wicked by circumstance, but God said "doesn't matter, they die too." And some would say "it's because of sin." But sin comes from the eating of the fruit of knowledge. Which, given the conditions, Adam and Eve were set up to fail. According to the bible, god is the source of all suffering.

[@demonkisser]

Back when I was grasping for belief, I came up with the hypothesis that he didn't know she became a pillar of salt until the next day, like Abraham seeing the next day. But not that there was a Sarah-shaped pillar of salt, but instead that the "destruction" included lightning, which formed some fulgurite, which was taken to be salt. I believed that she was lost and this was a post hoc rationalization for what happened. Now I just don't believe it happened at all.

[@Conserpov]

Wut? It's obvious that he killed his wife and told his underage daughters not to look back, inventing a bullshit excuse. Then he did the Fritzl.

[@Uhlbelk]

Like most myths and fables, the post hoc story is the most reasonable conclusion. Why was Lot's wife turned to salt? To explain strange towers of stone or strange locations of salt. Why does eating shellfish in the middle of a desert tend to lead to being sick when fish doesn't? God must have made them unclean.

[@samuelpollock2572]

The whole pillar of salt, fire and brimstone thing has always reminded me of mount Vesuvius. I went to Pompeii years ago, and I saw the bodies that were entombed in ash. I think it's not too far out of the realm of possibility that this story is recalling a volcanic eruption, and that perhaps Lot's wife was, in fact, "turned into a pillar of salt," that is to say entombed in the ash.

[@Uhlbelk]

@@samuelpollock2572 more likely to explain inland salt lakes like the dead sea, they had no way to know why one body of water would be salty and another fresh, so they invented god turning people to salt.

[@joshuacadavid871]

I also find it strange how the story of Lot almost giving up his daughters for sexual appeasement to the angry crowd is basically mirrored in Judges 19: 22 - 26. I find that very interesting.

[@CAPSLOCKPUNDIT]

It seems like any hero or likeable protagonist was purposely omitted from both stories. Matt submitted a plausible motive in the Sodom account. The final chapters of Judges are essentially pro-monarchy propaganda: tales of the lawless frontier used to frighten a loose confederation into support for a strong centralized authority.

[@joshuacadavid871]

@@ResourcefulNomad I does to some extent, I didn't realize that! This story n Judges also seems to be a version of Lot and his two daughters gone wrong (as if the original already didn't).

[@iconoclastvii]

If you guys haven't listened to Richard Carrier you ought to. He breaks down the Bible petty thoroughly. There is a LOT of retelling of old tales beat for beat.

[@joshuacadavid871]

@@iconoclastvii I have listened to Richard Carrier's lectures and he seems very convincing, however, I don't agree with the Mythicist position. Similar to Matt Dillahunty's position I'm pretty fine with the existence or lack of existence of a true Jesus figure (or Jesus's (plural).

[@Chance57]

@@joshuacadavid871 once you're at the plural stage you might as well be a mythicist imo. Without a singular historical jesus, what's the foundation to even build historicity off of?

[@thinkthinker44]

Also, it is interesting to me whenever I find echoes of older stories. Like turning Mrs. Lot to a pillar of salt being like whenever the Greek or Roman gods granted mortals a boon they would include such petty rules, that if broken would negate the just granted boon. Like granting Orpheus access to the underworld to fetch his wife Eurydice and telling him he cannot look back to be sure she is following, just take it on faith, or she will be lost forever. Of course he's just not strong enough to go the distance, and looks back at the very last second, and she is yanked back before his doubting eyes.

[@brucebaker810]

The genie stories... Deal with the devil...

[@domiro8156]

Yeah..... I did think of Orpheus and his Eurydice..... It seems that the Bible yet recycled another story from older existing religions.........

[@johnathanolson2]

It always amazed me that Christians would use this story to condemn all gay people, but they think nothing of how evil Lot was to offer his own daughters (not their decision) to be raped (not their consent). There's no way that's more moral by any standards lol. What a horrible father. But that's consistent with Christian ideals of parenting and even their abusive god.

[@michaelsommers2356]

Consent? What's that? They were his property, to do with as he pleased.

[@user-gk9lg5sp4y]

@Skydaddy Myth-Busters As christians prove daily

[@hope-cat4894]

The weirdest part is that people are more upset that it was men who wanted to rape male angels, and not that the men of the city wanted to rape at all. So if the angels were female, would it be ok? If it was the women of Sodom who wanted male angels, would that make it better? Why is homosexuality the big issue here? Priorities...

[@nates9029]

Yeah, the story of Lot was one of the main things that bothered me when I first read the Bible as a teenager. When I explained the story to my friends in my church they didn't believe me until they read it for themselves. It is also one of the stories I use to see if someone has actually read the Bible or not. If they haven't read it, the only part they know is the part about men of the city and Lot's wife. They don't know about Lot offering his virgin daughters for the men to rape and later his daughters getting him drug and having sex with him. But this is the good book....sure.

[@terryboot7777]

"Why did things like this stop?" asks Matt. EXACTLY.

[@AdmiralBison]

Because Yahweh likes to play hide and seek...also we don’t allow him into schools anymore.

[@patchso]

Yeah. Just after Matt recorded this, he was sadly turned into a pillar of pepper.

[@krizula1117]

@@AdmiralBison Good! Keep the children sane

[@gurnygub]

I think this is one of the most abhorrent passages in the bible. If I wrote a book even if it was fictional I would find it difficult to put something close to this in it. I would worry in case the reader would wonder what sort of warped mindset I possessed.

[@daithiocinnsealach1982]

But many don't worry about such things. There is example after example. There is no universally recognized right way to behave. We have physiological indicators and physical boundaries. I mean honestly I think it's possible it's just some crazy story some priest wrote and at the time with such media being so scarce or so new it was kept and treasured as a great story and then with a moral lesson and then as inspired and infallible Scripture.

[@slickestrick4117]

It would be just as silly to question someones motives or mindset for watching an extremely gory horror movie as it would be to question their love of any other genre, you should consider critically assessing that bias.

[@herbetone]

Can I please take this opportunity, just to thank you Matt. I have been recovering from religion for four years, and I owe this to finding you and AXP. I can honestly say freedom is dam good. 😎

[@Thekingmaker]

No lie, as a black man I get turned into a pillar of salt everytime I get out of the shower, lotion helps tho

[@toastedcheeze2357]

I'm glad you brought that up Matt! I'm going to bring this up next time the story is read!

[@dollgirl4everdoll552]

Love your channel matt, am an exmuslim, now atheist. I saw one of your videos about "women in the Bible" and was wondering if you would do about the women in Quran too as you mentioned?. Wish you the best👍🏾

[@christiananderson4909]

Good idea.

[@jollyandwaylo]

Matt isn't an expert in the Quran. You should do it since you were raised in the religion. That would be much better since you could put it in context of what people assumed about those stories when you were growing up.

[@daithiocinnsealach1982]

People respond much more the closer someone is to them culturally and ethnically.

[@dollgirl4everdoll552]

@@jollyandwaylo yes ofc, but i would like to hear his point of view.

[@gamingdragon1356]

I really don't get how mocking Christianity or Islam makes atheism better .

[@daveoh13]

i find it interesting that the only people who have names in this story are lot & his 2 incest babies; his lovely wife & 2 lovely daughters were nameless... when i heard this story as a kid, most of the details were left out by the preacher; it was, "the people were wicked, 'god' was angry & going to destroy the city, lot & family escape the fire & brimstone, lot's wife turned into a pillar of salt, so don't sin against 'god'!"... it wasn't until i read that book from cover to cover that i realized that i was not told the whole story, not just about this story, but about the whole book itself... bringing up this story when dealing with theists is always a fun way to end the conversation, now, though... btw; this story is so good, it's virtually repeated in judges chapter 19 [with some detail changes, plus nobody has names], right down to the specific dialogue that supposedly occurred...

[@seanmmccarthy]

An amazing detailed and well thought out analysis of something that's obviously bullshit. Keep up the good work Matt.

[@materialclassified]

Thanks, Matt! You're looking healthy and rested. Much thanks for helping lead me out of religion back in the day. Good to see you again!

[@DavidRobinson-rj2sp]

The whole Bible can be taken with a pinch of salt. They even invented a dude called Jesus in the New Testament.

[@gregorymehlhose1441]

A pinch of Lot's wife 😆

[@nicolasandre9886]

@@gregorymehlhose1441 : there won't be enough for everybody.

[@Moldylocks]

Bible needs to be taken with a pillar of salt.

[@domiro8156]

@@Moldylocks Realistically..... a whole bloody mine will NOT even suffice!!!

[@Angus-Johnson-8334]

Jesus is King. And he wasn’t invented he was real.

[@redcowcat8705]

Baking bread from scratch actually doesn't take that much time. It can take as little as 2 hours. Most of the time is waiting for the dough to rise.

[@CAPSLOCKPUNDIT]

Starting out with whole grain adds to the prep time, especially if the millstone is essentially a mortar and pestle.

[@redcowcat8705]

@@CAPSLOCKPUNDIT i don't think she started with a whole grain. She probably had grinded graines already.

[@sujoygupta5264]

lockdown has made us ALL bread making experts XD

[@dianahill7239]

Rolls, bagels, croissants.

[@brucebaker810]

depends on what you call bread. unleavened bread could be pita on a hot rock. Half an hour (if fire set).

[@carriehallahan5568]

You literally cannot make these videos fast enough, Matt. They're so good and informative.

[@bdhampster]

I just found this channel and am very much enjoying it. Thank you.

[@puckerings]

It probably wouldn't take too long to make the bread, since it would be unleavened, no need to allow it time to rise.

[@CAPSLOCKPUNDIT]

Leavened bread was described multiple times in terms of ritual impurity, but only starting from the time of the exodus. It wouldn't be relevant in this story anyway, since Lot was not Abraham's descendant, and not bound by Yahweh's covenant.

[@Realist-sh3dg]

When the eldest daughter named her son Moab the name means from my father that union eventually led to Ruth the Great Grandmother of King David. A similar event in Gen CH 38 Judah has relations with Timar his daughter-in-law and that union became King David's ancestors.

[@scottplumer3668]

It seems to me that the Lot story is used to JUSTIFY incest, not the other way around. "Well, they had to, in order to continue their bloodline."

[@lnsflare1]

I mean, they pretty explicitly didn't *have* to, since only 2 cities were wiped out and they had even been dropped off at a third city that was still standing before they decided to flee to the wilderness. If any of this was even remotely based on a true story, I'm thinking that it feels more like Lot and his daughters were chased out of town for committing incest, with Lot's wife staying behind.

[@chrisgraham2904]

How was Lot's bloodline doomed due to his advanced age and the loss of his wife? He already has 2 daughters to carry on his bloodline. Wasn't Noah still banging out babies at 900 years old?

[@scottplumer3668]

@@chrisgraham2904 Perhaps he needed sons.

[@puirYorick]

I love it when you dissect these ridiculous fairy tales in short snippets but still give all the relevant context.

[@brianh870]

"Be ye angels?" "Nah, we are but men, WHO ROCK!"

[@adamwoodruff7791]

One of the earliest dominoes in my deconstruction was a middle eastern texts class where the teacher suggested that the story of Noah’s children after leaving the ark was likely to justify the Hebrews claiming ownership to the land. It made me confused then, now it’s a theory I would subscribe to. Similar to this discussion. Thanks, Matt.

[@jeffersonian000]

When you go to the Dead Sea in Israel, there is a spire of salt that looks like a woman. The entire story of Lot and his wife is to explain why that spire looks like a woman. The story also explains the ruins of two towns that are near the Dead Sea. That’s it, nothing more to it. I saw the pillar when I toured the Dead Sea while I was in Israel working at an Intel plant as a contractor. The lesson here is that it’s just a story, nothing more than that. I’ve found that you can just ask an Israeli archeologist about the history of an area, and you will find out why Christianity is bullshit.

[@stevethecatcouch6532]

The documentaries about the area that I have seen show several pillars of salt which resemble women to some degree. One may have looked more like a woman than the others before all were subjected to a few thousand years of erosion. But yeah, the story of Lot started as a just so story about ruined cities and pillars of salt.

[@danquaylesitsspeltpotatoe8307]

Are you one of those sad fools who purchased a piece of paper with lord written on? 1) You can call your self lord in scotland or anywhere without doing anything! 2) IF YOU DO! you really need to think your life over and decide if you wish to continue to be so sad and pathetic or to get help!

[@jeffersonian000]

@@danquaylesitsspeltpotatoe8307 If being negative about the happiness of others makes you happy, that says more about you than it does them. Did you consider some people enjoy the notion of planting trees? Are you against planting trees?

[@danquaylesitsspeltpotatoe8307]

​@@jeffersonian000​ HIGH KING, EMPEROR, PHARAOH, KUBLAI, SHAH, KOHMEINI, KING OF THE ANDALS, THE RYOYNAR AND THE FIRST MEN, Immortal ruler OF SCOTLAND, THE WORLD , THIS UNIVERSE AND ALL OF THE MULTIVERSE and owner of the "peasant lords of scotland" FOR ETERNITY Dan Quayle here! (proving im way happier than you by your standard of your worthless "title") QUESTIONS AAAA) WHEN PEOPLE ASK WHAT MAKES YOU A LORD WHAT WOULD YOUR REPLY BE? 1) So you do realise you can play pretend and call yourself lord without buying the fake title from a Cayman Island Company? "If being negative about the happiness of others " 2) So what makes you happy by putting LORD in front of you name? TELL IM EXTREMELY INTERESTED WHY YOU WOULD DO THIS! 3) Do you show your friend/relative your print out (I BET YOU HAVE IT HANGING WHERE PEOPLE SEE IT) do you falsely claim to be a real lord? Does it make you feel good about yourself? (or atleast you like to think it does?) "Did you consider some people enjoy the notion of planting trees?" 4) So this is your excuse? You could have spent all that money! (How much did you pay and did you purchase the print out? "certificate") ON PLANTING TREES instead! But you didnt you gave money to a company owners to pocket. To get a piece of paper you could have printed out WHICH WOULD HAVE BEEN JUST AS A VALID! 5) So why are you making excuses for your decision? Defensive because you dont want to say "I paid 70$ for a piece for a lousy print out saying im lord in scotland when I could have done a much better job myself" The tree is clearly a psychological trick to boost sales. What did they pay 2$ for the tree and planting? But does it make you as happy as using an how old picture online that doesnt show as you are today? So its about what people think of you? Imagine if you had some thing real to show and tell people about? But you never see people with Degrees, Masters, Doctorates putting them on their lounge wall and telling people! WHAT DO YOU THINK IS THE DIFFERENCE THERE? Please tell Im fascinated with whats going on in your mind!

[@jeffersonian000]

@@danquaylesitsspeltpotatoe8307 How quant, the Threadomancer is triggered. Imagine if you had commented on the post instead of the name, you may have gotten an answer instead of an analysis. At least I post under my own name, and not a Pseudepigrapha.

[@estebancoria7226]

YES! To all of this 👏👏👏 obviously it’s a theory but this is the first time I’ve heard any rational explanation regarding this absurd tale. Thank you for this gem 💎

[@jannettb7930]

I grew up JW, and as a young child I always had a really hard time with the mythical nature of supposedly historical bible events. (So mythical that I thought Hercules was a bible figure and must have been a nephilim.) When I was 9 I decided to read the whole bible so I could understand better, and I was actually strongly discouraged from an independent reading outside my weekly bible study. It was Lot's daughters' incest and the complete lack of biblical comment, consequences, punishments, anything, that really made me start questioning the bible instead of questioning myself. Everyone told me it was my lack of understanding, but no one could give me a better one.

[@kevinjohnson8016]

Jehovah's witnesses are full of shit which Is why you're an atheist now

[@extremelylargeslug4438]

Hello fellow ex-JW! I agree, the Bible is horrific and even during congregation meetings where these stories were referenced or talked about, many JW’s wouldn’t comment because they realized how terrible these actions were.

[@jannettb7930]

@@kevinjohnson8016 you have no idea my journey or reasonings, don't try to be a mind reader

[@jannettb7930]

@@extremelylargeslug4438 I don't ever remember any discussions of it, just the vague notion that times are different then and what more can you expect of women. That part of the story adds nothing to the story of jesus, it's always baffled me that through multiple edits and reorganizations people read that and said 'yep. That's an important lesson. We have to include the incest of Lot and his daughters.'

[@kevinjohnson8016]

@@jannettb7930 I just know JW cult is not Christianity and man made. so you left a cult to be an atheist which is still a bad position. you jump from the frying pan into a fire.

[@aikendrum2908]

Whatever else you say about the story of Lot’s wife turning to a pillar of salt, at least it was there to be used brilliantly by Kurt Vonnegut in the opening chapter of Slaughterhouse Five - one of my favorite passages in literature, perfectly setting the tone for the rest of the book.

[@kenwelch198]

Here we go! Another episode of F'd up bible stories! Pretty much the whole book is full of them.

[@chrisgraham2904]

Amazon says, "If you enjoyed the Bible, you might also enjoy Harry Potter or The Lord of the Rings."

[@dcmbassi]

The Shellfish Incident would be a great addition to the Apocrypha. XD

[@goldenyak629]

Fun fact, Sodom is named for 'sodomy', and Gomorrah is named for, like, an even weirder move.

[@daithiocinnsealach1982]

Gomedy? Gomorrahy?

[@ray0tj]

@@daithiocinnsealach1982 ''CumMoreAaahh'' .....

[@randolphphillips3104]

Other way around, "sodomy" is from Sodom. They didn't name the town in the story based on an existing word, they created a word from the name in the story.

[@mikecrowley2472]

@@randolphphillips3104 - like "onanism".

[@dorothyvanbrocklin2424]

Sodom means "burnt" Gamorrah means "overwhelmed by water"

[@dramakween69]

I recall when I first read this verse... disgust would be the best word to describe what I felt. Sick and twisted also come to mind...

[@ca7842]

Yep

[@torbennielsen7529]

This story make a brothers Grimm story very logical

[@GlamRockSydney1987]

Love these in-depth bible story videos. Keep up the good work Mr. Dillahunty!

[@ShukakuTheCrazy1]

The don't look back thing reminds me of the myths of Orpheus and Izanagi

[@marshalllindsay315]

The story I heard on Lot’s wife was that she hadn’t simply turned to look, she turned to regret that the city had been destroyed and the end of her happily debauched life there. She wasn’t be-salted for the looking but for the longing.

[@ShukakuTheCrazy1]

@@marshalllindsay315 personally I think its more of a obedience thing. Always obey the alpha male

[@marshalllindsay315]

@@ShukakuTheCrazy1 I think it’s a little more pernicious. The punishment is for the wrong thoughts or, a little more Orwellian, “she is guilty of wrong think”. It goes to the vicious notion that you can never be innocent in the eyes of God. Or to me at the pulpit who will raise the entire congregation up against you. Not for an act but for a thought I can convince people you had, perhaps even yourself. Now go forth and sin no more.

[@FreedomDefender07]

When I was a Christian, my decision to attempt to read the entire Bible by reading a little a day made me stumble upon the story of Lot's daughters getting their father drunk to rape him. This story in particular really shocked me and confused me to the point that I stopped reading because I didn't know how I could process it and rationalize it out in the context of my understanding at the time. But, looking back, I wonder how many people in the congregation at the time actually knew of the existence of this story. And by extension, it makes me wonder what percentage of Christians have actually even read the entire Bible.

[@daithiocinnsealach1982]

The KJV Onlyists are quietly delighted that Matt Dilahunty loves ol' king Jimmy 👑

[@timothynelissen948]

He prefers KJV because you can get a copyright strike if you use a more modern translation

[@electricc437]

@@timothynelissen948 Wtf?

[@daithiocinnsealach1982]

@@timothynelissen948 He said he loves it in the video. I'm sure he probably does. Why not? The old dialect can sound more poetic sometimes.

[@timothynelissen948]

@@daithiocinnsealach1982 sorry, I must have missed that bit

[@michaelsommers2356]

Regarding the not-looking-back bit, compare the story of Orpheus and Eurydice. Orpheus is told not to look back at Eurydice as they leave Hades, he does anyway, and she is whisked back to the underworld. I think this is just a folk tale or fairy tale trope. As for the pillar of salt, my understanding is that this part of the story is an etiological myth to explain the actual pillars of salt in the region.

[@malirk]

0:28 - God attempts to smite Matt

[@cricket91181]

He finally got him!!!😂😂😂

[@Jeremyramone]

Excellent and fascinating! More videos like this por favor, your important work is quite greatly appreciated. Thanks very much.

[@laurajarrell6187]

Matt, I watched this right after I got notified, but company came. I agree with you. Telling, also, how women are only valued for babies. Male babies. Lots' wife has no name. None do. Just the boys. Such a horrific story for kids! 👍💞🥰✌😷🎃

[@junepearl7993]

When we were kids in Sunday school we we told that God said anyone who looks back will tell him they regret leaving the wicked city. If you regret leaving, you must have been OK with the sin going on there. So if you look back you'll be turned into a pillar of salt. Lots wife didn't obey God, and regretted leaving a wicked place. Always seemed cruel and petty. You aren't allowed to feel sad about leaving your home and friends? Or just be curious about something so amazing happening behind you? Nobody ever talked about the incest. This was the passage they said prohibited homosexuality.

[@raygowan1968]

Matt drops a "Yo mama" line & so far not 1 yo mama joke has been posted. I am highly disappointed in all of you.

[@biteme9008]

You mama is... ...a pillar of salt. I'm so sorry, here's some alcohol, grieve.

[@jasonsabbath6996]

Damn it! I thought he said Yo-Yo Ma and was about to make a cello joke! Glad I read your comment first! 😉😂🤣

[@danstoian7721]

I agree. Similarly, I think the story of Babel has the role not just to explain why people came to speak different tongues, if they where all descendants of one pair. But also why people came to believe in different gods.

[@k1ln1k37]

Alternate/similar version of your theory, Matt: The story was probably made up propaganda, the likes we've seen plenty examples of.

[@loyisog4795]

This is a great channel if you wanna unlearn the subconscious beliefs we adopted through the years of Bible indoctrination. Thank you Matt.

[@kristofftaylovoski60]

Why not a pillar of salt and pepper???

[@domiro8156]

You've got a point...... Why wasn't Lot's wife (doesn't she have a name?) offered, AT LEAST, her OWN choice of spices to be turned into????

[@gastropod557]

"Mrs. Lot's Gourmet Salt" A Middle-East Delicacy ~Kosher/Halal~

[@cratonorogen9208]

Great take on the story Matt.

[@haleythered1857]

Well there is only one explanation that makes sense and yes, it involves aliens.

[@brucebaker810]

Or maybe time travel?

[@OBluePrint]

1:55 What I was taught in bible class, was that the word Malach (Mal-Ach) that is translated to Angel, used to mean Messenger. So the word doesn't describe a being but rather a job, or applied to a person on a mission to deliver a message.

[@316350]

Matt, there are a few issues with your incest theory. I’ll mention one. Abraham and Sarah were biological siblings; they shared the same father. The Israelites, through the line of Isaac (a child born from a brother impregnating his sister), had no grounds to diminish their cousins regarding incest.

[@elly3359]

Lot and his daughters is a different case tho (father-daughter incest)... Probably this was considered more taboo for the audience at the time these stories were made

[@316350]

@@elly3359 what do you think about Leviticus 18? I think it bares out that all kinds of incestuous relationships were not as taboo among many people, including parent-child incest (perhaps primarily between mothers-sons). It is written that these incestuous relationships were common among the peoples in Egypt and Canaan (which may have included the Israelites themselves while in Egypt).

[@elly3359]

@@316350 my theory is that the Lot story (which supposedly explains the origin of certain people who happened to be Hebrew enemies) was a way to dissuade the people from emulating those kind of incestous practices... Then Moses later included those other relationships in Lev.18 as taboo/prohibited But you're right, and it's strange tbh that the bible is littered with incest especially among god's chosen people

[@ninjaturtletyke3328]

@@316350 I think it could be some Zoroastrian influence that found its way in ancient Hebrew religion. Whatever that was, passed down and reinterpreted to suit their then modern commandments that all of that was immoral.

[@markusmiekk-oja3717]

The hypothesis you present with regards to the origin of the Lot incest narrative as a joke at neighboring tribes' expense is one I've been pushing as well. However, a few additional notes: - The tribe's name Mo'ab (reasonably close to the hebrew for 'from the father') might have inspired someone to come up with this story? The name itself seems reasonably likely to be older than the story (c.f. a mention in an egyptian list of conquests in 1300BCE). - The relationship between the Israelites and the ammonites and moabites seem to have been more complex than just Jews hating on them; c.f. one of the few named converts to Judaism in the Bible, and the only one afaict to have a book named for her (and one of the few women to have a book named for her) is Ruth, a moabite. Regardless if the book of Ruth is anything like anything that actually happened, it's clear that the book was held in high enough regard to be included in the canon despite its eponymous hero being a moabite woman. - The catholic encyclopedia at the very least hinted at your hypothesis already back in 1907. It's weird that it hasn't gained any traction since. www.newadvent.org/cathen/01431b.htm Yes, there's some cautious words thrown around there to try and imply that maybe it was not _only_ a source of snide remarks regarding their neighbors, but that's sort of part and parcel for 1907 catholic publications.

[@harveywabbit9541]

Moab is two words of Mo (water) and ab (father). This water-father is the man with the water pitcher in Aquarius, just like Moses, Osiris, Hermes, Thoth, Bacchus, Janus, and many other river gods. Other spellings of Moses are Meses, Mises, Muses. Take a looik at the word Medad and Eldad which are Me (water) and dad (lover). Eldad = El (ram) + dad (lover). Medad refers to the fall equnox (Libra) and Eldad refers to the spring equinox (Aries). Recommend "Hebrew Mythology or Science of the Bible," by Milton Woolley. free on the net.

[@markusmiekk-oja3717]

@@harveywabbit9541 Take that astrotheology bullshit and stuff it. Milton Woolley was an ignorant huckster who didn't understand his sources and wouldn't have recognized rational inquiry if it bit him in the face. What does the idea of "Moab being the man with the water pitcher" contribute to understanding the context of that verse? Nothing.

[@jedi77palmer]

This story with Lots daughters is exactly where I could no longer continue reading the Bible.

[@mikecrowley2472]

That's a great, and totally plausible, reason for the incest myth. Thanks for this insight. I've heard (not actually been there) that near the salt-saturated Dead Sea there is an area of salt pillars. I don't know if this is anywhere near the "cities of the plain" but it seems possible that, at one time, one of these pillars had the appearance of a woman. Of course, this is pure speculation but it may have been the motivation for that portion of the alleged scenario. As in, "You have the audacity to doubt my story? Behold, skeptic, the very pillar itself!"

[@dwaynecaron5629]

Wouldn't the offspring have birth defects. The whole lot story is just the worst. As a father of three daughters, what Lot did is the most repulsive thing imaginable. He should have been turned into a pillar of shit.

[@AdmiralBison]

Yes, I’ve brought that up when it comes to incestious events with Christians Adam and Eve’s kids and their kids. Noah, his wife and their three sons’ wives Lot and his daughters. The answers is along the lines of hand waving “incest was not a sin back then and therefore couldn’t be effected by that generic stuff”, not understanding the question or outright ignoring it. It’s like many Christians where told to answer any and all criticisms in a certain by by their religion/churches and not to give it too much thought.

[@brucebaker810]

It's OT. I think one excuse/presumption is the genes weren't fouled then. So incest wasn't bad yet. So this "New Covenant" that exempts them from OT embarassments... Also cut lifespan from 600 > 70. Made incest bad. Adds Hell to the deal. Makes thoughts and making money crimes. ...

[@atomsofstardust]

The more I watch your channel and your dissection of these biblical atrocities the less I understand how can people in the 21st century believe in this or justify that. Even if there was a god, if he's anything close to what's described in the bible I personally wouldn't want to deal with that prick at all. But thank you a lot for creating all this content, it's eye opening to say the least, especially for a person like me who never fully read that book of tales, and judging by its content (as shown in many of your videos) I don't have any urge to read that atrocious book anytime soon.

[@samalthus]

Ever see the movie “Wholly Moses!” (Dudley Moore, 1980). It has some funny takes on several Bible stories including Sodom. (They rebuilt it, it’s called New Sodom)

[@babsbylow6869]

A great double feature with Monty Python's Life of Brian.

[@brucebaker810]

2Soddom, 2Gomorrah

[@dma8657]

Regarding the Bible and incest - I seem to recall that I saw an "apologist-lite" on video, maybe a clip from Answers in Genesis, which addressed the question of who Cain and Abel could have married. The speaker admitted that they would have married their sisters, but that was OK then; over time, incest has gradually become more and more sinful.

[@saymyname8925]

And thats how god invented salt

[@stevewebber707]

That sounds like a reasonable explanation of the purpose of the story. From what I recall, a fair amount of Genesis is stories about where and when tribes came from and of course where the world and everything else came from. And since in none of those cases was a witness present recording historical details, and the details were written about considerably later than the events would have occurred, they look like a mythology to describe or justify something in their time. That's sort of what people do when they don't have records of past events. They come up with stories, usually colored by their own beliefs. It was a good point that though the bible spoke of incest and rape, that didn't inherently endorse that behavior. Although there are still other incest questions coming from Genesis, that might be less easily resolved.

[@abycarroll275]

Wait, were Lot's daughters virgins or were they married?

[@charlidog2]

Engaged, I think.

[@marelinem541]

Two different sets of daughters, I think. Lot had some married daughters and some too young to be married daughters.

[@brucebaker810]

married daughters...he went to warn their husbands, who spurned him. the younger, still at home daughters had the adventure.

[@JohannRosario1]

The mythical destruction of Atlantis, the destruction of Sodom and Gamora, and the story of Pharos armies swallowed up by the Red Sea, may all be inspired by the actual event of the Minoan volcanic eruption of Thera-Santorini around 1600 BCE when all these stories of destruction are said to have also taken place. The explosion was so massive and catastrophic that it devastated the cultures in the eastern side of the Mediterranean. As for the pillar of salt, this may be inspired by eroded vertical salt deposites around the coast of the Dead Sea that inhabitants at the time believed to be salt petrified apparitions of the dead. Also it’s important to remember ANGEL actually means MESSENGER. These angel-men may have been similar to spies before a military invasion. And you are correct about “YOUR MAMA AND DADDY ARE DESCENDANTS OF INCEST” theory. It’s been observed before as a possible historic insult in its origin.

[@laz5590]

Very interesting and original angle to see this story ! Definitely agree with you

[@bryanaperry8760]

Awesome video, and i absolutely love this background. Sorry if you've used it before, but i'm just now noticing it lol

[@KevinRHenke]

When referring to Lot's wife turning to salt, The New Jerusalem Bible, p. 39, notes: "A popular explanation for some oddly shaped boulder or column of rock salt" found in the area.

[@SansDeity]

Yes. I'm aware. That's for a different video. ;)

[@Wertbag99]

I had heard the idea that is wasn't salt but basalt. The destruction in some regions was believed to be a volcanic eruption (ancient settlement built around the water catchment in a volcanic cone). Being "turned into a pillar" was a phrase used to mean all that would remain was a statue carved in remembrance. "Don't look back" is a common enough term just meaning "Run, and don't stop running!" If this was true it would mean Sodom was built in a bad spot and the volcano erupted. Lots of people fled the town, but Lot's wife paused to see the destruction and was killed by falling rocks. He later carved a memorial to her, leaving a pillar of basalt. After the fact people look for a reason and of course claiming an angry god made the most sense to people who don't understand the cause of natural disasters.

[@robinward6266]

I think that angels were added to their mythology after the Captivity. They got a lot of new ideas from Zoroastrianism, including angels, demons, Judgement Day, Heaven and Hell. Before the Captivity, the souls of the dead were supposed to be in a Hades-like underworld called Sheol. The Witch of Endor had the ability to raise a ghost from Sheol, so Heaven/Hell was not part of the mythology at the time.

[@davidroosa4561]

You have given me a "Lot" to think about... But I'll take it with a grain of salt. But I'll never look back

[@thetruthrover]

Not sure if this is due to translation differences, but my recollection of the "angels" visiting Abram is that they are called 'Elohim' by the narrator; And when they disembark from Abram's camp, two of them leave on foot to Sodom, while the main one, 'El' goes up, presumably to heaven. One thing i find glaringly inconsistent is the fact that in this story, Abram is allowed and encouraged to quibble with the Lord, yet later when asked to slaughter his son, he does it without question. This makes no sense at all from a human standpoint. Love your videos by the way, Matt.

[@dingokidneys]

A precedent was set that what was said by the "Angels" was not the final word on the matter when they had the whole Dutch auction about how many "righteous" people it would take to save the city. So Lot's wife was totally justified in testing how flexible the "Don't look back rule was" and it's completely at odds with the precedent that she should then be immediately turned to salt just for having a sneaky peak. But then who ever said god had to be consistent about anything. He certainly wasn't in any other part of the book.

[@Mikemenn]

Videos on the 1st of the month. Time for some Patreon donations! :)

[@daithiocinnsealach1982]

This feels like a Sunday morning sermon on a Monday morning. Maybe the atheist day should be Monday

[@frankiemiller5364]

It’s crazy to think that so many people (myself included at a time) believe this story to be true and meaningful regarding morality and ethics.

[@finkofinkofinko]

19:39 - Just so you know the scholars have been saying this for ages: "Scholars describe this story as an etiological myth: that is, it explains the origin of something-in this case of the Moabites and Ammonites, two of Israel’s neighbors. There are many examples of such accounts in the Hebrew Bible. As Israel had a long history of hostile relations with the Moabites and Ammonites, it is not surprising that some of the biblical authors would have wanted to take a jab at them by recounting their origins as incestuous." Source www.bibleodyssey.org/en/places/related-articles/lot-and-his-daughters [Edited to add the video timestamp]

[@harveywabbit9541]

Israel is a Phoenician word for Saturn. Moab is two words of Mo (water) and ab (father). Moab is the constellation Aquarius and Ammon is the constellation Leo. Ammon is from the Greek ram headed god called Zeus Ammon and Latin Jupiter Ammon (as sun gods). The Mo in Moses also means water and Moses lilke so many river gods is another personification of Aquarius. Aaron, the brother/twin of Moses, is a personification of Leo. Leo is the princial house of Melchizedek which is Melch (King) and tzedek/sedek (Jupiter). Melchizedek's arm stretches over Leo - Libra, the ancient summer season. The characters Moses (winter) and Aaron (summer) divides the year into two seasons of darkness and Light. They are the six nights and six days in Genesis one and are identical to Adam and Eve, Cain and Abel, Ishmael and Isaac, and Jacob and Esau.

[@SiriusMined]

I always think of the movie Wholly Moses, and how Laraine Newman's character got turned into a pillar of salt as well. Dudley Moore's character kept her around and it would scrape salt off of her. It was hilarious.

[@shaneemmons9508]

Never thought of it that way but it’s hilarious that the whole story could have been in essence an elaborate ancient battle rap verse. I wonder if there are any undiscovered Moab rebuttals.