How To Make Indie Games In 2025 w/ Jonathan Blow - Full Time Game Dev Podcast Ep. 024

[@thomasbrush]

Can we give a round of applause emojis for Jonathan? ► Follow Jonathan's new game on Twitter: x.com/Jonathan_Blow/status/1854276627305283874 ► Learn how to make money from your indie games (free webinar): www.fulltimegamedev.com/opt-in-how-to-make-six-figures

[@thomasbrush]

👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏

[@mobatton]

Jonathan is my hero! Which makes you my hero by proxy! Thanks for all your great work Thomas

[@zarandor2012]

Hi! There's this upcoming platfom called Gamearly which goal is to help game developers fund their game thanks to the players. Have a look to it, it might be a game changer for developers in a close future.

[@Muskar2]

I looked up JB's twitter images and wow that's a pain to look through. I found the easiest way to find them was to look at his media posts, and of the five polished images from Nov 6, and Sep 12, I think this post picked one of the least interesting. The others were much more atmospheric.

[@____uncompetative]

Bidenomics.

[@kr1sso]

As usual, Jonathan interviews himself - what a legend.

[@ali-4096]

I've never seen jon blow in such high quality before 😂😂

[@badpotato]

haha

[@stickguy9109]

I like your pfp

[@Louis-v8m]

So your solution is that you, as an indie US developer, came first and grew, and now it's the time to shut the door for other developers? That's a very nice, typical US act! I think in response, other countries should ban Steam from selling in their countries and open their local stores!

[@magellan124]

He switched to Vulkan for this stream so now he can handle higher res textures

[@maxrinehart4177]

It's run on 4090 with dlss with 4k resolution. of course you get the highest quality there to be.

[@RageRaccoon]

the thing that Jonathan was talking about at 1:28:15 is something I was thinking this entire interview. Coming from a music background, gaming is going through a similar shift that music did in the 2000s into the 2010s. Listening to the "indie" artists (not the genre, just self produced and published) talk about their experience, the thing I hear echoed the most is, back in the day it was 1 million fans for 1 band, but today it's 1 million bands for 1 fan. All you really need to survive as a small creator is around 1 thousand people who like your stuff and want to show you support, then you'll be able todo what you like. The concept of what is "successful" has shifted dramatically, and too many people are trying to chase an idea of success that's 10-20 years out of date at this point. Ease of access to tools (game dev, marketing, and funding) has created a type of market saturation that just doesn't allow for the huge hits to happen at the same rate that they used to. Its not a BAD thing, I think it's actually the proper evolution and healthy for both consumers and creators alike. It's the playing field getting balanced in a way that lets more people do these types of things as more than just a hobby.

[@joel6376]

Thomas is just upset because he is all about getting financial backing. Your points are spot on.

[@tequilasunset4651]

Also, just think about how low your chance of making it would be if things were still as they used to be. Those people were much more exceptional, and if you're into game dev now it is probably due in part to the tools being easier to use, or the greater variety and resources there is for setting your own challenges. You don't have to make something like Animal Well to be successful.

[@Unexpectedstuff]

I want to mention that gamedev still has really high barrier to entry. Not saying that music isn’t, but framework of becoming a musician was established centuries ago.

[@weirddingus4620]

It actually is a net-negative, the easier common tools are to use for wannabes the more shit products hit the market. So there's more and more games being made because it's so much easier to make a run of the mill game than it used to be, but most of the product on the shelves is shit. It's been that way with books for a long long time, because all you need is a pencil pen / typewriter / keyboard. Stephen King once said 90% of the books on the shelves at the bookstore are shit. As an avid reader all my life, I agree. Takes about 1 hour of browsing to find something probably worth reading, if I find anything at all. However, all that means is that people will notice after a while and only the really great games will stand out as generational games.

[@nintendude794]

@@weirddingus4620exactly.

[@netrunningnow]

As a programmer I completely relate on what he said about wanting to make your own engine... a programmer wants to program like a singer wants to sing and painter wants to paint.

[@Martinit0]

That's the problem. It's too much fun so too many are willing to make little to no money doing it which destroys the business for those who depend on it.

[@SnowDaemon]

@@Martinit0 this take make absolutely no sense. how could someone who has the knowledge and skill to make a game engine be hurting the gaming industry by write their own game engine? (unless i misunderstood you)

[@reaperanon979]

@@SnowDaemon The business they work in. It adds at LEAST a year of development time if you already know exactly what to do and are making anything remotely serious. That is an extra year with no income and no product.

[@tiredcaffeine]

@@reaperanon979 A year is an understatement. Even with a big team of programmers, it's going to take at least a few years to make something competent unless you are making a very bare bones engine. I mean, look at Godot.

[@grantla85]

It seems that when Jonathan talks about his motivation for making a game, thomas can't quite understand, because they're very different in that regard. thomas makes a game because he wants to earn money. jonathan makes a game because wants to make a game.

[@TheCellCH]

That sums up my impression as well. I feel like some parts of the interaction is Thomas just wants to indulge in some easy chit chat and not engage in the conversation too deeply.

[@unk511]

And what is the problem to make money? Sustains his family don’t look cool as making a game for pure ego? Come on man.

[@grantla85]

@@unk511 I never claimed that one is worse than the other, but simply pointed out that you can clearly sense this difference in fundamental motivation during the conversation. Come on man...

[@TheCellCH]

@@unk511 you missed the point. It's not about the money part it's about the not understanding jonathan. As a host not understanding the interviewed leads to uninteresting questions or missing out on a deeper conversation.

[@arallia]

i don't think money is thomas's only motivation, but it does seem like he is much more focused on it as a metric for success

[@kafir1337]

hey, your automatic camera switching based on mic volume isn't working as intended and is distracting. almost every time jon pauses in a sentence for a few seconds, the camera switches to you, and then switches quickly back to jon. it feels awkward to get a reaction shot of you while jon is simply taking a very natural pause between words, not to mention how abrupt and random the cuts feel. also, when you shift around, play with an object, readjust your mic, accidentally tap or bump int your desk, etc., the camera switches to you and then right back to jon as he's talking.

[@ichigen511]

Agree it started to actually make me uncomfortable and i basically just listened to the video like it was on the radio and just not watch it.

[@twocatsyelling723]

Jonathan Blow has a real knack for taking complex, technical things and putting them into plain English, in an interesting and, sometimes, even entertaining way. Very rare gift, I find.

[@thewiseowl8804]

I liked his "traffic cop" Steam storefront analogy. Unrelated, but I also liked his statement about puzzle games losing interest in a kickstarter if there’s a demo, because people will have already learned the solutions.

[@Jabrils]

what Blow is talking about at 28:00 is currently what im going through with my game & its driving me insane. Basically, I am making an online game with a custom physics engine & has replays that have to stay deterministic, & who would of guessed that different devices calculate their floating point precision differently sometimes causing WILD desyncs 🤷‍♀

[@itsmeklc]

Hi Jabrils I hope you go on this podcast eventually 👀👀

[@nindza79]

He is right about the software declining. Around 2017 we worked on a game, and we updated the Unity version. Turns out, it didn't compile at all! You press "Build" and literally nothing happens, like the button was disconnected from a code it should execute. At first we were pulling our hair out if the project went to shit, then when we found nothing obviously wrong, tried the other projects, and also different machines (we had an iMac and Windows machines). Then my friend contacted Unity via support chat, and they were pretty responsive and chatty, again pointing us that our project might have an error, but we insisted that they have a major bug. It lasted until the guy tested that Unity version himself. At that point the support stopped responding, he didn't even say "hey, you guys were right, we'll look into it", nothing. I can only imagine a panic mode they went into when they realized that the game engine can't produce an executable lol. Tomorrow the patch was out fixing the issue :)

[@techpiller2558]

When J. Blow talks, I listen.

[@CharlesLijt]

When he talks, I kneel

[@luckyboy5nu]

If Jonathan Blow thinks, I agree.🤔✅ If Jonathan Blow speaks, I listen.🗣👂 If Jonathan Blow orders, I obey. If Jonathan Blow has a million fans, I am one of them.🙋🙋‍♂🙋 If Jonathan Blow has one fan, I am that fan 🙋 If Jonathan Blow has 0 fans, I’m dead😵❌

[@bryanedds8922]

Same.

[@zionen01]

The man has correctly predicted many tech events years ahead of time, so smart thing to do I think.

[@jamad-y7m]

When J Blow blows, I whistle

[@ax23w4]

I like listening to Jonathan Blow. I don't like listening to the host adjusting the mic every few seconds.

[@AKHalex]

Yeah, seems like a nervous habit of some sort. It jiggles my ear drums every time.

[@TheThegirlbehindyou9]

I thought i was the only one who felt that

[@GreedAndSelfishness]

Thomas just visibly dying from stress.

[@bryanedds8922]

Feeling this.

[@maxrinehart4177]

dude was like a student who has exam but never studied for. fumbled his way till the end of stream.

[@khoavo5758]

I don’t get this, the interview is good. Edit: Ah I see, he was talking about stress half-way through.

[@nonlinearsound-001]

It’s all the unfinished things, external factors, sustaining his company and its team and so many more things, man …. It just weighs heavy… sleepless nights, I tell ya. It’s hard.

[@ashleycanning1450]

I really hope the best for him, love his content. If your reading this Thomas, keep your head up and ship twisted tower!

[@imphonic]

What I'm getting from Jon's comments about the difficulty of making games is exactly what matches how I feel right now: it's easier than ever to get started, but it's harder than ever to finish and stand out. There's so many more features and so much more polish that you need that you could simply get away with not having back in the day. Optimizing is a nightmare too when the code behind it is a mess; Unreal's source code is a trainwreck, but it's got the tools I need to ship a game, so... oh well.

[@lifeartstudios6207]

yeah, add in the complexity of today's low end platform development or cross platform. I'm an XR developer and it's been an ongoing nightmare since 2017. The software stack just keeps getting more and more jank. Meanwhile Epic is chasing the film and automotive industry instead of focusing on it's game developer audience. Haven't had a stable engine version since well before UE5.

[@AndrzejGieraltCreative]

Its so easy to get started and yet the biggest question new devs have is still "which engine do I use?" People who are interested in game dev still aren't really starting game dev.

[@pizzaman11]

Yah, you can go UE 4 Indy but anything ue5 is a trap. Yes, you can make really cool looking environment or animations but once you dive into any systems that isn’t built specifically for Fortnite, you need to do some engine rewrites beyond the scope of an Indy project.

[@lifeartstudios6207]

@pizzaman11 you need to do that in UE4 as well. Also, even with the UE4.27 plus branch, you're going to have issues If you're targeting anything other than PC / steam.

[@pizzaman11]

@@lifeartstudios6207 yah it’s not quite as bad though because you don’t have the overhead of the larger UE5 systems sinking framerate which gives you the space to hand wave a few things as good enough.

[@jevestobs9814]

This interview was kinda wild to me. Tommy boy starts off like "Hey I've figured out how to make $100,000 a year making games and you can too if you buy my class" straight into "Hahaha this industry is fucked and I have no idea what I'm going to do"

[@Hassanjoraid]

As an intern engine development enthusiast, I found that making games from scratch is more rewarding and fun. For me, the process of creating game engines and systems is more enjoyable than the final result of the game, which feels different from how many other devs I met feel as they seem more interested in the result than the process and they just push through it just for the result. If you love programming or game dev, I would highly recommend trying to make a game or engine from scratch at least once. I started doing this about seven months ago and it’s been amazing. It taught me a lot, and I enjoyed it so much that I can’t imagine going back to using commercial engines unless it’s for work or money. Building everything yourself is not only fun but also a great way to grow as a developer imo.

[@an_imminence]

So you are the Technical Lead while others are the Creative Lead or Design Lead. That's literally why companies exist, because no one enjoys doing everything. A company with more tech people will make a tech-heavy game, one with many writers a writing-heavy game etc, so there are many possible combinations inside companies. A company with just one tech person will only maybe make a game at all, but definitely will make tech. So be careful to not lose sight of finishing something so you can continue. Good Luck!

[@markcollins3856]

I like the interview a lot but something that other podcasters do that is really missing here is they stay quiet when the interviewee is talking like I understand that's not natural conversation but do it post or something because its really jarring to listen to and just hear every 30 seconds "right"/"yeah". Please keep doing what you're doing but just some honest feedback. Questions are great and again great interview and honestly it didn't happen that frequently

[@bbok1616]

It feels like Tom is trying to insert himself while Jonathan talks and then he just gives up

[@lonbpalmer]

JB: No one cares about the low level game engine concerns anymore, people just don't understand. TB: *Looks around like he doesn't care about the low level concerns of the game engine* JB is the last, remaining software engineer in the mold of Carmack.

[@i-am-the-slime]

What utter nonsense. What about even Casey

[@FireF1y644]

Finally a really smart guy with good thoughts, not just another salesman or emptyminded "personality"

[@fceruti]

I've been waiting for this cross over for years!

[@korpos8833]

Me2

[@Tsundown]

Regarding the end of the podcast, where Jonathan talks about affecting peoples success. A single raid on twitch to my 2 viewer stream, got my Kickstarter a $1000+ traceable boost back to him, affiliate on twitch, and a consistent viewership afterwards. With a singular button press from twitch. He gave me success, community, and hope during a difficult time in my indie gamedev journey. Did my game make me a living? No. But it outperformed most indie games in its genre, and I was able to pay rent for about half the year. I owe a lot to Jonathan, I look forward to the day I can thank personally, and I hope he one day realizes just how much influence he really has.

[@scuube7176]

I'm amused by the unintended comedic timing whenever the camera, triggered by audio, pans over to Thomas as he adjusts his seat or stuff like that 😅

[@JohnnyGintonic]

I‘m not sure that this is unintended..

[@RandomGuyyy]

"I know you're saying something profound but lemme adjust my mic one last time..."

[@SnowDaemon]

what is crazier is that he didnt edit it out. in fact, he didnt edit the video at all. he even kept in stuff like Johnathon coughing...like wtf

[@kafir1337]

@@SnowDaemon not editing out coughts is fine. the automatic camera switcher with 0 effort to appease it is the real problem

[@indieguy7297]

This industry BLOWS! Great guest, looking forward to these insights.

[@facelessanon]

It doesn't help that the interviewee is Jonathan BLOW

[@philippe6918]

Thats the joke lol ​@@facelessanon

[@Rietto]

I've had massive respect for Mr. Blow since I played The Witness (one of my favorite games) and learned about the creative process of its development. Unlike a lot of people, I guess, I have never played Braid despite hearing so much about it (it's not really my genre of game). Whereas 'that realization moment' in The Witness truly was one of the coolest things I've ever experienced in a video game. On top of the game being so gorgeously crafted. Despite a ton of people hating on Jonathan as a pretentious snob, I think he has proven he has the actual intelligence to back it up. Haters always gonna hate.

[@GreatistheWorld]

You should check out Braid man, it’s closer to the Witness than it sounds like you’re assuming. The new anniversary edition is really cheap right now and has a ton of developer commentary. And oodles of a-ha moments!

[@DooMWhite]

Braid also has that same insight moment, it's amazing.

[@ShinDMitsuki]

I want to just take a moment to push back further than the assessment of Thomas that "it's easier to make a game because the engine will just do those things for you." Jon was nice about it, but it needs to be understand that it's unequivocally not true. A game engine obviously solves some problems, but you also inherit all the problems of that engine. Also, given how complex the tool you are using is, most of the time you also cannot feasibly solve those problems, even if you were using your own technology a solution would be feasible. In Unity's case, you can't even access the source code to hope to fix any of it. I have personally ran into this problem of waiting years on a fix in Unity for something, which is why I no longer use it or even consider it a reasonable tool for game dev unless you are a large studio that can pay for source access. Jon brought up the problem of frame rate independence. "Just let the engine solve it for you." Unity can't solve it for you. Unity will do frame rate independence through fixed update. That is a solution with many drawbacks (go look at how it actually ensures you get a fixed update) Also, once you understand how it works, you know you cannot take user input there. Well, if you can't take input from the user in the fixed update, you run right back into the problem Jon was talking about. Also, even if you do use fixed update, you run into the other problem Jon talked about. By fixing the update interval, you are basically disallowing higher frame rate refreshes from occurring. How do you solve this? Interpolation? That's an extremely non trivial solution. Unreal is the same way. AAA studios inherit it's shader combinatorics issues. That leads to in game stutters. Do you really think you are going to fix the massive beast that is Unreal's material system just because you have source access, when even AAA studios and Epic themselves have yet to do so? Yes, you can reasonably architect YOUR system to not have the problem, but can you do it for the multi million line codebase of Unreal? How about trying to get a temporally stable frame in Unreal? Very difficult task, given how they develop the renderer, it's actually borderline impossible. There is no magic solution to these problems and a game engine existing is not some panacea that is going to solve all of these things and make them easier. You can choose to ignore all of these problems and say they don't matter, but then we run right back into the problem of mass produced subpar quality products. It is easier to ever to make something with reckless abandon, but the entire point here is that that is in and of itself a major issue.

[@ItsAllGoodGames]

lol its not that hard, you do input in Update() but the action itself in FixedUpdate() you can use a boolean like ButtonPressed or something. And the rigidbodies have interpolation built into the component, you can choose interpolate, extrapolate, etc Sure its something you have to learn but its not like some super complex issue. The fact is unity DOES out of the box provide you with Update() and FixedUpdate(), And if you're not making a unity physics dependent game then its even simpler.

[@nerdError0XF]

very well said!

[@kamenkitanov]

I don't think the problem Jon was talking about has to do with Frame Rate Independence (FixedUpdate vs Update), but rather with Frame Pacing. As far as I understand Alen Ladavac's presentation that Jon was referring to, the issue is that graphics APIs do not expose a way to measure the display timing of a frame. Game engines can measure the render time, but on desktop OSes, the frame is actually displayed at a later time after the OS has finished composing. This introduces microstutters that you can't account for, regardless if you use a fixed step or not. This issue cannot be solved via a custom engine either (Croteam is using their own engine for the Talos Principle).

[@ferinzz]

There was a nice talk from GDC where the speaker was talking about the pros and pros of making your own engine. It's all about time and money. You have to look at the benefits and downsides of a certain engine based on the strengths. If the engine doesn't solve ALL of your problems, then it creates more problems that you have to not only solve, but potentially fight against. One example was the networking system which UE has. Which is fine. But if you want a massive network of events it will not be able to sustain it at scale.

[@NeekOW2]

I think this is definitely one of the allures of Godot, you can indeed hop into the game engine and change the engine to your needs.

[@neonswift]

Regardless of what some people think of Blow, I personally never find myself disagreeing with him. More than not I think its people reacting to his first take without listening to his further elaboration, and more often than not its just people who have no actual experience that equals him disagreeing because they think they know more. This was a very interesting discussion. Thanks.

[@ForceGD]

J. Blow's hairline is a matter of mystery. It stayed in its current state since Indie game movie. Update the textures, my man.

[@bohmales]

It was sad to watch the "ADHD version of Henry Cavill" being distracted the whole time, playing with the microphone, and finally having to go pee. Anyway, thanks for this interview. Listening to Mr. Blow was very interesting and comforting.

[@dsego84]

The constant fidgeting and interjections were a bit distracting, also not doing homework about Jon's language and new game project. But I can't say I didn't enjoy the discussion and ideas they exchanged.

[@deryckschnee6376]

@@dsego84 Agree. I had to minimize the window and just listen, but then very much noticed the constant sighing/nose-exhaling by the host. Not sure if true, but the host seemed disinterested in most of what was being said and instead thinking about what he was going to ask next.🤪

[@MrModez]

Sooo annoying, did he even watch a bit of his video before releasing it?? It such an easy thing to fix in post. Such incompetence...

[@MarkEhlen]

thanks both! loved hearing Jonathan's approach to the challenges of gamedev these days. Thomas I really appreciate you creating this, but in the future please refrain from grabbing my head (the mic) to re-position it each time before you speak... or at least reduce/edit that out of the audio if some adjustment throughout is unavoidable. Video quality here is sooo high, but the audio feels like a kid is kicking the back of my airplane seat every couple minutes lmao

[@kirpich158]

truuuuuue

[@EvelynHill]

Thomas - What you discussed with "Making a game where you can get paid to make it" and "Building an audience to activate for funding" is *exactly* what my studio is trying to do right now. We have a harder time because we are a team, but our entire social media strategy is around getting patreon subscribers so that we can be self reliant and liquid even if we find publishing etc. Ideally we wouldn't have to do layoffs if a game doesn't sell incredibly well or we get a publisher and then finish the project we got that funding for because that money is supplement to the audience funding.

[@difflocktwo]

what happened to make a thing and then sell said thing?

[@SixSD]

Shoutout to my programmer, waiting 20 seconds for Unity to play a game has not been my experience at all in more than 10 years of developing 3D games.

[@G--_--g902]

I did not know that pyre bombed because its genuinely one of the most unique games ive played and is really freaking good

[@nonlinearsound-001]

KZbin throws so much stuff at me that just wastes my time. Your conversation and the video is, what this KZbin thing should be all about. You are helping us and hopefully yourself with it. Couldn’t be more win-win than this, man. Thanks :)

[@chao3948]

this was maybe the best interview jon has ever been in? just the thought of the new game releasing in 1-2 years made me 100% happier

[@lDeath489]

Grateful to hear Jonathan. It always have an impact in me because he is humble and realistic.

[@Interference22]

Regarding AI, I feel like its effectiveness is inversely proportional to knowing what you want: the more you have a specific vision of something, the less likely it's going to be any use creating it. If, on the other hand, you have the absolute vaguest idea of something, you might actually get a useful result out of it.

[@zoeherriot]

Yeah, it's the perfect solution if anything will do. :)

[@tequilasunset4651]

Unless you're writing code with AI. Then you'd better know what you're asking for.

[@doctorflynn5124]

not for long....

[@scottlee600]

Really funny to see these two minds together on one video - I see Thomas as this passionate, emotional artist contrasted with this analytical mastermind Jonathan Blow. They kind of care about different things but they're attempting to meet each other within this space between them. Kind of great.

[@ew2430]

Beautifully said, I agree.

[@nerdError0XF]

"passionate, emotional artist" definetly applies to Jon too, like more than to a lot of other game devs. I didnt watch this video yet, but ive watched tons of other stuff with Jon and i can definetly say so. Thats literally why some people hate Jon, thats because he was really emotionally reacting to people critizing his games (though it was often really exaggerated by media and people). He really puts all his soul into his games and they mean very much to them, like he kinda tries to explore a meaning of life through them

[@rayecast]

Jonathan Blow is one of the realest artists out there. I don't mean to compare or anything, but I see him as even more of an artist in the truest sense of the word than Thomas.

[@yunggolem4687]

Tom is more of a manager/marketer I think. If he was in a company he would be a producer.

[@Crunchiness]

never knew Dave Bautista was an indie dev

[@siskavard]

Dave Blowtista

[@CharlesLijt]

dave now looks thinner than JB

[@ShellworldGames]

I think the road to success in 2025, and what I am planing for my game franchise as a budding Indie Developer, is to get online and develop your community first. Give them a game within your ability to develop that they are interested in and excited to play (a simple entry into the survival genre for me), give them a roadmap, show frequent progress, and release playable demo builds. Basically grow your playerbase along with your game or game franchise, listen to your fans and don't let them down.

[@Norfirio]

As a software engineer in a big corporate company, the top causes of increased entropy over time I've experienced is (perceived, whether real or not) safety concerns and pressure to deliver the shiny new things (e.g. Midjourney as Blow states in the interview). There have been multiple times when we were in need of a refactor to make our code either run faster or to set us up for planned new features coming up, and we ultimately decided to not do it because a refactor is a risk, and when you may end up breaking something by making no end behavior changes it's hard to justify that to upper management. Additionally, for promotions and bonuses they primarily take new features into account. They SAY they care about quality, too, and you can mention your refactor had some impact but it's hard to prove a counterfactual by saying "if we didn't refactor, new feature X would have taken Y months more to do", but really they just want whatever makes the stock market ticker go up in the short term. So, no refactor happens and the new features get piled onto the existing code base.

[@gosadlkj]

this is the deepest interview ive seen for a while. like couple years. two people who really know whats going on and really trying to find some sense in it. brilliant

[@TheAlieann]

Listened to this while crocheting and I feel like I learned so much! Thank you!

[@callumbirks]

Amazing to see this GOAT on the podcast

[@Glaucus-999]

“We cannot choose our external circumstances, but we can always choose how we respond to them.” - Epictetus

[@I24FFA]

to a certain extent, if we can't choose our external circumstances and it is they that shape who we are, that define our personality, then we can't choose how to respond to them either, we will simply respond in the way that those initial external circumstances have taught us to behave. does that make sense? furthermore, if we could choose our external circumstances, what would dictate those choices? there must always be some initial world, with rules, so that we can create a mental model and understand which personality is best adapted to guarantee survival in that world, we can't simply exist outside the universe and have the ability to decide our external circumstances I'm not sure if I'm being clear enough, I myself am trying to understand if what I'm saying makes sense

[@randomrandom3985]

@@I24FFA theres mos def a discussion to be had on this

[@cuzx1]

Thanks. I don’t understand why you have the camera back focusing on you when J is talking and you are looking away. Great work, would appreciate if you can get a director/editor.

[@jomesias]

13:28 the idea of a blue and red ocean comes down to doing the same thing that everyone else is doing. If no one else is doing the gameplay like you do it, no one else is doing camera changes and no else is adapting the gameplay like you, then you are doing a blue ocean strategy! In the end a good game is a polished (and addictive) game hook. So good you can’t put it down, the effects the lighting the cinematic camera changes etc all of it contribute to immersive gameplay and you can’t help and say “yes I’m the greatest! Yes that was a great goal, yes that was a great dragon punch!” So, establish a game hook and polish it: add particles, add cam changes, add sound and visual response to your button actions, etc! Only you know how you would want the game to play, it also takes a lot of time and effort to do all of this!! So polish polish polish !! Until you polished it into a diamond!! 💎💯💯💯

[@kurku3725]

nah if the market is overheated, then the amount of supply goes way beyond people’s ability to pay attention even if your game stands out in terms of gameplay have you ever been in like a super gigantic store, you just completely ignore massive amounts of things and you just buy things from the list

[@jimmyporter8941]

I think Jon Blow's plan to release his next game is to package up the full game with the JAI compiler and the source of the game as real example of how to use it. So he'll sell both to the people that want the next J Blow game, AND he'll sell to developers that want JAI with full example. Which will be quite a feat, as no one's been able to sell significant numbers of a compiler commercially for decades.

[@paulsikatv]

very interesting take

[@atom-2077]

jonathan monologues and thomas sighs, great interview!

[@Matkins85]

The thing that's likely killing your compile time in Unity is the domain reload (clearing of all statics). Unity has to do that because your C# code can execute both in edit time and in game runtime. You don't want any static variables to persist between these contexts, and certainly not between game runtime sessions. You can actually turn off the domain reload if you don't use static variables, or are very careful to reset any when the game starts or stops. It reduces the recompile time significantly, and the time it takes to enter and exit play mode. It's makes such a big difference that I would argue you can't realistically make a large game in Unity without switching it off and managing any statics yourself.

[@RizaBochiza]

Jon: *coughs up a lung* Jon: Maybe we can cut that out Thomas: No, that's okay Why, Thomas? Look after your guests.

[@briangonnet4]

Lol

[@bryanedds8922]

fugg it

[@julkiewitz]

Cut out a lung? Seems a bit extreme

[@SnowDaemon]

ok so im not the only one who is somewhat annoyed at the fact that he didnt edit out any part of this interview. lol

[@NimVim]

@@SnowDaemon Its a podcast, not an interview.

[@tatoforever]

Well it's about how you use the engine. My last game runs flawlessly on Nintendo Switch and it instant load everything. Made with Unity btw. It's a huge game (8GBs) with very big and complex shaders. We do hide shader compilation, which happens to be done once, behind the first 3D scene loading, behind a cut-scene. So yeah, depends how well you use the engine and how you work around their limitations in a way that doesn't affect user experience. About the approach on making games in 2024 (and forward). Thomas is right about the needs to adopt a modern approach for game development and using popular engines. But I still love (and miss also) the old school approach of Jonathan. In my last job, I got the opportunity to replace Unreal Engine default renderer and shading models, it was a ton of fun. Reminds me a ton the old ways of making games, where you had to literally write your engine before even start making your game.

[@MikeyOfLegend]

Jon was one of the reasons I got into gaming. Really great episode, learned a bunch.

[@AlexKolakowski]

Whoa epic guest!

[@streamcyper]

Loved the interview! Tho I pretty much found myself disagreeing with every one of Thomas' opinions and takes, I did learn from them and appreciated them. It's interesting to see the different perspectives, and approaches to the industry.

[@rami22958]

When Jonathan gives it to you, hold on to it. This is a game developer in an era where it's hard to be an indie game developer.

[@dancode9738]

It has never been easier to be indie developer, the hardest part is there are sooo many damn indie games coming out you won't get noticed.

[@ScottGarryFoster]

I've never seen an interviewer seem so bored whilst the guest is being so interesting.

[@joeysipos]

Industries evolve and platforms evolve. I for one am not seeing the hardship. My little Meta Quest game I have been working on for the past 2 years is starting to do well. I am getting a couple grand a month and my game is still in early access not even fully released. Mainly because standalone VR is a new emerging market and competition is less. Just takes a creative mind to adapt to emerging new technologies.

[@TrickyxMickey894]

What’s your game?

[@joeysipos]

@ Glider Sim on Meta Quest and Steam

[@kurku3725]

yes VR is different

[@benmidas]

i absolutely loved Braid, it was so good. Great work! 👏

[@georgezestanakis6788]

The moment when you realize that Jonathan Blow is basically the reference Quantic dreams used for designing Markus from Detroit Become Human.

[@FrankHarwald]

I can't believe I was over 1 hour into watching this interesting talk video between you & JB about game design, development & the game industry before I realized you were the gamedev of Pinstripe which I played years ago & didn't realize you even had a YT channel :D

[@Mekkablood]

I appreciate his perspective, and I really hope this doesn't sound harsh at all. But I'm seeing a pattern with these videos with certain people. Many who have had a hit and just don't have it in them to get to that same creative space they were in to make another one, and have trouble adapting to industry changes. Sometimes new technology also. This is an insanely hard thing to do technically, but also you have to mix that with a creative mindset that appeals to others, doing that over and over again is a monumental task. With that said, the space may be getting more competitive, but I still don't see many games that I would consider great products not doing well. Mullet Madjack, Animal Well, and many others I could list are showing where our heads should be at when developing a game. You really need something unique these days, customers are rewarding creativity more than they ever have before.

[@drumandbassob0007]

i dont think you really need to be that unique these days just put out a fun game thats not a buggy mess as thats "unique these days" lol also this guy has a pretty big option on game engine's like unity and unreal but hasnt used them for 20 years. I havnt used unity but worked in unreal for the last 3 years and love it, i proto type in blueprints which compiles instantly and then i move the heavy functions to C++ and its pretty quick to work with and can look great. Some people say UE5 is unoptimized but most just dont know how to get the most out of the engine and because theres many ue5 games that run like shit but thats not ue's fault its on the devs. look at the finals its not my cup of tea but the game runs really well end looks great

[@nathanfranck5822]

Since watching the hl2 documentary that just came out - it's startling how much they talk about feedback and play testing, like it's something that doesn't come up in conversation nearly enough for current game devs, but its so obviously necessary for building a good game

[@TheJeremyKentBGross]

There's a HL2 documentary?

[@ecarohgames]

@@TheJeremyKentBGross kzbin.info/www/bejne/j3TNf4dvpqydnpY :O

[@Rietto]

@@TheJeremyKentBGross Valve has it on their channel

[@jacobkirkbride1581]

Great episode! Always excited to see a new Jon Blow interview.

[@owencoopersfx]

I work with Unreal Engine all the time. As cool as the engine is, it’s not unusual for me to spend several hours every week just waiting for things to load/compile. It can definitely be very frustrating.

[@krish-ut9de]

Mr.Blow is an inspiration. Goodluck for your future projects sir!!!!!

[@Western_TV]

1.6 hours of Jonathan Blow 🦅🔥

[@ivanbraidi]

Jon is always a pleasure to listen to.

[@paryonix3d6657]

Great Interview. I too went down the "write your own engine" path, couldn't be any happier. Did it pay off? Well, time will tell 😀

[@microdavid7098]

It's a really cool skill to have. You'll be able to make games and also work on cool low level stuff which not many people do

[@jonny__b]

Excellent conversation! I love hearing what Jon has to say and I really enjoy your conversation style Thomas ☺ If I could give one small bit of unsolicited advice, I'd keep the focus on Jon whenever you do something like move the mic or say "yeah", rather than making a cut to you. I find the constant cutting slightly nauseating 😂otherwise loved the show!

[@sevenbluepixels]

This was a great conversation, and it hit close to home for me as a solo dev because I could really relate about the stress of working on a project for so long only to see it drift into the void so-to-speak. I worked on my game for almost 4 years and poured my heart and soul into it, so I'm proud of what I made even it wasn't a financial success, so I agree with Jon's philosophy regarding working on something you're proud of first and foremost. Also I think your strategy for 2025 makes a lot of sense, and I'll probably be leaning in that direction too. Thanks for the great interview and good luck with 2025!

[@Pontypants]

w episode

[@rapidstress2008]

Bro big fan!!! Am I first??

[@stickguy9109]

​@@rapidstress2008yes

[@luckyboy5nu]

hope your cooking something new up

[@Jsinebdjsmdbej]

33:00 terry davis was right

[@rossmillington8700]

hey, great interview man, great questions and very interesting answers, and jon is a good get for your show, congrats! I would just say though, everytime you move the mic with your hand you get this nasty handling noise which is really noticable and super bassy when wearing headphones. Luckily its mostly fixable though, if you just look for a high pass filter in whatever editing software your using and put it on your audio channel and mess around with the cutoff frequency a bit then the worst of it will be gone (or an EQ plug in and turn down the bass) and the headphone users will notice it much less. Also in the future, the microphone your using (Shure SM7B if i can see correctly) has a switch on the back specifically for this called the "bass rolloff" where the mic doesnt actually record all those bassy frequencies anyway so it removes the problem at the source, which would probably be an easier solution for the future. Apologies for the unprompted advice but i hope this helps

[@thomasbrush]

I appreciate the feedback! It’s been on my mind. A

[@Martinit0]

Jonathan Blow is practically the game dev equivalent of the gentleman scientist. Not only did he make his own game engine, no he even went out and designed and made an entire computer language specialized for game development on his own dime.

[@BronsonBragg]

The cuts to Thomas not talking and just listening/empathizing is crackin' me up. 1:06:24

[@MikeCampo]

Good chat! I've watched a lot of JBlow interviews and discussions and you guys have a good rapport/flow, unlike many others. Would love some followup discussions once you get your next project going and/or when Jon's next game launches to see how your approaches panned out.

[@falwiuhf]

Jonathan Blow is the one that most inspires me to write quelity code.

[@tokenguitardude]

Yoooo, totally awesome surprise to see Jonathan Blow on the podcast!

[@FaithGamer420]

It might not have been intentional but I like the long format interview. Good job, thanks for all these good interviews.

[@rwlurk]

Blow deleted the Braid people bought already from all its sales channels which was $10 and often discounted and replaced it with a $19.99 remastered version on desktop/console and a mobile version you can only play with a Netflix account

[@Inmbisat]

Seeing Jonathan blow in 4k is a dream came true ❤

[@pawejarosz7329]

Thank you, Thomas, for this interview and thank you Jonathan for sharing all your insights on the industry! ❤

[@MatijaHan]

Wow, gem after gem - what a conversation! You guys are giants. Thank you!

[@DandeHakker]

*unexpected, but greatly appreciated Looking forward to this one

[@ConorDrew]

With what was said about hiring before hand and is a waste of money, but it scales really well, once you have broken that level, and Jon hit some keys points. Understanding that the first half is done by x number of key people, writers, designers etc, then the others will start being more involved, so if you have a timeline of what each person does on a project, you will see overlaps and clear "non overlaps" So when the artists are coming on board and doing all the final art work, the writers will be not working on it, but if they are now starting the next project, it can keep leap frogging and everyone is busy at the same time, but not on the same project. and this is where it becomes cost effective with time, money and knowing the people. If you area small and waiting for your one project to wrap up, and then wait to start a new project, then contractors / part time hires will be so much more cost effective.

[@00jknight]

Jon speaks very confidently and is very knowledgable and opinionated, but is he really the right guy to ask? He's in such a unique position due to his fame and his financial situation, that his perspective isnt really representative of what it really takes to make an indie game today. Bring me on, instead, I'm a 10 year indie dev who's struggling to make it as Winterpixel Games now. I can tell you what it's really like to grind with no name recognition like Blow.

[@tequilasunset4651]

Not gonna lie, to me wishlists are 10% "bookmark for when i have the money/time spare to purchase this", 90% "bookmark to buy if this gets a substantial discount"

[@KD0YCL]

Great conversation. Love it. Please stop manhandling your mic - super annoying in the low freq.

[@Greymerk]

I looked for this comment so I could upvote it.

[@prodigybr]

100% agree with the idea that development is getting harder as the times goes by. In all areas, with all the patterns, articles, "optimization"...This podecast is one of the best of the series! Thanks!

[@parkavenue6006]

This interview is like seeing the difference between a run of the mill car guy and a guy who actually builds cars.

[@thomasbrush]

100%. Be encouraged: if a dummy like me can make games you can too!

[@parkavenue6006]

@thomasbrush you're not a dummy. Sorry if I implied that. Even run of the mill car guys know a thing or two about cars more than the average person. I should've been kinder with my word selection. Thanks for taking it easy on me

[@theonewithoutidentity]

1:31:44 I really like what Subset games did with FTL, which is they pushed an update for the game in which an advert for their new game was shown, which is how I found out they had a new game and then I bought it. But it requires you already own a popular title on the platform.

[@iamvfx]

6:33 THE WITNESS SPOILERS ALERT, THE WITNESS SPOILERS ALERT

[@iamvfx]

The spoiler ends at 7:01

[@1337pianoman]

so unnecessary too!

[@joshuadonahue5871]

Bump

[@james-s-smith]

Why did he do that?! RUDE!!

[@AndrzejGieraltCreative]

it's just gameplay footage of literally 1 puzzle

[@shotoutgames8823]

Didn't see this coming. Blow with Brush

[@nedraHarden]

I’m a mobile app developer and we work fully remote and we are highly efficient. Saves the company tons of money

[@RickyWiild]

Does your company need any C# Unity developers?

[@N7sensei]

I can't imagine myself being able to write proper code in the whirlwinds of an open office environment. Full remote or nothing. I never ever want to commute to an office ever again.

[@gardian06_85]

the "building a brand" is kind of tricky especially for Indies where many indies want to go off and make something different from the thing they made before, too where those people who got the previous game might not be interested in the next game because it is too different. Like for Super Giant Bastion was seen as an Action adventure almost brawler game, but then Pyier was seen as a sports game, so people who really like Bastion for the Action almost brawler combat would be like "what is this soccer + basketball game"; then Hades would be seen as a return to form. with Jonathan's games people might not have seen Braid as a puzzle game out right, so when The Witness rolled around it would have been too divergent, and I real feel that players are much more sensitive to Genre and mechanics then they are too "it was made by X" there are players that will jump at "it was made by X" but even those would be re-enforced by the genre and mechanics similarities. on the Statement about "advertising another game on the news feed of Steam" the only limitation is that the game must be available on the platform, and you must have some association with it, so you could advertise through your game's news feed (which will show up in the user's library) about a new game you have made, but you can't advertise like an Activision game.

[@RetroBreak]

Fantastic interview! Been really enjoying them recently, great guests! Keep it up, one day I'll start making a game again and these are so full of invaluable information!

[@iancherabier5920]

Excellent interview, thanks Thomas for sharing it! ☺️

[@emanuel-alvgard]

Thank you so much for bringing Jonathan on! Loved the episode!

[@thomasbrush]

You bet :)

[@mezzanine510]

beautiful interview, thanks for this

[@haroldasraz]

Some ideas on what the Game Industry needs to address: *Release the game once they are fully finished. *Make games fun (no virtue signalling) *Return ownership of the games to the gamers (DRM-free, tangled/physical copy). I want someone to release a game on a Superman Memory Crystal so I could exist for 1000,000,000 years. *Make games to be aesthetically beautiful, from packaging/presentation to the game (beauty is more objective than subjective) *Read old books to create something new.