How He Sold Over 960,000 Copies Of His Games w/

[@thomasbrush]

► Play Thronefall: store.steampowered.com/app/2239150/Thronefall/ ► Get 50% off Full Time Game Dev for New Year's: fulltimegamedev.mykajabi.com/ftgd ► Learn how to become a full time game dev, free: www.clkmg.com/fulltimegamedev/webinar

[@aykutsan4099]

I think I missed your 50% off campaign. Is there any chance of extending this period,

[@JonasTyroller]

Thanks for having me. Podcast is on fire lately!

[@thomasbrush]

Thanks for coming on the heels of Jonathan Blow and Mark Brown. That takes GUTS.

[@almostalwaysadam]

Very articulate and well thought out philosophy. More helpful (to me) than Jonathan Blow and Mark Brown. Thanks for doing this!

[@AntonMDev]

@@almostalwaysadamJonas is one of the best, definitely. His success is no luck at all.

[@taliaspencer9093]

You are my fav game dev so far. Thank you for your clear mindedness & your logic, and bravery in the face of critique.

[@DirectionGaming]

Thanks!

[@DavidWehleGames]

I love how engineer-minded Jonas is, it all makes sense when he talks about it. More and more I see a delineation from the engineer-focused devs and the art-focused ones. I'm so emotional when it comes to feedback and criticism (kinda like how Thomas mentioned for himself) but Jonas just takes it as data and modifies the input parameters! Super cool

[@oddeyesgames]

Ok I think it's official now. This is the best game dev podcast series hands down! Thank you for all this Thomas!

[@thomasbrush]

Glad you like them!

[@nonefvnfvnjnjnjevjenjvonej3384]

This is beyond video games. What Jonas is talking about is essentially how you build great businesses in almost any industry. There are deep secrets of how to actually do a startup where it's an incremental search function that you're running over and over again in parallel over different sorts of different data sets and trying to come up with the best answer. Love to interview.

[@orchard800]

100%. I got more out of this as an app/SaaS developer than a hobbyist game dev.

[@Martinit0]

Notably, his design process of making several prototypes and testing them with users is more effort upfront than making a single shoot-and-pray game.

[@taliaspencer9093]

oh my god i love this guest. Literally a breath of fresh air. THANK YOU. Clear logic and rationale. The amount of times I heard excuses from people taking crit at what should have been the best art school in the world was ridiculous. TAKE THE HITS. Crit makes you better, if you allow it. The more you can hear it without falling into an emotional wreck, the more capable you can be.

[@sinkingdutchman7227]

Jonas is German in the best possible way 😊

[@GhastlyGamesLLC]

Stop it Thomas, you're spoiling us

[@El_Diablo_12]

It’s kinda hilarious, because for the first 15 mins he described ‘popperian epistemology’. As his secret for success. Basically the idea that in every field, knowledge/success is achieved by 1) identify the problem 2) creatively guess solutions and, 3) test those guesses against reality.

[@N7sensei]

"Listen to the player's problems, but not necessarily their solutions" Exactly. I've been saying this for 20 years.

[@JasonStorey]

That opening topic with prototyping, you hit the nail on the head saying its not just games its core business praxis. In particular the book "the lean startup" by eric reis talks a lot about "validated learning" which is that same idea of not investing in hunches without getting data. make a guess/hypothosis... then test it, re-evaluate, run new experiment. The more you survey the land before you jump, the less risky the fall will be.

[@El_Diablo_12]

Yup, in every field it’s the same concept. It’s called Popperian epistemology. Post the problem, guess multiple solutions, test those solutions against reality

[@SirCalalot]

I am totally here for all these vids. I know you said you didn’t read KZbin comments, but on the off chance that you see this, Thomas - thank you for keeping me excited and enthused for my solo dev journey. Keep up with the incredible content!

[@thomasbrush]

@@SirCalalot this comment is devistating. I’m officially in a spiral. I’m a fraud. I don’t know if I can make another video

[@SirCalalot]

@@thomasbrush OhYou.gif

[@Tightlinesfishingshow]

​@thomasbrush you crazy son of a gun! Love the vids man and super excited for TT

[@lassebjorseth]

Thanks for this podcast, Thomas! As mentioned by others. This is hands down the best game dev podcast out there! Keep them coming. So inspiring, learning a lot from them!

[@SuhweeSoftware]

Thank you so much for this content man, this was already my favorite podcast but you uping the ante lately with all the huge names! Super insightful, thanks a lot

[@shibii]

Having following Jonas for... so long (I can't even recall), that was nice to see you 2 sitting down and talking. Gratz Jonas on the really big launch btw!

[@Alaabale]

I think I am addicted to this podcasts now to the degree I am afraid of the day I woke up and don't find a new episode

[@TheSoprah]

EASILY the best collab. Funny and yet so informative. Not so much about emotions but rather "critical layers" to rely on when designing and developing a game

[@Ironroc]

Holy cow I've never been so happy to have a backlog of dev interviews to listen to and watch. Great job on these Thomas, and thanks for being awesome, Jonas!

[@RangTangStudios]

I really like how well-thought-out and measure Jonas is.

[@facelessanon]

Thomas keeps getting cool people in his podcast. Chris, Jonas, and more. Hopefully Thomas Brush interviews Code Monkey, he's big in the game development community.

[@quickaslight945]

Well deserved, Jonas is such a great dev! Congrats!

[@Tightlinesfishingshow]

These podcast are so valuable its actually suprising they are free. There is no excuse for people to say they cant be educated in this field without costing an arm and a leg. Thomas brush is in my opinion, the leading force of many peoples inspiration to this amazing profession!

[@nights312312]

Thank you Thomas and Jonas, really enjoyed this podcast!!!

[@jernaugurgeh451]

Just finished watching the Marc Brown episode, and you've already dropped a Jonas? Awesome!

[@yunggolem4687]

Thomas says he's worried about getting old & not keeping up... while the cutting edge of indie is realizing we went mostly in wrong directions the last 15 years & backtracking to the 90s/early 00s to branch out again. There's no such thing as being left behind, because the principles of design are eternal & the opportunities for it are omnipresent. You only need to be able to read & adapt to the context of the design constraints to "keep up", then you can employ whatever level of design understanding you have achieved into any context.

[@gandordev]

35:40 Another way to approach feedback is through humility. In my line of work (which is not game dev, but regular computer systems dev), I have to take feedback all the time and I see some coworkers always justifying themselves instead of shut up and listen. And the good part is that even if I listen to the feedback I don't always implement it because it goes back to what he's saying, understand the problem first and line up with the project goals. I had to interact with a lot of people to figure this out and I'm surprised he understood it at a young age. A trend that I see in these podcasts is that all successful game devs share high maturity levels that help them understand people's feelings.

[@animatormark1]

Great conversation all around and great nuggets from Jonas. I really like the questions you asked Thomas, my favorite game dev podcast for sure.

[@360dom360]

This is the third interview of yours I've watched. Great stuff. Subbed.

[@clifforderskineart]

There are so many great tips here! Huge thanks to Thomas and Jonas for sharing their insights, truly inspiring!

[@eldarado1183]

This recent interview series feels like a therapy session for Thomas, helping him process his doubts about the possible failure of his game. He doesn’t seem confident about his project, though it looks like there will be an early access release in the future!

[@thomasbrush]

No early access! But yes, plenty of doubts

[@eldarado1183]

​@@thomasbrush Like many viewers, I find the concept of Twisted Tower both fun and engaging! As Jonas said, just filter the feedback from others and trust your vision. Looking forward to your game!

[@funkysloth2902]

Thomas you are slaying us with these freakin' podcasts man. It's just too much goodness to take in

[@harneetsingh9420]

Damn back to back hits, thanks Thomas 🙂 cant wait to get home and watch this. Jonas is one of my all time fav gamedev, i used to watch his videos when he was a small youtuber. Damn time flies and it feels so good to see Jonas at this stage, guy is just built different 🫡 Thomas chirstmas is not here yet but you sure brought us gifts earlier 😃❤ many thanks.

[@rohitpardhi3924]

Thank you, Thomas, for these amazing podcasts.

[@thomasbrush]

You're welcome!

[@sswenr567]

Absolutely chopping it up with the guests lately my man. Good job 🔥

[@k1ng_chicken]

Ah shoot, the livestreams are gone! Those had some great stuff.

[@МаксимАгрызко]

Thanks guys for the interview, it’s helpful and looks like my puzzle metroid will not be finished, you stopped me in a right place. Thanks, will try another great idea

[@massithegame8753]

Hi Thomas, did you remove your live reviews of demos?

[@rafaelhuard]

Wow. So much content in the last week. That's awesome.

[@SuperEssenceOfficial]

love how jonas's impression of a player giving advice has an American accent.

[@Nobody6146]

You say you don’t read comments, but you do and you’re doing a great job at it. This podcast had rocky foundations and serious criticisms that have all nearly been addressed in these later episodes. Keep up the good work. If you’re as good with feedback on games as you are on these videos, your game will be fine!

[@thomasbrush]

Doing my best!

[@ivanopol]

I wanted to see a review of the games, but I couldn't find them.

[@Syr3]

Dude, Jonas is a genius. I like how well he explains complex topics and ideas.

[@HopperGameDevelopment]

Nice podcast episode. Jonas is good at articulating solutions to some of the issues in game development.

[@EthanoCreates]

These are soooo good, I can't keep up, can't wait to watch this one tho!!!

[@thomasbrush]

Hope you enjoy!

[@ghabrielF]

Thomas is such a good interviewer, always asking smart questions

[@shavais33]

That's very interesting, the notion of designing as you go, rather than all up front, and basically trying out multiple versions of things and essentially doing AB tests as you go. It makes perfect sense, I mean, large retail companies do a huge amount AB testing in order to try to continually increase the market success of their products and their advertising. That's another thing they teach you in business/marketing class, is to define your business goals up front, and the reasons for them, as opposed to defining exactly what the product or its advertising will be. They say it helps you set yourself up for success, because you can ask yourself whether or not some given decision or another is likely to move you toward or away from your goals.

[@glennsimpson115]

I absolutely love this channel as a solo developer I’m exited to show off my demo

[@3DPrinterAcademy]

did you guys plan the matching sweaters?!?

[@johnteaguefilm]

Jonas is a really smart guy! Great talk

[@ah_fascinating]

Excellent, really enjoying the podcast, the guests are wonderful!

[@Norritt42]

I think the gold Jonas is handing out i missed from Thomas. Its not a step wise process validating along the path it's a extensive search for the optimal solution use the seintific principle. As a startup founder im going to show this video to my coach. Jonas you are awsome and thank ypu Thomas for a great interview.

[@BronsonBragg]

Make that 960,001 copies sold. 🎉

[@ArksideGames]

*960,002 🤣🤣

[@ThatsaRandomName]

@@ArksideGames 960,003! 😅

[@Populous3Tutorials]

it was already OVER 960 000 copies. yes im fun at parties

[@ThatsaRandomName]

@@Populous3Tutorials fake news 😡

[@BronsonBragg]

@Populous3Tutorials Don't lie. You don't go to parties.

[@NeatGames]

This was one of the best interviews :D

[@FabioGemesio]

What clarity of mind has this guy ❤️

[@Martinit0]

Now over 18,000 reviews. Many would be happy to have that as sales number.

[@eduwhan]

The two-sentence pitch is there 1.) to attempt to captivate the player/publisher/executive-producer by how novel/sellable the game is. 2.) Give a mental snap-shot/gameplay-framework to the player/publisher/executive-producer as to the game/game-mechanics. The listener should be able to gauge how provocative/novel (or standard) and scope the game is just by the pitch.

[@pancakeflux]

I forget who said it, I think it was an author, saying that you should get feedback from your trusted group for knowing something might be working or not (feel good or not) but not how to change it or fix it. Use your own judgement and ideas to make it work.

[@studioprimitive]

Jonas speaks like an engineer. We develop products using a methodical approach outlining the entire design of the product including requirements and constraints far before a block of metal is ever cut for a prototype. It sounds like the indie games industry is starting to mature and realize that rigor is required upfront to put out a quality product.

[@inevgames]

In the first video of my channel, some people got angry with me when I said that “the first 6 months of game development should be dedicated to research and learning”. I'm glad to see that successful people think like me.

[@AirmanCS]

Great post cast, im 36 and the more I see how successful games have approached their development the more I feel all this years working on games, have prepared me for the upcoming challenges... 2025 is gonna be very interesting

[@OMGtrple]

Banger guest! You should get Laura Fryer on next!

[@DylonDylonDylon]

DAMN, BACK TO BACK TO BACK BANGERS

[@joc_a.b]

My God! I can't keep up with all this awesome content you've thrown out lately! It's like you don't even care!

[@thomasbrush]

That's the goal!

[@gamedevai]

Probably this is the best advice to date. Thanks........🎮😃

[@jevestobs9814]

As a person who wants to make games but doesn't, small but good sounds like a great idea. Nothing makes me pay more attention to a game than being left craving more, as long as more is on the table.

[@gameboardgames]

Amazing slew of episodes Thomas ! Jonas Tyroller is the boss.

[@kyoseoul]

I think what Jonas says is very intuitiv and easy to understand, but I often kind of get confused about what Thomas talks about. I feel like podcasts are at its best when its less of an interview and more like a friendly talk, with a different vibe. I wish you the best for the future and keep on improving.

[@aleeph4919]

I would love to see you try out a more free talking conversation format. The question format right now, will sometimes interrupt the flow of an already interesting conversation that probably will transiton into another topic naturally. I would only use prescript questions when the conversations goes dry or is too repetitive.

[@neilfosteronly]

Jonas Tyroller searching for fun video really helped me change my game for the better. I was making a crazy taxi like clone but felt the funniest part was hitting pedestrians. So redid my game to be more like a GTA with races.

[@dreamisover9813]

Awesome, another Jonas and Thomas crossover episode!

[@MrWizarddog]

Hey Thomas! Hope everything is okay! I missed your day 2 webinar live stream today. Was looking forward to it. Nonetheless, I hope all is well! 😇💙

[@CloudyGamingCG]

wooaaaahhhh🤩

[@godonholiday]

I mean no disrespect, but what makes this interview so good, it’s that what Thomas doesn’t know, pulls out the details from Jonas. Rapid prototyping should be standard. Fail fast and find the fun. This is at the heart of not building your dream game. You have no idea if it’s even anyone else’s ok game.

[@prokeyG]

WHY YOU PRIVATE VIDEO OF 100K WORKSHOP I WANT TO WATCH IT

[@najeeullah4188]

Bro when will I find the time to watch them all now that you are dropping one every other day 😄

[@thomasbrush]

You'll never catch up

[@najeeullah4188]

@@thomasbrush I will try at least

[@ivanopol]

Very interesting podcast. Something to think about

[@peezieforestem5078]

Since you're on a roll with these, do you mind inviting Tom Francis? He released Tactical Breach Wizards this year, and it was very successful.

[@bonestudios7777]

I love your podcasts dear friend, keep it up!

[@the_nightbringer]

Amazing series Thomas

[@BloodAssassin]

Can you do a podcast with Eric Barone?

[@phdost3267]

Regarding pitching StarWars... it's not about making something simple but something that can easily communicate its appeal. That's very different. A poster of StarWars is enough to describe the fantasy it's selling you without needing to understand what you're looking at

[@MichaelPohoreski]

*TL:DR;* 1. Idea 2. Prototype 3. Analyze what worked, what didn't. 4. When good enough ship, else go to step 1.

[@blakasmurf]

Damn this is like a dev glowup for Jonas! Nice!

[@colin_actually]

What a great episode.

[@k1ng_chicken]

Great interview!

[@adamtilinger2005]

This was such a missed opportunity. Jonas Tyroller has a very strong engineer/researcher approach to design, and has some really interesting views. Unfortunately insead of discussing those - especially the less conventional ones, I had the feeling that Thomas Brush tried to force in as much game design phrases as possible. I quit at around 50 minutes as my jogging round ended, so if anything interesting happend afterwards, please let me know.

[@ShellworldGames]

On prototyping, what if I already have a fairly detailed idea of the genre, and even game systems, of the game I want to make?

[@Devy_]

My issue has always been getting people interested enough just to test a prototype. I've released some small free prototypes on itch to see what ppl think and no one really tries it or responds. No audience. My own small circle of fam and friends are not the best for feedback because they aren't really interested in many games to begin with. Great interview guys🎉

[@alexandruneag4845]

I really got addicted by Thronefall, it is such a good game.

[@ghostpeppered4524]

A good prototype answers exactly one question. The engineer's creativity is redirected to "how to make the prototype as cheaply as possible?" In this way we see, there must be many prototypes, because there must be many questions and answers. (ie. How tall is a countertop? Is there a standard for that? Are there laws that require a ramp? Is this algorithm or game mechanic patented? etc.) But prototypes are pre-profit, therefore they must be cheap. This is why prototypes are in the abstract. The point is that the dev who writes one idea in a notebook and works on coding it for 3 years before releasing to find out it gets 60 positive reviews the subsequent 12 months... that was time wasted. These failures have a high ratio (9/10 businesses fail). Prototyping exponentially increases the likelihood of an successful outcome.That's because you found empirical evidence/data from external market validation. It is unbiased, and a significant enough sample to have confidence it will also be true at scale. But that is engineering--not art. It is only easy to confuse because making endless game mechanics is costing you nothing (but time). If it were a stadium or cathedral, it would become obvious real quick.

[@indieApocalipse]

no lo entiendo, esto es increíble, primero Jhonathan Blow, luego Chris y Mark y ahora a Jonas Tyroller, quien sigue, Dani? este podcast es increíble

[@AlexGorskov]

Really love those! Very cool!

[@AndrzejGieraltCreative]

Man I love the idea of making 20 prototypes but, here's my question - 3 questions: 1) How do you even come up with 20 ideas? 2) How do you honestly have the time to build that many prototypes? If you have 6 months to release a game, maybe a prototype takes 2 weeks to make. x20 = 40 weeks = A WHOLE EXTRA 10 MONTHS!!! Or should your prototype take less than a day to make? 3) Not a question but, if I have say, 3 vague ideas that I think are kind of cool but they are just not solid/tight enough, why should I even bother prototyping? I feel like the whole 20 prototypes thing only applies if you are a "digital toymaker" - you just love making games no matter what you make. But if you specifically got into game dev for a certain genre. The majority of genres are already designed. 1st person shooters, RPGs, platformers, horror games all have unchanging pillars and I don't see why you'd need to make 20 prototypes if you already know the genre you're interested in. So how do you approach design with a bit less of an experimental starting point? How do you know which genre is simple enough to what you want to make that isn't too overscoped? I am this close to saying that game dev is just not worth it. If you want to be a digital toymaker, you are so so lucky. If you want to convey an experience and the majority of your ideas are narrative-focused, good luck. That was long winded but I really hope somebody contends with this comment.

[@vasanthsarathy8476]

I had the same question as you question #2. I completely buy into this approach -- Design Thinking - of game dev. But is the prototyping very low fidelity? In design thinking there is this notion that prototypes are meant to test specific design-hypothesis. Applying that here, it seems like every design choice can have prototypes --for e.g., prototyping an art style might just need some images and asking people what they think. And a mechanic hypothesis might be tested with a greyboxed prototype. Im not sure that I have this right, but I too grapple with the question what should a prototype be, and how long should it take to develop one? Does anyone have advice on this?

[@D.KRyley-mq1do]

@@vasanthsarathy8476 You're right. Your prototype can just be grey boxes or it can be images layered on top of each other like a board game if you are trying to do a strategy game. MVP of a prototype is something that works enough that you get the feel for what's happening. It shouldn't take long to make because it's going to be very basic. To the OP I think you should just try it and figure it out. For narrative focused games prototyping is a lot harder due to the game feel not really being there without the rest of the game to support it.

[@fceruti]

Thomas is firing all cylinders!

[@ivankaradzhov3610]

Please add timestamps :(

[@nerdError0XF]

Just have a youtube channel with 200k subs, easy

[@binky777]

yes and millions of views.

[@blindlama]

Amazing game, played it a lot on my ROG Ally X. Really addictive

[@KyleDelazy]

Really love them is it possible to get like a student from full time game dev on one of these?

[@DbugII]

The part at 54:50 is so true, specially if you are doing a niche game, because having people get the game, and then refund it and leave a negative comment is very very very bad. I released my game on Steam about 10 days ago, and I made super super sure that people would know in the first two paragraphs that this was not a AAA game with fabulous graphics and symphonic music: No, "it's a pixel art retro game running on an actual emulated 80ies computer", so people are warned immediately :)

[@FillMakesGames]

Is this on apple or Spotify?

[@thomasbrush]

I’m gonna get these episodes up next week

[@Ustudio-w9s]

so good podcasts