ATR 72-500 Crash: Understanding the Fatal Flat Spin & Severe Icing Dangers

[@giovanno6321]

One thing i admire about aviation is that everyone is shocked when an accident happens, and at the same time they never jump to any conclusions out of respect for all the lives lost until the official investigation is published. As a brazilian, this accident was the first one i witnessed and it shocked me more than any other i had ever heard about.

[@TheMrdhyde]

Wouldn't want anybody else to explain this. You are my ATR guru.

[@kcnairnair7299]

Aye!

[@fernandoamaral200]

Também canal aviãos e música.

[@RobertoRMOLA]

@@fernandoamaral200 Você só pode estar brincando!

[@fernandoamaral200]

@@RobertoRMOLA 👍

[@RobertoRMOLA]

@@fernandoamaral200 Comparar o Magnar com o Lito é forçar muito, hein?

[@leokimvideo]

Finally someone who knows what he's talking about without just ripping info from others, a rarity on KZbin

[@flightdispatcherNAT]

Thank you for the excellent explanation Captain! As a flight dispatcher, releasing an aircraft in a known severe icing area is certainly a no go. RIP to all souls on board.

[@mrbushpilot]

What? It's none of your business. Not your decision if it goes

[@guyseeten2755]

@@mrbushpilot He says he's a flight dispatcher, not an ATC, so yes, can be his business and his decision.

[@SD_Trojan_7]

@@guyseeten2755 neither of Bush Pilot's two brain cells were working when he made that comment.

[@KoiranenAerospace]

@@guyseeten2755 stupid decision. That would mean ATR72 stays on ground 20-30 days every winter in Finland.

[@eduardoqueiroz1457]

Alguns detalhes,alguns relatos dizem que estava sobre( gelo extremo),na altitude que estavam voando,e os especialistas dizem que está aeronave,fica num situação crítica voando nestas condições, lamentável, que Deus conforte a todos. 😔🙌🇧🇷

[@jatigre1]

This particular time of the year here in southern Brazil the temperatures can drop to below zero Celsius. Add that the humidity levels close to 99% and you have a recipe for disaster.

[@AlfredoSegundo81]

Adding a little bit more context. It is a common misconception that Brasil is an entirely tropical country. We're "very tall", with latitudes going from 4 N to 33 S. The airport that the flight was coming from (SBCA) stays at 25.00 S, 53.50 O (below tropics), and the one it was going to (SBGR) stays at 23.43 S, 46.47 O (between tropics).

[@kjp76]

As soon as I saw the video of the plane going down, I thought that sooner or later you would analyze the circumstances leading to the accident. I didn't expect that you wouldn't wait for the report of the Air Accident Investigation Commission. I admire the respect with which you treat the case in question.

[@dashriprock4308]

I observed people on the ground (video) wearing winter attire. Knew right then and there it was catastrophic icing like the American Eagle flight in 1994. I do not know what the MSA or MVA is there, but it was definitely an emergency situation requiring deviation from ATC instructions to save the lives of those on board. Getting below 12 thousand would have been my first thought with massive ice accretion. I would have been hoofing it down pronto to get out of it at the first sign of rapid ice accretion and repeated reports from other pilots, bearing in mind what happened to that American Eagle flight 30 years prior. Definitely time sensitive with the ATR.

[@deano392]

@@dashriprock4308 Yes and why even fly at that height to begin with, with the extreme weather present, minimise the risk.

[@renanlopes9400]

@@dashriprock4308 I live 30 minutes from where the plane crashed. It became very cold all of a sudden on Friday. On Thursday at the same hour it was like 25C and easily T-Shirt weather... And then in the next day it was like 18C, cloudy and very cold at the time it happened. I don't know anything about aviation and weather. Just wanted to mention this.

[@Vecchete]

​@@renanlopes9400 Dude, 18C cold? I was born in Sao Paulo, I would never call it cold weather. When I lived in Brazil/Sao Paulo I considered cold something like from 3 to 10 C. PS : I know temperature drops significantly with more altitude, not talking about that.

[@augustosantos4511]

Thank you Magnar. Just a small correction. Destination was not SBKP but SBGR (Sao Paulo - Guarulhos International)

[@fernandoamaral200]

SBCA but SBGR

[@brianbrotherston5940]

His whole video is just one small CORRECTION !!

[@hotsoup1001]

The terror of the crew and passengers is hard to imagine.

[@JavierBrent]

Nah ! That is easy to imagine. Better than dying from Covid or Cancer after months of pain.

[@jetthicks6658]

I heard from a pilot it would be like an uncomfortable rollercoaster ride, like a 4G turbulence. Not "horror" like some people say

[@Victorhsaa]

@@jetthicks6658 imagine being on a rollercoaster ride knowing theres no break… No horror at all

[@brunoxd151]

⁠@@jetthicks6658a rollercoaster ride knowing that you Will die at the end. How would that not be horrifying??

[@ezeetunes]

@@jetthicks6658 It would be a combination of weightlessness combined with helplessness and utter confusion, yeah like a roller coaster ...... .....? At least you know the ride is expected and comes to an end on a rollercoaster.

[@SamuelBarringer]

My condolences to all the families involved in the plane crash.

[@josephcameron530]

Thank you Captain for the excellent presentation of this very sad event.

[@rotaero]

We, Brazilians and Aviation Enthusiasts, pilots and ATR lovers, thank you for your analysis, Captain. It was a tragedy and a very sad day for all of us Brazilians. Thank you, fly safe.

[@hassanzulficar1257]

The entire aviation world is saddened by this. The amount of ignorance displayed by certain Brazilians is also sad, people with little knowledge in aviation attributing blame to the ATR. Thinking planes are old simply because they have propellers or the seats arent in best shape and avoiding to fly them.

[@RobertoRMOLA]

@rotaero Really??!! I'm a pilot for 47 years, have flown ATRs for 8 years and I CERTAINLY do NOT "love" them...

[@thecaynuck]

Your comment has 72 likes, I'm going to keep it there, for ATR72.

[@andreribeiro12]

@@RobertoRMOLA, sorry to hear that, 8 years is a lot of time insisting in something you don’t like….

[@JackieO_LAX]

@@RobertoRMOLAwhat are you talking about? @rotaero never said you had to “love” them. He was simply thanking the pilot who made this video.

[@oldmanc2]

I immediately thought of you the ATR expert. Thank you for this calm professional video of this awful accident

[@david_cazalwa]

0:23 His destination was actually Guarulhos airport, which is the main airport here in our country. Viracopos could be his emergency alternate airport, but since he stalled so rapidly he didn't have enough time to do anything

[@MrSuzuki1187]

Well said captain! This from a retired UAL 767 captain. I was a 737 copilot based at Chicago O’Hare when the ATR crashed in 1994. What we learned from that accident was that the FAA allowed ATR to certify their planes for flight in icing conditions based on computer models rather than have the prototype flown behind a water tanker that sprayed water on the ATR creating real icing conditions. This had NEVER been done before! We later found that those computer models were wrong. The corrupt FAA was responsible for that accident in Roselawn, Indiana, although the flight crew violated flight manual procedures and lowered the flaps in moderate icing.

[@alexc5449]

Very interesting! I highly doubt ATR has done any REAL testing to simulate icing conditions even to this day. That checklist is an absolute joke. Why on earth would you disengage the autopilot AFTER you've added Max Thrust to an aircraft you assume to be contaminated with severe icing, where control surfaces are likely ineffective, likely pitching the nose up and causing a stall? Does anyone at ATR have common sense? ATR is responsible.

[@FlywithMagnar]

As @MrSuzuki1187 wrote above, after the accident in 1994, an ATR 72 was flown behind a tanker spraying supercooled water drops with a diameter 4 times larger than the certification requirement. The aircraft behaved well. Afterwards, other aircraft types did the same tests, including Embraer Brasilia and SAAB 2000.

[@JavierBrent]

1990's Liberal FAA. They also deleted all EFATO Maneuvers requirements and Go Arounds From Flare Requirements for before solo maneuvers requirements. They did that in Clinton year 1998. Liberals always trying to pass turkeys and chickens as pilots by deleting requirements to pass. I took EFATo 4kinds of maneuvers in year 1996. They saved the life of 3 of my fellow students later on. Liberals accepting inepts via cutting requirements.

[@alexc5449]

​@@FlywithMagnar Is a report or any reliable information about the testing done made public and found online? I found this comment on a forum: "Nobody mentioned this, though as a result of the Roselawn crash, the ATR-72 got "tested" for susceptibility for icing, using a USAF tanker spraying super cooled water(-droplets). The ATR-72 testing was nearly immediately abandoned due to the extreme ice build-up (behind the deicing boots, compromising the aileron use) and the ATR-72 was subsequently banned from operations / being used at higher latitudes / cold weather operations (and "banned" to be used in warmer climates, now seemingly Brazil in extreme icing/winter conditions still being not "warm" enough)."

[@FlywithMagnar]

​@@alexc5449 This information is not correct. When you read NTSB's report after the accident with American Eagle flight 4184, page 94 onwards, you can see that the icing tanker tests were extensive. The tests were followed up by wind tunnel testing, and flight tests with artificial ice shapes attached to the wings. The conclusion was that when the aircraft was exposed to freezing rain, ice ridges could form behind the deicing boots. This resulted in aileron reversal at an AoA below the stick shaker threshold, as experienced by Flight 4184. ATR then designed new deicing boots which covered a larger area of the wings. Then, the aircraft was flown behind the icing tanker with water droplet size 3-4 times larger than certification criteria. The tests proved that no ice formed behind the new deicing boots. ATR also revised their icing procedures, and installed an Automatic Performance Monitoring (APM) system that will alert the pilots whe ice accumulation degrades aircraft performance. Since then, all ice-related accidents and incidents happened because the pilots did not follow those guidelines.

[@JuninhoMicali]

I was in that EXACTLY airplane 2 weeks ago 22/07 travelling from São Paulo to Presidente Prudente (sbsp - sbdn) and it was a chock when I saw it in the news. RIP all the passengers and crew.

[@757Spy]

When an aviation tragedy like the ATR crash in Brazil happens, I go out of my way to avoid the news coverage. More often than not, the coverages is nothing more than uninformed breathless speculation. One of my favorite aviation channels is Fly with Magnar. I am so grateful for the effort you put into this informative video.

[@jonimoroni7475]

yep, always avoid mainstream media…independent sources are not beholden to corporate agendas.

[@meofnz2320]

@@jonimoroni7475 Yes the mainstream is dumb with incident reporting in their rush to publish. But all media is subject to agenda, whether personal or corporate. At least with mainstream media you know who you’re dealing with and can filter accordingly.

[@NoSugarThanks]

@@jonimoroni7475 And YT commment sections

[@Desi365]

and it's good for your mental health to not watch the sensationalist TV coverage

[@MrCaiobrz]

Oh I do the opposite, I love the mainstream media, SO STUPID. I laugh non-stop.

[@PMMM9]

This is the very best explanation that I’ve seen on KZbin regarding this tragedy

[@cmtedanielbarros]

Dear Captain Magnar. I'm a huge fan of your videos. I'm under training for ATR 72-600 and I was chocked about the accident because the Captain was my friend. We had worked as flight Instructor at the same time. Was a tragedy. We suppose he has entered in a Ice accretion area and lose the aircraft control. Now we need to wait the authorities conduct the investigation and show de causes.

[@FlywithMagnar]

I am very sorry to hear that. While icing might be a factor, we cannot speculate about what happened. We must let the investigators do their job.

[@Jumbojetfueler]

First time I've seen you...and you sir, get an A+ for a perfect explanation!

[@alansimpson596]

Excellent explanation. I'm a former private pilot ( I can no longer hold such a licence due to old age) and today I listened to a TV reporter saying that the aircraft engines may have stalled due to icing. If you have no flying experience then it's understandable to interpret an aircraft stalling as similar to your car stalling. In an aircraft it means something entirely different insofar as a stall means that the aircraft is flying too slowly for the wings to create lift and keep the plane airborne. It's something we practice a lot during training by deliberately stalling the aircraft so that we can learn how to recover from an unintentional stall. However, if the contour of the wings has been altered by the build up of ice then you are in real trouble. Most modern airliners have anti-icing boots on the leading edge of the wings to prevent the build up of ice.

[@AEMoreira81]

The video of the flat spin is what is hard to avoid here. That has all the hallmarks of icing, and the ATR 42/72 has a bad habit of not taking icing well. There will be an investigation, but I'd be surprised if they don't suspect icing.

[@MrCobb-rq8iv]

@@AEMoreira81 agree it's impossible with the small air surface of today's empanague systems, one tiny rudder; wow trying to make everything look like a C172 is a recipe for loss of spin recovery. BTW ever see a B24 or B25 in a flat spin? How about a twin beech, OV-1 , OV10 or WartHog? When they learn to put triple tails on these, spin recovery might be possible; that said foolish pilots flying on auto in icing conditions, this is the result, too little too late. I even had triple tails on my CH-21C

[@thomassheehan4193]

Boots are from last century. The wings are heated now with bleed air.

[@MrWeezy312]

what are anti icing boots?

[@Tundracats-u9k]

​@@MrWeezy312I believe they are rubber diaphragms attached to the wing surfaces that inflate to break up the ice. I notice another commenter mentions that icing boots are old technology.

[@MichGoBIue]

Yes, very tragic. I do hope the industry at least learns from this accident so they can save lives. Thanks for the summary.

[@dashriprock4308]

After the crash of the American Eagle in 1994, I read that they relocated the ATRs to warmer latitudes. Nobody wanted to fly on them in the northern part of the US during the winter because of the that crash.

[@weldonyoung1013]

Icing can even occur in ground level warm temperatures, at the ATR's flight-level it is much cooler. But, I have heard one airline did restrict winter flying of their ATRs.

[@VictoriaWalker8]

​@@weldonyoung1013yeah probably this accident will teach everyone to not ignore icing conditions even in tropical and hot places and countries.

[@weldonyoung1013]

@@VictoriaWalker8 flight crews, pilots and co-pilots, should already know that. Just as the manufacturer of this aircraft do, previously ATR has send out special bulletins about avoiding ice with this aircraft.

[@rexfrew5392]

Very similar to American Eagle flight that crashed at Roselawn, Indiana. This is a fantastic aircraft! She just hates ice. Tons of ATR pilots knew this BEFORE the Roselawn crash. Guess the " new" modifications didn't mellow her out. Thanks Capt!

[@redbird444]

Yes, we did know. Many of us spoke up, but no one listened…until Roselawn.

[@v1n1c1u55anto5]

So its shitty. Hope Embraer launches its turbo prop soon, thats a trustworthy company

[@chuckkirkpatrick6712]

Let's not forget Colgan....

[@micheldriessen5081]

Flying night cargo over Europe and in the tropics in any season, I had to deal with heavy icing conditions. Never have I experienced a situation in which the ATR systems or aerodynamics experienced a problem. Not in 3000 hours. Respect your speeds and radar indications and you should be safe.

[@karmascotland8]

I don't know where your quote above that this 'is a fantastic aircraft' is evidenced from? Yes, it has operated many safe flights over its' time/ops. All aircraft have 'vulnerabilities' in certain circumstances. There have been way too many 'known' vulnerabilities with this aircraft type even with very experienced pilots. Put 'succinctly', I and my family will never fly on this aircraft. Full Stop. Icing 'death-trap', (yes, 'icing' issues are ever-present in 'hot' countries ;-) poor wing-loading characteristics and a 'pig' to land in certain meteo conditions/load. Just avoid, if you can IMEO.

[@SpeedChecked]

Thank you very much, captain. I am Brazilian, and I am also a cabin crew member for a European carrier. I was expecting very much a video from your channel, so again, thank you.

[@masalamix4647]

Thank you for your service. We will keep you and all your crew members in our family prayers 🙏

[@LG-hp5wh]

Good analysis thank you! I do think we can speculate accurately here…. There’s no other event that I can think of which could cause an aircraft like this to stall and enter a flat spin from normal cruise flight with both engines operating and remain intact till impact except for an encounter with sever icing. The big question is why didn’t the crew avoid the area all together and could the ice build up so fast surprising the crew so that the crew didn’t have time to escape or did the crew not handle the encounter with ice correctly… lots to learn from this accident in due course once the investigation is complete.

[@Paradyski]

Thanks Magnar. I was wondering if you will analyse this case and I didn't have to wait long. Many thanks

[@issamkarkour]

RIP. Thank you so much for your explanation, you are a very good reference. Your wisdom is much appreciated.

[@Coops777]

Thankyou Magnar. It is distressing to watch such a large aircraft flat spin like that, knowing all passengers were still fully conscious and very much aware it was the end.

[@007nadineL]

😢😢😢😢

[@MatsMatsuo]

Apparently one of the crew members was still able to send a last message to her husband. It got over the news here in Brazil. Indeed a very heartbroken situation

[@VictoriaWalker8]

Completely nightmare fuel 💔 It's already horrifying to see from the outside; from the inside, I can't even imagine.

[@rvnmedic1968]

With that rapid descent, would the passengers/crew lose consciousness and pass out? I certainly hope so. RIP for all on that doomed aircraft...

[@jetthicks6658]

@@rvnmedic1968 unfortunately, the forces weren't strong enough for them to faint. they were conscious the whole time, but it would be like a very uncomfortable rollercoaster ride, not more horror than that.

[@ralfsingmann6580]

Dear Magnar, I was waiting for this video since the accident. It speaks for your expertise that you didn’t publish anything before now. Now it’s the time and I’m happy to listen.

[@Ifly1976]

Nobody more qualified to review this than Magnar. Excellent job, looking forward to the follow up

[@garlic5065]

@@brianbrotherston5940 and be completely clueless and wrong

[@Peasmould]

@@brianbrotherston5940 actually this isn't really specualtion, it is sharing a deeper understanding than most of us have of the actual data we have so far.

[@leandroribeirocaetanodossa3108]

Great explanation for such a very sad moment for us in Brazil 😔

[@valterp528]

Good afternoon Captain Magnar, I'm from Brazil, city of São Paulo, I like your videos, good to hear your opinion.

[@czechpilot-ZA]

Thanks for an accurate description of what is known. Good background on spin aerodynamics, ATR-72 stall warning/stick pusher systems, 2015 aircraft certification changes and the effects of icing and the urgency that it should elicit with the flight crew. Excellent!

[@ParswaNathTheo]

I was waiting for Captain's analysis... I was wondering how an ATR can go into a flat spin! Thank you.

[@evangelgreek6864]

stall + yaw + power and maybe ailerons

[@renaissanceman5847]

Center of Gravity had to have shifted aft... if the GC was center of the main wing, the drag from the tail would have forced the nose down. Icing may have cause the stall, but to stay in a flat spin... something else is very wrong here

[@KuostA]

@@renaissanceman5847 icing on the T-tail causing it to have aft CG and causing T=tail surfaces to be blanked is a possibility

[@renaissanceman5847]

@@KuostA maybe . But the record shows it dropped then went into a very steep climb before going into a stall. Something broke or shifted that CG.

[@KuostA]

@@renaissanceman5847 explainable by Autopilot getting them in a severely out of trim state as their drag increased with ice accruing until it could not hold it any longer and disconnected, suddenly giving back control to the pilots in a completely out of trim state with them completely lacking awareness to the actual energy state the a/c was in, resulting in them failing to input the correct correction inputs, resulting in the pitch down, then up, then loss of control following a stall into a flat spin.

[@RodrigoDigoJunho]

I really liked your explanation of the data we have so far, technical, detailed and only covering the essentials. I subscribed to the channel and left a like!

[@MarcPagan]

Thanks for the report. RIP Once again - Flying in Icing 101 - no autopilot.

[@keithnamssolf2067]

Autopilot will not save fools. RIP all!

[@MarcPagan]

@@keithnamssolf2067 Hmmm. Perhaps "fools" is a tad harsh, but perhaps it isn't. From flight tracking, the rock solid altitude indicates autopilot. No issue there. The issue? Once in known or suspected icing, auto pilot off. Perhaps they did indeed act as "fools", by leaving the auto pilot on in known icing. ..or got caught in flash icing. Happened to buddy flying out of LAX on climb out while hand flying in IMC. The only reason he and all his 30+ pax are alive - His Saab turbo-prop had a sky pointer. So, after the stall he was "lucky" to flip, not enter into a flat spin. The sky pointer enabled him to know which way was up, after hitting the de-ice boots. So, icing, and stalls can happen in a flash. Even after getting a proper WX briefing. Curious to see the final report, and recommendations. RIP

[@alexc5449]

100% and the worst part is that it's all the way down as the SEVENTH item on the checklist. That's outrageous! It should be the FIRST thing on that checklist. The second item should be a flight control check to see which surfaces are effective and how much. Adding Max Thrust to an elevator contaminated with severe icing may cause it to pitch up and make it uncontrollable. ATR is partly responsible for this tragedy in my opinion.

[@gregculverwell]

As you say - the ATR has a bad reputation when it comes to icing. My Brazilian wife has been following the local news. One of the reports said that the pilot had requested a change in altitude just prior to the loss of control , but was denied by ATC. Of course the pilot had the right to declare an emergency and take whatever action he deemed necessary, but most people are reluctant to be assertive.

[@dashriprock4308]

Not me. Severe icing means exactly that. Get out of it.

[@kkfoto]

There's been a lot of talk about the supposed ATC "denial", but it has not been confirmed.

[@sblack48]

@@dashriprock4308 who says they were in severe icing. Did ATC know they were in icing? If they asked for an altitude and there was traffic ATC were entirely correct to deny it. So let's not jump to any conclusions within a day or 2 of the accident. Nobody knows anything for sure at this point. It will take weeks or months for even a preliminary statement.

[@eduardogiachero2601]

Hi, I live roughly 6 km from the place of the fall. The ANAC (Brazilian Agency for Civil Aviation) denied there was a radio contact between pilots and ATC nor there was a mayday call. But the investigation will clarify on that.

[@XavierLignieres]

@@dashriprock4308 One of the first things my instructor told me when I was working on my PPL is if you are in any kind of emergency ATC can wait the priority should be getting yourself , your passengers and the aircraft down safely call a MAYDAY when you but for the sake of all things good focus on FLYING to safety first !

[@Bruno-fm7jc]

What a didactic and enlightening video, unfortunately we don't have technicians like you to give this kind of interviews in Brazil This sentence summarizes this accident: "Beause when it comes to ice, speed is life"

[@_lcfiorini]

I'm Brazilian and I live in the flight's original destination (Sao Paulo). An important information about this tragedy is that there was a cold front right where the plane was flying. This reinforces the ice formation on the wings, because the plane came from a cold dry area and entered a hot humid area. This speculation must be corroborated or disproved by the ongoing investigation, of course, which is the only thing to clarify what really happened. Remember another famous accident from my country, the AF447 flight, which disappeared over the equatorial atlantic ocean in 2009: the black box was found only 2 years after, it consumed lots of money to be rescued, but was crucial to understand what caused the accident.

[@terrygrunwick4314]

Excellent explanation. I had no idea that multi-engined aircraft can be inherently incapable of spin recovery.

[@razorseal]

flat spin specifically, and also T Tail like ATR make it very hard. the wings block airflow to the rear preventing rudder from getting air to stop the rotation.

[@nighthawk0077]

I don't think it's the fact it has two engines, rather where they are positioned, also a loaded weight of 50 tonnes or more is going to be difficult to recover in a spin.

[@MacCekko]

Thank you Captain. I was waiting for your observations in regard of this terrible accident… and here you are. In the hope to hear from you soon, we all shall be waiting for details to cast light on this tragic event.

[@vhperches]

-14.500ft/min, can’t imagine how they felt, condolences to all affected by this tragedy

[@flyingpedal]

I was waiting for your video to have the best analyse we can have until now. Thanks again Captain !

[@MentourNow]

Excellent! Well explained Magnar!

[@bzipoli]

i came here bc of your recommendation!

[@SuperFullin]

Capt Magnar, the preliminary report has been issued last Friday by CENIPA. I've been reading it thoroughly. Although there is so much to find out until the final report is released, preliminary CVR and FDR timeline readouts reveal a crew entertained with ATC, PA and other non essential communications with the APS starting to blink all the 3 warning lights and shimes, while IAS decays rapidly under 200 kt. Also de-icing activated and deactivated in several instances throughout the flight until the horrific end. I am anxious to hear from you the #1 authority when it comes to ATR aircraft. Thanks much. Happy landings! Cheers from Brazil ❤

[@viniciusfranco3394]

The final destination of this flight was GRU (International airport of São Paulo/Guarulhos). The crash occurred near Viracopos Int'l airport. Congrats for your videos. You gained a new subscriber in this channel. Hugs from Brazil (Caxias do Sul - RS).

[@riderofthemark6661]

Thank you Captain Magnar, your video was the one i was expecting the most!

[@GiuseppeSRedSky]

I was waiting for this video

[@stevieprogamingroblox]

Same

[@dnhug]

Very detailed analysis that I would agree to. Well done Sir. RIP to the victims.

[@joaosantucci7126]

Captain, just a correction, the flight had Guarulhos (SBGR) as destination. The crash site was 7NM from Viracopos Airport (SBKP).

[@Karibanu]

Thanks for the summary - I ( remember just enough aero engineering to be dangerous ) and pilot friends have been speculating what could put an ATR in that situation ( as opposed to what actually did here ), but as you say the details of this particular case should 100% wait for the report. An unusual one though, you don't see a transport aircraft in a flat spin every day.

[@boyvanurk9854]

Hello Magnar, Thank you for covering this terrible accident in your professional style. I must admit never having expected to see an airliner enter a spin. As far as to my knowledge the last time it happened was well before WW 2. This will leave me puzzled at least until the report comes out. Regards, Boy

[@LCafran]

Excellent information and explanation regarding what probably caused yesterdays horrific accident in Brasil. Very well explained. God bless all the victims, their families and the first responders (also the people who witnessed this horrible event).🙏🙏🙏

[@PetrolHeadBrasil]

Was a very sad day for brazilian aviation. Our last comercial accident was in 2007... was a big shock to everybody... I worked in aviation for 11 years, and I'm out since 2019. I'm crying since friday...

[@codecoderr7495]

it wasn't your fault. Please instruct the new pilots on edge cases like this! That's the generational gap on experience which could've saved this flight.

[@CapitalismSuxx]

I knew you were on it, thanks for coming through with your expert opinions on ATR machines!

[@markxfarmer6830]

Thank you for the cogent explanation.

[@Wind_Wonders]

A well-done analysis of the tragic Voepass Flight 2283 crash. The explanation of how severe icing led to the flat spin really sheds light on the risks pilots face. ❤

[@jeffs1225]

One small correction: Flight VOEPASS 2Z 2283 was scheduled from Cascavel to Guarulhos (GRU) not Viracopos (VCP)

[@AndreasDeloitte]

Clear and impeccable explanation commander. As an instructor and aerobatic pilot I would like to add that there could also be a problem of asymmetric thrust during the recovery maneuver from the stall, due to ice obstruction, of one of the two air intakes.

[@deepVAroots]

Excellent video and very informative!!

[@CamiloSanchez1979]

Very thorough, thank you. Prayers to their families.

[@cczigler]

Cascavel (SBCA) to Guarulhos/São Paulo (SBGR). Crashed near Viracopos/Campinas (SBKP), in Vinhedo city

[@ycampos]

Thank you for your video, it was a great explanation. We in Brazil are still in shock for this horrific accident.

[@mikerandle9489]

THank you for explaining this. Mentour Pilot recommended your channel so I subscibed!

[@helmerkappert5152]

You are a great instructor..love your clear and calm ,one step at the time approach in a on time driven bussiness..❤

[@ALARABIC]

O Brasil esta triste.Obrigada pelo video.

[@invertedangel]

So from the first point at 16:21:02 to 16:22:26 is only 1:24. One minute, 24 seconds. They had almost no time to even come up with a plan to save the plane. Just under one and half minutes...

[@AlexandreAlves73S]

Magnar, excellent video, but destination of flight was SBGR/GRU not Viracopos/Campinas. The SBGR STAR procedure start over Campinas City.

[@seiscaneco68]

good serene account on what could have happened, without jumping to speculative conclusions before official report. Congratulations I will watch this channel from now on.

[@alexc5449]

Captain, in my humble opinion that checklist killed them. Adding power to an aircraft you assume to be contaminated with severe icing means the elevator was likely ineffective and adding max thrust caused them to pitch nose up and stall. Pilots followed the checklist like they were trained and it caused the crash. ATR are partly responsible for this tragedy.

[@luvbeers]

I was thinking along these lines. They were exactly at TOD and perhaps oversped after initializing descent, and the elevators froze trying to pull up. they couldn't push down again and they stalled.

[@acasualviewer5861]

An engineering solution to make this impossible would be good. People make mistakes, unexpected conditions may occur, and this occasion it seems like it became unrecoverable. I don't like "unrecoverable".

[@wesleyhurd3574]

@@acasualviewer5861I agree. Civilian aircraft should not have flight characteristics that could create non-recoverable situations. As long as you have a few thousand feet before you meet the ground, there should always be a way to get out of a bad situation if your engines and hydraulics are up and running.

[@wesleyhurd3574]

I’m not sure that adding thrust would cause the nose to pitch up on the ATR. I understand that on jets like the Boeing 737 MAX, increasing thrust could cause a nose up attitude due to the relatively low position of the engines under the wing. However, the center of the engines on the ATR appear to be mounted above the center of motion. If anything, I’d imagine you would get a slight nose down attitude when adding thrust. But I’m not a pilot. I’d like to hear what the experts have to say.

[@alexc5449]

@@wesleyhurd3574 That’s an interesting question. The ATRs engines aren’t as high as you may think. They’re not any higher than jets with engines mounted on the empennage. Their weight also raises the location of the CG counteracting the “opposite” effects you’re referring to.

[@gentilsouza6006]

Thanks cpt!! Excellent!! Very helpful for understanding the event.

[@ralfbaechle]

Magnar, the usual great video. A chilling accident. I've many times flown in ATR72s as a passenger, I've been in São Paulo, I've been in Cascavel. The only point I'd like to mention is that you illustrate spinning with an aircraft that suspiciously looks like a Cessna 172 or similar. That type of aircraft is notoriously hard to get to spin at all. Brazilian PPL training mandates spin training and a friend of mine had to use a C172N rather than his flying school's usual C152 because at 2m (for the non-metric folks, that's about 0.00108 nautical miles) he just doesn't fit into an aircraft the size of a thimble. Turns out it's almost impossible to get it to spin. It requires some power and full rudder and Cessna 172Ns immediately recover by themselves when the engine is idled and hands taken of control. In the UK (EASA land) spin training is optional; my flying club used to use a Slingsby T-67 Firefly for it.

[@FlywithMagnar]

As many of you have pointed out, the destination was not Viracopos/Campinas (SBKP) but Guarulhos/São Paulo (SBGR). And if you find it difficult to understand my accent, please activate the subtitles.

[@TRPGpilot]

Your 'accent' is perfectly acceptable Captain!

[@pavelavietor1]

do you perceived the un natural rotation like out of weight and balance , it looks to me severe ice . great presentation . saludos

[@kalistiable]

By far the best stall/spin explanation I have got.

[@TheAatupaatu]

Thank you Magnar.

[@DAN-ju5tr]

Now this should be the standart procedure to spread information throught, unbiased, based on the confirmed reports, using certified data and goes only to the point where lies the clear boundary between the factual and mere unreliable speculation. Much appreciate your prowess and discernment on how to really get people informed Mr. Magnar, please do keep up this great source of knowledge and inspiration in such strange times we going through

[@FelonyVideos]

While I do not disagree with the icing theory, such a violent, abrupt, and upward move could not be the result of loss of lift. The vehicle powered itself upwards, trading kinetic energy for potential energy. This happened in seconds, until there was no forward motion. Generally, icing does t do this, the plane simply begins dropping, even as it gains forward velocity. This tells me there was a major malfunction of the aircraft, or major pilot error, or both. There are at least a couple, out of hundred, no doubt, of possible reasons for this plane behavior. The engines could have entered reverse thrust mode, the plane could have entered Hotel Mode, or the pilot may have catastrophically reacted to an otherwise recoverable but surprising electrical/mechanical failure. The sudden gain in altitude and loss of forward velocity screams equipment failure combined with potential pilot response error/response, even if the pilots did everything by the book. Condolences to the family and friends of the victims.

[@NicolaW72]

That are really good Points! I readed some of them elsewhere, too, and they´re really calling for a closer Investigation. It is at least possible that the chain of events was much more complex than a "simple" severe icing.

[@Runner.4k]

If the pitot froze on the static ports of the airspeed sensor giving the autopilot faster than actual speed data it then started climbing that would bleed off all the speed and we know it was also banking to the right because it was spinning to the left but I think the rudder was also iced or they should have recovered into a dive.

[@NicolaW72]

@@Runner.4k As the Commenter above stated: It looks like a more complex Story - not a "Single-Issue-Crash" but a "Swiss-Cheese-Model-Crash" so to say.

[@Runner.4k]

@@NicolaW72 Yeah I would say a lot of things went wrong and why they never said anything about an emergency tower never recieved anything total power outage on top of icing my best to all the families

[@NicolaW72]

@@Runner.4k Why they didn´t called the ATC for an Emergency is probably the best explicable part of this whole Story: In an Emergency there´s: Aviate, Navigate, Communicate. Highest Priority is to get the Aircraft out of the Emergency Situation. To fly the Aircraft. Communicate with the ATC is the last Priority.

[@MarcosAlves-je3ym]

Great explanation. Thanks. I did not know about this ice condition that could crash a plain so fast. It is sad to imagine how hard the pilot have tried to save that lifes and failed. So young and so dedicated and talent professional. My condolonces to all families and friends. I hope they understand fully what happended to avoid anything like that in the future.

[@jonny1013]

The atr72 accumulates ice very efficiently.

[@Runner.4k]

But and like he said putting it in a dive with opposite rudder you will recover but why was their no voice recording for last 60 seconds

[@Layla-yr5ef]

Thank you. Excellent analysis and video. Awaiting your next one.

[@mickg7299]

Hardest thing about flying is the ground.

[@ErichGuidi]

What a knowlodge! Thnaks for sharing!

[@nightair4150]

There was other contributing factors to the American crash, among them a captain not at the controls in known icing. We run ATR-72 in Canada in all kinds of weather from extreme cold to hot and high. ATR-72-200 not capable during an engine failure for altitudes above 18000ft here over the mountains in Canada especially summer. Our crews are very competent and work with the AME to ensure safe flight. This event sounds like wind shear and upon hearing the engines it sounds as though one isn’t at the correct pitch.

[@redbird444]

The captain had returned from the lavatory at the time of upset innAE 4184 and your assertion wasn’t a factor although the French government and the manufacturer attempted to deflect their malfeasance by claiming it was. As for “engine sounds” on the video, you should know those are unreliable due to the doppler effect of a rotating out of control aircraft.

[@Taketimeout3]

Hy Magnar. So pleased to see you are getting the recognition you deserved. So sad I rediscovered your uploads through this awful event. Your input is probably the best in regard to the ATR. I will be watching your channel again once more. I lost intrest in YT other than the Ukranian War. Stay safe

[@royshashibrock3990]

RIP to all souls lost. But I wanted to say that, in my opinion, the ATR-72 is a very dangerous airplane. I believe two factors in its design cause this to be so. First, wing loading...the airplane has insufficient wing area for the loads it is routinely asked to carry. Second, the chord of the wing is too small, which, coupled with high wing loading, makes the aircraft less stable than most other aircraft. These factors can also mean that the airplane will react less favorably to certain adverse effects - wing icing for example. Again, these are just my opinions.

[@mudi2000a]

Even if true here it was known before there might be severe icing. I don’t understand why no action was taken to avoid the icing either by changing route or just waiting.

[@royshashibrock3990]

@@mudi2000a Agreed. The best candidate for why no action was taken, in my opinion, is a pilot not experienced enough in this aircraft to know its idiosyncrasies, especially in adverse conditions. We are all waiting for the preliminary report to gain more information. Thanks for your reply.

[@murraygnz]

G-LOC perhaps ?

[@FlywithMagnar]

At maximum takeoff weight, ATR 72-600 has a wing loading of 377 kg per square meter. Q400: 475 kg per square meter. Boeing 737-800: 620 kg per square meter. When it comes to longitudal stability, the main factor is not the chord, but the location of the center of gravity relative to the aerodynamic center (lift center). A wing with a high aspect ratio is used because it is more efficient. The induced drag is less than for a wing with a low aspect ratio. Therefore, a wing with a high aspect ratio will produce more lift for the same angle of attack. Regarding icing, it has no influence on stability, but on lift coefficient, drag, critical angle of attack, and controllabilty.

[@royshashibrock3990]

@@FlywithMagnar I respect your background, and the knowledge it has given you. Much of what you are saying is true; however, stability and controllability are interlinked. A less stable aircraft is harder to control, and vice versa. I have not looked at the safety record of the ATR-72, but the number of crashes of this model that I have heard of is high. As I type this, there is even a thumbnail to the right for a video of the "Top 10 ATR-72 crashes." I do not believe your statement that wing chord isn't one of the main factors affecting longitudinal stability. The narrower the wing chord, the narrower the allowable variance in CG location while loaded. In the case of the ATR-72, they have also lengthened the fuselage, aggravating the process of meeting the CG requirements. It is true that a narrow wing chord introduces less drag that a wider one. I will even agree that such an aspect ratio can be aerodynamically more efficient overall. But nothing comes for free, and the price for such a wing is as I mentioned above: less stability and less flexibility with CG limits. One can make a paper airplane to prove these points. Who can, after seeing the picture of the bottom of an ATR-72 going down as its wing clips a bridge, not wonder why such a small wing (area-wise) is affixed to such a long fuselage? You said one other thing wrong (in my opinion), that a high aspect ratio wing will produce more lift at a given angle of attack than a wing of low aspect ratio. This is false; an airfoil design (or number) works the same regardless of the aspect ratio; however, the lower aspect ratio will introduce more drag, making the high aspect ratio one more efficient overall. In the airfoil tables, I have never seen ones that are labeled to indicate they work better with certain aspect ratio wings...have you? A given airfoil produces a certain amount of lift depending on speed pf airflow over it and its angle of attack into such airflow. As for wing loading, I was surprised to find that it has been rapidly increasing among newer aircraft designs in the name of fuel economy. For example, the DHC-6 twin otter, introduced in 1972, has a wing loading of less than 30 lbs/foot^2. Fast forward to the DHC-8, introduced in the late 1980s, and that number has more than tripled to just under 98 lbs/foot^2. There are many similarly designed aircraft being made by Embraer, Maeve, Bombardier, and others. As for the ATR-72, as it is the oldest of it's type, it lags the newer models at about two-and a half times the Otter: just under 80 lbs/foot^2. It seems I should not have singled out the ATR-72 because, as I show above, newer planes of that type are even worse. I guess its because I have heard of so many ATR-72 crashes. Icing is a totally different story, and is not part of what I have to say, except that if an aircraft is already "riding on the edge" of stability or controllability because of its design, then it will take less ice formation on the wings to bring the aircraft down. It is my opinion that the ATR-72 (and now I know other aircraft as well) falls in this category. Thanks for your reply.

[@nesvarog14]

Thanks for this explanation Captain.

[@DorianSaunders-c4s]

I think ATR needs to be held accountable at some point .. no one is talking about that specific point.. there's been 10 incidents since 2010 with these aircraft that's simply insane

[@joaohenriquepace126]

Agree with you.

[@flyerholland]

U are totally right. Not to forget there are many many incidents not becoming accidents with stalls and loss of control because of these icing issues. They need to awknowledge that their design just is not safe. Its a flying Russian roulette.

[@stanktail]

3000 Fords crashed in the US every day on average. Ford's fault? Pilot error. Poor training, lack of talet, bad decisions.

[@DorianSaunders-c4s]

@stanktail if other turbo prop aircrafts can fly in icy conditions SAFELY.. there's no excuse, 0 .. when's the last time you seen a Q400 fall out the sky due to icing? Stop making excuses, there should be NONE when it comes to aviation.. NONE.

[@GrimYak]

@@stanktailclassic case of strawman fallacy.

[@reverseuniverse2559]

Thank you for your expertise on this unfortunate horror crash

[@wadastent6078]

This accident would change from ATR company for a new severe icing procedure for ATR72 500 models? And for the new ones models? ATR72 600 more digital computer update? Needed more simulation training hours for pilots about that issue?

[@secondskins-nl]

I'm no pilot but as Magnar pointed out you shouldn't fly in severe icing with the ATR (well, with a lot of aircrafts if not all). You also shouldn't stall an aircraft like this with two engines outside the center of gravity since it's close to impossible to recover. Don't think there is much which can help training wise if you will still fly in severe icing conditions. If that indeed was the cause of the accident. I feel for those on the plane who realised for so many seconds they would die, must have been terrible.

[@wadastent6078]

@@secondskins-nl 😓

[@martijn3010]

The video triggered me to try and figure what could have happened. I concluded it looked like a flat spin and thought this might have been related to icing. Looking for ATR I found your other video’s today and now this explaination, thanks. I wish all the families involved strength.

[@humlakullen]

I understand that in a flatspin, there’s little to no control of the airfoils. About the only control the pilots have in this situation is over the power levers. Wouldn’t applying more power on the “inboard” engine slowly reduce the turn rate, increase the turn radius, and thereby regain some airflow over the wings? Might be a moot point if the wings are iced up. Just curious…

[@Peasmould]

an interesting idea! What if the pilot could also deploy the flaps on the "outboard" wing only, would that help? It seems this happens often enough that there need to be experiments done to explore all the possibilities. Or even parachutes to slow the rate of descent to something survivable? Perhaps with models in wind tunnels? I fear the answer is that with the engines out on the wings, the angular momentum and inertia are too great to overcome. It looks like a gyroscope in slow motion.

[@TheMorayMosstrooper]

Thanks for the examination of the data. As you say, conclusions are best drawn from this, not from speculation. My condolences to the families of the victims of this awful event.

[@captsonko.9345]

Why would i wait for clearance in order to recover my aircraft from a dangerous problem 😮 noway could i risk that,not even would allow autopilot.

[@drgrampo]

So professional and very well explained. Thanks for the video

[@davidperry3257]

Thank you Captain for the great explanation of the accident. People on this forum incorrectly assume this aircraft type is dangerous. But when operating the aircraft correctly and recognizing the icing conditions, the aircraft is perfectly safe for flight dispatch. There’s no substitute for having the correct judgment and experience to know what to do when placed in a severe icing situation. Time is of the essence when flying the aircraft safely out of harms way. This accident was completely avoidable. The manufacturer states that aircraft should not be flown on autopilot in severe icing conditions. At the same time, the ice protection system needs to be engaged when entering these conditions.

[@TheUrantia001]

You never get to hear the full story, as blame get shifted to pilots to protect companies.. it could be poor maintenane And weather combination...many factors...

[@thiagov6123]

Still don't have all the facts

[@weldonyoung1013]

Well this flight crew did have weather reports that icing was likely at their altitude and destination.

[@jetmanwalking]

Nicely done, Captain. Thank you.

[@subwolf7420]

I'm glad the ATR never became a success in Norway, the Dash-8 handles icing conditions much better.

[@hepphepps8356]

And what will the Dash 8 be replaced with? It’s going to happen.

[@subwolf7420]

@@hepphepps8356 Widerøe in Norway has basically rebuilt 20 DHC8-100 , in an agreement with De Havilland Canada. They are now good for 160.000 landings. The airline hopes by 2030 to serve the small towns up north using electric aircraft.

[@jamesharris9816]

ATR is built for economy. But it has a 'acceptable' level of safety. That wing is designed to save money per hour.

[@subwolf7420]

@@jamesharris9816 That wing is designed for disaster, and very little has been done about it. Insufficient de-icing system combined with a bad wing design can cause the wing to stall without warning when flying in icing conditions. This also happened to American Eagle flight 4184, an ATR 72-200. Flying a holding pattern in icing conditions, wing suddenly stalled, aircraft became uncontrollable followed by a rapid descent to the ground. The Brazil accident looks like 4184 all over again.

[@marcg1686]

​@@subwolf7420 '... wing suddenly stalled...' This is factually false. What caused 4184 to crash was the autopilot tripping, followed by a rapid hinge moment reversal which caused the plane to roll rapidly to the right.

[@KuostA]

You are the ONLY trustworthy source I'd look to for this ATR topic on KZbin.

[@johncassels3475]

I understand this was a -500 model - does this have the same stall/icing protection and warning as the newer -600 model. Is this significant in this situation? Just wondering ...

[@NicolaW72]

The -500 and the -600 model are similar in this direction. But the -500 model is much advanced in comparison with the older -200, what was a direct result of the Roselawn Disaster.

[@johncassels3475]

@@NicolaW72 Thanks for the info

[@NicolaW72]

@@johncassels3475 🙂

[@josuesleyer]

Thank you, very informative, objective and educational, in Brazil they are afraid to talk about anything about the technical aspects of the aircraft, thank you.