ATR 72 and severe icing part 1

ATR 72 and icing sounds like a bad combination. Yes, there have been accidents and incidents with ATR aircraft related to icing. However, they all happened because the pilots did not follow their procedures. Furthermore, other aircraft types are also vulnerable to icing.
This video is Part 1 of a series of two videos about severe icing. This part explains how ice forms on an aircraft, and how it affects aircraft performance and control. Part 2 describes what can happen if you don’t follow your procedures.
Here is a link to Part 2: • Can you outclimb sever...
You will also find it useful to watch this video about ATR ice & rain protection systems: • ATR ice & rain protect...
Other links:
FAA: Icing terminology www.federalreg...
Michael B. Bragg: Aircraft aerodynamic effects due to large droplet ice accretions icing.ae.illino...
NASA/US DOT/FAA: Effects of large-droplet ice accretion on airfoil and wing aerodynamics and control www.faa.gov/ai...
Follow Fly with Magnar: / 1140864699685560

[@Simulanderson]

Today in Brazil we lost an ATR. Everybody is talking about Ice.

[@pastuh]

I would not fly any plane till this issue exist..Simple alerts could solve such issues..

[@carystevensky]

It was due to ice

[@Magved]

Considerando a frente fria que acertou até aqui no MT, provavelmente foi o motivo.

[@n0b0dy07]

Apparently the 500 model no not count with this system, as 600 model

[@MrCaiobrz]

Because it was 100% caused by Ice. The investigation will basically just focus on which part of the sequence and recovery went wrong

[@Magved]

We just lost an ATR72 in Brazil today. Probably due to icing as well, considering we were hit by a cold front.

[@Phuckharris2024]

You don’t need a cold front it can happen on the hottest days

[@flightfernando]

​@@Phuckharris2024yep frequently flying over Amazon winter I see Ice formation....😢

[@cruxader27]

We were told by our instructors that once we get Degraded Perf we need to do the procedure for severe icing as soon as possible even if we don't yet have the Increase Spd alert. He told us not to do anything just to demonstrate and show us what happens and how quickly severe icing can occur. By the time he gave us Degraded Perf we were asked to start timing. It was just under 10 seconds and the plane starts falling down at the same time increase speed alert appeared.

[@invisired]

Jesus! could be what happens with Brazilian ATR on Friday.

[@carlsegan1981]

For those brazilians that reject the icing theory, this video did the very well job.

[@darthheretic129]

Why are they rejecting the icing theory?

[@carlsegan1981]

@@darthheretic129 just say that is desinformation without a feasible explanation.

[@Tazjet100]

in the CVR tape, Neither pilot expressed concerns about ice. F/O expressed confusion what the engine was doing and demanded more power. Americans only have one experience of ATR and that was American Eagle 4184. Just because the only US ATR crash was caused by icing does not mean every ATR accident was caused by icing! Listen to the CVR tape...

[@dynasty006-y9e]

​@@Tazjet100 some of the CVR communications were released in the preliminary report last Friday. The FO is heard saying "Lots of Ice" a few moments prior to the final fall.

[@LucasBustamante1]

This video is almost prophetic, looking at the Brazilian A72 that came down today. At 11:50 you say the left wing could stall - that's what happened: the plane fell in a tailspin rotating to the left. And at 24:00 you said you only experienced heavy icing on a tropical climate, which was also the case.

[@AlexCarloss]

As the severe icing conditions is rare in Brazil's aviation the question is, were the pilots well trained for this situation?

[@filipefelicio2364]

@@AlexCarloss yes , the pilots are properly trained

[@IgorAnselm]

But the Voepass airspeed was significantly above the minimum speed for severe ice conditions (it was around 225 knots).

[@AlexCarloss]

@@IgorAnselm Yes, the flight radar shows a very inconstant speed throught the whole flight, since the TO, I'm also curious about that.

[@IgorAnselm]

@@AlexCarloss they updated the blog post with the airspeed data. The groundspeed data was unreliable, previous flights showed the same erratic pattern.

[@joaolobao5863]

This video is prophetic!

[@alexnutcasio936]

This video was posted nearly four years ago. Ironic given that we just lost yet another ATR in August 2024 due to icing induced stall, flat spin.

[@andis9076]

I think you should create video for lost ATR in Brazil.

[@darthheretic129]

He did

[@AlexCarloss]

About the ATR accident yesterday in Brazil. A SIGMET issued a severe icing condition between FLT 120 and FLT 210, and the ATR was flying at FLT 170 when it started dropping from the sky. An A320 pilot reportred severe icing on the same route to GRU airpot. Up to now no ATC talks have been revealed yet. The question is, were the pilots well trained for this situation? Did they briefed before taking off? I´ve never heard any pilot talking about severe icing conditions around here so I guess it is a rare phenomenon on brazilian skies.

[@filipefelicio2364]

Can be a malfunction on the de icing and anti icing ?

[@AlexCarloss]

@@filipefelicio2364 as far as I know, severe icing condition means a rapid formation of ice beyond the areas protected by the de-icing system, so pilots must be trained to early detect the modification of aircraft performance and take preventive measures, as explained by Mr. Noldar here in this video and on part 2.

[@filipefelicio2364]

@@AlexCarloss thank you

[@Hotelmode]

Been crying out for an in depth explaination of this. Thank you!

[@ricardodias4654]

In this accident in Brazil 😭 I would ask if they encountered severe ice formation, were they aware of that? Could they lower the altitude to melt the ice that formed? Or was the ice formation so fast that they lost control before being able to take action? All my feelings with all the families. 😢

[@Sokol10]

They contact the controller asking for descent due ice, but conto ler denied - supposed because tow other aircraft are cruising near in the level bellow. In this case the pilot should declare MayDay and act at his discretion.

[@LeSaxon90]

A 72 just went down in Brazil because of Severe Icing.

[@vsappel]

MAYBE becouse ice.

[@AlexCarloss]

@@vsappel A SIGMET issued a severe icing condition between FLT 120 and FLT 210, and the ATR was flying at FLT 170 vwhen it started dropping from the sky. 95% sure about what caused the accident.

[@vsappel]

@@AlexCarloss agree, but we can't assume at all

[@DanFrederiksen]

it would be good to have cameras on planes to record icing as well as the conditions. we need to see examples of how bad it gets so we can figure out if existing deicing techniques are even good

[@tong.clement]

Rest in peace for those onboard the Voepass flight. Completely insane to hear that these procedures exist as an aspiring engineer - it’s not ok that the plane can just randomly require so much drastic action with so little hint of an icing problem. How can icing accumulate so fast on the ATR and require an emergency response? It’s really not acceptable.

[@sfklein1]

if I recall, the American Eagle flight 4184 ATR-72 crash resulted from icing while on autopilot and loss of control on approach when the autopilot was deactivated, resulting in an uncontrollable spin: wonder if this will be the case as well. The FAA issued updated deicing boot requirements for this aircraft type in 1995, but the news states this is a fairly old plane.

[@roguemaximmus3419]

Yes, and yesterday another ATR crashed in Brazil due to icing as well.

[@richarddumont5389]

The crew of the American flight were instructed to do hippodromes as O’Hare was congested… they thought they were no longer in icing conditions and deactivated the de-ice system for 17 minutes, reduced the speed, lowered the flaps and held 10000 feet in - in fact -icing conditions … when they realised it was still bloody icing they switched the de-ice system on again but ice had irremediably built up we know what happened next.

[@Intelligence_Failure]

I'm no professional, but even if it can supposedly be safely avoided with good piloting (and specifically not relying on the autopilot), the footage of that plane falling out of the sky over sao paulo looks to me very much like a plane with flight characteristics too unstable to be tolerated on a 21st century airliner. it should not be possible for a passenger plane to turn into THAT with both engines running, that is absurd. maybe it's fine for cargo and private travel, but that is not a reasonable plane for public transportation. and it won't be fixed by any further bandaids, that is clearly a fundamental deficit in the aerodynamics and weight distribution making this plane rather absurdly vulnerable to stalling.

[@tong.clement]

Agreed. Not ok

[@Roman-Rrromma]

👏👌👍😊🤗❤

[@marcg1686]

The ATR series doesn't have a fundamental deficit with regard to the aerodynamics and weight distribution. If it did, it wouldn't have been certified.

[@Intelligence_Failure]

WWWWWWWwW2Wà assemblies were in fact the only parts of those planes that were assembled to a quality standard reminiscent of tesls.

[@pilotalex5677]

Hello captain, have a question regarding the severe icing procedure. One of the latest bottom lines specified "escape " how do you escape when icing has already started and the icing area range can be wide ? Thank you for your videos, you are gold mine ! 🙏

[@FlywithMagnar]

In most cases, the area with severe icing is a few thousands feet thick. Descending is therefore the primary escape strategy. This also helps you to keep the speed up. Escape strategy number two is to turn towards an area with lower terrain.

[@genrylizardo8180]

It's very important explanation, but how we explain the family who lost one that technology can't save life in public transportation. The specific circunstance, stress and timing is not the same when we are on the table talking about.

[@keithwalker6892]

The wing XSection on the ATR wing is different to the normal such as the DHC8-400 has and the ATR section accumulates ice further aft on the section closer to the aileron controls and affects the operation of the ailerons ,making the control of the aircraft difficult ,resulting in stall condition of the wing. There have been quite a few accidents and many deaths due to this wing stalling in ice. A modification needs to be made to prevent this happening and in the meantime do not fly this aircraft in ice.

[@marcg1686]

With the exception of Flight 4184, every accident or incident involving a ATR series in icing conditions has been caused by pilot error. Better training is the answer.

[@AlexandreLima-kh6gi]

Thank you for sharing. Very didactic.

[@yvesleroy5740]

SAS4144 ATR72 in 2016 also had that issue ...Pilots left autopilot engaged I believe

[@ivanshevy]

12:06 just like crash in Nepal yesterday 😢

[@saito125]

The crash in Nepal had nothing to do with icing.

[@WildWildWeasel]

Nepal crash was copilot error, copilot pulled the power lever back instead of the flaps lever, causing the aircraft to lose speed and stall. ATR will stall left wing-first regardless of what causes it to get to that condition.

[@sanmartin9673]

I didn't get what Captain Magnar said at 10:13: "ATR extended the wing ???? ahead of the ailerons".

[@LeaoDN]

wing (rubber deicing) boots...

[@fauzimendonca5108]

Great instructions Captain.

[@HAL9000-su1mz]

Prophetic.

[@carlosmartinrestrepo]

Aerocaribbean and Voepass Flights maybe examples of unaware and untrained pilots to deal with severe icing? In my understanding, turboprops are no certified in flat spin.

[@rubenbarahona]

It is assumed that when a plane crashes; All of the same model are going to be reviewed to modernize or solve this problem in all and future aircraft to be built.

[@77thTrombone]

Dang! A chief complaint I have with KZbin is its tendency to show me part 2 (or more) of a series, and make me hunt down part 1. This time KZbin presented part 1❕ Problem is, Magnar redirects me to a prior video. 🤦🏼‍♂️

[@neomallorca9040]

Speed my friend: Thanx for your videos.

[@BenTheNomad]

Thanks Captain... Like your youtube channel. Happy landing!!!

[@shivapoudel9059]

Sir is atr 72 susceptible for tailplain icing?

[@FlywithMagnar]

No, it's not. Tailplane icing was only a problem with flaps 45 on ATR 42-300 and -320. As a consequence, flaps 45 is only allowed for emergency landing in normal atmospheric conditions. All later variants have the flaps limited to 35 degrees (ATR 42) or 30 degrees (ATR 72).

[@shivapoudel9059]

@@FlywithMagnar thankyou sir

[@carldchiafullo1394]

Again is The AR 72 equipped with deicing unit? If not, why hasent the manufacturer taken steps to be required to make these available for safety requirement?

[@Sokol10]

ATR-72 have a combination of electric devices and pneumatic rubber boots in the wings and engine nacelles.

[@weilee9900]

Nice video, capt.!

[@marcg1686]

@FlywithMagnar At the time that Flight 4184 crashed, did the flight manual prohibit the use of the autopilot when entering icing conditions?

[@FlywithMagnar]

No, that was a temporary limitation implemented after the accident with Flight 4184. The ban was lifted after the de-icing boots had been reedsigned and the procedures revised. The manuals now tell the pilots to disengage the autopilot when they suspect severe icing. Otherwise, the autopilot can be used.

[@marcg1686]

@@FlywithMagnar Thanks for your quick response. One final question. Looking at photos on Airlinersdotnet, it would seem that all ATR 72 left the factory equipped with the Ice Evidence Probe. If I understand it correctly the early 42 didn't need an IEP because the pilots could witness ice accretion on the propeller spinners. Were spinners illuminated at night?

[@FlywithMagnar]

Yes, early ATR 42s did not have ice evidence probe. The aircraft has a light illuminating the propeller spinner and outer part of the wing. But the ice evidence probe is much better. Therefore, it is standard today.

[@marcg1686]

@@FlywithMagnar Thanks. Looking forward to your review of the Voepass Flight 2283. The preliminary report is out. It's not looking good for the crew.

[@wilfredotoledo9518]

Great video!

[@CamiloSanchez1979]

4:30 There it is.

[@darrenobrien6253]

Hi great content. I have a question???? On the condition Levers at the top setting what does the 100% OVRD Mean please.

[@FlywithMagnar]

When the condition levers are in "AUTO" position, propeller RPM is regulated automatically by the PEC (Propeller Electronic control). "100% OVRD" is a manual override and is used when the PEC is inoperative or when the procedure calls for it. This video explains how it works: kzbin.info/www/bejne/mJbLonpqedxjfdE

[@darrenobrien6253]

Thank you Captain. Keep up the great work, your information content is totally amazing.

[@darrenobrien6253]

@@FlywithMagnar Happy Christmas Captain

[@carldchiafullo1394]

What about deicing units on these airplanes?

[@gauravtripathy7297]

Latest severe Icing memo item says IAS : Icing bug + 30

[@FlywithMagnar]

QRH for 72-600, revision 10 also says: "Icing bug if flaps 15 extended." And further down, the checklist says that if you are unable to accelerate to and maintain IAS above icing bug +30 with flaps 0, your bank angle is restricted to 15°.

[@cruxader27]

During recovery in severe icing with unusual roll response or uncommanded roll control, is it alright to extend flaps 15 even when at speeds above Vfe15?

[@FlywithMagnar]

Yes, in such a situation, you should set flaps 15 even the speed is above Vfe15. This reduces the stall speed with about 15 knots, which can be crucial for recovery. During certification tests, the airplane has been flown beyond speed limitations to demonstrate a safety margin.

[@shivapoudel9059]

@@FlywithMagnar but we have to fly at 185 knots max throughtout after flaps extension in icing condition.if we have 165 red bug then 185 knots is only 20 knots above red bug.is it ok sir what is your opinion ?

[@FlywithMagnar]

The checklist for severe icing says the following: With flaps 0, your minimum speed is icing bug +30. With flaps 15, your minimum speed is icing bug. If your speed is less than those limitations, then you must limit the bank angle to 15 degrees.

[@shivapoudel9059]

@@FlywithMagnar thankyou sir.i mean extending flaps 15 in atr 72 limits remaining flight in max speed of 185 knots vfe.and further more in a upset recovery speed can go above vmo .is it safe always to extend flaps 15 even speed is near vmo in upset condition?

[@FlywithMagnar]

@@shivapoudel9059 An upset usually happens at a relatively low speed. Then it's important to set flaps 15 to regain control. But Vmo is 250 kt. It's not necessary to set flaps 15 when the speed is that high.

[@prmath]

Do these planes have de icing heaters on the leading edge of the wings?

[@FlywithMagnar]

Not heaters, but pneumatic boots. They are inflating and deflating, breaking off the ice. This video explains the system: kzbin.info/www/bejne/rXOceoyAqpdkm5Y

[@prmath]

@@FlywithMagnar thank you

[@drogaeobraia.958]

Sou leigo e já voei apenas no flight simulator, mas pelo que o professor está ensinando aí... penso que o piloto poderia estar voando em piloto automático e como a condição de gelo era severa, o gelo se formou rápido e o piloto automático foi compensando até não dar mais.. daí quando o piloto pegou já estava muito estolado e não dava para fazer nada.. ou ainda, pelo que o professor falou, dependendo do local de formação do gelo podem exigir ações opostas do piloto... ele pode ter retomado o controle manual com a aeronave já totalmente estolada e ainda ter errado na ação de correção por não identificar exatamente onde estava o gelo... sei lá..

[@AlexCarloss]

É por aí. Talvez os pilotos não tenham tido treinamento suficiente para esta situação, talvez. Veja o video "GELO EM VOO NO BRASIL", no canal Branco Aviação, ele repete exatamente as mesmas instruções. O video é de 2 anos atrás.

[@drogaeobraia.958]

Pelo que o professor explicou, se os alertas forem observados a tempo, é possivel recuperar a velocidade.. porem por alguma razao, no caso do Brasil, aparentemente ele demorou para agir inicialmente e após agir ou colocar o aviao no manual fez alguma acao instintiva que aumentou o angulo de ataque e reduziu mais a velocidade..

[@AlexCarloss]

@@drogaeobraia.958 Sim. A investigação irá esclarecer. Relatório preliminar previsto para daqui á 30 dias.

[@drogaeobraia.958]

O que me chamou a atencao foi que ele estava em 17 mil pes, caiu rapidamente para 16,7 mil e depois subiu bruscamente para 17,3 e ai caiu.. ou seja, aparentemente a reacao seria descer e recuperar velocidade mas ele subiu e perdeu mais velocidade... vamos ver o relatorio

[@AlexCarloss]

@@drogaeobraia.958 Veja o video do Branco Aviação, lá ele fala que pode ocorrer uma subida antes do stall. Com gelo nas asas a subida vai causar maior perda de velocidade E repare que o video é de 2022.

[@bkstroh]

In this day in age we can't make it so the pilot can see these blind spots where ice can build up? Why not put some cameras that they can use to check these areas when needed. Plane manufactures and airlines need to get with the times.

[@FlywithMagnar]

Outside the captain's side window there is an ice evidence probe. It will collect ice at the same rate as other parts of the airframe. As long as there is ice on this probe, the pilots know there is ice on the airframe.

[@TheGarlicMan]

@12:23 why has the captain only got one arm?

[@FlywithMagnar]

That's me. My left arm is not visible because the test button is on a panel on my left side.

[@TheGarlicMan]

@@FlywithMagnar I was only kidding. On a serious note I found this particular video very useful. I'm not on the ATR but I have learnt a few things I didn't know that I will apply to my real world flying. Thanks.

[@JorgeSilva0]

Mayday, season 7, ep. 8

[@manoelmiguel5229]

The thing is that from now on, due to global warming and changes in natural climate, flying in low altitude like ATR and tuboprop planes do is not safe anymore.

[@richarddumont5389]

Or may cause conditions to which people - locally- are not familiar with…

[@flightfernando]

🇧🇷Condolences to President Lula da Silva and Brazilian people affected. My heart goes out to their families😢

[@VictorSilva-qf2tu]

Fodase o lula e os políticos que usam tragedias como palanque

[@AlbertoPirrotta]

Thanks a lot for your video !!!