Magic Price Crash Situation Is Crazy

[@beckett498]

The reason this issue happened actually is because the people in Springfield are eating all the magic cards

[@arkiece1]

THEYRE EATING THE CAULDRON FAMILIARS

[@AlmightyEnel]

It’s the white people

[@ItsFlom]

So said WOTC Trump, aka Wiz Trump :D

[@LinktotheFuture-zs9km]

THEYRE EATING THE CARDS

[@Otacon2099]

@@arkiece1 OMG NOOOO *lmao

[@Marijuanajoseph]

Dumping their expensive cardboard for 1/4 what they paid for it while simultaneously demanding the ban be reversed so the price goes back up is peak Magic "investor"

[@athath2010]

well, presumably it's not the same people doing both things, yeah?

[@pasta-and-heroin]

@@athath2010 nope, they're definitely eating both the dogs AND the cats - idk if they do it simultaneously

[@adamnielson42]

There's gotta be a name for this fallacy cuz I see it so often with, assuming all a groups members are the same.@@athath2010

[@sofattia7940]

I don’t have a dog in this race at all I don’t even play paper irl anymore but this comment is exceptionally smooth brained lol it’s clearly not the same people demanding both

[@aR0ttenBANANA]

Isn’t this just a perfect argument in favour of this NOT being about investment then?

[@ShepherdV]

Atrioc made me invested in 2.5 minutes then tells me the guys dead

[@colonelblars9126]

he was a really cool dude. Air force vet, was in a metal band, then he got an English degree and a masters (which is how I know him I don't even play Magic). the dude was living a dream life and he was adored by pretty much everyone. I'm sorry to hear about his passing but Commander format is an incredible legacy to leave behind.

[@khrishp]

Textbook Greek Trageding

[@xavs3245]

​@@colonelblars9126wait what you knew him from college???

[@worldatwar956]

Gege moment

[@thewheelsman29]

Yeah, great guy. He banned one of my 9 favorite cards, Emrakul the Aeons Torn because it was pubstomping and there was outrage, but other than that great guy.

[@VoidOfAnAtlas]

This reminds me of when uno said "you can't stack plus twos", and someone replied with "you make the cards, but we'll take it from here". Like who gives a sh!t. You can make your own house rules when playing any game, so just allow the banned cards to be played. If you don't like the rules WotC is gonna make, don't follow them... it's not like they're gonna sue you, you can choose how to play the game.

[@kyle784]

It seems the core of the game is have fun as you want it so this would probably only matter in public venues or sanctioned tournaments of some kind. It seems like they made sense to ban as well if they were in so many decks and lowered the variety of played cards.

[@ticklord]

There are a lot of people that play magic with strangers which the expectation is to follow the ban list generally. You can still ask rule zero but definitely expect people to say no​@@kyle784

[@bibsp3556]

Yeah, and for official games, it's their rules. They've gotta take the whole.meta into account. It's not that big a deal lmao

[@jimbob4004]

Magic is something largely played in organized events like tournaments, so while house rules may work if you play at your home the vast majority of people play in organized settings that will usually use whatever the generally agreed upon rules are. This is done because it would be unnecessarily complicated to have different rules at each tournament, and would make an already difficult to get into hobby even more fractured and disjointed. Tournaments will adopt Wizards' rules if those become the default for Commander, and that will almost inevitably be the case if the previous hub of fan consensus (the RC) nominates them to take over.

[@VoidOfAnAtlas]

@@jimbob4004 yeah, you and another person did mention this, and it makes complete sense thb. I do wonder however, in the future would people make events with their own rules for different player groups. Mabey like an og commander event, a wotc based event, etc. There seems like there is a big fan base for different rule sets, so it could be a possibility, although it may be difficult for new players as you mentioned.

[@jish55]

As a magic player, I feel nothing for the people who's cards lost value, because I believe no magic card should be worth more than $10 a card.

[@KivaUnderscore]

I think it is fine for special printings to be worth (a lot) more, but every card should have a base printing that is accessible for "cheap".

[@Sleekxify]

I've never played magic, but is it illegal to just copy/print whatever cards you want? If so wouldn't that make it affordable for everyone to play?

[@Cuberider]

​@@Sleekxify You can technically proxy them or just print them out, but there are quite a few 'elitists' running around in LGS' that say "If you dont own the card then you're not allowed to play with it".

[@Sleekxify]

@@Cuberider thanks, I was thinking other players would shame you in doing that, so I guess it's depending on who hosts the tournament or so?

[@finnsharma6331]

In basically no tournaments can you proxy however depending on your table it's sometimes done in casual play

[@zvb7311]

If people stopped treating card games as investment opportunities, the world would be a better place

[@r3zaful]

Yugioh have an aggressive reprinting policy in Asia ocg, and even last tactical try deck is around 1k yen and you can straight go to tournaments with it.

[@jarad9946]

there is a direct correlation between second hand card prices and the health and longevity of the card game. there is a reason there is no succesfully running LCG's

[@LionEagleOx]

If what I am buying is accentually worthless to not worth spending money on, what makes me what to buy anything to keep the game going? If you don't want to spend money on a hobby, don't get hobbies. If you don't want to spend money on MTG, don't play MTG.

[@trexasaurus5322]

Issue is, if you reprint everything to oblivion and every new set has billions of cards, the sealed value will tank and the set will fail. It will also cause LGS’s to go out of business. You have to have some sort of value in card games or they flop

[@sez7612]

I buy Pokémon cards cause I collect them. whenever I buy packs I know I will lose money and I am fine with it. Recently there has been so many people going into these hobbies to try to make a profit, especially in the Pokémon space the amount of scalpers are insane.

[@-Sai]

Seriously investing in something that could be reprinted or banned at anytime is legit braindead

[@OnePointSafety]

Investing in trading cards is braindead

[@yellaturd]

@@OnePointSafety how is it different to investing in anything else? It's all speculative.

[@JefroDestroyer]

The same people "investing" in expensive cards also get angry when normal people print off unofficial versions of the card

[@marianvajda785]

@@yellaturd Completely. It is not about being speculative, its the point that you buy something in the supply/demand chain, but the supply can actually be changed at any moment. That does not happen in the stock market.

[@Alsry1]

​@@yellaturd because the price can be solely determined by a single entity.

[@hendrikrasmus]

It wasn't over 4 cards, it was 3. No one mourned the loss of Nadu.

[@BarginsGalore]

anyone who was investing in nadu is actually to dumb to have money. that thing was basically banned before release

[@ninjatom9]

I guess I'm no one 😢

[@lioco6124]

@@ninjatom9 fucking nadu players /j

[@animalchin5082]

​@@ninjatom9the bird is dead 🎉

[@DKlubSub]

​@@ninjatom9nadu is still a mess of an OP card and the fact that this bozo is a 3MV that can stand alone is insane. yeah brother, you're absolutely correct. i would mourn it if its a 4MV

[@t-_minus-7370]

The, “The ‘______’ Situation Is Crazy”, situation is crazy

[@alexholker1309]

This week, a company that once sent the Pinkertons to "confiscate" somebody's legally purchased property feigns the moral high ground over online intimidation.

[@tegg7017]

Wasnt it Hasbro not wizards?

[@rhysredin3030]

@@tegg7017 Hasbro owns Wizards

[@alexholker1309]

@@tegg7017 Wizards is part of Hasbro, and it was a Wizards product.

[@albertarvadottosen3512]

⁠@@tegg7017Hasbro owns wizards of the coast and it was in response to a magic leak.

[@taz4659]

​@@tegg7017 hasbro owns wizards

[@jackthorndyke3390]

People in chat were pointing it out, but the new "power tier" thing is very reminiscent of what Pokemon Showdown does, where they have different tiers with different pokemon banned so that any pokemon is viable so long as you play the right format. It's a pretty cool system, but it's hard to imagine that a company with profit incentives is going to be able to pull it off nearly as well.

[@Teddy_k847]

Yeah, I don’t get why he’s knocking that. It seems like the best system

[@mrmcawesome9746]

​@@Teddy_k847 Most of its issues stem from deciding on which format which card belongs to and which format ought to be considered the "main" one. With Pokemon Showdown a lot of this is done through just usage statistics and community votes, but put a company in charge and they _will_ try to promote whatever format makes them the most money and make balancing decisions with the same in mind (which we literally see with Pokemon's official VGC format run by The Pokemon Company).

[@battlebots1]

I believe the rules committee was already working with wizards on this power tier system long before this incident

[@lioco6124]

as far as im aware, its not a system where different cards are banned in different tiers, but a system for ranking the power of existing decks. so basically the same thing

[@fluffyfang4213]

​@@Teddy_k847 Didn't sound like he was knocking it, but also, I can't see it going well. Maybe if the rank only applied to the Commander card, it'd would like Pokemon. But trying to tier every card would be like applying a tier to every Pokemon ability, move, and held item as well. Maaaassively cuts down on viable combinations on anything but the highest tier.

[@jairad2654]

This absolutely pissed me off as a non-MTG player, Sheldon’s entire life’s work of keeping an essentially union-based system got completely wiped in a weekend??

[@silphonym]

More like "council of elders" then union, the RC wasn't an elected body AFAIK.

[@JefroDestroyer]

@@jairad2654 as an MTG player im way more annoyed that the weird crypto bro players sent so many death threats to the committee that the had to resign. Sheldon's created this format and now its the biggest gamemode

[@xXCasta21Xx]

Yup, that’s the funniest part! 😅

[@shreycod4]

@@JefroDestroyer When are people going to stop calling tweets "death threats". There is literally no threat, the gap between typing a mean message on your keyboard and doing something in real life is so huge. Stop pretending anyone's life is in danger over this dumb shit. The harassment is obviously bad but branding it like this is so hysterical.

[@jacobnorris8256]

@@shreycod4 There *is* a real threat because psychos who track people on the internet do in fact exist. It's *unlikely* that anyone is going to follow up on a death threat, but it's absolutely not impossible, particularly if the target is a public persona of some kind.

[@onechippyboi]

Friendly reminder to everyone that MTG has over 27,000 unique cards, and banning just 4 of them caused this; in a format that was supposed to be about having fun. That's how you know that those cards deserved to be banned. IMO the MTG community deserves everything that they get from this point on. Edit: I want to be clear, I don't think the entire community is awful, its a few loud people freaking out and crashing out over a card game. Most people were mature about it. When I say that the MTG community deserves what's coming, I mean that hopefully it's apparent what was lost and everyone can reflect on how they acted and maybe some people who acted irrationally will learn a valuable lesson. As for everyone else... We should just all be used to dumb people ruining everything for the rest of us, that's life. I also just want to add, its just like the people who lost all their money on dogecoin after Elon went on SNL, no one feels sorry for people who got burned by that. You knew what you were getting into when you bought a single trading card for $150 (it's a printed and laminated piece of cardstock btw). Dumb investors getting burned yet again, imagine my shock.

[@fdsajklre]

lol they hate the woman so much they would rather a faceless corporation have all the power instead of a woman having 20% of the power.

[@LordOfTheFatties]

as a huge commander nerd, I agree. this is the poison the community demanded to drink.

[@chicksandwich]

Nah. That ban set the precedent that we cant have anything nice.

[@GoGoRoboto]

The kind of people that feel the need to buy those cards are the same people who will get extraordinarily pissed when they're banned. I personally don't get CEDH outside of actual money tournaments. These decks end the game in 3-4 turns often... You're paying 10-20x the money for a much shorter game with usually little deck depth.

[@belialatrocity9166]

@@GoGoRoboto I agree with all of this but the part about little deck depth, the way everything interacts and the way wincons work, and then matchups and how stax pieces make the way you evolve your hand change makes me feel like cEDH is a very fun, nuanced like version of Magic that feels really stupid to people who didn't get really, really into cEDH. Also yeh sorry I explained the feeling cEDH gives me (and probably other dedicated cEDH fans feel) as poorly as possible lol. I guess im trying to say long story short cEDH is very fast, and games are really short comparatively but they're still as fun (if not more fun atleast to me) then normal EDH. Wow I'm yapping.

[@DetohGames]

As a long term MTG EDH/Commander player, these bans are 100% justified. The value of cards shouldnt be considered for the health of the game. These cards are game pieces first

[@Darmanarnar]

no they should be reserved for competitive games no bans needed, banning 4 cards wont make the format healthier just a precedent to ban anything that is good.

[@danlorett2184]

Nadu is justified. Banning Crypt and Jeweled Lotus can't be justified without banning Sol Ring. Dockside is a literal WTF ban, someone melted their crack pipe thinking that one up. Frankly anything that hastens the demise of Commander is good. What an AWFUL format, singleton 100 card decks is the dumbest idea ever.

[@DetohGames]

@@Darmanarnar dividing the game further into two separate communities isn't the best solution in my opinion. People had a hard enough time following a split ban list of banned as commander and banned in the 99. Trying to do a banned in competition settings vs casual settings would just cause confusion

[@DetohGames]

@@danlorett2184 while I agree sol is powerful, the issue is it being in every precon ever would cause a lot of problems

[@veraudinus5818]

@@danlorett2184singleton 100 card format is MUCH cheaper for literally anyone to get into because you don’t need 4 copies of a 40$ card on the low end to be competitive. Standard/ “normal” Magic is way worse.

[@LibertyMonk]

The "4 power levels" thing sounds a lot like Pokemon Smogon tiers, where you "ban" all the format-breaking cards to "ubers" (tier 5 here), then Overused is the tier 4 where you can't play the banned stuff, but anything else goes. Then there's an Underused tier that can play most things, but not any of the meta cornerstones of the Overused tier, and has it's own banned list for cards/pokemon that would warp the lower powered format

[@Pulstar232]

The problem is that decks are much larger than just 6 pokemon, and if just ONE card brings you to the next tier, it will kill decks that use cards that are scattered throughout each tier, since it forces you into the highest possible tier. Assuming that's how it works(high likelihood). I mean I mostly play YuGiOh, not MTG but I can see how breaking this up into tiers would absolutely murder many many decks. The absolute BEST case scenario I can imagine is just having the commanders themselves be tiered, but nothing else.

[@thomasdick6797]

​@Pulstar232 you are correct. Best way is to just rank the commanders. Everyone already understands that some of them are totally unfun and broken and oppressive. And they understand that some are jank machines that are pretty bad but fun if they work

[@super_steven]

Glizzards of the Coast

[@FaultyWirestv]

I like that i saw this comment immediately following several paragraphs of dense arguments

[@fullmetalpwn]

*Goast

[@goose9515]

Sarah reads all the comments so i take satisfaction in that he'll read this at some point

[@fillphd]

It all stems from greed. Greed from Wotc who price gouge their own cardboard products, and greed from the players who treat the game as only investment

[@technetium9653]

This idea of "price gouging" only works if you concede wotc have been benevolent the whole other time and weren't trying to make as much money as physically possible

[@kidomniman8635]

Corporate greed is not only to be expected but it is the legal obligation of the corporation to maximize profits. That is a problem all across modern society. Wotc is not only mtg but dnd as well and hasbro owns wotc. Seeing how differently the dnd community and mtg community behave in the face of hasbro's corporate goals is truly amazing. The mtg community shells out so much money both on the primary and secondary markets and the player base is heavily divided between people that want it to be expensive, people that want it to be affordable, and people that want to play but don't because of the costs. A few pay to win style cards get banned and the people that spent all that money to have an advantage over the rest of the community start with death threats to try and ensure that their financial advantage will continue to make the game less fun for the rest of the community. Hasbro tried to end the open license for dnd which just straight up allowed other people to make money off their intellectual property and the dnd community unified and took action showing hasbro that the community does not need them and will collectively work together to keep having fun without hasbro's products and hasbro had to back down. One community has a sub community practically begging wotc to monetize their hobby even more while the other essentially showed wotc what rule zero really means and put hasbro in its place.

[@matthewjohnson3656]

Price gauging is only a thing when you are selling an item or service that people have to have to live. Cardboard is not such a thing. It’s not even a psychologically addicting game like gambling. They are just milking their whales like every other cookie clicker game on the planet. If people didn’t pay their stupid high prices they would have to lower them

[@3nertia]

Welcome to capitalism ...

[@STELLARMIGHTY]

💯

[@TiagoRodrigues-oz4qs]

As a yugioh player seeing people get mad about a ban in an "alternative" format is INSANE!

[@bgammax5842]

It is the most popular magic format after all

[@slicvic00]

Dude I was waiting for this comment. It's like if I tried to sue Konami after they banned Zoo or Spyral LMFAOO

[@TheSmartCinema]

it really just shows how many manchild are part of the community

[@r3zaful]

Maybe because we do play yugioh, we love the game not because of the returns.

[@vert2048]

In Magic, bans are not nearly as common as Yu-Gi-Oh, where bans are usually done as a form of rotation. Also commander is pretty much THE format nowadays. Though obviously I don't condone any of the horrible backlash and definitely think all four of these cards are banworthy.

[@Aaaaaagnes]

One thing not noted was that EVERYONE knew that Nadu, Winged Wisdom was going to be banned.

[@10Pugz]

best statement " ....this card we talking about was in almost everyones Commander deck.... " yeah i thing he confused Manacrypt with Solring.

[@thraxus6661]

A couple things, I'm not sure if you elaborated on this live or not but: 1) Wizards didn't *really* yoink control in this opportunity. You did cover that the RC handed control over, but they do a lot in the article to explain that the RC figured they couldn't handle this by themselves anymore. WotC has announced that they will make a "commander play group" that will most likely have former RC and CAG members on it, so it's not completely a power grab, but I'm also weary of what will happen 2) The bracket system was something that the RC talked about making in conjunction with WotC before they announced the system in their live stream later. The RC talked about tools that they were helping to create to help players find more suitable games to their preferred liking. I'm 100% with you on the concerns and financial incentives, but only time will prove that one way or the other 3) A personal thing I guess here, but not every player who was upset about the bans didn't want WotC to take over. I heard multiple people in my LGS on the duskmourn release day draft saying that they really wished WotC would take over. I'm not really sure what goes through their heads, they also mostly worship Elon so they're probably just all gigachads that are smarter than me

[@alexxander966]

If they are Elon superfans then they are not smarter than you

[@BarginsGalore]

the RC being “separate” from wizards only benefits themselves. when they’re separate they can just bounce accountability back and forth “sorry we had to ban this but don’t be mad at us cause wizards should never have printed” “sorry they banned that but don’t be mad at us they’re the one that banned it”. It don’t help the players at all to have the regulatory system be so obfuscated

[@thraxus6661]

@@alexxander966 I was responding with how I would assume big a world have lmao

[@thraxus6661]

@BarginsGalore a game/format being in the hands of the players, even if it's a select few, is better for the community than a corporation, full stop. We can argue back and forth about the pros and cons, but wizards will always have to answer to hasbro and with how corporations change we can't guarantee they will always be "community centric"

[@KivaUnderscore]

@@alexxander966 that was sarcasm

[@nodestar6245]

Im just imagining Travis explaining the magic stock market to atrioc and then a day later flying across the globe to ask Faker what his favorite anime is

[@vinnyworld1234]

Jokes on you I already pre watched this in the VOD

[@kierano8390]

jokes on me, i have a job and cant watch vods xD

[@MessyMasyn]

pre watcher? eugh

[@yugibro6527]

-Magic players: Card gets banned, price goes down -Yugioh players: “First time huh?”

[@dubbyplays]

I knew I couldn't possibly be original, f me

[@Bieks1]

this has been a thing in magic for longer than yugioh has even existed lmao

[@jonstapleton2340]

@@Bieks1 I know dude Yugioh kids acting like they are Grizzled vets over MTG players is a laugh.

[@talonssaberos419]

Wizards cant run their game. Has introduced overly complicated mechanics and made it completely impossible for anyone who isnt a full time magic player (like spending 40+ hrs a week playing, researching) feel completely alienated from the game. Not to mention the artwork is uninspired , the secondary market is tanking and the people left in the player base are whiney, rude neckbeards who are poorly adjusted to society

[@3nertia]

"Is it no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society" - Jiddu Krishnamurti

[@GlassJ0e]

When they came out with a big pile of low mana planes walkers I quit following. Those cards just came in and turned a fun game into a memory game. They did nothing but sit on the board and threaten you with multiple underwhelming abilities that you have to track. I just have a bunch of legacy 60 card decks that work well enough against each other and threaten the old classic win cons like too many Goblins, or 1 insanely large kraken/eldrazi, Mill and Control. Magic needs to simplify before the LGS becomes even more of a wasteland.

[@DrSpoculus]

Bro, I haven't played in over 2 years and sat down to play yesterday and everything was fine. Nobody has to spend time to play the game. Just sit down and play it. All the extra learning and whatnot, that's stress you put on yourself. Nobody is requiring any of that to simply play the game and have fun. If you're worried about competitions and ranks... that's something you chose to put on yourself. You don't have to do any of that. It's a choice.

[@GlassJ0e]

@@DrSpoculus This is how EDH got so popular. People who wanted to have fun and drink some brews with their friends just popped out and made their own format. I guess Wizards needs to be reminded that the standard spike money traps they set up just alienate most people while ensuring the LGS will only ever be populated with angry broke virgins. 😂

[@bgammax5842]

Love how we pass over Nadu. We all want to forget his existence

[@bassbazz1644]

Type shit

[@isambo400]

Yeah f that card

[@reezee9599]

This is proof we are in a recession

[@greenoftreeblackofblue6625]

Yes idiotic investment in things that can literally get banned and lose all value. Falling for scams/investment traps. Being Scammed.

[@greenoftreeblackofblue6625]

The real life equalization of NFT's failing is not proof of a recession dog. Sorry your monkey failed.

[@kidomniman8635]

And here is a new most neckbeard thing i have ever heard. "There was a ban in a card game so that proves we are in a recession" A volunteer rules committee for a fan created format of a trading card game has the power to cause a recession...

[@chubbyanemone696]

​@@kidomniman8635 it's a joke

[@raphg6319]

USA has had two consecutive quarters of negative gross domestic product (GDP) growth in 2022, which indicate a recession.

[@fritothedemon6647]

Never been a better ad for using proxies

[@Jesayou]

IKR who knew land cards can have paper glued over the top of them.

[@0106johnny]

And playing the game for the love of the game instead of treating it as an investment portfolio

[@BigBlack81]

@@0106johnny Been a Cockatrice lover ever since I realized that even in digital form, I never want to invest in MtG but PLAY IT. Cockatrice lets me love the gameplay for what it is and what it can be.

[@robbiestrong-morse730]

As an avid magic player I have two very important notes. One is that magic already has a pretty massive divide between 60/40 card players, and commander players. While there is plenty of overlap, there are also many comp players who think commander is bad for magic(I disagree, but nevertheless), and some commander players who view comp players as elitist. Second, Many people thought rule 0 was already kinda falling apart, because it can still be very complicated, and is something of a band-aid on the bullethole of people wanting different strength decks.

[@danlorett2184]

I hate commander because it exacerbates the basic problems with MTG: drawing random cards/consistency. I get that the singleton restriction was to try and force people to be creative. It did the opposite - everyone just plays the best version of a card (counterspell etc) and then just 7 more bad copies of it. On top of that it introduces everyone's least favorite part of Monopoly: POLITICS. Most commander games are decided by dumb politicking, which isn't even playing magic anymore. And then it's extremely expensive too. And we popularized THIS instead of Cube Draft. What a colossal mistake.

[@NOFOCKYOU]

Commander is not bad for magic, it lets people who suck at the game have a format where they can play amongst themselves. Most commander players have no clue what is going on or any basic understanding of strategy which is why playing commander is extremely not fun for a competitive player. Sitting there watching low IQ people make the worst plays over and over again is why good players don't play Commander.

[@NOFOCKYOU]

@TallTaleGael Well it is meant for casuals. Also anyone who played during the early 2000's era of magic sees magic different than people today. People who played magic back then tried to be the best cause there was pro tour etc to strive for. The 2000's magic player mindset is to win vs the later generations of magic players who are more "for fun." And those 2 mindsets don't play well together, basically to enjoy commander as a good player you need to play with other good players but the problem is most good players hate commander.

[@GlassJ0e]

@@NOFOCKYOU Agreed except to say that new players need a gentler format than EDH. The duel deck sets back in the day were an opportunity to get a well balanced rotation of decks pre constructed for noobs to learn with. Instead they just kind of made a box set with a few tasty treasures like Demonic Tutor. EDH is dumb. One guy in the pod always winds up with something broken that he sunk hundreds into…eventually the pod tells him to stop spamming his broken Kaalia of the vast deck and he breaks the game with another 200 bucks on a combo deck full of expensive tutors.

[@theowlotaku1]

This was always going to happen, it was foretold as soon as Wizards decided to recognize Commander as a format. Also, you're not too bright if you invest into a cardboard game, this coming from someone that has played Magic for 2 decades.

[@LakeGameCreepr]

Have they tried lowering interest rates

[@Sleeqb7]

As a deeply invested MTG player; Sheldon didn't create Commander, but he was considered the 'godfather' of the format because his championing of it and he was guiding the direction of the RC. Mana crypt was definitely not in "almost everyone's commander deck", because it was hugely expensive. Most players play casually and do not drop $150+ on single cards. It's only the super invested mega fans. And to say that some people had 'hundreds' of them is pretty unlikely outside of a single few investors. The RC approached WotC to take over the format, not the other way around. After doxing and credible death threats, can't really blame them. The opinion on the bans were like 50/50 for people for and against the bans. I don't think it's super likely that Crypt and Lotus get unbanned. The people who dumped their cards would be mad, and it would be sending the message "Send death threats and you get what you want".

[@CT-zt8je]

It's also great for Wizards if cards get banned. That's literally HOW Jeweled lotus was created. Black Lotus is banned in commander, because it's expensive and they don't want players thinking that you need to spend 1000$ to play commoander. That's Literally what it says on the justification for the ban. Then Wizards makes a new card which is basically Black Lotus but for ANY color, with a commander only stipulation (the most important card in the format usually) When it comes out, that might be fine, but by the time that card reaches 150$? guess what? it's not got even more justification than Black Lotus does for a ban.

[@MrNotBot]

@@CT-zt8je WoTC controls the print run. They could have printed it to oblivion like they did with Sol Ring. Secondly, the community has expecting the Jeweled Lotus ban pretty much as soon as the card came out. When it didn't get banned, it was assumed the card would stay unbanned for the foreseeable future. Bans being rare is what drives people to the format and makes expensive purchases easier to swallow.

[@Voyajer.]

Jeweled lotus shouldn't have ever even been made

[@Devilinabag]

Putting a ban list on a format that comes with "house rules" rule is really dumb. I think bans are dumb anyways. "Most decks run these 4 cards" well more decks run some form of removal so wheres the issue?

[@mattlel3194]

5:00 freddiew brother lol, two of the biggest youtube ogs. miss the VGHS and NODE days

[@47ejecting2]

6:53 I legitimately thought it was the sole person without glasses, as if wearing glasses was a prereq of being an MtG judge.

[@MrSpako13]

As a yugioh player where we get banlist regularly every 3-4 months This entire situation was so stupid

[@Poshriel]

The truth of the matter, good. I'm glad this is happening, if only to massively highlight the problem with TCG Investors. When I was growing up, it was all about making decks and playing with them. Cracking packs and finding the right cards, and occasionally buying a few semi-expensive singles. Now it's more of, " Okay so this set has this much time in it's life cycle, so if I want to be competitive I have to buy x amount of boxes before the prices go up." It just seems like the value of the cards have gone massively up, but the desirability of the cards has decreased dramatically. I didn't grow up playing magic for the ROI on the product. It really drains any fun from TCGs, because the moment it gets popular, the Whales come in. I would love to see a TCG put players first when they see dollar signs, a company that says fuck you to those people, and takes active steps towards preventing these vampiric losers from winning.

[@colonelblars9126]

I was lucky enough to go to school with Sheldon. He was one of the coolest people I've ever had the pleasure of meeting. May he rest in peace.

[@BeforeThisNovember]

Most people are playing with friend for “fun”, right? And using “rule zero”? So why do bans even matter? What am I missing.

[@rishabhsingh3610]

Even the magic bubble popped before GTA VI...

[@joycourier]

thank you for the video Big A & quack, I enjoyed commander casually and had no idea about all the shit going down, really appreciate the summary

[@JGComments]

This is exactly why I am against direct democracy. People are panicky idiots who are, for the most part, incapable of acting in their own long term best interests.

[@frankanderson3368]

Good I hate resellers pretending to be collectors hiking the price of the game.

[@Darmanarnar]

thats no at all what this is the "game" doesn't get more expensive from collecting just the cards that are being collected

[@TheMonkeydela]

My friends and I in highschool knew this as EDH, I'm not sure what it meant but I knew it was waaay more fun than standard. We would usually have 4 players and it would often come down to 2 people forming an "unholy aliance" against the other 2 and that would cause them to team up against us. What makes it unholy was that we could betray the alliance at any time, nothing was in stone. And it often ended up that way. Man high school was fun as fuck, especially being a nerd/stoner at the same time. We had the most fun man

[@TheWeissrond]

We played something similar in the 90s and called it highlander.

[@bodell2285]

it means elder dragon highlander, the original commanders you could use were a set of elder dragons of different color combos

[@TheWeissrond]

@@bodell2285 Allmost, in our local? variant you could play any legendary as your "commander" (it didn't have that designation at that time)

[@fiveheadharu]

Overall a great video as usual! There's another significant piece of context as to why so many Magic players were up in arms over the Mana Crypt and Jeweled Lotus bans in particular. Within the past year, WotC heavily advertised reprints of Mana Crypt and Jeweled Lotus in Lost Caverns of Ixalan and Commander Masters, respectively. They were the highest value "chase" cards in their respective sets; the cards that drive people to buy the product. I don't know what the RC was expecting, really. While I think Mana Crypt and Jeweled Lotus deserved their bans in a vacuum, I also think that banning two cards that WotC heavily marketed to players within a years time could only breed ill will. Especially when those bans weren't a unanimous decision. The details of Olivia's dissenting opinion on the ban makes it apparent that WotC's four tier power bracket was likely already in the works before the bans were pushed through. The RC also kept the Advisory Group in the dark about the bans. I think this whole debacle was ill-advided and could only result in a lose-lose scenario. People who harassed and threatened people involved are totally indefensible, though. Really disappointing situation on all ends.

[@puddi_Cat]

"We ruined the future of our favorite hobby for someone else's profit." Is probably the best way I saw someone describe this.

[@searchfire3350]

Hey slight correction - the Rules Committee talked about how they were the ones working with WotC to make the new 4 tier system, it wasn't like a WotC conspiracy plan they're continuing what the RC was working on

[@emberke100ful]

Don't worry guys, the secondary market isn't real, WOTC told me so personally!

[@ianglenn2821]

if only this was true for TLT

[@mitchellsheppard2998]

What it means is that wizards of the coast will find a way to destroy the format and drive more people away just like they did with standard

[@BigBlack81]

Peasant says hi. Pauper is great and I play it almost exclusively, but I would love a limited uncommons format to add some spice to some decks.

[@-KillaWatt-]

When I played commander before getting out of the game we always seen the official rules and ban list the same as the "pirates code" from Pirates of the Caribbean. They're more guidelines than anything else. I mean, nobody at the table would care if you played an unglued card. I'm sure many would have preferred you didn't but we also weren't going to ruin game night over it either

[@Breakbeat.]

I want to see the movie of that guy's day with the cards going to the shop. I envision some sort of dark brooding cinematic vibe, sweat under the bill of the cap, shallow breathing. "Do they know about the ban yet? What do I say if they say something? How would it be a coincidence?" Would be a great heist short film.

[@soundrogue4472]

1:27 Commander is an insanely fun format. Outside a few cards, matches don't feel hyper consistent of who is going to win (assuming you built your deck right) and is way better than the OG format.

[@zerogamerpro3146]

Being 80 random cards 19 basic lands and 1 card in your always available area makes it a pretty balanced format when you are 1v1v1v1. High price decks and low price decks can go at each other because everything can happen.

[@soundrogue4472]

@@zerogamerpro3146 Even in 1v1 the format is still fun. Edit: the deck size is also one of the reasons why Brawl just failed to take off.

[@conradadams4500]

As someone into cars, people throwing a temper tamtrum because your card loses $130 makes you look like the world's biggest baby

[@otterfire4712]

Yeah, how dare they decry a third party ban their +$100 card from locals and competitive. How dare they do this after a three year hiatus and with no warning. It'd be the equivalent of DoT banning a specific expensive make/model of a universally usable set of headlights. Players were pissed about RC banning cards that were predominantly seen in higher levels of play, only occasionally seen in lower casual. They bought these cards thinking that they wouldn't be banned especially since these cards were reprinted roughly a year prior to this ban and it was done without warning. Their reasoning was also baffling, they acknowledged the cards' value, said they were cracking down on fast mana (except Sol Ring), and that this ban was purely for casual and no consideration was taken for Competitive. Fast-forward to now, WotC is introducing a bracket system to properly separate casual and competitive power levels so that players can attend locals and not have to worry about an Armageddon being dropped at their casual table without having to rule 0 the card out.

[@jimbo3]

Imagine how car guys would feel if car shows banned V8 engines because of environmental concerns. Your collection of sweet vintage cars would lose value even if the motive was good. Garages would be filled with tears of rage.

[@GlowingWalrus]

@@jimbo3so brainwashed its crazy

[@STELLARMIGHTY]

@@jimbo3you’re comparing a car and not just any car a V8 to a piece of paper 😂😂😂 - you need help

[@jimbo3]

@@STELLARMIGHTY you need to be a better reader. it was a simple analogy

[@merrilly-]

shakespeare could only DREAM about writing a tragedy this good

[@DYNOSRR]

I've played MTG like 4 times, and I didn't even know commander had rules, my friends change them every time

[@drsherifff]

There's multiple cards for Sheldon, actually All of them are reskins for cards he had an association with: Sheldon the Commander: A reskin of his most iconic commander Bene Supremo: The italian version of a card he loved, as he only used that version Inkshield: a special artwork of a card he f*cking helped design Eladamris Vineyard: he had a vineyard Command Tower: A card uniquely associated with the format itself

[@wardue]

Just last night, me and 5 friends got together to nerd out and play magic for a birthday party. Bunch of 30 year olds drinking and joking and having an amazing time. That's what it should really be about, but some people gotta death threat over a 70 dollar drop in value. Greed and terrible behavior will just push new people away from even trying the game and it's sad. Thanks for coming to my TED talk

[@AriIsConfused]

I was kind of hoping the price crash would have to do with Wizards releasing sets so fast. I tried getting into Magic once but idk how anyone can afford to keep up with it.

[@ALECTORMANCY]

I mean if you want a couple tips on how to play on a budget I can give you some. First off is EDH: playing with a $50 precon is pretty fun and if you find a group willing to do the same you can have some great games. You can also build budget commander decs and some pretty good ones a that. The second good way to get into constructed magic on a budget is Pauper. Its an all common card format which naturally means the cards are fairly cheap. Usually going for 50-100$. There are a ton of fun budget ducks with wild and goofy ways to win so I would check out mtg goldfish budget deck lists. I know that 50-100 still isn't actually cheap but I really think it's worth it to amass a few decs for different formats over time. And plus when your done you can just sell them

[@rowdyrager-9403]

Proxies

[@YawgmothWasRight]

Step 1 get a decent printer Step 2 print the shit out of your lists Step 3 there are no more steps, it's done

[@jonnyWisconsin]

I'm told the proxies from china are also really good quality. Pauper sounds fun but those decks are still $100.

[@YawgmothWasRight]

@@jonnyWisconsin they are, as long as you get a good resolution image or order them from a reputable seller

[@BloodKaez]

To clarify the "yoink" part. Wizards didn't want EDH in house. They were happy with the RC existing, and if they didn't like it, it's been almost 20 years of RC control and they only chose now to accept the RC handing them the control. This video makes this sound it sound like WotC just came in and took it. The power bracket was a RC and WotC collaboration (as mentioned in the ban announcement that people glossed over). Also, WotC never said they were unbanning all the cards on the list. That they would revaluate and no additional bannings would happen. But in addition, Gavin said JL was a mistake (so I wouldn't expect that to be unbanned), and if they unban MC or Dockside they are now giving into Death Threats..... which sets a bad precedent. But hey, we'll see.

[@danlorett2184]

Jeweled Lotus being banned just means you need to fire everyone who voted to ban it. Literally the dumbest, 10 IQ move in existence. Banning Crypt really can't be justified either - Sol Ring exists. If you're going to take B&R seriously then you need to stop doing weird exceptions just "because". Dockside is a braindead ban too.

[@thewoofalo631]

I actually really like the power bracket idea, I’m not a magic player and don’t know to much, but I’ve played a lot of smogon, which uses what is effectively a power bracket, and it works really well.

[@skidleydoo]

Great video Big A. I've been following this loosely and you explained it so clearly. Thanks goat 😊

[@PhilomenaMerritt-e5e]

The work you put in shows!

[@ItsFlom]

5:05 ITS JIMMY WONG my discord profile description has been a quote of his from vghs for the past 5 years lmao...

[@griffingarrison2231]

I HAVE WAITED SO LONG FOR AN ATRIOC MTG VIDEO

[@Lasergunjesus]

Magic drama is the worst possible place for that Uno meme. Magic players love a Draw 25.

[@HadusMC]

this vocal minority of magic fans not only did it to themselves but to everyone who plays, that sucks

[@noThankyou-g5c]

6:01 i dont see how these rules effect anything? its an unofficial game. you can play whatever you want

[@DemsW]

I believe it is so popular that there are official events that will follow the rules. Also card games usually have people follow the official rules by the T

[@davidkociak5242]

You are correct that any playgroup can play any card by Rule 0, but a lot of people play Commander at game stores, conventions, and with new play groups that all follow the ban list

[@JayGilby]

Card shops have commander tournaments

[@benjamintodd5637]

Magic is dying...because WotC is dying. I feel like it's that simple.

[@peternguyen1085]

You know what’s crazy? If you wanted to and your group agrees, you could just play the banned cards in your pod…

[@grassCrow]

WOTC has no obiligation to help collectors maintain their investment value. It is a game.

[@pyrojack8230]

Everyone at my LGS aren't really that bummed about the recent banlist. I know some people who have 10-20k on commander and have been playing since the 90s and even they are like "Yeah it was gonna happen eventually." My friend even pulled a List Crypt worth 400 and slotted it into his deck. Man's isn't even that mad about it.

[@1gochisox]

The funny thing to me is nobody I know cares about the ban list for commander if your just playing in your local game shop. This is just a chance for me to get a mana crypt for less then my house

[@hockeygrrlmuse]

Yeah it's weird to think of people trying to make commander a competitive format? It's for fucking around with your friends, nobody needs $180 cards for that shit

[@annjacobs7764]

Now this is my day better!

[@Parthian6]

To me this feels reminiscent of the Smash Bros competitive scene collapse when Panda was bandwagoned out of existence. Obviously the smash community was already a flaming shihhole but the whole narrative of an entitled community jumping to arms and destroying a key element of the scene without stopping to consider the consequences hits close to home. In either case, the community deserves the consequences, especially the bad actors that incited it all, but all the harrasment those people received wont just undo itself... Bunch of losers man

[@sakaraist]

most fun I ever had in magic was either around coldsnap or time spiral. 12 man EDH games at 10pm on a friday night. Everyone would be heading home at like 1 am. a solid 8 hours of mtg every time.

[@HEX_SH4GGY]

Quick notes: - The power bracket system was already in discussion between the RC and WOTC prior to the bans - Wizards didn't "take" over. It was given to them by the RC

[@fanki777]

11:00 sidenote: power lvl card* (not deck). Idea is to when you have full deck you addup power lvl of each card to determine power lvl of whole deck. For example: if all you 100 cards in deck are in bracket 3, you decks power lvl is 300.

[@jonhoge153]

That's got a different name, like "Montreal power grading", idk, I just heard it yesterday, but they specifically chose not to use that idea, and are going with "your deck rating is determined by the highest card".

[@arshiaprogaming7947]

THE WORD SITUATION IS BRAINROT

[@theupson]

capslock is alzheimer rage

[@bryce8758]

Worth noting that the bracket system isn’t even a strict system but more of a way to express your decks power level by the strongest cards in your deck. So for example you could be like “my deck is a 3 cause it runs theses strong cards, but it’s not very strong so it’s more like a 1 or 2” which makes the whole system pointless cause people will just undersell their strong decks in order to run strong cards

[@TCHrulez]

I started playing modern format magic just over 10 years ago. Many of the iconic flagship cards of decks types only had one or 2 printings since their first release over a 3-7 year window. In the last 2 years all those cards have been reprinted 2-4 times, in some instances up to 6 times in about 2 years. It simply doesn't make sense to go from essentially this card is never getting reprinted to reprinting it 2 or 3 times a year.

[@pandapersonpersona4473]

long time magic player been playing for probably 10 years. Impressive Atrioc did his research very well. He hit the nail on the head. The only piece of context he might not have had is it has been a growing sentiment that for the past years printing cards for the purpose of commander has been making commander and all the other formats worse. The banning event came on the heels of the nadu controversy which the cliff notes of are nadu was designed built and ready for shipping and they "redesigned" it because it would be "quote bad for commander" so it went out largely untested and dominated the modern pro tour and they left it unbanned for the RCQ season making modern a DOA for like 3 months for it to then get banned in the format they supposedly designed it for. This is definitely a cliff note in the story but an interesting one for none mtg players to hear about in my opinion. have a good day all

[@robobo1726]

Somebody stopped me on my bike the other day to ask me to buy their magic cards 😂 rip bozo

[@PerfectPencil]

So glad I sold my collection a year ago. Took my bag and left this dumb shit behind.

[@Tristen501]

Omg, I'm tearing up about the parts concerning Olivia. First by her friends defending her and second by her tweet - not wanting to fail the memory of her friend.

[@blaise007films]

Atrioc having lord xander (my favorite comander) is so wild.

[@latrodectusmactans7592]

This entire situation is a good example of how magic as a financial investment comes at the cost of magic as a game.

[@chrisvainio]

Mana crypt was definitely NOT in almost everyone’s deck. It would be in many peoples decks, specifically those lucky enough to have one from a Paul, those that played when the card was released, but as far as the general public goes, it would be people with massive amounts of disposable income, few other financial responsibilities, or poor spending priorities. There are all sorts of magic players out there, lots of people with three or four decks, lots of people who exclusively play kitchen table, lots of people who just like to play board game night with their friends, and who’s life goal is not to be “the greatest magic player in the universe.“

[@chrisvainio]

If it was in every deck, then it would basically be an additional hundred dollar starting fee just to even consider playing the game. There’s no such thing as a perfect protected investment folks, sorry.

[@hockeygrrlmuse]

Came to the comments looking for this exact clarification lol. By "everyone" I'm guessing he meant people who play commander in tournaments?

[@elbe0072]

Wotc really pulled a "I wouldn't say saved, just under new management"

[@orpheos9]

My point of clarification, is that these banned cards were not played by every player. It just seems that way because of many content creators and diehard fans on reddit or other hardcore forums. I play in many pickup games with lots of different randoms (my city has a huge mtg population that goes to stores) and I only saw these cards maybe 5% of the time. And when they did come down, usually the table gave a bit of a stink-eye because it is genuinely not expected to be played at casual tables. So really, all the rage is coming from super hardcore fans, particularly ones that like to buy power and/or pubstomp with cards that are way out of line.

[@matthewsawczyn6592]

It was something like $500 million dollars in (artificial) value instantly lost worldwide

[@Rissoe_Really]

4:54 i am gonna scream please leave me alone

[@WilliamB87]

This was since the start a strategy from Wizzards to take control of it, no one believes that 5 random people can affect so much of the market and the game without any knowledge from Wizzards or the go ahead from them, also they would risk any future print runs that may be in development or already starting to be jeopardized by some random fans.

[@priscillaquinn9505]

That's not what rule 0 is, rules zero is discussing your power levels of your deck before playing so that nobody's surprised or playing unbalanced decks so they match to an extent

[@MrJonyish]

That guy going into the local games store and selling his cards is like that movie clip “we are selling to willing buyers at the fair market price”

[@raymondwilliams379]

One of the things that makes this special. Aside from the powerful cards that get banned every other banlist update. Is that commander was the ONLY format that these cards were used in. They were strong and only available in one format. So basically what it means is that these cards went from extremely useful and the pinnacle of power to absolutely useless in any format from one committee banning them

[@hockeygrrlmuse]

Wait so they were already banned in standard & so on? That makes the resellers sound even stupider tbh, like they just artificially restricted supply to inflate the price for the handful of people who want to play competitive commander for some reason

[@cipheraileron]

Good video! Why isn't anyone actually talking about their choice to ban these cards? Like we all know you shouldn't harass, threaten people... but they made a choice that was really really impactful to tens of thousands of people.. and no one seems to know why other than they were "trying to improve the format". Some of those cards were literally just reprinted this year.. kinda seems like wizards was expecting to be selling those cards into the future.. so I can doubt it was pressure from wotc.. so then what? The RC says "I see these powerful cards showing up too much in games?" That's what a staple of a format is...If it is good, its going to go into decks. If they aren't playable anymore they will be replaced by other staples that will show up in all your games. I feel like the true problem lay in the design of the cards. I know Mana crypt is old but the others all made it past the design approval phase and into products to purchase. Checks, playtesting, etc.. No one piped up "hey these are really good, they are going in every deck I ever make!"? You take one look at Jeweled lotus and think "That's going in my commander deck" Duh. Seems so sus that all this can happen without a wizard exec saying "yeah you can't tell people not to buy our stuff" But alas, they weren't employed by wizards..? I don't think? So strange. I feel for everyone losing money, I've been collecting mtg for years and certainly was effected by this, but it just keeps happening so I can't say I'm shocked. Hopefully there is a reasonable solution to this! Thanks for the rant, cheers!

[@the-engneer]

As someone who plays kitchen table style magic i have never been negatively effected by a ban in any way other than having a card i pulled from a booster go down in price without me knowing it

[@calvintabor5734]

Very insightful. I was wondering why magic would print a card exclusively for commander (jewelled lotus), that is basically only usable in commander, and then ban it for its power level. But the fact that a different team decides the bans based on how much they are abused in play makes sense. It's interesting.

[@PairOfSocksGaming]

nothing funnier than TCG players who will never enter a tournament adhering to a ban-list

[@elifangiullo688]

I mean this is the reason wizards has stated they won’t reprint cards like black lotus. They know that reprinting it would tank the price of the card which would cause major backlash for everyone who owns one. This has been something that has been universally known for magic players is that they don’t like it when their expensive cards lose lots of value.

[@dontcallmebrian5125]

I know you’re like big money boss man Chad already but I just discovered you’re channel and after just two videos you’re one of my favorites; yuh