Attack on Titan Spoilercast | Castle Super Beast 243 Clips

[@anonmcincognito4692]

Thank you Woolie. For spoiling the ending for our sake.

[@rasusbeijaminas2301]

I want more castle super beast! For 10 years at least!

[@z-mac664]

*animorphs into salt*

[@greatskullz6166]

Woolie, what a weeb you are

[@riddlemethat5597]

I can't believe Woolie went back in time and gave Eren's Dad permission to do black face. "Tatakae!" He said. "Tatakae!!"

[@rikimaru700]

Oh woolies what a man you are

[@1wayroad935]

Who would you all trust more to be factually correct about the events of Attack on Titan? Woolie? Pat? or Eren?

[@Yal_Rathol]

tough choice, but i gotta go woolie. i know he's wrong, but he's happy. the other two are wrong and miserable.

[@kapkant6197]

Pat just disliked Eren because he would also do The Rumbling, but he'd do it out of spite despite knowing a better solution unlike Eren

[@gameb9oy]

@@Yal_Ratholhuh, I can’t find fault in this logic

[@1wayroad935]

@@kapkant6197 Eren did the Rumbling because he didn't see a better solution. Pat would do the Rumbling in order to become taller as a Titan Shifter. Pat would end up as the shortest Titan on record.

[@kapkant6197]

​@@1wayroad935the shortest Colossal Titan on record at 4'5. It actually makes him shorter than before

[@clan741]

When pat is asking why Eren chose the genocide route, a friend of mine had a perfect answer. “Eren never changed” remember in episode one after losing everything he went all “I’ll kill them all, every single one of them.” At first that was Titans, and the enemy list expanded over the series, but his answer was always the same. “Kill them all.” Honestly him going world genocide was the only way a character like his would end.

[@NoonMountain]

Yes! Spoilercasts! We need more of these back!

[@Doomroar]

For 10 years at least

[@ViperJoe]

I will never not laugh at the fact that the fandom's name for Eren's master plan is the "Zero IQ Requiem". Eren, what a silly baka you are... definitely 3/10 wits.

[@riddlemethat5597]

"If I looked you in the eye and told you to kill all Eldians, you'd have to do it." *[FFSCHWING]* [Laughing Norio Wakanoto]

[@nicolaschaves7758]

No Dinosaur Titan, we were robbed

[@rahjeel]

NO GIRAFFE TITAN EITHER!

[@kamikazelemming1552]

There was that Snake Titan that chomped down on Levi's leg. You could technically call that a Dinosaur Titan.

[@TheDinohunter2000]

​@@kamikazelemming1552They're not even that closely related! Bird Eren is the actual dinosaur titan.

[@roguemerc]

Also no double fastball special, when it woulda been so easy to fit in the battle. We were def robbed

[@typhonyx_was_taken]

Eren’s theme: True freedom is impossible because true freedom is a world where you are alone, and the desire for freedom will always bind you in a catch 22 Mikasa’s theme: It is not a betrayal of love to hold someone that loves you accountable, and it is not an inherent betrayal of love to unshackle yourself from those bonds Armin’s theme: True good will never flourish due to the inevitability of conflict, but that doesn’t mean being good is pointless; the inevitability of conflict highlights the importance of what goodness remains

[@kamikazelemming1552]

Going back to a topic you guys have brought up previously, during Mass Effect (Don't Explain the Unknowable), I love that we're never given a clear origin for what the Hallucigenia/Titan Parasite even is. All we know is that it's been around for millions, if not billions of years, but aside from that, we never learn why it possesses the powers and abilities that it does, or whether there are more of them somewhere else on the planet. It's also hilarious seeing the characters react to this thing that, even by the standards of what they've seen, is just bizarre. Like, they've been fighting against naked, man-eating giants for years, and suddenly there's this giant worm. They don't even try to figure out what it is, they just see this thing and say, "I don't what the hell that glowing thing is, but we got to kill it before it reaches Eren." And finally, seeing Reiner, a man who has spent a good portion of the series trying to off himself, literally throw hands with the source of life itself, is just a perfect moment for his character.

[@kapkant6197]

I feel like the ending is more optimistic than people give it credit for, in the anime version it's very explicitly a long time before Paradis sees war again because it's after Mikasa and Armin die and it's a Cyberpunk city. They get to live in peace and sure conflict returns because as they say earlier in the show "Mankind will stop fighting when only one human remains." But even after that they show a child and his dog exploring showing that while conflict is inevitable, so is peace. Some further backing for the span of the time is Eren's voice actor saying in the credits song "To you, 20,000 years from now." As for the child himself, I don't personally believe in my own interpretation that he causes the Titans to come back, unlike Ymir he isn't hurt or being chased, he's exploring of his own free will because of his natural curiosity. The dog is even his friend unlike Ymir who was chased by them. Even if you take the ending more cynically I don't personally believe the Titans ever come back, it's just each cycle is a different weapon that wipes everyone out (i.e the nukes that destroy Paradis a century or so later). Anyway my point is I'm built different I coulda saved Sasha and Hange and got Annie to join the heroes in season 1.

[@cjirwin867]

"Anyway my point is I'm built different I coulda saved Sasha and Hange and got Annie to join the heroes in season 1." Based

[@TheInvincibleGuch]

This is a really nice take I haven't seen before! Reminds me of people saying Evangelion's ending is horrible, but it specifically says that people can come back if they so choose to recreate their AT fields and become seperate people again. I'm now wondering if all of the the show that we the viewers have watched might be like a vision the little boy sees to show him how he can change the world for the better, if he does indeed become the new founding titan after receiving the tree worm thing.

[@Dasaltwarrior]

I feel like that's a nice way of interpreting it. There's no eliminating one in favour of the other because they're natural forces that man has to deal with, or at least thats how the story treats them Pandora's box and all that

[@User5770]

This was my takeaway as well. Was war stopped forever? No of course not. But Mikasa lived her life, she had a family, she died (as far as we can tell) peacefully of old age. The same likely applies to the rest of the characters we've followed. They couldn't save things forever (no one can) but they could at least find peace and happiness in their own lifetimes. In some ways it echoes Armin's conversation with Zeke: Zeke's macro-scale nihilism about the nature of life versus Armin's rebuttal that you can still find happiness within your own life, even if the max-zoom existential view of things is terrifying.

[@Exel3nce]

the ending shot is great, cause its simply haunting interpretation with imagery we already seen before, that led to disaster. THAT is a great option to finish something like aot. everything before that.....eh well

[@joebin3106]

Woolie what a man you are Thankyou for becoming a Grand Wizard for our sake

[@Blackheartzero]

_He wasn't already?!_

[@kamikazelemming1552]

Praise be to Lord Yevon, bruddah.

[@NaderinZim]

Woolie, why does your job class says "Grand Wizard"? What's that all about?

[@YetiCoolBrother]

Man, this could've been a great conversation if Pat had actually watched the thing they're talking about

[@derpstick5467]

That’s how I feel with Woolie when Pat talks about any other game that’s not a fighting game, lol see their starfield clip for an example.

[@kapkant6197]

He experienced it in the intended way, Plague of Gripes who hated the ending sending him out of context panels in DMs. He experienced it more than Woolie in a way

[@felipeaguena5289]

Dude, I got so tired of the final season of AOT I considered giving it up, but I forced myself through just to watch their discussion of it...which did not happen. So hooray, double whammy here hahaha

[@MegaBichiX]

I think the idea is no so much "you never had any agency" and more of "no matter how many times you stack dominoes back up or in which directions, you are the still the one choosing to set them up to fall down"

[@NDenizen]

That's fair and if the series had addressed that idea earlier than at the 99% mark, maybe there would be a story. Instead there's a guy saying he "was born into this world" and "values freedom" and "keeps moving forward" and "wants a world without walls" and "needs to see what lies beyond hell" and apparently all of those things he said never mattered and were never relavent at any point. His actions were JUST BECAUSE LOL and us readers are supposed to accept that his meaningful motivations were fake and never true, and the bullshit writing pulled out of nowhere at the end, well now that's the real Eren! Sure, Isayama...

[@weewer3369]

And more importantly, they fall back down BECAUSE Eren wants to do it. It's not just determinism, it's determinism because Eren realizes he is such a slave to freedom that he is okay with doing the Rumbling because it gets him what he wants the most. And because hes okay with it deep down inside, he knows he will ALWAYS DO IT.

[@music79075]

​@@weewer3369it's determinism because Eren can never be free of himself. Everyone else is free. Just not Eren because he enslaves himself to one path forward.

[@patrickzantomaster]

@@NDenizenerens reason was “I can’t do anything to stop this, so I’m going to manifest this as to change the outcome in a direction I think makes the most sense for me”, his motivation was to keep the people he likes and the nation he is from that is going to 100% die if he does nothing let survive because it’s a 100% guarantee that they are going to survive. He has a motivation, he literally said it out loud in front of them too.

[@Exel3nce]

he had plenty of other motivations and reasons and excuses, and then it was all "i am idiot lol", which is silly, doesnt make sense and just a punch to the face. @@patrickzantomaster

[@Vampireinarm1]

these are the kinds of discussions that having notes for would infinitely improve the conversation and fact accuracy

[@Exel3nce]

oh for sure, yeah, even tho it wouldnt really change the outcome of "its plain bad", but aside from that? yep

[@miguelnewmexico8641]

@@Exel3nce don't be a penis.

[@Reverse_Hood]

With pat and Woolie? Impossible

[@Vampireinarm1]

@@Reverse_Hood it's not a Pat and Woolie discussion if half the "facts" aren't made up on the spot to save face lmao

[@TheShockVox]

Also if both had experienced it. Let’s not forget Pat experienced the ending through Twitter I think and decided the story is thus bad and not worth continuing. Which is absolutely his right. But it does lead to his opinion having a giant asterisk.

[@LuxLoser]

Now for Pat, on time travel in AOT. No true changes to the timeline. Eren created his own Determinism. He only got the power to change time by becoming the kind of man who wouldn't change time. As you said, he needs to influence his dad to get his powers. He tries to change what he saw in the future, only to end up causing it, Greek tragedy style. It's not that he tried and tried and this was the best solution. It's that he tried to change things but couldn't, and while he suspected there was a way to change the future, he wasn't smart enough to figure it out, so he gave up on trying and just embraced his fate. There's a moment where he knows he's supposed to save a kid being attacked. He tries to just stand there and let it happen, but eventually he can't stop himself from leaping in to save the kid because he's not the kind of guy to walk away. But it was his hesitation that made the kid have the injuries that Eren saw in his vision of the future. If he had instead jumped in immediately, he might have changed things. Instead, in trying to stop it, he made it happen exactly as he forsaw it. At that point, he gives up trying. And so, he's already given up changing things by the time he gets the chance to save his mom. He needs to stop the Dina Titan from eating Berthold so Berthold can do all the important things he needs to do. Eren knows that doing this means the Dina Titan will wander over to his mom. He does it anyways, because he has given up changing anything and only looking at the big picture, and in doing so proves he's just trapped by his own time loop. Eren is a slave to fate in pursuit of freedom. BUT, Eren, and the people he influences, are the ones who are trapped. We have free will. But Eren created the loop for himself, but left his friends free to do as they please, and he had no idea how everything would totally end up after his death. Everyone else has agency, Eren doesn't, but at the same time he ironically robbed himself of his agency. Eren bears full responsibility for his actions, and even for the actions of the people he manipulated. But everyone else he kept free, especially in the final battle. It is not just a set of dominos, it is the world being oppressed by Eren and Ymir, and the rest of us fighting to break free of the loops they're making.

[@fenris5932]

Thank you for writing the comment I didn't have the effort to write because I know Pat will never see it nor care enough to change his opinion at all

[@willywitchdoctor]

God time travel stuff is so stupid

[@hondshoven8477]

"Eren created his own Determinism." That's my biggest problem with this entire thing, honestly. He didn't create shit because for said determinism to happen, he'd have to be *born* this way which empties any conversation on his character. Acting as if Eren trapped anyone when his entire existence is one big timeloop where future Eren molded past Eren to become ... Well, future Eren means those are not characters, free will in AoT doesn't exist, it's just a dude born the way he's born molding the entire freakin' world. Eren didn't grow to be a monster per the circumstances of his world, he was born a problem, it's the most Japanese conclusion to a story I've seen in a long while. Blaming or cheering any character for their actions in this world is like making a moral judgement on a lion hunting an antelope , it's freaking meaningless.

[@Kumo-s6f]

I gotta hand it to Isayama, it takes some kind of talent to construct a narrative as contentious as AoT. Everyone I've heard talk about the ending has near completely contrary opinions about what it actually means, and says a lot about their political and social beliefs. Eren truly is the Joker of anime, unironically, without an ounce of cap.

[@rhair7143]

This comment genuinely helps me understand this story and Eren far more than anything else I've seen. Thanks Feels like Eren had no clue what he was doing with the power he obtained no clear motivation or why apart from a vague freedom.

[@TheMightyNovac]

The whole point with Eren is that knowing the future also traps you to it. There's a fantasy that fans developed that Eren explicitly breaks at the end, where because he can see the future and influence past and future events, people believe that empowers him--but it's the complete opposite. Eren kills his mom because otherwise Berthold doesn't live long enough for the other events of the series to happen. He essentially caused his own turmoil the entire series in order to sacrifice his happiness in exchange for the lives of his friends. Eren can't stop human suffering, because human suffering, war, and violence are all inherent to human nature. So when you give just... Some guy the mantle of responsibility, it inevitably results in horrible decisions that inevitably harm some group, or prevent some underlying right or want--its why Historia's family erased the Eldians' memories and sequestered them to a death at the hands of the future Marleyan invasion. There was no right solution, the only difference that Eren made is in saving the lives of his friends, and ensuring that they could live a full life.

[@weewer3369]

As for whether or not Eren can change his future, I interpreted it like this: The starting point is such: EREN WANTS THE RUMBLING as he admits once or twice. But why does he want to the Rumbling? It's because his conception of FREEDOM is to take back birthrights he is denied. He wants a vast open world that was was promised to him by Armin, but really freedom to him is the concept of killing all the titans so that he can achieve that free world. I could flesh out this idea alot more but it'd take a lot of text, so just humor the idea for a sec. When Eren said he was disappointed, it was to Ramzi, someone who can't understand him or judge him. Why would he do this? If his disappointment was simply at the fact that the outside world was hostile, then it wouldn't be a shameful secret that only Ramzi (and later Armin) can know about. Hell, he has even seen a future where Yaegerists openly express that same ideology. The disappointment was that the freedom he wanted cannot exist because the outside world is NOT boundless, it just has more people and all the complicaton they entail. So to circle back to the question: EREN CAN STOP THE RUMBLING...but the situation gives Eren an excuse to achieve his two main goals -- saving his friends and more importantly, creating that vast nothingness that he fought so hard to earn when his conception of freedom was "Kill the titans who are denying me of my birthright world". And because of that, he knows that deep down inside he doesn't really WANT to remove himself from this path that leads to him getting almost everything he wants. He can selflessly, shamelessly, fulfill his inner desires while saving those he genuinely loves.

[@patrickzantomaster]

It makes more sense if he can’t stop the rumbling from happening. He wouldn’t apologise if he wasn’t forced to do it. He was just sad that he was going to do it because he couldn’t trust anyone else. Who would be the alternative he could trust?

[@gibmeaway100]

The TLDR being Erins concept of freedom hinges on making the kings lie that was made to keep them in the walls a reality to some extent

[@Exel3nce]

he cant. its a string of time that needs to happen

[@figgy6666]

Yo this convo was honestly so frustrating to witness live lmao. It was literally someone with 30% understanding of what they just watched try to explain it to someone who had 0% knowledge of what'd been going on outside of memes he's seen and assumptions based on that aforementioned 30% understanding. Kinda just an hour of confusion and takes based on bad info.

[@PippyToon]

And just like Eren, your dumbass still watched the whole story play out.

[@Epee2134]

One of my favorite parts about the Attack on Titan finale (manga-wise) was when Armin was talking to Eren's soul before he passed on, and how Eren was basically butt-hurt/malding over the thought that Mikasa might love another man after him, hoping that she'll love him forever--or at least, wait a very long time before loving someone else! "...That sounds kind of pathetic, isn't it?" "Uh, yeah, Eren, it KINDA IS."

[@Ask4This]

thats a private insecure moment between closet friends, eren did say the right thing to mikasa (telling her to move on from him) for what little that counts.

[@kapkant6197]

I still don't get why people hated that scene, maybe it was a little awkwardly phrased but it's consistent with how pathetic and emotional Eren always was. It feels like a ton of "sigma male literally me" types bought the bait and didn't get that Eren was fronting as a cool lone wolf badass like they do to cover up their own insecurities

[@plinfan6541]

​@@kapkant6197I think you answered your own question. People had build up the mental Image of Phylosopher King Gigachad Eren, so having him patheticly whining about the girl he ignored super hard mindbroke a lot of people.

[@iamnuff1992]

The most pathetic part of it is that he refused to acknowledge her for the entire fucking manga. If he wanted her to care about him, maybe he should have done something other than reject her at every turn.

[@Ultimaniacx4]

He wasn't talking to Eren's soul before he passed on. He was remembering the conversation they had while they were on the boat chasing the Rumbling. Eren came into their minds to talk to them and tell them what was going to happen, then erased their memories using the Founder's power and they remembered after he was dead and the power was gone.

[@attackofthecopyrightbots]

pat pulling that "I didnt watch it but" that woolie is known for

[@TheShockVox]

I’d say that’s more of a Patism. They both do it but movies, shows, etc Pat tends to experience through Twitter posts.

[@tylerlackey1175]

​@@TheShockVoxI agree unless pat is directly experiencing something on stream where he directly consumes media, all of his opinions and thoughts come from other peoples mouths

[@stefanoseppi9697]

Love or hate the ending to AOT, i hope we can all agree that Pat's approach to this conversation is the worst behavior you could possibly have towards a story. It's fine if you're not interested in finishing a series, no one is forcing you, but at least have the decency to not have such a strong opinion towards something you know nothing about. It's just bad and invalid criticism.

[@wielderofthetriforce1934]

It reminds me of that one Plague of Gripes video where the literal first line out of his mouth is “I don’t know much about Naruto” followed by 40 minutes of him just shitting all over it

[@notwhoyouthink1]

i hope it's not a mistake and the episode numbers actually start being part of the titles, it's always useful years down the line when i want to find an episode but don't want to look through every description.

[@shortsrus]

Also saying "the cycle repeats" isn't really accurate. The circumstances that lead to Ymir becoming the founding titan are extremely different to whoever we see at the end approaching the tree. We can probably assume things would be completely different if someone else besides Ymir interacted with it. The kid we see at the end seems to have grown up peacefully and isn't outside the walls running from titans or enemies, they're just exploring with their dog, freely.

[@ShimyIa1]

This is the worst version of the spoilercast possible. Woolie is approaching it too technically and literally, with half baked thoughts. Pat got fed spoilers out of context and had it ruined for him and proceeds to take an authoritative stance on it. Hoped at least Pat would finish it and would be able to discuss it properly. Such a shame. I was looking forward to this for years.

[@stefanoseppi9697]

This is absolutely Pat at his worst. I'll never understand why he does this to himself, especially with something he used to enjoy a lot. During the SBFP days I used to think he had a good critical mind, but in recent years he demonstrated to be quite the opposite.

[@greatskullz6166]

@@stefanoseppi9697 People with autism can't be critical.

[@TheShockVox]

Eh I’d say the ending is bitter sweet. The fact is there will always be conflict but light and life finds a way. It wasn’t for nothing, but it just also wasn’t permanent.

[@Zikk0_o]

But it was for nothing. The Titan/Parasite power still exists in the end waiting to restart the whole thing again with the kid going in the tree.

[@TheShockVox]

@@Zikk0_oI think it also comes down to how someone views things. War will happen. Conflict will happen. That doesn’t me stop trying to do what we can to prevent it. Why clean this room? It’s just going to get dirty again? Because that period where the room was clean is still better than when it is.

[@Zikk0_o]

@TheShockVox Yes, conflict will always happen. My issue isn't that. It's that they failed to get rid of the source of power that created the Titans.

[@LuxLoser]

Woolie, I would say that AOT doesn't assert that Eren killing *more* people = *more* peace. If anything, it says conflict is inevitable. If he'd killed everyone, Paradis would eventually fall into internal conflict probably just as fast. As Erwin says "Conflict will end when the human population falls to 1 or less." Meanwhile, after the Rumbling the timelapse implies CENTURIES of relative peace. They go from 1910s to the Cyberpunk future before another major conflict. And even after the nukes fall, there are survivors. Humanity endures, despite the suffering. And that's why we push on. And why we should push on. Just because there will always be war doesn't mean we shouldn't strive for peace. And we owe the generations to come to try, if only so one day, they can run up a hill or play catch. Maybe our grandchildren will die. But we must try to help them, to make the world better for them, for they have the birthright to live, to enjoy the world, however briefly. Tatakae.

[@invincibleloonie]

That’s probably the more apparent change from the manga, the buildings look futuristic so it seems more akin to hundreds of years where it’s likely some family names have died or changed rather than “dump this on some grandkids the cast might have known and loved”. Technically not a better fate for the world, but fitting to show the inevitability of it all and the small pleasantry this whole ordeal managed to get

[@turkish8969]

No it wouldnt have? What are they gonna do, bomb the same island they fucking LIVE on?

[@kapkant6197]

The Japanese lady even says to Floch and the Jaegerists "Even if you succeed all that will happen is the world will get a lot smaller and you won't have anywhere to run when you turn on each other"

[@cookiescure7160]

@@invincibleloonie Yeah, in the manga, other than the modern buildings, the tree growing larger is your only real sense of scale for the amount of time that has passed. And even then, the war panels are right after Mikasa's death, so it just feels like it might've happened semi-recently after her death. I'm glad they showed the larger passage of time.

[@willywitchdoctor]

You're looking at one country. You have no idea if conflicts are happening elsewhere.

[@RhysClark97]

This is a prime example of the combination of pat jumping to conclusions without watching something (which he does alot and is silly) and woolie being bad explaining core plotpoints that would clear things up (which to be fair, he really shouldnt have to), theirs a very specific set of scenes during the rumbling that shows off the two things Eren wanted more than anything in the world, the audience didn't know which Eren himself thought was more important, his own version of ultimate freedom (as in a world with a clean slate...or keeping those he found dearest to him alive and sacrificing that freedom, right until the final moments the answer to that question was not clear to the audience, meaning it wasn't just a set path or "watching dominos fall" as pat would put it, it was an ongoing conflict in Erens head throughout his entire life. This meant from an audience perspective, the story remained engaging and the scenes between Eren and Armin in the final episode were Eren trying his best to put into words MULTIPLE LIFETIMES WORTH OF FEELINGS AND THOUGHTS, something nobody is capable of doing. This is all very clear if you actually, you know, watch the show.

[@Velvetx4cove]

Somehow people still didn't get this even when the anime seem to have cleared it up a bit more. They're still expecting "chad sigma Eren" to be a different character than what they envisioned and see his "change" as something that doesn't make sense. In reality, Eren never changed into some badass with a plan and was a person who cared about the greater good. His was shown to be terrible at making good decisions and mainly was driven by his emotions. His personality type does not back him being the good guy at all in any way. Like you pointed out, Eren's head was a mess the entire time. There's on-going conflicts happening in there and we see his real personality and motivations in the end. That's something I really appreciated.

[@Exel3nce]

say what you want about him, but he himself didnt make any sense, just like the other characters. it was all terribly exectued with so much forced nonsense, shoehorned bs and nonseniscal character assassination. "me idiot" "me love mikasa wäh".

[@Exel3nce]

and how exactly does this make things any better?@@Velvetx4cove

[@RhysClark97]

@@Exel3nce a character being incoherent in their literal final moments before death and the plot being incoherent are not the same thing so i don't agree.

[@RhysClark97]

it might not FOR YOU, thats why opinions exist @@Exel3nce

[@Dreamfillah]

The events of the story are destined in the way that because of /who Eren is/, he'd not ever relent on wiping away humanity or give up on his dream on a vast, spacious earth all /his/ to explore. Not because timeywimey space-god shenanigans, but rather faults of his character. It's what he said to Reiner. "I think we were born like this." (I don't understand the point of having him arrange his own genesis story with Dina eating his mum, though. Maybe to emphasize how far gone he is, and just how much of a slave he is to his dreams of 'freedom'.)

[@maubpp]

That's what I got out of it. He's doomed to perpetuate this self-fulfilling prophecy because he can't let go. He always had a choice but his own flaws as a person are his downfall. He literally admits he wanted to see the world burn. This was the only way things could turn out because his heart is full of rage and violence

[@music79075]

​@@maubppexactly what I got too. He is an idiot that never changed nor would want to change. He perpetuates his own hell.

[@kapkant6197]

Eren is a "gotta kill all the monsters" fantasy protagonist who got put into a World War 1 style world where his morality cannot work

[@maubpp]

​@@kapkant6197what do you mean I can't just kill the bad guy???

[@Velvetx4cove]

​@@maubpp "Then Imma make EVERYONE THE BAD GUY!!"

[@Known_Liar]

This conversation would be 50% better if half the people talking actually watched it.

[@SIXminWHISTLE]

Pat not having watched/read the ending makes this conversion very frustrating.

[@trickster721]

When the manga ended, I remember Pat going on and on about how it takes a crazy heel turn at the last moment, basically calling the author a crypto-fascist, and I was really fascinated and curious to see the ending because I respect his critical opinions. Turns out he was just parroting some shallow outrage meme he saw on Twitter about a single line of dialog taken out of context. Lame.

[@SwobyJ]

@@trickster721 Pat? Parroting? Noooooo

[@hassanico9999]

@@trickster721 Anytime anyone says that about AoT my brain shuts down because I cannot comprehend the sheer goddamn STUPIDITY within them other than permanently online American politics brain rot.

[@Terramagu]

@@trickster721 "No, no, I think the plot synopsis I got completely divorced from context from a wiki article edited by a guy named Stormlord88 is totally on point and not at all misleading. It's fine because I saw one panel where somebody said something fucked up and I chose not to look at their face to see that they were drawn pathetically, which means it was unironic!"

[@vulpinepanther2001]

Thank for the warning, I haven't watched the podcast or this segment yet, so I might skip this one entirely.

[@FiveTiger]

Good, I was worried it might take a long time to get more CSB coverage of Attack on Titan. Something like 10 years or so, just to put a number on it.

[@pleasedontsue]

10 years, at least!

[@technomorph6798]

I honestly don’t understand people being upset about the fact that conflict still exists after everything that happened. It’s still a happy ending CONSIDERING the cards they were dealt. Titans are gone. Erin is gone. And for the characters we personally know and love they get to have some form of peace for their time. Of course after even just one hundred years or more those stories and people become history, the concepts twisted, and new people and ideals are born, and so eventually conflict is reshaped as well. It was basically just showing the part of the story that most stories don’t show, what happens after the final screen goes black with everyone living “happily ever after”. They all get old and die. Then new people take their place. The world moves on, as it always does, and nothing any of those characters could have done would have been able to prevent that EXCEPT if Eren won. Which is a shame, but it’s real, and I personally enjoy that.

[@Coletrain9001]

*Spoiler Discussion* I think some of the angles that show the real takeaways of the finale to me are Zeke's final thoughts of wishing he'd enjoyed his life and Armin and Zeke's discussion of the little things in life. Edit: Also, the "everything was fate" and "everything I tried nothing changed" bits are in different contexts, for Eren's time bullshit, he can influence eldians only, and he chose not to influence anyone after he got his "freedom" and lets others keep their freedom. The everything he tried and nothing changed was him describing the visions he got always coming true no matter he did before he got the founder

[@maubpp]

That conversation, Erwin's final speech, and the episode Children of the Forest are what I think is the story's ultimate thesis. Even when all seems hopeless, we have to cherish life and try to avoid conflict as much as we can. Otherwise, why go on?

[@fenris5932]

My takeaway from the Armin Zeke conversation is that even if every major event in your life is punctuated by tragedy, the little moments of peace surrounded by people you love can make the whole thing worth it and that's a message I can really get behind

[@CaesarCallaway]

Pat's does not understand that the story is adout determinism. There is theories that if we could measure every action and force in the universe we could accurately map out every event past, future, and present simultaneously. He's missing the forest through the trees on the fact that it's a force closed loop Erin made the decisions all at once with incomplete information. The whole point of the entire story after Aaron touches Zeke's head is that he's no longer in control. we still do see an ark for the characters in when he talks with Armin where he breaks down when he gets just a little bit of push back on his massive failure.

[@weirdo3116]

From what I've heard, people either loved this ending or they hated it

[@14s0cc3r14]

Most were okay with it. A very vocal group wants it to be hated as much as Game of Thrones, and the fact that it isn’t just makes them angrier

[@nahuel3433]

Eh. I'm lukewarm about it. But then again I'm lukewarm on the entire series.

[@weecho8668]

I just read the ending in the manga and thought it was ok. Did the anime change anything?

[@cjjolly7326]

​@@weecho8668pretty much the same ending they just made it better. Less weird out of character stuff from armin and eren explains himself better

[@willywitchdoctor]

Yeah it was pretty ass. Had some nice emotional scenes but the actual logic and intent behind each scene was terrible

[@Kumo-s6f]

As wrong as Pat usually is, likening AoT to a Greek tragedy is pretty spot on. Greek tragedies have really mixed messages about the ethics of power and violence, and AoT is nothing but that. In the same vein that there's no such thing as a truly anti-war movie, it's hard to depict a demigod being the architect of destruction without making him look at least a little cool in the process.

[@NeutralGuyDoubleZero]

*spoiler obvs* I reject this notion that it was a hopeless cynical feeling ending. A lot of the characters we liked got to have long natural lives in a world without titans. Sounds like a decent conclusion considering everything. Armin and the gang were never EVER going to eradicate all war from humanity. It makes complete sense given everything told in the story and what human nature is. The world is a truly cruel place. But those small moments with the people you love, are absolutely priceless.

[@Ultimaniacx4]

It's like watching the end of Gurren Lagann and saying "Well a spiral race is eventually going to evolve out of control and destroy the universe so none of it mattered."

[@nicolaschaves7758]

Rip Basementcast

[@GalicayCancer]

Woolie IS a damn hero, and none of you better ever forget it!

[@lemeres2478]

I think I can understand why Erin had to change time to kill his mom. It goes back to the classic time traveler problem: "What happens if you kill baby hitler?" So, you go back and "solve a problem". However, that doesn't stop germany from being pissed off about WWI reparations. So a new fuhrer from rising up- and this time, it is one smart enough to avoid pissing off Russia and they actually managed to get nukes. War drags on, and it eventually becomes a full on nuclear war. So you go back and try to solve WWI as well. But that isn't as simple as saving archduke franz ferdinand. WWI was a sticky web of colonial power struggles, which in turn come from medieval power struggles. At some point, you find yourself going back and spreading plagues amongst the native americans (so that they are inoculated against european peasant stink lines, and their population has recovered enough to fight off colonists). Meanwhile, you are instilling Demon Lord Caear as emperor of the Neo Roman Empire. The Demon Lord delegates his realm to the rule of his Four Heavenly Kings that rule the four parts of the empire with iron fists. They spend most of their time making sure the christians never form aa catholic church. At that point, you realize you are a goddamn idiot, and you decide to save baby hitler from yourself, and do everything you can to make sure he fails art school. In the case of AoT, Erin probably TRIED to save his mom, but then he realized it was just self satisfaction and it caused more problems than it solved. So he just decided to put it back to how it was.

[@music79075]

27:54 only Erens life is fated and they are fated becauze of an unknown prime timeline when he first gained the powers. EDIT: Everyone had free will its just that the will of everyone at that point on history would keep resulting in that result because the only one aware of it is Eren and he only gains 4d awareness right as the holocoaster begins to plummet down the hill EDIT 2: Imagine if in Final Destination, the MC gains that future sight right as the plane lifts off the ground. EDIT 3: Ymir became a titan to escape harm and the paths to escape death. The kid at the end is just on a trip. If he does contact the source of all life, that doesn't necessarily guarantee the same powerset.

[@HarrisBoe]

The whole thing about Eren’s (in)ability to mess with time harkens back to the old question of “if you are able to see the future, does free will exist?” We don’t have an answer for that, and I feel like a lot of people were looking for the show to give some sort of definitive answer when one cannot be given. Because paradoxically, the answer is yes and no. We may choose our actions, but those actions are also predetermined and cannot be changed. Eren chose to eliminate 80% of humanity but at the same time had no choice.

[@Zikk0_o]

Yes, because you are free to choose the outcome you want instead of what would happen. If time and any future event were a bubble, Eren would exist outside that bubble, able to manipulate it how he sees fit. The problem with Eren is that there is no explanation for why he has to continue following said path. He does not even attempt to do anything different. There is no reason as to why he's bound to only follow a predetermined path.

[@weewer3369]

What I will add to the conversation Woolz is that if Eren completed the Rumbling, peace wouldn't have lasted long. Eldeans are shown to be pretty cynical and spiteful as is, even Floch sorta admits in his conversation with Lady Hisu that he also suspects they will start new conflicts within themselves. It's a bummer story, but I also think it makes it pretty clear that Eren's freedom would have also been fleeting.

[@iamnuff1992]

Humans will always have conflicts, but there's a difference between regular human factionalism and the rabid deranged hatred that the outsiders had for the Eldeans. Calling them demons and having even children say that they all needed to be wiped out.

[@lachlandouglas9040]

The series kinda lays that out already. There's a moment where Keith Shadis encourages new recruits to infiltrate the Jaegerists and bide their time until they're ready to strike. Even if the Rumbling was 100% successful, Eldia would just be embroiled in a civil war between Jaegarists and Anti-Jaragerists.

[@lweaver2988]

That's still the difference between setting the next generation up for success, and guaranteeing that the survivors are going to retaliate against their children.

[@weewer3369]

@@NocturneJester I do disagree with this all the way because he simply would not care. He doesn't ACTUALLY care that much about Eldian freedom to rule in that way, he doesn't want a leadership role. Plus that would go against his radical freedom views, right? He would be like post-basement Erwin where after reaching his dream, he would hollow out more-or-less imo

[@jsh020]

The yeagerists pretty definitively were portrayed as being oppressive to even their own people so it absolutely would of been fleeting at best, they probably had more peace simply cause they still had people outside the island to be angry at rather than exclusively aiming at their own population.

[@TheMightyNovac]

Gonna be real, guys. I don't think there's any room for confusion as to why the attack titan cannot help but eradicate 80% of the population of the planet. That's kinda like... The entirety of his thing. I all seriousness though, I feel like people calling Eren an idiot forget that he's basically possessed by the spirit of a rage-fueled baby. Like, he's just like that, and has been the entire time. I can't believe that people think it's out-of-character for that guy to have been actually fucking stupid the whole time.

[@samuelw6529]

For some reason it makes me so happy that Woolie's been stealth loving AoT in the shadows all these years. After Pat got the ending spoiled I kinda worried Woolie might have dropped off too since he was radio silent on the show after the basementcast. Also it's kinda disappointing how cynical of a takeaway he got from the ending since I'd say the show pretty firmly believes that had the rumbling succeeded and the alliance been killed, Paradis would've fallen to infighting.

[@__________8997]

@@NocturneJesteryou missed OP’s point and the initial impetus of the show of Eren’s motivation being to wipe out all Titans to be free so that they/Eldians aren’t constrained, so him utilizing the Founder’s power would be the same thing as before if rumbling the whole world over to then enacting totalitarian control again, and that it’s human nature to have conflict with Paradis already getting tribal with Eren’s followers as the seeds of new conflict which is ultimately pointless as conflict would arise again one way or another Eren did it all for momentary peace and freedom for his people, and within the show theme wise that life is momentary, tragic, and cruel, yet worth the moments of bliss and connection with one another as it’s truly wonderful

[@Exel3nce]

thats not the point tho. it doesnt matter if fighting continoues or not. that is not the core of what was done badly

[@samuelw6529]

@@Exel3nce i like how this comment didn't actually contribute anything to the conversation

[@Exel3nce]

and yet it makes total sense@@samuelw6529

[@malum9478]

@@samuelw6529 you not liking what someone said does not make it not contributing.

[@shortsrus]

It's not that Anime Hitler had to do it. It's that he wanted to do it

[@Maxisamo1]

This discussion was kinda frustrating because Pat kept making a million assumptions without having even watched the ending, and Woolie was super scatterbrained trying to explain it

[@KINGofGUNS]

I really liked the ending, but i don't hold it against those that didn't.

[@GodKingReiss]

The thing about people who dislike the ending is that you can’t always immediately distinguish the “What was that shit with Ymir and the king about? And why is Armin thanking him for genocide?” haters from the “WHY DIDNT EREN KILL EVERYONE AND GO HOME TO HIS TRADWIFE HISTORIA AND THEIR BABY” haters because one is infinitely more valid than the other.

[@JamboloMebedir]

​@GodKingReiss I remember I used to go to Titanfolk on reddit for hype discussion and was so disappointed that the whole subreddit seemed to disappear into that second group of people. There wasn't room for any nuanced discussion, everyone just had angry opinions about it.

[@brentramsten249]

just came back and i very much got the opposite impression from the show. "murdering 80% of humanity was the best outcome i could achieve" was almost explicitly what eren said. his lack of freedom being a result of having only bad options to choose from. like if he saved his mother, armin would irreversibly death locked because the guy with the titan powers wouldnt be there. also erens time powers only apply to specifically titans without autonomy and to a much more limited extent eldians. im not even sure he can influence himself before he was injected...

[@brentramsten249]

also: the reason the founder stopped was because mikasa found the will to kill what she loved more than her own life. tonally and thematically to have this be what stops the rumbling strongly contrasts with any (theoretical) a unchangeable destiny narrative. really if i had to choose not just a core message but a general narrative theme is the struggling against the most basic body compellations (physical and mental) versus those things in life we have chosen to cherish. it remains strong right up to and past the climax from the beginning of the series

[@Dan-Ky-Kang]

I can respect their opinions, and I am aware that I can't change it, but that doesn't mean I can't rebuttal it, especially since these opinions have been made public and can influence others. Woolie, I get that you're an altruist but Eren can't change the nature of humans or life. Even at the end of an optimistic anime like Gurren Lagann, war shit is still going on or WILL go on. Point being, the existence of everlasting peace is not a reality writers see as a pragmatic resolution/satifsying ending that involves around a hot topic like conflict and war. If you look at the ending, peace lasted quite a while, to the point where we don't even know what exactly happened during the bombings. That event could not necessarily be the reprisal of war, that could just be another random human apocalypse war. So, if we can argue that the ending Is not absolutely nihilistic - Woolie, your question of "tatakae... but why???" Already gets answered with the conversation between Zeke and Armin. The answer is really simple, actually. In fact, it's Isayama's whole thesis, just right there. Why do we go on? "Because I was born into this world and I still have an attachment to it's beauty, and so we must try, even if the end doesnt justify the effort" And Pat, predestination doesn't get rid of agency. The "same outcome" that Eren keeps referring to, might not at all actually be the "same", but he says so because perhaps it's all bad choices *in his opinion*, anyways. The outcome - had Mikasa, Armin and the others chosen differently than what they did - might've rendered them dead, thus Eren's international hero plan would've been null. Either way, Eren foresaw all of it. Eren is a slave to fate, but not the others. They can still have choice. Just because a meteor comes crashing, do we stop trying? Well yes, because we die. But should we? Armin and the others say "no".

[@leeohx7174]

To answer the time travel question, Eren did it the way he did because if all actions brought them to the same place, then he wouldn't care about how he had to do things. He's not stupid he just had depression because none of his choices mattered.

[@LilAnonomus]

They even keep bringing up his stubbornness, dumbness and "TATEKAI" deal. It seems pretty easy to me to piece together that even when the end is predetermined doom then he'd still rather go down fighting than doing nothing.

[@chrisdaughen5257]

I think you're a bit too harsh on the ending sequence. It was demonstrating how the world moves on (for better or worse) even after something as devastating as the Rumbling. You could argue it's even a little better without Titans to cause a massive imbalance. At the very least, Armin and friends were able to ensure peace for a few centuries.

[@SamuelPulkkinen-jp8ev]

I don't know about that "few centuries peace". Clearly according to the time lapse that part of Paradis didn't get leveled, but who knows what happened across the shores or in other sections of the island. Of course I don't WANT the effort of our heroes not be worth of even a century or two of peace, but I do value the possibility that they may have failed even for their lifetime, that's kinda the point.

[@Exel3nce]

the ending ending sequence is fine, but not how we got to it

[@Bessux]

Just tell Pat that Eren created his own fucking destiny, Woolie, since he's never gonna watch it anyway. It's not fate, it's Eren.

[@tyo9954]

I think it definitely was NOT a “it was all for nothing” ending. Like Zeke and Amrin talked about life isn’t about the multiplicity of itself but the little things that we enjoy. Remember, before everything got blown up we literally see everyone live their life to the fullest and humanity having at least 1,999 years of relative peace.

[@TaisonSphereNo.4]

How do y’all survive pat constantly sucking the fun out of everything?

[@newengland707]

In this household we put his rants in the Orb Drawer, and we only open it back up to place the next rant.

[@Morose_Melon]

We ignore him and watch more of Woolie's content than Pat's

[@miguelnewmexico8641]

Pat's tolerable, and even good at it most of the time. it's the viewers who ramp it up from his 11 to a 20 and just say things.

[@hassanico9999]

Well first I blocked him on Twitter.

[@MangekyouUchiha]

I skip a few seconds when I hear his voice. Someone who stopped watching the anime and is only fed information through twitter friends and wiki pages then tries to have a discussion based on that doesn't make for a good listening experience.

[@fullmetalbleachnote]

"Its not a story it's just a sequence of events" ???????????????

[@trenchcoatjoe1891]

A key thing to remember is that Eren never said anything about ending conflict or bridging peace. He said he was going to exterminate all the Titans and protect his friends, and he took the only path that led to those outcomes.

[@timlerch7425]

This was the least Pat has ever made sense. "None of the characters got to make any other decisions. It's just a sequence of events." Welcome to author's writing stories, bro??

[@amandaclark-tutsch1677]

There's one little moment between Erwin and Pixis before they go to try and rescue Eren from the cave that summarizes the ending pretty succinctly and kind of serves as a thesis - "People will not stop fighting each other until the human population is down to one or less." Yes, the Rumbling did not stop the war, it leveled the playing field for the people of Paradis, but it's probably a more truthful end with the nuking of Paradis because unfortunately, conflict doesn't end because we really want it to. It takes effort from literally everyone, and even then it's not a guarantee. It's just not a "satisfying ending" the way we're used to in most media because the problem didn't stop. But that's the thing - the problem rarely stops in the real world, there's just new justifications and people in charge who want to perpetuate it for personal or perceived collective gains. I don't think there could have been any other way to end it for Eren and the anime did help elucidate some things that were not as readily apparent in the manga, but I thought the ending was appropriate for what Isayama was setting out to do from the beginning, and what Hange told Armin before making him commander - the unyielding desire for a broader understanding. The Rumbling happened because of that failure, and it was stopped because of that achievement.

[@_Sage967_]

it's like the ending of watchmen. nobody really wins, justice doesn't prevail and the world is coaxed into such an extreme lie that the truth WOULD probably cause large-scale conflict all while an entity no less then god himself sits and signs off on all of it

[@_Sage967_]

@@NocturneJester when you think about it, "MS Gundam: Char's Counterattack" kinda hit this point but instead focused/finished on the positive aspect of this mindset with having a literal miracle manifest from the united will of humanity. did war stop? FUCK NO, but they displayed the potential of humanity when united in a common cause also, it doesn't really make Eren a moron because we have to remember the greater context of everyone being stuck in a cycle. Eren did this to promote peace by being the big bad yes but also to save his friends

[@amandaclark-tutsch1677]

@@NocturneJester But that’s been the thesis the whole time? Not every story is hopeful or “the best” ending. Also, have you seen the world lately? Nihilism seems to be the governing principle of the world currently. Like, most human life is pointless from an importance standpoint. As humans we CREATE meaning since most other animals don’t have the capacity for pontificating as we do. Meaning is what you create. Ants and cats and birds and such don’t live life focusing on nihilism and the meaning of their lives. We exist, we live, and we die. What we do with our existence is what creates that meaning, but meaning is not naturally inherent in being alive. Whether people choose to do something with that is on them, and that’s why Hange and Levi were questioning near the end if the Rumbling was the outcome they would have wanted out if the sacrifices of their lives. Just because it’s not a happy kumbaya ending doesn’t mean it’s nihilistic. If anything, one of the other themes of the story is how fucking stupid, wasteful, and pointless WAR is, and how only though understanding and connection can we at least attempt to circumvent that nihilism. Unfortunately, people are people and conflict is an inevitability when in a society and have differing views. War isn’t necessarily inevitable unless it’s chosen, and unfortunately there are enough people that see it as acceptable because of their nihilism and inability for empathy, compassion, and human dignity. The Rumbling and the ending is meant to demonstrate that if we don’t reach that understanding and cooperate then yes, shit is pointless. That’s why the nuking didn’t happen until after everyone passed away decades later. Look at world history as well and see all the lessons we refused to learn and keep repeating even now. We’re in nihilistic times and we need to have the reflection to look at and understand that it leads nothing to the destruction of everything. Just because it’s nihilistic doesn’t mean it’s bad. It’s unfortunately a prescient reflection of current times.

[@TheSpiritus0]

Eren was both in control and out of it. He could influence the past and future but the timeline was set. I think I remember he laments about the fact that he's a slave to the timeline. It's like interstellar where Matt got the ability to influence the timeline but it turned he was always going to. He didn't necessarily "change" anything.

[@TheInvincibleGuch]

/\ This right here! Also Ymir had some sort of manipulation I think, but she seemed to have like zero little intellect due to her upbringing.

[@wumbojet]

I find this kind of causality in media deeply boring because we functionally watched literally nothing happening

[@kapkant6197]

​@@wumbojetI mean, technically every story is preordained. One character having knowledge (which he barely shares) doesn't change anything as a viewer or reader in my eyes

[@kapkant6197]

The way I look at it is, Eren (who is absolutely a monster and got what was coming to him) sacrificed his freedom so everyone else kept theirs. Him knowing everything he'd ever do or would happen to him, robbing him of his own freedom, ensured his friends would live and keep their ability to choose for themselves.

[@14s0cc3r14]

@@wumbojetIt’s more so the old saying “you can do what you will, but you can’t will what you will.” Eren did what he wanted, he was a slave to his desires just like everyone else. He just couldn’t change his desires.

[@hail2theprince93]

If the WoolieVS Mass Effect trilogy LP taught me anything, it's that Woolie is maybe not the best at interpreting events playing out or picking up on crucial details, which then causes him to misunderstand and misinterpret even more. I'd love to hear Pat's opinion having seen it all himself rather than basing his opinion off of second-hand internet discourse and hearing a summary put through the "Woolie filter".

[@resonance3460]

I feel that it's not that Eren was unable to change the future, but that he wouldn't even if he could

[@jakublicak1804]

Yeah I got that impression from him when after he wondered why the things are this way he said "No, I wanted to see this sight". That line kinda implicated that the result is this way not because he can't change fate, he wasted to events to turn out this way, willing to even sacrifice his mother for it

[@Secret_Takodachi]

Thanks Eren! You had the courage to do what a billion cucks couldn't! 🤣

[@patrickzantomaster]

No, eren knew that THE RUMBLING was going to happen. It has to happen, but the outcome of the rumbling is undetermined, Eren could’ve stopped halfway, a quarter into it, but that would’ve made it so the rest of the world was going to attack paradise. If he didn’t do it, the universe would’ve created an outcome in which it did, because some events as set in stone for them to happen. Grisha had to get the founders power, Berthold had to survive the first attack on the wall etc,

[@SamuelPulkkinen-jp8ev]

@@jakublicak1804 wasn't that answer more about his motivations, not his capabilities? Like he said that in response to Armin's "and you did this for us?", while the lad was having a breakdown about everything being impossible to undo. Eren said with quite conviction he tried to change things but it's a bit of a plot contrivance because we don't really see how much he tried. The only one was the kid getting beaten and it didn't seem implied his free will was taken for that or anything, though he commented "I guess the future really can't be changed" after the act. So what, was it just his own values/conscience that couldn't allow the beating to go on? Seems a tad contrived. Anyway AoT seems to function in the Bootstrap Paradox of a time loop. Even if he has the capability and just not the will to change things, it seems to be so because of the way Eren influenced his own past, because of how he influenced his own past, because of how he influenced his own past... There is no real starting point so anything else is impossible. Eren with the Founding Titan had the power to undermine past-Eren's will and groom himself to end up where he ended up.

[@jakublicak1804]

@@SamuelPulkkinen-jp8ev I guess, but my point is that in a way it's not entirely "fated to happen" it is fated but only because Founding Titan Eren decided it so, Eren before that cannot alter the events but because of the personality and motivations of the "final Eren" so in a way Eren has no control over the past but the "final" Eren has all the control, so if he ACTUALLY wished for things to turn out differently he could have influenced the past to turn out that way like he did with Dina

[@figuures6098]

Eren's main emotional goal since seeing his mom get eaten has been to destroy all titans. In order to destroy all titans, he had to become all titans, both past and future, and in order to do so, make his mom get eaten. I believe he rationalized killing everyone across the sea somewhat, but moreso used that as an excuse to rally the world against him to lead to his (and subsequently all titans') eradication, as it was the only future he saw in which his friends were free from the titan curse. If the anime ending with the kid and his dog going into the tree is hinting that the cycle restarts and titans weren't permanently eradicated tho, that kinda fucks it

[@ThatSamoanGuy]

Correction: His main emotional goal has been to destroy his ENEMY. Its just that that term changed in definition as the show went on. First it was Titans, then it was Marleyans, then it was the world.

[@neloverg3774]

you're being overly generous with a very shitty ending

[@__________8997]

@@ThatSamoanGuyyup, straight up said the same but less distilled lol Not sure why people don’t get that and how Eren realizes the goalposts of his ambition have changed yet again when pointing out at the ocean while being utterly destroyed internally again before ultimate nihilism thar’s teetering on hope for his friends to carry on after with his hazy omniscience

[@jaideay3003]

Kinda hard to see the future of a completely separate set of paths. Maybe titans aren't even titans the next time around. Could be fucking anything. I feel like there are no rules except the ones the founder makes. Ymir was fucked up. Those kids were happy. Maybe a happy founder makes a peaceful future.

[@slowlight9459]

the future will be different because the kid that goes into the tree at the end has the power of DOG

[@АлександрПушкин-я4щ]

Reminder: if you kill your enemies- they win

[@music79075]

This story would be a lot different if Truderen were in charge. A lot worse for everyone involved

[@diegomedina9637]

*Meanwhile Giorno* I dunno I just punch him hard.

[@throwaway5012]

Weird aside - Finishing the AOT manga, for me anyway, left me with the same feeling when I finished 'I am a Hero' and 'Beastars'. The authors had so many interesting and compelling themes, but they lacked the ability to weave them into a cohesive narrative with a satisfying conclusion. All three had some really interesting premises that capture the imagination. But its impossible to tell at what point they 'lost the plot'. The reason I bring up these three specifically, is that all embody that uncomfortable feeling of "Oh, is the author really going *there*?" - Ala David Cage doing Detroit Become Human. And the answer to the question is: "No no... maybe?... nahhh. ...But kinda?"

[@SamuelPulkkinen-jp8ev]

Just based on the first of the two final special episodes and with the knowledge of the discord around the ending I could see where it might go wrong. There just didn't seem to be a really clear road to take, for instance I pointed out to even friends how our heroes wanted to stop Eren without killing to an insane degree, but that would undermine all the lives he took. Eren could not be allowed to live, that would be incredibly tonally deaf of Isayama. But then Eren dying would mean a failure for our heroes, the characters we are most invested in and I couldn't see a genuinely happy future for them with that, especially for Mikasa. At least the worst possible outcome was avoided, which I dreaded: "Hey, we got time travel in the plot now. Lets just turn back the clock and make everything o~okay and the Rumbling never happened!

[@Exel3nce]

its truly difficult to make a satisfying ending, especially if you content before was so incredibly smart and rewarding, which makes one think" oh he cant do any wrong. he will make this end sit with ease" and here we are, another got like. not that hard but still. oh, a shame about beastars and i am a hero. beastars especially looked very promising

[@Exel3nce]

deffintly. the time stuff was actually handled with fun and good plot points. @@SamuelPulkkinen-jp8ev

[@frankie-leighcollins7291]

The ending to Beastars felt so rushed and unsatisfying that I regularly forget that it's finished despite having read it. My brain just doesn't register that it ended because the ending has no substance to it, which is a shame because the first 2/3rds of it were pretty good

[@santokun5835]

12:29, ww1 was known as the “the war to end all wars”. Then, we got ww2, the most devastating in planet earth. Yet, conflict exists and will continue to do so. That is part of human nature as much as the desperate hope to fight for a better future. I don’t think you guys really understood the essence of AoT. Please rewatch the finale or at least zeke Armin convo. Even if conflict continues, we can still find our freedom in the little things that we do & the fight that we engage in for a better tomorrow. That was the entire point of the end credits. And it doesn’t matter whether Eren did 100% or 80% of the rumbling, conflict will continue until a single or less human exists. Erwin said this back in s3 Also, Mikasa is mourning her lost love just like Armin did about his friendship with Eren. The scarf represents that connection. She literally killed him to stop the suffering but refuses to forget about him cause that’s her way of honouring her love. It’s a callback to s1 when Eren was supposedly dead.

[@music79075]

Floch: Eren did nothing wrong Eren: I'm a fucking mistake

[@Velvetx4cove]

Eren: I am *_EVERYTHING_* wrong

[@Maxisamo1]

The simplest way to explain the time stuff is that the key moments that require each other to reach the end happen because Eren himself cannot change as a person He fundamentally stays the same person, and as such, creates the only path that would make sense for someone of his wants, desires, instincts, and general personality He is brash, impulsive, stubborn, and destructive He only begins to regret his plans when Sasha dies, because her death wasn't shown to be a necessity for things to go the way they did from his perspective He only thought about himself and what HE wants. The only consideration for others was by allowing everyone else to make decisions on their own and not use Ymir's powers to force them

[@MegaPieru3000]

For some reason I was under the impression that Woolie had read the manga back in 2021 when the final chapter came out. Glad I never spoiled anything to him accidentally lol. Anyway, despite people loving to hate the series, I'm glad that Woolie liked it. I'm a big fan of the manga, I've read it twice, and although I haven't watched the whole anime adaptation (I watched 2 seasons) I have no doubt that they did a good job. Pat hasn't read or watched it so it was funny how confused he was about the time travel lol.

[@williamakaholla]

I would check the anime out now. They did clean up the final convo

[@Exel3nce]

can you blame the people tho? if you see someting you love very dearly, get butchered like a pig, you think people will praise you? the writing in s1-3 and some of 4 and beyond great. its subtle , its smart, its careful. this on the other hand is the complete opposite. and not only that, it also ruined everything that was before. you can love/like it, sure, but is it good? oh no, not even close

[@Slipstreamzzz]

​@@Exel3nceThat's ridiculous, it wasn't butchered like a pig you just don't care for it. And if I eat a burger, and at the tail end of the burger there were some charred bits, but i liked the burger as a whole, it's still a good burger, just not a perfect burger. This absolutism in that a show has to match quality to your expectations completely 100% of the way through otherwise it's not good is kinda wild to me

[@Exel3nce]

@@Slipstreamzzz I don't care for it? Me, who has seen the show 4 times and consideres it one of the best up until s4? Yes, aha. The ending can ruin it all and it actually did. Its not just some small charred bit, its a whole uncooked layer. It's good awful and it hurts

[@TheShockVox]

@@Exel3ncenot everyone sees it as a butchering. You gotta accept that.

[@althesilly]

In a tragedy especially a Greek ancient tragedy, it is a paramount importance that the main character big given opportunity to avoid the tragic outcome. Tragedy is a story where the main character always chooses to go right at a crossroads. All they have to do is go left to avoid. It sounds like attack on Titan doesn’t do this.

[@Terramagu]

That's the exact thing the ending portrays. Eren could have chosen to go left at any point, but he couldn't, because he was broken. Despite yearning for freedom the entire series, he was a slave to his nature. In his own words, he was just "a garden-variety idiot who obtained power".

[@Exel3nce]

oh you silly eren, we can all be idiots sometimes. no worry, its cool. @@Terramagu

[@isaackane4931]

AoT has a lot of themes I think are really neat in stories. Not really, "Cycles of violence baaad," but the extremes of retribution, righteous fury resulting in overwhelming violence. And just the ideas of "Freedom though..." as something characters strive for. Be it physical or more esoteric forms of it. It seems like one of those many series that really just fails to stick the landing just right. Resulting in a lot of divisivness. Really, I think a big issue with the series was how it was more or less dependent on, "oooooo isn't that mysterious? What does it meeaaaann..." I loathe the term Mystery Box now, but that's more or less what it was. What are the Titans? Who are these sentient Titans? What's the conspiracy with the government? Wait, we're at war with this other nation? Who the fuck's Ymir? Will Mikasa get that psycho D? It had to keep pushing more and more, getting bigger reveals, to the point that after it's all said and done, there's obvious going to be problems people take with it. And many are going to be left unsatisfied.

[@Exel3nce]

the mystery box was done perfectly in aot. a+ on the execution on that one. which makes it even weirder that s1 who can make mysteries land with such satisfaction, can also do such an ending. did he hire ryan johnson or what?

[@dtox5559]

Absolutely loved this show, masterpiece of an anime for me personally.

[@tylerkarnes2947]

Man I haven’t watched the show but either they really changed how AoT portrays it’s last 10-20 chapters or Woolie is being REAL generous. Because Eren’s actions logically make no sense but the world AROUND him acts as if he was some profound philosopher who left the world in the hands of Armin and Mikasa and the other main cast. In the end Erwin died for nothing.

[@NeutralGuyDoubleZero]

Erens control and perception over time is heavily implied to be very distorted and limited. He sees events simultaneously, and it's never a complete flow. Eren saw a world where 20% of the population and most of his friends survive with titans eradicated, and tried to push events to where that could happen. IE, if Dina eats Bertholdt then Armin can't get it so events turn out worse in that way.

[@weakestlink9159]

Whether or not the very conclusion of the story could have been avoided if the characters made different choices is irrelevant to me. They all made choices that were within their character to make, and that makes for compelling television. That's why people were pissed off at Game of Thrones, the writers jammed two bottles of stupid pills down every characters throat.

[@ninnoofthelastunicorn]

There's a reason why Erin is called a slave to Freedom, while Luffy embodies it. This amazing how much This ending waa next to the current story lines in One Piece and it's helping people understand what's happening in each other

[@jefferybrown6473]

21:05 Eren does say he's a slave to freedom, so sad funny.

[@Shroud66]

Wools can't catch a break 😂. He went from genophages in Mass Effect to genocides in FF16 followed by segregation in Avatar and now rumblings in Attack on Titan.

[@Ultimaniacx4]

He has his own cynicism and racism to blame.

[@TrevorZero]

*dunkey voice “tha bird is Eren Yeager”

[@GoodAkuma666]

Ellen becomes dove (crying)

[@Tolucasiren]

Honestly knowing the ending when the manga came out made me a lot more accepting of it, by the time the anime ver dropping. I still think it is a fumbled ending imo, not as egregious as game of thrones by any means just disappointing. It kinda felt like eren watched code geass and pulled a mid/not as good version of zero requiem (ik they’re very different but it’s the vibe I get 😂) still though show is a 9/10 up to that point so 8/10 for the fumble

[@williamakaholla]

I still gave it a 9 since I knew anything after the walls fell wouldnt be satisfying. It couldn't be

[@lweaver2988]

@@williamakaholla I'd have given the ending with Erin marching off to start the rumbling a 9.

[@Exel3nce]

s1-3 and parts of 4 are easily a 9 if not higher, everything after that and the ending? 5 max. it hurts too much if writing doesnt make any sense anymore

[@Peannlui]

Pat: 'Can (Eren) change things in the past?' Spoilers, because I read the manga and this is what I gathered from the conclusion: Eren, in the last few chapters (in the Paths dimension) convinces Ymir Fritz to 'let go' of being under the king's servitude. She regains her clarity. Then, as she watches Mikasa kiss Eren for the last time within the body of the Control Titan, Ymir observes that as how to break free: 1. The Ackermans are the ONLY two characters that haven’t turned Titan at the last second. Ymir decided, over the course of the whole story, that these Ackermans, past and present, are p cool people and thus protected by her descendents (not placed under Fritz Mind Control). 2. Ymir learns that she can love, and, to let go of him and be free, kill a tyrant. The story briefly switches to that moment in the past where Ymir DOESN’T catch the spear in her chest, thus leaving King Fritz to die. Her children don’t consume her body to get her Titan powers, and the Titan powers are retroactively wiped from the timeline returning everyone back to normal, as soon as Eren dies. 3. When Eren said he was going to kill all the Titans, he REALLY DID that. At the cost of almost sending humanity to the brink of extinction. He could fix the Titan problem, but not the conflict problem.

[@anthonychavez8837]

I thought it was supposed to be intentionally vague, that whether the Paths were in control the whole time or if Eren's vengeful existence overpowered/corrupted the Paths. Kinda of creating a chicken-and-egg theory.

[@sdbzfan1]

Woolie completely missed the point of Zekes character at the end Zeke wasnt becoming a good guy The last scene was him going, Man I wish I came to the conclusion life doesnt suck way earlier, oh well I've killed too many people to get a happy ending, and then dicapatated the whole show and Zeke's actions get recontectuallized when you get his backstory and realize he really did think death was a better option than being alive in this horrible world

[@KogashiwaKai]

As someone who dropped this halfway thru s1 and only caught the occasional manga panel. The fuck do you mean this series introduced TIME POWERS?!

[@music79075]

It's a really good series

[@KogashiwaKai]

nah it lost me the moment Eren became a titan I went "oh thats how the series is gonna handle this, no thanks"@@music79075

[@Used__Napkin]

I appreciate Woolie uploading half of last week’s podcast.

[@Tekrel]

Eren isn't changing anything they're in a loop everything that happened is what always happened. Not super clear what happens if he goes out of his way to cause a paradox but at the same time why would he? He had a few years left before the curse of Ymir killed him and one clear, terrible shot at true freedom for his friends.

[@k.-flynn]

Eren could never change any events, there's no time loop, and Eren's only godlike power was activating the Rumbling. The attack titan sees the memories of all its users, which means eren can see his own future but also is going nuts with dozens of other user's memories in his head. Honestly idk where they get some of this shit, the show states what's happening like word for word.

[@fenris5932]

Most of it isnt great but i still like Armin holding the baseball out to Zeke, getting to see Eren's mask crack and seeing the dipshit we were following for the first 3 seasons, and every scene with Levi as per usual

[@7U57HTJRYGHG]

>getting to see Eren's mask crack and seeing the dipshit we were following for the first 3 seasons that shit blew ass man i hoped for character development not "teehee guess im still the same dumbass as always"

[@fenris5932]

@7U57HTJRYGHG ...implying every other scene he's in in the post timeskip isn't character development? That scene is mostly just to show us that he's still the same guy under it all

[@Blagno4]

"Is attack on titan just anti-nuke?" PAT THE ENTIRE MEDIUM OF ANIME IS BASED ON ANTI-NUKE POST-WAR SHAME

[@blaze2690]

Eren was driven by freedom even before his mother died, he wanted to be a Scout afterall. Armin showing him pieces of the outside world also played a part in that. What came from his mother's death was the kill em all "tatakae" thing.

[@Muu0934]

I'm probably a minority in this opinion but I found Annie "I'd do it again" Lionheart's Golden Parachute ending just as hilarious as Orochimaru's "they just let him go" ending.

[@Terramagu]

None of the characters involved are innocent. Jean gets off scot-free, and that dude was straight up shooting at Liberian children. At least most of the people Annie killed were active combatants.

[@Muu0934]

@@Terramagu Well Pieck and Falco are the only ones war-crime free as they never defect from Marley. Though Annie does share 1/3 of a 250k body count from Wall Maria by proxy.

[@music79075]

More peace wouldn't have happened if he killed all beyond Paradis. A civil war in Paradis will happen inevitably. We dont even know who bombs shiganshina in the ending. We just know that Shiganshina gets bombed

[@FlutterSwag]

31:00 its the BEAST titan, all those being beasts, a dino titan prob did exist at one point but not in the show, there is a shark titan tho

[@Muu0934]

I still have my problems with the ending though the anime does a significantly better job at cleaning up the dialogue. Its cool that other people like it. Yay for closed loop/flat circle timelines I suppose.

[@shortsrus]

AoT is set in a deterministic universe. Once Eren see's the future, that future is bound to unfold. He could ONLY make the changes that would lead to the Rumbling since it was what he wanted. He was a slave to freedom

[@RGcrasyRG]

I've just watched a very long dream. 10 years long dream to be exact.

[@RGcrasyRG]

Hype was killed for me at final season part 2. But when I watched all this to the end - hypest shit ever.

[@aytony4090]

NO! I don't want that! Let it go for 10 more years, at least!

[@crimsonECH1DNA]

The in-universe rationale behind Eren's actions is he was supposed to be demoralized so he resorted to genocide. Which like, it's definitely a choice but then in the eleventh hour it felt like Isayama got cold feet and really wanted people to still empathize with Eren in the end so he had Armin forgive him. But then that went over so poorly we got the damage control in the anime but changing their conversation lol

[@NDenizen]

I assumed that Historia's child was Eren's, and so he was motivated to end the problem of future aggressioin before his term as a shifter was up. He was sick of fathers casting their problems onto their children, the titan inheritance being representative of that, and so he wanted to at least secure peace for the next generation. They would be able to live in a world without walls, even if he couldn't. Upon making contact with Ymir, he realised that she needed to be set free, and in doing so it would end the problem of titans permanently. Of course, doing that would remove Eldia's only meaningful defense against the outside world. Hence, his motivation changed from one of deterrence to the most permanent solution, fulfilling all his goals even if it meant a heavy price. Apparently that was wrong and he was destined to by fate and everything he ever said he was lying or pretending. Cool writing!

[@neloverg3774]

​NDenizen you've put more thought into Erens motivation than what was actually thought out. That at least makes sense. personally I also didn't like how important ymir became as the Manga went on, or about revealing the whole backstory. Personally I preferred all that being left to interpretation based off myth

[@erikstrasburg6411]

To all those disappointed like Woolie. I have to ask, what did you expect? Last episode we have such a valiant speech from the Marley Commander about forgiveness and past sins; but the second Eren is dead he has guns on the Eldions. History is meant to repeat itself and considering we've been on the edge of WW3 for the last 3 years, I'm inclined to agree with AoT cynic but realistic view on our species.

[@kamikazelemming1552]

I can understand why the Marley Commander did what he did after Eren died. Like, moments before, he watched the Eldians transform into Titans before his very eyes, and it was only through sheer luck that he wasn't gobbled up on the spot. Makes sense that he would be cautious and terrified, even with Eren dead.

[@joewall8210]

Eren season 1: animosity with no ability but has titan Eren season 4: animosity with dangerous ability and has titan.

[@nathantheholt]

@WoolieVersus I would highly recommend watching F.D. Signifier’s video essay about Eren Yeager (Anime is Great. Eren Yeager is not…). His video is more focused around masculinity and confronting/processing trauma by examining Eren and other characters like Guts. I think you’d enjoy it. It did come out before the show ended, so it goes off the manga ending instead.

[@ThatSamoanGuy]

*Jaeger

[@nathantheholt]

@@ThatSamoanGuy I’ve seen it spelled both ways so I went with what was in the video title I recommended, that’s all :)

[@soggysoles2872]

I always felt like stopping Eren was like the axis shock, where even though war continues and the world continues to suck, there’s a beacon of hope to look back on and apply it forward.

[@iamnuff1992]

Yeah but that's clearly not the case, given that you see the people of Paradiso get bombed out of existence in the epilogue. Clearly nothing was learned by anyone. Eren murdered 80% of the world in order to buy enough time for the handful of people he gave a fuck about to grow old and die before their descendants were exterminated by vengeful descendants of the people who survived his atrocity. At that point... its kinda like... he shouldn't have stopped? Or rather, he shouldn't have _started_ if he was just going to stop halfway. Like, if he'd have followed through and killed everyone outside of Paradise Island, then there'd be no vengeance in 200 years time. There'd be no scheming survivors or vengeful stories about 'demons' who all need to be exterminated. There would just be his own people, and a big empty world for them to explore freely, with nobody taking aim at them. You can talk about the cycle of vengeance, but the outsiders decided to exterminate the paradisians before the manga even started. They sent wave after wave of attacks and would not be deterred. They hated them with an almost religious fervour for something that happened before anybody who is currently alive was born. At that point, diplomacy isn't really an option. Even if you wipe out 80% of them and then stop, all that does is confirm in their minds that you absolutely have to die no matter what, because you're the greatest criminal in history and anyone who shares your blood could potentially gain the power to repeat the event. At that point, the only path for peace is to either let yourselves be exterminated so that they don't have anyone to hate anymore (like Zeke tried to do with his sterilization plan) or to wipe them out before they can wipe you out. The latter would be simple, if it wasn't "literally the whole planet except this one small island." but... thems the breaks, I guess. There will be plenty of land available for us to build colonies on after they're all gone.