Attempting To Explain The Axiom, Stephen and Schrodinger

[@personaqueenkitkat5760]

So basically...Stephen is Steven Hawkins, and he travels around multiple universe giving teenagers powergloves to fight God.

[@halbirb7303]

Yep and Steven Hawkins in real life created theorems about how black holes convert matter into information and was working on how they would come out on the other side. with that in mind, I believe that he one day long ago, he accidentally made a black hole that connected to the Expanse(the place where demons and gods are given form by the axiom). in the wiki, it states that he could not understand the demon and as a result, the demon became frustrated and went on a rampage which initially crippled Stephen. of course, anyone who could talk to 5th-dimensional beings can heal some legs.

[@barbdrake5999]

IT'S STEVEN HAWKING!!

[@kingedgelord4726]

Can't Stephen just get out of his wheelchair and end all of the games

[@leninthebeaniesouhacker.2459]

@@kingedgelord4726 nah, he's too busy playing pokemon showdown trying to go up the ladder but dracovish keeps clapping his cheeks.

[@kingedgelord4726]

@@leninthebeaniesouhacker.2459 knowing stephen he is trying to beat it with a delibird

[@AbdallahAhmed-qz6uu]

"God is the most powerful demon" -Fither 2020

[@heehomgee4671]

*fither 2017*

[@wooshmeifugay8719]

This says a lot about society

[@AbdallahAhmed-qz6uu]

@@heehomgee4671 lmao didn't look at the date haha

[@makotomachiyuki]

smt in nutshell

[@backupschmliff1156]

It's daemon. The greek word. It means mythological figure. However, it got simplified to demon and ATLUS West never bothered to fix it.

[@vincelag1677]

Stephens chair is the only thing that can restrict his powers

[@NirodimosNeedAKing]

Kinda like aizen

[@LeinRa-Reaction]

nah, considering he stands up in that certain fight....

[@efemji]

@@LeinRa-Reaction well he stood up in smt iv f dlc.. he said he wont hold back

[@Aeon_Is_Near]

@@efemji he didn't even lose the fight either, he just said "Ok that's enough" like he was getting bored

[@angelaguilar4279]

I think he was crippled before coming into contact with The Axiom.

[@centurionzo1228]

There's something interesting revealed by the developers. It's states that YHVH is not supposed to be an accurate depiction of the Judeo-Christian god with a similiar name, but rather that His erratic actions are symptomatic of something going terribly wrong with the universe. Also they did implied in Apocalypse with his final form that he may not be the true YHVH, as his demonic form and his action are close to the two beasts of the book of revelation, as YHVH works more like a fusion of the two instead of the Judeo-Christian God

[@RikkiSan1]

Then that makes a question if the thing you defeated wasn't YHVH then what was it and where is the real one? Was the YHVH is SMT2 also a fake one?

[@JuwanBuchanan]

@Letter N Yeah, the real YHVH has to be on an new tier of power that we'll have to define.

[@bloodraptor]

Probably the true YHWH is the axiom itself

[@MaksProger]

YHVH in SMT looks like corrupted herecy god people on this planet worship. Christians, Muslims. With the mentality obey or go to hell. While true YHVH is the one that allows existence independent from him.

[@dustyeg]

@@bloodraptor that would make sense

[@andresarancio6696]

There is also the fact Apocalypse seems to imply that the Axiom is kind of a self sustained machine of creation. Humans are "observers" that are gifted with free will and understanding, and through those things they create demons and gods out of the fundamental power of creation the Axiom has (is?). The thing that is left is what is the "creator God" according to this. For what I can piece together from Apocalypse and Nocturne, when a new universe is made the toughest demon of the previous one and a "observer" summon Kagustsuchi, which I imagine is a sort of "blank" aspect of God, ready to be filled with the Reason of the human and to make their patron demon into the new big cheese capital G creator God of the new universe. YHVH cheated by making sure He always was the big guy during the creation of a new universe so He always was the new creator God across multiple timelines (or at the very least that His ideals were ever present across the multiverse). In SMT 2, Aleph mess with YHVH's system by killing Him and leaving his timeline without a God, which indirectly caused the events of Nocturne, as YHVH decided to make sure he kept appearing in the universes by forcing different sides of his ideals into different Reason holders. This pissed off the Axiom beyond anything before which is why it starts sending multiple sets of Messiahs instead of only one and decides to stop holding Stephen from doing anything important, as destroying this fucking fourth dimensional cheater is more important to the multiverse than following all the rules. This is just my two cents, pretty sure I will have to review the theory once SMT5 comes out or something.

[@Missrena1000]

Andres Arancio I just started playing the SMT games with SMT 4 and apocalypse and this shit is already more complicated than final fantasy.

[@someguyparagon5273]

Missrena1000 Just wait until you hear the *MULTIVERSE THEORY* It's bat shit crazy and The Legend of Zelda multiverse ain't got nothing on it...

[@centurionzo1228]

Andres Arancio It's was revealed by Word of God (developers) that Despite being the main villain in this game and several others in the series, God is not the source of all evil. His villainy is more a symptom of something wrong with the overall picture. And he is also not the true YHVH

[@Eckskalibur]

Centurionzo 12 Oh ffs, that's not true GOD?! Either the devs mean to say the Axiom is the true God or this shit is going to escalate into defcon5/Midnight doomsday lvls of SMT BS, which at this point might as well be an annual tradition for the residents.

[@mailmanwilly]

Eckskalibur I feel like this is just the writers' way of saying "God is evil so we can have a plot, shut up though."

[@manunova5929]

Stephen was not nearly as powerful as he ended up since in SMT I he explains that he tried to create a portal for instant travelling (I guess those became the Terminals) and accidentally brought a demon. He couldn't understand it, and he managed to defeat it, but ended up crippled.

[@heavyc4450]

yeah but he level grinded and healed himself with magic and science. he created the demon summoning program, he good enough to write codes to create program spells to fuck people as hard as yhvh.

[@madderbatter1195]

I think Stephen is also implied to be a reincarnation of Abe no Seimei or someone who is on par with him, which somehow explains how he managed to create the DSP... kinda? At least that's what I got from Douman's iOS Visionary entry.

[@FoieGras]

He "said" that but we see that he stood up in IV: Apocalypse XD

[@cathedral1375]

@@FoieGras well it's been years since he was originally crippled he probably only keeps the chair around out of convenience at this point, I mean look at how his posed on that thing, he always has one leg folded over the other like he comfy as hell.

[@stonalisa3729]

Cathedral There’s nothing convenient of this wheel chair of the apocalypse has no handicap entrances

[@Thecreater2]

RIP Steven Hawking. He died 12am eastern Pi day.

[@dragonmaster613]

He didn't die, he ascended as one with the universe! (Only one such as he could write "Brief History of Time") Seriously though, Rest In Peace Steven!

[@coatguy2990]

@@dragonmaster613 looking bad today, how do you feel about your comment?

[@dragonmaster613]

@@coatguy2990 it was a riff on the Elvis joke in "Men in Black"

[@RoboticBomber]

Fun fact, I was barely awake for most of this. I think I still got it. Kinda.

[@alterionnarvien5933]

RoboticBomber I'm sure you did great man. :)

[@Dadan-dan]

Go get proper sleep. I know for experience that not sleeping because of SMT is really bad for your health... and your grades. Everything else that is sleep depriving? Totally okay.

[@RoboticBomber]

You nailed it super hard

[@grayson206]

RoboticBomber Why do I always find myself watching this mess when I’m totally gone

[@powerfulberry237]

Im sorry you are born dumb

[@postapocalypse0763]

Of course the cat is called Schrodinger XD

[@FoieGras]

And the dog's name is Pascal XD

[@smartstuf1026]

They’re pretty cool names for animals

[@薔薇-k2m]

Smart Stuf i wanted to call a dog Pascal, but couldn't get a dog. But now my frog's name is Pascal.

[@robthecook1905]

@@FoieGras He was there

[@borissurkan3035]

I honestly think that the cat is in the junkyard cuz he dead and he's in the real world cuz he alive

[@VannMunson]

I've only played persona and from my perspective the intro sounds like somebody getting inducted into a cult.

[@eldrasgames5008]

Lol welcome to SMT

[@cathedral1375]

It might as well be but let me ask you this, does other religions have cool games based off of them ? No, I don't think they do. Welcome to smt buddy.

[@stonalisa3729]

Just remember this started because a high schooler was bullied

[@godfrey4461]

@@stonalisa3729 Summoning Loki hits different

[@vovabars1234]

Compared to Persona SMT is like consuming 10kg of lsd

[@tataladdd4251]

ed turn into a 1 dimensional being for me wha?

[@xxamstormxx]

4:25

[@桜満薫]

Micheal Steamson my man

[@darkspinspard4258]

I wonder if the Axiom is not a metaphor and/or is tied to us the players .

[@arumaru3433]

The player isn't really all knowing though

[@darkspinspard4258]

@@arumaru3433 that's a fair point now that you mention it...

[@haruhirogrimgar6047]

@@darkspinspard4258 If anything the Axiom is the engine or console the game is run on and humanity is the developers with the players sort of being the demons. The engine (Axiom) gives shape to the thoughts and gods the developers (humans) have come up with. Only for us the players (demons) to be summoned in order to help the developers kill God in the story they outlined.

[@Zettoman]

or the devs

[@wolf397]

Trying to comprehend the Megami Tensei lore and The Axiom nearly killed me

[@backupschmliff1156]

Aren't you the Persona 3 Twitter shoot self in head guy?

[@wolf397]

@@backupschmliff1156 that is me 😎

[@backupschmliff1156]

@@wolf397 How's Reload

[@LeJinlong428]

“God is essentially the most powerful demon.” Oh dear, let’s not take this out of context

[@Darth_Bateman]

I mean why not? A demon is basically a god that isn't worshipped anymore.

[@bogus8591]

Yhvh isn't even the strongest demon

[@backupschmliff1156]

Daemon. The greek word.

[@spikedwallman]

I think canonically, stephen made the devil summoning program before he made contact with the axiom, because it's stated that he received his crippling injury by a demon summoning that went wrong, because he couldn't communicate with the demon he summoned.

[@acjackson127]

I don't get how this is confusing. In the war of 1877 Hulk Hogan defeated Kim Kil Wahn in their legendary battle thus causing the world to be almost completely destroyed, except for its two creators: Terry Crews and Abraham Lincoln. through their intense love for each otter they made the world yet again and then some Japanese people made a series called shin megoomi tensay that the degenerates of society played for fun. A major element of this series was know as: The Great Will or if you've played SMT: Life is Hella Strange then you know it as Lord Sanders or the form he is currently known for, Colonial Sanders. Anyone who doesn't know this common knowledge isn't a true smt fan. BTW Fither you gonna play Danganronpa V3 or are you gay with Flair.

[@sketch-eee4165]

The part that confuses people about this logic is that you used otter in place of other.

[@markclinton9088]

@@sketch-eee4165 I see no typo

[@sketch-eee4165]

@@markclinton9088 Itself been edited a long while ago.

[@angelswarz8995]

@@sketch-eee4165 The Otter is still alive and kicking

[@sketch-eee4165]

@@angelswarz8995 👀

[@muthesquirrel]

Hmm... I'm not sure if it's that the axiom thinks God is a prick so much as it is wishes to maintain balance by giving mankind the power to fight back and control its own destiny. If the axiom did not intervene God would always succeed throughout all realities which would ruin the balance, but by giving mankind power and the ability to choose and fight for its own future the balance is maintained. I also don't think it's saying that the demi-fiend DID lose, more it's saying that he COULD lose. Within the MegaTen series there's really no one true ending, rather ALL realities and all outcomes are true within different realities. SMT if... for example splits into two timelines that are the main SMT series and the Devil Summoner/Persona series. In SMTIV you get to visit the realities of other outcomes, and Apocalypse is a whole game based on another possible reality - but it doesn't invalidate the endings of SMTIV. That means that there are realities in which the Demi-Fiend won and realities where he lost as well as even more realities where he followed the other Reasons. Finally, those aren't 'fake' Gods that show up in other SMT games, it's explained in Strange Journey they're fragments of YHVH who was shattered after the final battle in SMTII. He is only officially reformed by the end of SMTIV... In Apocalypse rather than shattering Him again they disown him causing him to become a fallen God, that's why his final form looks so much like Bael - another God that was fallen due to its rejection by mankind. This would suggest that this is all part of the cycle. Gods are created and fall all the time, with several of the previously dethrowned Gods making up the Divine Powers... YHVH will just be replaced and the cycle will start over. Brahman just happens to be the God of the Digital Devil universe just like Devil Survivor 2 has its own version of God. YHVH doesn't always have to be God across all realities it would seem.

[@TORchic1]

iirc, Brahman was taking up data because of Sera. Sera was communicating with it, but after seeing Sheffield and realizing how horrible he is, her feelings at the moment are sent to Him and he decides the world shouldn't exist or something. Idk.

[@heavyc4450]

yeah and that why they gone to the sun to talk with brahman and convince him that the world and humanity should exist. by talk i mean beat him until he recognize their determination. Also I think humanity in general being assholes and sheffield being sheffield put tip brahman over.

[@shaddykack]

Why have we entered theoretical astrophysics and quantum physics in my persona/SMT vidyas?

[@abaque24]

Only SMT tbh, it's more out there than persona. (not putting down the themes and ideas in persona though).

[@jackstriderknightoftime8560]

Ok... After doing the Stephen DLC... I have something to say. And its regarding SMT 1 Protagonist, The Hero. If we use Nanashis Story as reference for how fast a Godslayer can grow, we see that a normal human with a lot of drive/being the messiah can become a full fledged GodSlayer in a week or so. The Hero is in the diamond realm after the nukes drop. And he is on par with his other messiahs. In other words, in the week/week and a half it took Nanashi/Flynn to be "Max Power", or ATLEAST whatever we are calling the state they are in when they beat YHVH... If we give the same reference frame for the other heros, which, we don't see time pass for them, but it stands to reason that a week is pretty fast for growth, so let's say The Hero's story takes 2 weeks, with that time skip after he went to the Diamond Rhelm. THIS is that time. And that happened about 1/3-1/2 of the way through the story!!! So if we are being generous, SMT 1 Protagonist grew to Flynn(Messiah)/Nanashi(Immortal Godslayer)/Endgame True Demon Demifiend/Aleph(Meta-Jesus) level... IN 3-4 DAYS!!! Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk.

[@jackour8167]

Nahh he probably just got a power up that didn't come with him. Because after the explosion he gets his a$$ handed to him later on by *I think* bail or something like that. Also demi fiend didn't have a full day, legit just 6 hours.

[@bogus8591]

It's literally stated that they were amped bruh

[@zeratule]

Correct me if im wrong, but in stange journey they explain that the mothers defeat god and split him in various pieces. So insted of being fake gods, wouldn't they be fragments him?

[@Fitherfith]

yeah gods and demons can do that to each other, God straight up lost in a fight against Mem Aleph and the other mothers and so he got split up into pieces like Demiurge and Metatron. On the other hand God has done to same thing to Bel, splitting him into about 10 other Bel demons

[@BlooperTanooki]

I'm so interested in how SMT V will aboard the Axiom. We basically know already that YHVH is reachable and defeatable. The devs said in the first interviews for SMT V as far as I can remember, that the game will now focus on humanity itself, referencing stuff like racism, sexism, terrorism and competitiveness. If that ends up being true, we may be in for the most influential SMT game ever. The wait is killing me though. Update: FEMBOY

[@JuwanBuchanan]

Thing is its implied in Apocalypse that the YHVH you fight may not be the real true YHVH and just another avatar, but the closest to the true one and if that's the case, the real YHVH has to be on a newer tier of power that we have to define.

[@rudys.artous5477]

@@JuwanBuchanan the real YHVH is the great will lol. I bet there are endless avatars of The Great Will, not just kagutsuchi and yhvh.

[@denkerbosu3551]

Oh god, its going to be even more preachy and shiet? Well, maybe their resettera "fans" may not want to censor it at least.

[@TactlessGuy]

I hope they keep it nuanced just like the other SMT games, because if the themes are too simplified then idiots will try to use them for their own political narratives instead of actually understanding them.

[@arya9c26]

If smt v is released i will buy nintendo switch

[@ProfessionalNamielleLewder69]

Stephen hopping across dimensions. Imagine him in his wheelchair moving way past the speed of light.

[@requiem7290]

Fast and furious multiversal drift

[@xenobell2475]

He should be above the concept of speed

[@requiem7290]

@@xenobell2475 please don't mess with the joke

[@TheBonkleFox]

Initial D music playing as he pulls off sick drifts.

[@devilbuster20xx37]

Initial D-emon

[@theblackcoatedman6794]

It's quite something really. The axiom that is the great will of all, a being even higher than YHWH... it can even consider the Demi-Fiend, someone who wiped the cycle of rebirth on his world, a messiah.

[@Darth_Bateman]

When you consider that the entire world was just wiped out by god, you can understand why he was so hesitant to do what god wanted. . . .

[@zorochii]

inb4 Space Marine defeats the Axiom. :)

[@maramba32]

i can get behind this

[@plantmaster115]

For the Emperor! For the Imperium of Man!

[@JawsFG_]

Cadia broke before the guard did

[@professionalfangster1510]

>tfw axiom dies to guy with gun why live-oh wait i can't live because universe is destroyed

[@arzfan29]

The axiom would just immediately come back

[@Davvg]

Admittedly, I’m pulling this straight out of my ass- but I feel like the relationship between Steven and the Axiom mirrors the relationship between Metatron and YHVH. Metatron is also occasionally depicted as the “voice of god”, and the human Enoch transformed into an angel; this is occasionally mentioned in SMT (his 4/A profile, some dialogue) It makes a little sense, to me at least, that a fifth dimensional being might have a hard time “dumbing down” its communication for a typical three dimensional being; but Steven isn’t that, having managed to traverse different realities freely. Steven might have gained some deeper understanding or caught the attention of the axiom (especially if the axiom is partial to humans, given the ability of observation presumably given by the axiom itself- I think some of the dlc mentions this?) and we know that he is more than just human. What I’m saying is *all* of SMT is the Axiom asking Steven to politely tell the rest of us humans to stop trampling its fifth-dimension flower beds with all this “YHVH” shit.

[@Davvg]

that all said we see very plainly that YHVH has no trouble communicating with humans all on his own in SMT, even if he usually chooses not to, so metatron’s role as voice of god is dubious at best

[@gottesurteil3201]

Axiom could be God in actuality where YHVH is humanity's distorted image of him. The reason I say this for instance is considering that in SMT 4: Apocalypse, YHVH can be brought down to the existence of a demon, so it is likely he is not the true creator God.

[@chavaspada]

Furthermore, in lore, Metatron is supposed to be originally Enoch, a human. So Stephen may also be a human ascended into a higher status.

[@BinaryDood]

so the Axiom from this verse is like the Wave Existence from Xenogears

[@xenobell2475]

BinaryDood yeah basically

[@pixelcount350]

I am what am. The conceptual metaphysics of creation and the absence of creations. I am the one true lord of all things. -The supreme one

[@rod9527]

Ah a true man of culture I see , but yeah theyre both 5th dimensional beings (also ghidorah from godzilla the planet eater)

[@michaelbaiden1308]

Stephen probably doesn't fight God because he needs humanity to do that themselves. In the dlc he explains that he sees potential for humanity to transcend the axiom and so I think he's guiding them to that greatness.

[@michaelbaiden1308]

If someone else defeats God humans will just recreate him but maybe by defeating God they'll finally be independent of him and other beings like him

[@sket0tles]

I think stephen was just trying to make a teleportation system, and just sorta accidentally summons demons, from what i remember from the hour i played smt 1

[@wolfmech]

So basically the Axiom is the location from which everything ever conceived started, ends, and returns to. Stephen & Schrodinger then are acting as both manifestations of humans' vast attempts at not only higher knowledge but what that knowledge would look like from the human perspective. Not to mention they also act as caretakers of said Axiom quite like our good old duo Igor and his various assistants.

[@shadedergu9921]

Ya wanna know the easiest way to understand the Axciom, Stephen, and basically all of SMT and why humanity's power of observation is such a big deal? Just look into quantum mechanics and take it into its completely ultimate extreme, and that is basically the world-state of SMT

[@StrayPitboss]

Schrodinger is just Stephen's persona, out taking a walk during DDS.

[@trace4058]

I don't know why, I just really love watching you two interact. You have such great chemistry!

[@jekyllhyde656]

The Axiom is the GM and God is a player that manged to bullshit their way into always being the big cheese

[@biogundam6541]

So basically you guys are trying to explain the concept of the universe as a being of it own. Doesn't sound to bad like it's just saying that the universe has rules that will always to active no matter what The law and choas factions want.

[@elementallobsterx]

YHVH is a thoughtform of the ultimate existence, or singular monad truth, which of course attracts the most respect and mental energy

[@Yggdrasill299792]

The Axiom could be seen as the "rules of nature/laws of the universe/physics/Metaphysics". Human observe parts of those rules and reduce them into gods something that makes the Axiom smaller. Dagda or yhwh exist only as a product of humans false or incomplete understanding of the Axiom. Dagda as a god of knowlege knows that his existence is one of ignorance and incomplete understanding wants to become part of the Axiom again or as he says himself "nature". If the Axiom are basicly like math or logical Axioms you can't fuck with them. A=A don't break that or we have issues.

[@limmynade]

While i haven't played smt4/ the games where The Axiom is mentioned but the word alone made me think of the same

[@CyberMaverickGamer]

So YHWH is basically a fraction of the Axiom.

[@transforgoku]

@@CyberMaverickGamer It's contaminated 4th dimensional poop...

[@Dadan-dan]

For my understanding Brahman is more like the Tower of Babylon from DS than kagutsuchi in that is some like a cluster of information that was transfering the world into a state of just 'data' instead of a phisical form, kinda like a natural conception instead of the forced one produced by the Kagutsuchi in which it was the law of the universe what was changed but not the people in it. Stephen, Mido and can't-remember-his-name-guy are being that reached enlighment in different ways. Stephen by inventing the teleportation device that accidentaly conected with the Makai and discovering other dimension that way, Mido by making himself data to continue his studies about demons and can't-remember-his-name-guy is never told. So, yeah pretty much what the Axion is but with an ego (will). Actually, wouldn't the Axion be kinda like the Collective Conciouness from the Persona series? Well, in the databook that is more or less explained why it exist while the Axion is more all encompasing I guess.

[@heavyc4450]

his name is saint Germain in smt and Raidou. Mido pretty much likely created demon fusion and goes across the universe fusing demons as it rocks his shit and stephen created the demon summoning program, added apps and program and edit with magic/ magnetite to pretty much be as powerful as smart as stephen is....and stephen is fucking smart as hell.

[@tonyfinale.]

man I could listen to you babble forever

[@RoboticBomber]

Thanks?

[@arempy5836]

The Axiom is, at least how I understand it, all existence and everything in it. The universe is the body of god and everything is god. It can't have one identity as it is all identities including YHVH, Lucifer, every demon, every human etc. It is the universal mind and the universes are like thoughts in it's head. YHVH is an idea/ego that dominates the mind and messiahs are are the concept that battles that idea. All the games that follow such a pattern are the same conceptual struggle. YHVH is the ideal of order and structure and it grows stagnant needing to be defeated to ensure the universes evolution. The universe is a consciousness. Human consciousness is a reflection of that. Human are the universe knowing itself. That's why our beliefs can become physical in the form of demons. We are dreamers influencing the dream.

[@mik3191]

Ahh my head fucking hurts why does that makes sense

[@ninja011]

I am not stoned enough for this.

[@RyansFine]

I was and am, and it still wasn't enough honestly 😂😂

[@requiescantenpace]

@@RyansFine then you weren't smoking the good shit, cuz I got this

[@awailmerpail7005]

This video explains the Axiom pretty well, I'd say. There are a few points I somewhat disagree on, though: Demi-Fiend losing and him being restricted to his own timeline, as well as Brahman being a fake god. Saying Demi-Fiend loses against the Great Will in the True Demon Ending is like saying any one of the endings in SMTII is definitively canon. Hell, there's a cellphone game that follows up on the Law Ending of SMT1. Pretty much none of the endings in SMT are concrete. Even the True Demon Ending itself is just another possibility out of many. SMT is all about possibilities. That said, DDS Demi-Fiend's definitely one of the ones that fucked up; you don't just end up in the literal underworld while you're still alive, so that's either a TDE Demi-Fiend that's failed or DE Demi-Fiend. It's also a possibility that he didn't actually fight the Axiom, but YHVH like the rest of the protagonists. I tend to think it's the Axiom myself, but there's plenty of evidence to suggest both possibilities. Nocturne never outright states what the Great Will is, so interpret that how you will. Another thing is that Demi-Fiend's implied to have destroyed the flow of time in the Amala Universe completely, so I doubt he's restricted to his own timeline at that point. The fact that he can even end up in the DDS setting alone means he /has/ to have broken outside of his own timeline, same with his boss fight in the MMO. If him being susceptible to Root of Evil is any indication, though, it could be debated. And now, my last point: Brahman is outright not a fake god. The games make it pretty clear he's the supreme deity of the DDS setting. Schrodinger is connected to Seraph, who is stated to have become one with God and has achieved actual Nirvana. Stephen, in much the same way, can be said to have ascended to a higher state of being. My personal interpretation is that beings such as Kagutsuchi, Brahman, and YHVH are charged with maintaining the natural order of their respective realities. YHVH in particular is just really bad at it, and is more concerned with exercising control over whichever realities he's the supreme being of, twisting the natural order of things solely to his own benefit. Meanwhile, we can assume Brahman and Kagutsuchi perform their duties properly. (Okay, that /should/ be the last edit. Can never quite be satisfied with these, honestly.)

[@The_WIll_OF_D99]

Damn very interesting read 🤩

[@llukeamon]

So it's like the root from the natsuverse? The source of existence and creation from all infinite timelines, and those who gain access to it gain great power like Stephen did with the axiom

[@carlcouture1023]

Stephen developed the demon summoning program by accident.

[@KrankuSama]

Demons

[@Samm815]

The Fourth Dimension is time. But to us lesser creature we can only go in one direction, forward. Never back, never up, and never down. YHWH being able to go in more than one direction make him God and all the others only demons. The Great Will is so powerful that we can't comprehend it.

[@ThatGuy-fz8xv]

I know this is late but oh well, but the 4th dimension is not time. Science has proven this kinda? We literally can’t understand a 4th dimensional thing, but there is a kinda explanation of what it is

[@masterofbloopers]

The Axiom/Great Will is just Atlus.

[@Junpeidaman190]

The axiom ≠ the great Will

[@manunova5929]

Didn't Nyarlathotep say that humans themselves have created demons and shadows in Persona 2? I mean, that makes all have sense.

[@Dadan-dan]

Manu Nova Thay are created by the collectivw thought of humanity of how the demons should look like, giving or taking strenght ddpending on how much humanity believe they are/exist. You can find an extended explanation on the wiki's Nyx page or searching for the artcle it's mentioned there, there was someone who translated the whole thing somewhere.

[@saddboye1568]

I think the demons of Persona are more like Shadows. The worst types of archetypes and emotions in people given physical form by Nyarlathotep.

[@vovabars1234]

Yes but this is SMT

[@manunova5929]

Still, Persona 1 and 2 are more similar to mainline than 3, 4 and 5, and all games are connected by being the same multiverse with similar rules. Also, that still doesn't deny the fact that Nyarly's speech fits the Axiom's work based on humans' beliefs precisely. That was what I meant to say three years ago, that even outside of mainline, demons are usually the same, unless they're shadows.

[@vovabars1234]

@@manunova5929 this is true, however persona, at least starting from part 3 takes libirties in how demons and general cosmology works from SMT

[@coatguy2990]

I think we'll see an entire 0 of steven after the epstein island story :,D

[@gatst7680]

My interpretation of Schrodinger is that he is another Seraph from an alternate universe who ascended beyond their universe and decided to search out other Seraphs to show them the way.

[@crazygabe2000]

"So the reason why Stephen doesn't fuckin mollywhop God"

[@DGP406]

No. The Axiom is not exactly a being, but more like a metadimensional pattern that reached sentience.

[@Junpeidaman190]

The axiom is the collective unconscious

[@NVLUTZ007]

The 4th dimension is time, the 5th dimension can be thought of as “choice” or effect. While the 6th dimension is all the variants of the 5th dimension occurring simultaneously In your perception while separated in their own realities. A great visual example of experiencing the sixth dimension would be the Rick & Morty episode, “ schrodinger's cat”.

[@randomd00d19]

My understanding of the Axiom is "100% the actual God but can only do so much to interact with reality". Fits more in line with a more modern day nebulous interpretation of God as "almighty, but is mostly hands off" as opposed to plague, pestilence, and miracles God that we see in the stories of all religions.

[@trapscancreate5760]

The Axiom is basically the equivalent of the lovecraftian beast that is asleep and dreamed our universe into creation and when he wakes up the universe ends. There is no beating it stoping him because doing so is not only physically impossible but also would theoratically kill us all

[@xAreuto]

Not really, the Axiom itself can’t be considered a physical being or even a being in the first place. The Axiom goes beyond what normal people could even comprehend. It’s not something that humans could ever come into contact unless the axiom chooses to come into contact with humans.

[@trapscancreate5760]

@@xAreuto I meant more in the since of how much of a constant it is in the world. It's a being that is a constant in every universe and timeline. It created the universe and the universe can't exist without it.

[@ohamatchhams]

@@trapscancreate5760 So you're equaling The Axiom with Lovecraft's Azathoth?

[@ReFriedNoodles]

Infinity vs Zero in a neverending 4th and 5th dimensional calculus battle to the death. While 3rd dimensionals are used as pawns in the long war. My head hurts thinking about this and abstract math. Fuck. 😣

[@completedGrimoire]

He has become one with the axiom

[@KamenKami]

Farewell dear Steven...

[@alterionnarvien5933]

OH! So the Axiom is the Warp!

[@vladdtronnz6924]

I swear that damn cat's grin becomes more grim the more I look at it

[@punmastamatthew3543]

I don't know about the Axion creating Schrodinger but Stephen makes more sense cause why would the Axion make something that is part of our reality or understanding when something like the Axion is just beyond it and since Stephen was a 3rd dimensional being that acceded to 5th dimensional status wouldn't it make sense that he used Schrodinger as a test subject than did himself or after doing it to himself he created Schrodinger to do what he couldn't do cause most of the interaction with Stephen are when he is in a empty room and usually sitting in a chair so he might be a 5th dimensional being but not able to interact with the 3rd dimension space except what we have seen him do in past SMT games

[@cathedral1375]

I love how he says one of those is an axiom without hesitation and continues speaking fucking hilarious.

[@Benjamin-ml7sv]

The Axiom isn't 5th dimensional, he is above dimensions as a whole.

[@jotaroisbestboy7593]

Boundless

[@Benjamin-ml7sv]

@@jotaroisbestboy7593 I am pretty sure that is not what Boundless means.

[@jotaroisbestboy7593]

@@Benjamin-ml7sv the axiom is boundless since itself above 4 SMT protagonist

[@Benjamin-ml7sv]

@@jotaroisbestboy7593 Being above Outerversal characters doesn't neccecarily make you boundless.

[@jotaroisbestboy7593]

@@Benjamin-ml7sv but demi feind and aelph and "the hero" and fynn have shown higher Level of outerversal

[@FireMinstrel]

He wasn't THAT smart...Steven was in the wheelchair BECAUSE he couldn't handle the demons. They attacked him, leaving him unable to walk anymore. He admitted it himself.

[@RikkiSan1]

Yeah but then you look at the DLC for smt Apocalypse and he is able to stand when you're fighting him. My theory is that while initially he was disabled due to Demons, he is on a different plane of existence now and could honestly walk around if he wanted to but because he's so powerful he has to hold back so much power that he makes himself disabled.

[@262cj]

I've watched this video every so often because I just love hearing fither describe how Stephen feels about YHVH. "The Axiom just thinks God is the biggest prick because he's a 4th dimensional prick"

[@Vitz_atelier]

I would say that the Axiom is more like 9th or 10th dimensional and Steven is more like a 7th or 8th dimensional being. I would need to review the concepts of said dimensions to explain, but just know that the 10th dimension is pretty much what you guys said The Axiom is: existence itself. cool video btw

[@JuwanBuchanan]

This guy got it all wrong. Yhvh and the Axiom is much higher than 4th and dimensions. The Axiom is all there is. It is beyond all concepts that you can think of. It is pass beyond the scope of dimensions, so high that it cant interact with anyone directly. YHVH is an infinite dimensional being and maybe the equivalent to the Axiom. Closest comparisons are the Pre-Beyonder from Marvel, Lucifer Morningstar from DC etc. All the heads you fight in SMT are just avatars of him because they always eventually come back, implying that the ones you fight arent the real YHVH at all.

[@Oznerock]

@@JuwanBuchanan Not really... the game heavily implies that YHVH does die. He comes back because demons are created from belief, and people will inevitably go back to believing in YHVH´s order, which recreates him.

[@CaptainKupo]

at the end of digital devil saga 2 seraph breaks free of the karmic cycle and becomes one with "god" (the axiom) so we can assume it means that shroedinger is seraph after becoming one with the axiom, since they essentially are an avatar of the axiom they can move 4 dimensionally or whatever, and go back in time to lead their past self (serph/sera) to the point where they defeat brahman and save the earth its safe to assume that brahman is god in the sense that the biblical YHVH doesnt exist in the DDS timeline, and instead it is ruled by brahman who is far less of a violent and fascist entity, more just working as a passive being that runs the show, cycling data and continuing the cycle of death and rebirth. the only reason it even became agressive is the events with serph sheffield and original heat and argilla causing sera to freak out and send all the bad data to Brahman/god, making him angry YHVH, kagatsuchi, Brahman, all of those high tier "god" entities are effectively different aspects of the axiom that run any given timeline or even serve custodial roles such as kagatsuchi being a "judge" within the vortex world

[@santus07]

Brahaman and Kagutsuchi are aspects of the Axiom. Also maybe Stephen doesn't really talk directly to the axiom, but to schrodinger, and like you said if the cat is working for the axiom then there u have it

[@obi-wankenobi4337]

"Gay virgin" Fither: One of those is an Axiom Me: I knew he was gay

[@heavyc4450]

The reason why Stephen doesn't kill YHVH is likely the observation power humans have. Stephen is like HUMAN + or ubergestalt like Al gore was in SJ after his death. The Brilliance in SJ is likely the path or A path to humans becoming more humans like Dagda said. That or Stephen and/or Axiom wanted humans to do the job.

[@heavyc4450]

Also Stephen wanted to create teleportation but summon a demon. Stephen beat the demon but got crippled. He made the demon translation program to communicate with demons and well, then created how to turn matter to data and data to matter (after the demon thing, stephen figure out teleportation so yay!) and well...some demons are really huge so stephen created the storage to keep demons in your party. Thus the demon summoning program was born! Needless to say without stephen, humanity would be ultra omega ass fucked in all the timelines in all the universes. even the persona timeline would not have existed without the demon summoning program.

[@zomboids2100]

Hooray for stephen hawking saving us all.

[@mori7644]

The Axiom seems really familiar to The Root or Alaya from Kara no Kyoukai or the nasuverse

[@TheBonkleFox]

Arsene Lupin Assassin for f/go when, type moon

[@alexanderrosado7624]

Some people understand that human beings are the universe experiencing itself. according to shin megami tensei the axiom handles the "cycle of reincarnation" in SMT1 when the protagonist dies after the americans attack he doesn't die, he goes to kongokai "The expance" the axiom is the same thing when a human being has died a long time ago a live human can understand how that person will think about something happening in the present sort of "the soul" and messiahs do things that are not them but energy that's why they have the power kill demons and false gods its because energy is in control and it knows and it's always going to win

[@alexanderrosado7624]

When you battle steven in messiahs in the diamond realm dlc, his classification is "meta data" steven might have zero meat in his body.

[@Coco-ee2mq]

i like how stephen is basically god but he can't see without glasses

[@zombyjano]

I used to just think The Great Will was just "God's" true form, and that all the YHVHs we see in multiple games are just like personsa or avatars of him; something along those lines. Boy was I wrong.

[@elcidbob]

Guys, there's no ch sound in the word axiom.

[@RyansFine]

0:30 seconds in and my head hurts already, but please continue 😂😂

[@kyrozudesoya1829]

Turns out it was really just the Great Will of the Macrocosm from Excel Saga.

[@rotraven]

I think of Stephen as a Gman. At the right place, at the right time.

[@Stephen-vq1wc]

In most times yes

[@dinoley22]

In Smt 1 stephen tell the protagonist how trying to create teleportation , open a gate to the world of the demons , to what later will be known as the devil summoning program , later create a progran to translate their language so it could be easy deal with then , and then send the program with the hope "someone" could stop the balance from swifting , sorry for my butchered english btw

[@ghostmelon4557]

I just realize that the video slowly zooms in.

[@BetaXeeta]

All I’m getting from this is that every SMT game is connected through a multiverse and that’s why Demi-fiend is a boss in SMT IV

[@kyrozudesoya1829]

Well Lucifer states this in Nocturne.

[@BetaXeeta]

@@kyrozudesoya1829 the multiverse part yeah The games being tied together through that multiverse? That wasn’t explicit so we can only theorize and this just gives even stronger evidence for it to be true

[@properjellydontbeproper3652]

I want SMT 5 already😭 Damn. Going on like 3 years.................Besides giving money for preorders I feel like they would want a couple of viles of tears

[@RikkiSan1]

Well congrats you only have to wait another year

[@properjellydontbeproper3652]

@@RikkiSan1 😭 My tears are bottled & ready to ship out,along with my wallet. Nocturne PLUS the collectors edition (if we get it) PLUS SmtV.

[@Moayad56]

Stephen really pulled a joker on us huh

[@beastbass1]

so, stephen hits the smt protagonists with the power of infinity, superman can lift infinity, smt protagonists on par with superman confirmed

[@StrayPitboss]

Get his ass tagged in for the next YHVH beatdown

[@jackour8167]

Superman gets stomped

[@Rxmonste]

It's interesting, I'm thinking about Igor and the Velvet Room Attendants now, I don't think it's very clear how much power they have and what they're limited by. Are they similar to Stephen and Schrodinger in that sense?

[@jouheikisaragi6075]

Rxmonste they're as strong as maybe Aleph since Philemon is the Steven expy for Persona.

[@Jaknife101]

I think you'd have to start with figuring out where Philemon falls in terms of power to determine where their power lies, seeing as how Philemon (the blue butterfly in (almost) every Persona game) created the velvet room, those within are his servants, and allowed humans to obtain the persona abilities. To quote the Megaten wiki: "Philemon lives within the realm of the consciousness and unconsciousness of all souls and he awakens within people the ability to use Personas. He cannot directly interfere, however, the party is aided by the Velvet Room, which is filled with his servants. Philemon is conducting an experiment with Nyarlathotep to see if humans can become enlightened beings, rising above their nature, or if they will completely and utterly destroy themselves. The war between the two is revealed to be essentially a bet between the two meant to probe humanity's heart to wonder what lies inside: whether Nyarlathotep's ultimate triumph, or Philemon's."

[@Jaknife101]

I honestly think it's fascinating, as Igor, along with all the Velvet Room attendants, are all references to Frankenstein with their names, and it makes a lot of sense because of how Philemon did all of this as an "experiment". It makes me look at Igor a different way.

[@zaregoto6022]

i think the axiom is capable of lowering itself to lower dimension its just that its a risk since it would lowering his power and YHVH would take action if this happens

[@acedianPianist]

I don't think that's the danger at all. YHVH is/was the Axiom lowering itself to around our range of dimensions. Then YHVH split Kagutsuchi from Nocturne and Brahman from Digital Devil Saga likely were equivalent avatars. The Axiom simply won't lower itself, doing so would not risk it - but it would risk the rest of the multiverse and perpetuate a needless battle with a being it shouldn't have to do battle with. That's why it empowers Messiahs instead, with their unique perspective and gift of observation, because that would mean less damage in the long run.

[@Eckskalibur]

0:01 In the same vein as Family Guy's way of thinking; Super-God.

[@giovannigonzalez6349]

the axiom is just basically the warp from warhammer 40k A meta physical presence that exists outside our realm of comprehension,Yet our emotions and thoughts affect it. Creating creatures that are made up of our beliefs and ideas. As well as gods forming in it trying to take control of the mortal world.

[@RikkiSan1]

The only difference is that I do not think the warp in 40K is self aware of itself.

[@dragonfire5000]

Actually, the Great Will and the Axiom are different things. Not only do they have different names in Japanese, but those Japanese names have different meanings as well. Great Will is referred to as 大いなる意思 (ooinaru ishi), where "ishi" refers to the philosophical definition of "Will" - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Will_(philosophy) The Axiom, however, is referred to as 大いなる理 (ooinaru li), where "li" refers to the Neo-Confucian concept that the order of nature is reflected in its organic forms - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_(Neo-Confucianism) Every SMT game I've seen where the Great Will is mentioned always uses 大いなる意思, so I'm inclined to think that the Axiom has a different Japanese name because it's meant to be something completely different.

[@acedianPianist]

I'm not entirely sure. Because while you're correct in bringing up the Japanese titles, there's also the idea that those two titles end off differently because they're different instances of the same thing that are conflated in-universe - rather than the two being different things full-stop. Or, in simpler words - the Great Will and the Axiom are not different things in essence, they are in-fact different interpretations of the same concept. It's important here to define 'li' - historically a difficult thing to define all in one, but the closest idea seems to be one of 'organic order'; while the order found in the arrangement of human muscular systems is an example, it goes on to the observance of natural things like clouds and cleavages in crystal as having order - 'li' is basically just the way things are meant to function structurally in our world, basically. A cosmic, immutable anatomy. Specifically in regards to the 'Axiom' referring to 'li', this makes a lot of sense; besides the 'immutable anatomy' bit fitting in with the definition of an axiom, the Axiom is essentially reality itself. Reality has a natural order. It just is. These all fit thematically. As for the Great Will, however - 'ishi' referring to the 'philosophical will' basically implicates an active role, opposite to the supposition that "reality just is" - there is a guiding hand besides the passive order of reality. In essence, this refers to YHVH. My theory is that YHVH and the Axiom were once entirely one and the same, with YHVH (and perhaps other similar figures) being an extension or limb of the Axiom in the lower dimensions - so to speak - but something changed that saw YHVH separate from the Axiom and jealously lord over the cosmos. (Ironically, making him a Demiurge to the Axiom. The fact that the demon Demiurge himself was stated by Lucifer to be a rogue fragment of YHVH in SMT IV means that humanity has been clocking YHVH on his bullshit separation from the Axiom for a long time, via humanity's power of observation, and that things are very much 'as above, so below'.) The Axiom obviously did not care for this erroneous turn of events and has thus been throwing Messiahs at YHVH for several games now. But the reason the Great Will gets so many references and has only recently been supplanted by this idea of the Axiom is likely as a corollary to YHVH's covetous reign over the universe; He truly believed he was the one true God and asserted that he IS all of reality. Ergo, Great Will - a title matching the role and origin, mirroring the Axiom's Japanese title of 'Great Order' (more or less). Most of the games utilizing the title of Great Will are essentially either conflations of YHVH-as-the-Axiom, or the Axiom-mistaken-for-YHVH. Kagutsuchi in Nocturne may very well be the latter, but that bears some more research on my part. It also explains away the apparent retcon in Raidou vs. King Abaddon where people 'pray to the Great Will' in a Catholic church.

[@Junpeidaman190]

​@@acedianPianistthe great Will is SMT IV apocalypse YHVH

[@wjamesmci]

I like how this video just ends with “uhhhh”

[@password6681]

You guys need a podcast

[@ImperatorNocturne]

actually it was a retcon, the great will was supposed to be YHVH, it´s confirmed in RKvsKA, in which a demon says "go to the place where the people pray to the great will" and you go to the catholic church, retcon. the confusion kinda came from SMT2 where YHVH says he will be revived by the will of the universe, though that meant he is revived as long as people belive in him, aka the collective will of people. it got messy and Apocalypse really was the messiest and most fanfic like game ever, there is so much wrong with it in terms of lore i srsly wonder who made it.

[@chavaspada]

Daily reminder that Apocalypse is a what if and not canon... That's why its writing is awful

[@Ze0nite]

SMTIVA is canon

[@chavaspada]

@@Ze0nite no

[@NIHIL_EGO]

@@chavaspada Yes it is, sorry baby, everything is canon in SMT.

[@chavaspada]

@@NIHIL_EGO if everything is canon, nothing is.

[@lmhproductions8256]

In the smt 5 trailer Lucifer says that god is dead. Does that mean he and demi-fiend succeed at killing god

[@onewingedren2228]

Or Nanashi killed him in Apocalypse

[@NIHIL_EGO]

Or that they killed the YHVH of this universe.

[@rogercheetoofficial]

fun fact; in last bible 2, you actually get to fight and kill the great will

[@Junpeidaman190]

That universe was created by nakajima. Fake ass great Will

[@pedro2629]

tfw the only game in the megaten series that is the closest to beating the axiom is fucking devil survivor 2 record breaker in which you break canopus

[@andreworders7305]

5th dimension is multiple universe/timelines

[@Jack-lo5me]

When you say that stuff about ‘good’ messiahs, I don’t think it should just be the ones that KILL god... I think we should include any ending that sucks god over to such a point that it’s humanity’s victory. So yes, Aleph, Flynn, Nanashi, that one guy you mention, they still all count... But Demifiend, taking the reset, demon, or true demon, is also a successful messiah, but mostly if he does reset. SMT 1 guy counts too. He basically just fucks up every single being, law or chaos. I’m not a pro at all this, so feel free to add to the list.

[@yonker1337]

The ACKSHIUM........ why are they saying it like this?

[@PureAwesamness]

I thought Schrodinger was Seraph from the future?

[@dailydoseofvitaminc6565]

Kind of. I like this Fither but this video is probably the worst butchering of DDS2’s story I’ve ever seen. Schrodinger was Seraph from another reality that traveled to the one we play after becoming enlightened. His Brahman theory is a blatant misunderstanding of the ending. The whole point was that Brahman was not some monotheistic/false god because and instead was more similar to the Axiom in the way of that it represented the universe. The realization Seraph came to at the end was enlightenment and the loss of individualism by realization that we are all the universe.

[@PureAwesamness]

@@dailydoseofvitaminc6565 Yeah, waht they said. ^ Trying to crowbar Judeo-Christian monotheism into Hinduism uh... doesn't really work.

[@jackour8167]

He isn't. Nothing is known about schrodinger other than the fact that he can Shape shift, alter reality and is Stephen's pet cat. Some assume he's seraph from another reality. Even if that's true Another reality =/= from the future Especially when there ry concept of time is said to be narrow campered to the protagonists. And as for fither you should already know he's not good at smt at just by looking at his smt power level charts

[@PureAwesamness]

@@jackour8167 Do we know for a fact that he's Stephen's pet? I don't recall Stephen appearing in DDS.

[@jackour8167]

@@PureAwesamness I remember somewhere reading that he has a pet. It's most likely schrodinger

[@alysiaclauss7326]

But he fighted the messiah in apocalypse he still was on par with them and nanshe had defeated god at that point and still almost kill them and he could hold back to be a 3rd dimensions being and summoned them