IN THE COURTROOM: Full Metal Jacket vs. Hollow Point Ammunition

Top Wisconsin attorney gives a crash course in the basics of what you can expect sometimes from court. This is obviously not everything that you need to know, but should serve as quick introduction of the "heads I win, tails you lose" game that some prosecutors love to play. And to be clear to my prosecutor friends and the countless others who would never play these games: not all prosecutors are like this, a huge portion would never think to try this, but let's be real there are many that do.
For more information and a deeper dive, check out the channel and other videos.
To learn more about Tom Grieve, check out his bio at his law firm's website: www.grievelaw.....
#ccw #selfdefense #attorney

[@inmyimage1081]

I’m disabled thanks to a spinal cord injury. I can’t run and have significant balance issues and actually can’t stand still very long, bottom line is it wouldn’t take much for me to be in fear of “great bodily harm” if confronted by an aggressor. I hear you include it close to 100% of the time but haven’t heard it specifically addressed for say a situation where the person doesn’t have any kind of weapon but obviously has the ability to “beat me into a pulp”. So, when does “great bodily harm” rise to a point of justifying my right to use my protective device to protect myself using deadly force? BTW, subscribed after hearing you mention you have a channel on the latest USCCA video, you should call out the name of the channel or have them include it under your name in the title card.

[@Gone4Everx]

Its fair to say if you are disabled that any form of physical threat made to you is malicious and you should respond accordingly. I dont know anyone in the right state of mind who would assault someone who is disabled, therefore you can assume it would take an unstable/unreasonable person to make you feel the need to use lethal force. I say always prioritize survival, worry about whether its "legal" afterwards when you have time to worry about that.

[@D-A-1776]

If you have uscca you should drop them and switch to ccw safe or attorneys on retainer. USCCA won't represent you or help you in a self defense situation

[@midiaz1319]

If hollow point is legal to buy then there should not be an issue if it is purchased and used.

[@jamesbell7220]

Among the problems with that line of logic are the jurors who are somewhere between antagonistic against guns to no hard feelings but uninformed.

[@johncox2865]

Should isn’t IS

[@gordonallen9095]

IMO, hollow point ammo is SAFER than FMJ. Ball ammo given the caliber and grain, can theoretically go THROUGH one target hitting another that could create collateral damage. The totality of the circumstances should be the main priority other than the type of ammo used. Especially if that ammo was LEGALLY purchased.

[@1001Hobbies]

A good question for the Prosecutor who doesn't like that you used hollow points would be to ask him/her "And why do you think the Police use hollow points?" in order to illustrate their lack of knowledge of the subject matter. Feelings are not facts, and I believe only facts are desired in a court of law.

[@m444ss]

I'm no expert, but the impression I've had for several years: If DA wants to prosecute you for your self-defense firearm use, whatever ammo was in your gun will be portrayed as the most vicious ammo available, "clearly showing" that you had malicious intent from the get-go.

[@alancranford3398]

Thank you, Tom. As a prosecutor you know the game better than I ever will. I was under the impression that the prosecutor's job was obtaining convictions. To that end, prejudicing the jury against the defendant is "best practices." You brought up something I hadn't considered--non-MilSpec "military grade ammunition." What next? Will using the same ammunition that is issued by local police agencies be spun as "playing wanna-be cop?" "Silly villains shouldn't have guns and ammo, legal or not." Under bench made law, these three .38 Special loads are immoral and fattening--so should be illegal: 158 grain lead round nose--"cop killer dum-dum" nicknamed "widowmaker" 130-grain full metal jacket--"cop killer armor-piercing" and as Tom points out, "military grade" 125-grain Plus P jacketed hollow point--all stops are pulled out as the flustered prosecutor rants and raves, foaming at the mouth about how this especially deadly ammunition is "semi-magnum cop-killing armor-piercing exploding dum-dum stuff banned by the Geneva Convention" while still being "military grade" Defense attorneys have their work cut out for them. Never mind that the Geneva Convention doesn't say anything about ammunition.

[@markmonse5285]

Another damned-if-you-do/damned-if-you-don't dilemma, and makes a good case for choosing an attorney smart enough to effectively counter these issues at a trial. Potential jurors usually know squat about these things, and are more apt to believe things they've seen in movies and on TV.

[@wemcal]

Great video and great information

[@brianb9911]

Good information! Definitely makes the person carrying a CCW firearm seriously think twice (or more) about the ammunition used.

[@504Trey]

If it's legal to sell & legal to buy then it's legal to use 👌🏾

[@finngamesknudson1457]

Or carefully consider which states one travels to or through.

[@ExpatPlans365]

⁠@@finngamesknudson1457 Or reconsider what state to live in away from these BS laws that don’t even work

[@grahamfinlayson-fife73]

We saw this last year, in the Rittenhouse trial!

[@richardle7469]

That lawyer was an idiot, exploding bullet.

[@kevini4295]

I use 9mm FMJ. I carry, but only periodically. I don't want to get shot at all. Ill take my chances with my 9mm FMJ

[@KennethRisner-fz9sc]

same here

[@vilasman]

I 1st saw you on the USCCA channel and I'm binge watching your videos. For each and every video that you have asked... do we want to see them... I want to see them. On the Colion Noir video... I get that they 8th bullet was not self defense... And I get that bad guys gun jammed And bad guy was leaving the room And a prosecutor could make the argument that Colion had a responsibility to analyze all that... in a second or 2... And you can't predict a jury. So it's... a predicament

[@tsmith4338]

If someone is required, by law, to use only FMJ, and that person is forced to use their firearm in self-defense, and because it's FMJ, the bullet exits the attacker and injurs a bystander. Can both the defender and the bystander sue the government body for the consiquences?

[@marincr9348]

Hello Mr Grieve, i really like all your videos from USCCA and i just suscribed to this one as soon as i saw it, because i think it's very important to hear about real life scenarios and posible outcomes of self defense encounters and that help us out to make better decisions in case we need to defend our selves or loved ones ...(please excuse My English)..

[@evelyng-w834]

I love your videos Thomas!!

[@bob_mosavo]

Thanks, Tom 😁

[@youaregodspursuit]

Fact is that once you are finished with defending yourself others will share a coffee and without being there work to dissect what you have done. Intent shall be manifested by the circumstances connected with the offense; the sound mind of the person accused. So? You will not know until you are judged in a court if you chose the correct ammunition. You cannot predict the outcome of what others may think. Your decision to find a way to support your need to get home is always judged by others, who care less about you than the poor dead guy who made you believe you were going to die yourself. Oh, and then you get to go to civil court where sound reasoning in decisions is a myth.

[@LiveAuthenticallyDaily]

Here is my opinion that I think should be considered. If I am shooting for self defense I want max effect in as little time as possible. I also dont want my rounds hitting an unintended target because the round goes through the targets body. Thus a HP would be my go to for self defense.

[@kennylavay8492]

what the real shame is in the US are the fact if you are in a self defense shooting you probably need to hire an attorney you can not afford. If in fact it is a real self defense shooting protecting your self or family member, you as the shooter should not even have to hire an attorney period.

[@ToUchOfTisM211]

Thank you!

[@murielsteinmetz4274]

ball ammo is best if you have to shoot thru a door or window or into a vehicle

[@CinemaZiggy]

No sir, fluted would be the best.

[@Perkeletricksterservantofrher]

@@CinemaZiggy that's a marketing gimmick.

[@CinemaZiggy]

@@Perkeletricksterservantofrher Where’s your proof it’s a marketing gimmick? I can drop links to why it’s not if you want.

[@InfuzeDcyphR]

​@@CinemaZiggyFMJ/Ball is still better than hollow points for barrier penetration.

[@CinemaZiggy]

@@InfuzeDcyphR Well of course but it’s not the best of all ammo.

[@terrykeever9422]

Short but true.

[@ViaAvione]

Your thought on Eli Dicken please?

[@josephliptak]

What about 3-legged threats?

[@kingcat2004]

So, what about loading mags alternating FMJ and HP? My handgun is carried both for human and 4 legged threats, we have property with several bears on it and I am aware HP is pretty much useless around even small bear, since I use my carry gun for self defense in both situations this seemed like a good solution, wonder how it would be seen in a court if I am ever unfortunate enough to find out

[@finngamesknudson1457]

Biggest piece is to be able to explain your choices. Your story clearly demonstrates careful consideration of risks and that you are not acting with malice. Might consider having some mags of straight HP for when you go to urban areas, such as grocery shopping. Probably easier to justify one type than to have to explain both.

[@positiveanion4085]

Criminals commonly carry whatever ammo they can scrounge, so they very often have a mix of different ammo types in their gun. Cops are trained that this is the case, and may profile you as a criminal because of this. Because of this, I wouldn't do so.

[@m4sterxtater494]

NO MATTER WHAT THE PROSECUTION WILL DEMONIZE YOUR AMMO CHOICE. If its FMJ they will say "They're 'cop killer' rounds designed to penetrate armor and do as much damage as possible" if its HP they'll say "They're designed to cause inhumane damage to the target and kill as quickly as possible." TLDR: USE WHAT YOU WANT JUST BE PREPARED FOR IT TO BE SPUN THE WORST WAY POSSIBLE.

[@StoicSpeaks]

Is it true in thinking that using those frangable “rip “ rounds would fuck you up in court should you ever have to use them ? Simply due to their name ?

[@2ndchance431]

One recommendation I would make is asking a friendly cop, if you can find one in your area, what ammunition they carry in their service weapon and get some if not restricted. It could help if legal issues arise. Also, check to see if there are any restrictions where you carry.

[@elmateo77]

Actually that can also be used against you, some prosecutors will try to make out that you were some sort of vigilante because you used the same ammo/weapon that police use.

[@Perkeletricksterservantofrher]

@@elmateo77 vigilante is stigma but we need more sheepdogs.

[@evelyng-w834]

Tom, we the people, are interested in four-leg threats!

[@finngamesknudson1457]

Does anyone make soft point 9mm? Does LRN mushroom? Are either or both of those legal in the insane states (NJ)?

[@818-SIGMA]

Fmj is more lethal than hp.

[@parathings]

What about external hollow point? How does that look?

[@hawghawg381]

So who is self defense ammo made for?

[@inOZ8434]

Right?! Sht doesn't make sense, we have our rights, but if we use our rights, we get screwed....!?

[@joshprestigiacamo7551]

I would like to know more for 4 legged threats.

[@elmateo77]

(dogs, bears, mountain lions, etc). You generally want maximum penetration, so FMJ.

[@mortykatz2236]

What about plus P- hollow point

[@elmateo77]

Extreme velocity ammo that expands so fast it practically explodes inside the victim??? o.0 These prosecutors will just lie to turn anything you do against you...

[@billbbobby2889]

Thank you for trying to wake the people up.

[@diabeticzebra7104]

How are 4-legged threats different? Still need cavitation. I understand you need more penetration due to thicker skin. However they due make HP with penetration abilities as well.

[@johncox2865]

A four-legged threat might eat you. If you can’t get to it’s vitals, you might not survive. No hollow point will achieve penetration equal to FMJ.

[@bacon81]

Look at what Alaskan Guides use as bear protection. You will find that hollow points are rarely if ever use. You will find a lot of Hard Cast Lead and specially designed penetrating bullets like the underwood ammo extreme penetrator bullets are what is favored by most. With bears you will definitely want the ability to penetrate the thick hide and bones for a quick humane kill that will end the threat.

[@parathings]

What about semiwad cutter woodsman from g9?

[@AttyTomGrieve]

I do like semiwad cutter

[@parathings]

@@AttyTomGrieve I love the idea of them and would love to test them and share the results. 9x25 Dillon external hollow point looks like it should perform well too

[@robertbanks9610]

If hollow points are legal, then why would the lawyer try to rewrite the law in the courtroom?

[@livinglou7140]

To make you sound like the "evil guy with cop-killing bullets" to the jury who knows nothing about guns because anyone with half a brain was excluded from the jury selection.........

[@robertbanks9610]

@@livinglou7140 Good point,

[@nicklewis7291]

You said if I'm interested in 4 legged threats, say so in the comments. I am. It might not be what most people are interested in in but, I'm interested, in the legal aspect of defending yourself against an animal attack. What charges might someone face if the animal is not in season, or not in a place where hunting is allowed, or the defender doesn't have hunting license. I don't hate snakes but, I've shot several that were poisonous and very likely to bite. Those aren't 4 legged but, there's bears and moose and bison that attack at times, mostly only when provokes. If you reckon your audience would be interested, that might make a good video topic.

[@JaysClubHouse]

@1:32 I’m talking 4 leg threats- hollow point still wins

[@Slime9ineDu2ce]

Not true.. fmj wins

[@livinglou7140]

Have you actually seen this succeed as an argument in court where having hollow points tipped the case against someone?

[@504Trey]

If it's legal to sell & legal to buy then it's legal to use 👌🏾

[@TheWalterKurtz]

Mr prosecutor tried to roast Rittenhouse for either type of ammo. As Shakespeare said; Well. We all know what he said.

[@JustinDavito]

How can we, if anything, help change the legal system so these dumb arguments cannot be used against someone who defended themselves or others from a 2 legged threat?

[@elmateo77]

The best way is not trying to wiggle out of jury duty in self defense cases, I know it sucks but one knowledgeable person can sway the entire jury just by giving them basic information that the prosecutor may have tried to hide. And of course vote for judges and politicians who support gun owners.

[@user-jz9qe4eh5b]

Read Constitution they shall not infringe

[@LowIQinHQ]

JHP doesn’t kill cops. speed does.

[@johncox2865]

Tom, should I be involved in a self-defense shooting, will shot placement be an issue in court?

[@AttyTomGrieve]

Everything is an issue, in court, but I am adding this to my Attorney Answers question list. Stay tuned!

[@chrissmalley83]

"FMJ is what the military uses in war! There is no reason for a civilian to have such a thing!" "Hollow point ammunition is so deadly, it is not even allowed in war! How can we allow civilians to have ammunition more deadly than what the military uses?" There is no size or shape of bullet that a prosecutor will not make a "compelling" argument against. Just know why you are carrying what you are carrying to make a cogent argument in defense.

[@robertbanks9610]

And a 9mm can blow a lung right out of the body.

[@richardle7469]

Wtf.. would it better to you a damn bow and arrow? Or crossbow bolt? What the hell difference... that guy tried to kill me! Self defense

[@elmateo77]

Are you sure he wanted to kill you? Maybe he just wanted to beat you up. Sometimes you just have to take a beating. That's an actual argument made by a prosecutor in the Rittenhouse case. These people are mentally sick.

[@504Trey]

They just be in the courtroom making up laws on the fly 🤣🤣🤣 Defendant: but ya honor since when were self defense ammo considered illegal?? Judge: SINCE NOW!! GUILTY!!! Defendant: 😢

[@fanbatcher]

The use of a shotgun in a self defense scenario would be an even greater challenge to defend in court due to its inherent inaccuracy and “overkill” factor.

[@brandonrobertson6327]

It's comical to say, "Laws been pass to allow you to carry concealed". 2nd Bill of Rights says, "Shall not be infringed"...... And this is another thing. The first ten is the Bill of Rights. The so called 11th Amendment is actually the 1st Amendment. When the Colonies agreed to become states, then constituted the US Constitution, the idea is that this Constitution is the bedrock of the Rule of Law. Let me explain. If the government/enough states wanted to change the 1st Amendment to change the protections of free speech, even the most liberal state would be going crazy to keep it from happening (even though theae states would live to silence conservatives). Now, the 2nd is always under attack but why? Is it any less than the 1st? How about the 4th? Is it ok for the government to search your personal papers and home without a warrant? You would say NO, but some states, federal, and local governments want to change the 2nd..... So, the first ten was agreed by the original states and all other states that joined the union had to agree to the Bill of Rights. Now, the 11th on the states can be ratify. That means they can add, delete, or change when a super majority agree. A 2/3 vote of the states have to agree. With that said, even if you have 49 of 50 say, "Let's change the 2nd, let's get rid of it all together". It can not happen. You may ask why? The answer is the same, it is the original Bill of Rights that show the limits of our governments (fed, state, & local). And you may disagree, but put that logic back ro the 1st Bill of Rights, can they just cancel your FREE SPEECH?..... I say HELL NO.

[@LJR_LIMITED]

so, whats more dangerous, a hollow point to the vest, or a full metal jacket to the vest? the argument is stupid. NJ even tries to label polymer tip ammo, such as Hornady Critical Defense, as hollow points. "nj-carry-licensed-security-guard-arrested-so-called-hollowpoint-ammo"