Augustine and the Early Church

[@RESISTENCIAPOLOGETICA]

Hello, Pastor James White, my name is Marcos Lopez, and I currently live in the United States, but I am from São Paulo, Brazil. I want to congratulate you for being one of the only apologist pastors to expose Ken Wilson's errors. I also have a channel for reformed apologetics, but in Portuguese. Big hug, Marcos Lopez - Apologetic Resistance

[@MrJsteed2009]

Several really good points/thoughts; I'm glad you went long!

[@princeofpeaceproductions3506]

Augustine and his stoic gnostic philosophy has done more damage to the church than any other

[@koraegis]

Nope

[@travissharon1536]

This is possibly the most enjoyable video Ive seen from James White. I know deep in my soul that Calvinism has bad fruit, but I dont think it is truly anti-gospel until it reaches hyper consistency. I wish I could just leave this debate alone, because I dont want to fall off the otherside of the narrow path avoiding what I see as the serious errors in Calvinism.

[@DjSostre7]

Are you still around? Why do I see you everywhere concerning this? All you do is find videos on Calvinism and leave your dung on each one.

[@KevinSmile]

This was very well put

[@jalapeno.tabasco]

what errors in Calvinism? and what is the correct answer to them?

[@travissharon1536]

@jalapeno.tabasco I think Calvinism dismisses passages in God's word. Salvation in the Bible clearly seems to be contingent on each person accepting God's gift of salvation. As far as fixing people should live life while unceasingly striving to find the truth of God. I still pray for God to show me where I'm in error and/or have room to grow in Christ. I remain open to Calvinism being right and pray on that specifically, but I have yet to be shown explanations for the passages that conteadict Calvinism that satisfy my need for logical consistency in the Bible.

[@jalapeno.tabasco]

>Salvation in the Bible clearly seems to be contingent on each person accepting God's gift of salvation.

[@marcolucius5083]

Operato is of course the valid one as it is the office that is handed down. The concern about disposition of the ordainer is of course a "human condition" and all will have an issue to some degree that could be called on for invalidity.

[@blank-964]

Good stuff

[@pierreschiffer3180]

Can anyone tell me what this man means by Augustine's doctrine of grace, which is supposed to be Reformed? Maybe some examples of this doctrine? For I know what the good Bishop teaches regarding justification and salvation and it is contrary to 'Sola Fide' and 'perseverance of the saints' and such.

[@robreich6881]

The Reformed term “doctrine of grace” isn’t referring to justification. It’s referring to the idea of efficacious grace (grace that itself grants the will to receive it) and predestination, both things Augustine taught.

[@pierreschiffer3180]

@@robreich6881 Thank you, Rob: I really should be looking into these two issues more deeply. I know that many groups of people claim Augustine, all to support their own doctrines and ideas. We cannot do that. We can always find something in anyone - eg Augustine or whoever else - that appeals to us and therefore we teach it and we claim the man - eg Augustine - is one of ours. Anyone can do that with any doctrine the good bishop ever taught, but this is not right. Augustine did not compose his own gospel message, but rather received the Gospel from the Catholic Church. To pick and choose among his teachings and to claim him for that is objective falsehood. To quote Augustine himself: "if you pick from a source you are not following the source: you are the source".

[@KristiLEvans1]

@@pierreschiffer3180 but you just claimed Augustine for a Roman Catholic Church that Augustine would NOT recognize, doctrinally.

[@KristiLEvans1]

@@pierreschiffer3180 moreover, White, himself, says that saying one is reformed because of Augustine, or Zwingli, or Calvin, or anyone else - that’s not sufficient. White says THE SAME thing you just said. The source is Scripture, however, not a constantly evolving earthly church body.

[@pierreschiffer3180]

@@KristiLEvans1 No, Kristi: Augustine himself claimed to be Catholic: he was a Catholic bishop, remember? You should focus on the Gospel: Augustine does not teach sola fide and perseverance of the saints and such, but quite the contrary: the man is Catholic. The source is Scripture, you write: then how come your source is your personal understanding of Scripture?? You follow Kristi, Kristi, which is exactly opposite to following Jesus. Read the early Church on separation and heresy and its eternal meaning, Kristi.

[@riverjao]

Does anyone blatantly, explicitly teach contrary to baptismal regeneration anywhere in the early Church? Does anyone come out and teach against it? I’m genuinely interested 👍

[@doubtingthomas9117]

None that I’m aware of.

[@DF_UniatePapist]

Nope

[@not_milk]

Pretty much everyone appears to be for it until at least the medieval period to my knowledge. At the very least, the first 3-4 centuries of the church, every writer is unanimously for it.

[@Henry._Jones]

When White talks about a debate coming up in August against a well-known atheist . . . who was he talking about? Did that debate happen?

[@Henry._Jones]

@E Y Ah, yes.- that's right. I remember posting this question some months back -before hearing about that, and then a few weeks back I finally heard about the Dillahunty bit falling through. I am surprised that White was willing to debate Dillahunty, and disappointed that it didn't happen. I hope they can reschedule it sometime.

[@jorgealba3818]

There are so many wrong ideas and random thoughts in this guy. Oxford's scholars have a lot of studies related to the Gnostic influences Agustin got from that early christian sect. Ken Wilson's work was basically a compilation of those dozens of scholars ,who already identified beyond any shadow of doubt, what is evident, Augustin incorporated gnostic and neo platonic concepts to his teachings. He's just ignorant of what is already a reality, well stablished among Patristic's scholars.

[@Vae07]

Awesome more debates coming!!!

[@Ghest735]

11:43

[@Vae07]

Great objective unbiased review of church history from White

[@MrEvoXI]

So if Augustine knew Greek and Hebrew he would of been a reformed baptist?

[@1689solas]

Precisely.

[@HarrisonBrincku]

Not even close.

[@MrEvoXI]

Dylan 😂😂😂😂😂

[@Vae07]

Is that what he said? Sheesh

[@KristiLEvans1]

would HAVE

[@riverjao]

Can Dr. White or anyone else show where baptismal regeneration or the Eucharist were not universally taught? No. And by Eucharist I mean something along the lines of "real presence" and that it was NOT just symbolic. I don't mean "transubstantiation" per se.

[@kylecityy]

yes, yes we can

[@riverjao]

@@kylecityy By all means...

[@riverjao]

@@kylecityy I'm waiting...

[@kylecityy]

@@riverjao i answered, check mwssage above

[@kylecityy]

@Jordan Orick hello, would you want to have a discussion on this still?

[@riverjao]

Has anyone been more influenced by philosophy and paganism than Augustine was?

[@robreich6881]

Pelagius

[@riverjao]

@@robreich6881 hahaha!!!

[@jalapeno.tabasco]

yeah, you libertarian free will is pagan philosophy

[@fruit-filledolivetree5056]

"The true image of the Hebrew is Judas Iscariot, who sells the Lord for silver. The Jew can never understand the Scriptures and forever will bear the guilt for the death of Jesus." -St Augustine

[@michaelsanders7484]

Kinda racist.

[@Coins1985]

....and yet the entire time, Augustine is offering the sacrifice of the Eucharist as a bishop :) Unreal...

[@riverjao]

And praying to the Saints; and praying for the deceased believers; and many other Catholic/historically Christian doctrines.

[@nazinas21]

Is this Foreal?! Where can I get this info?

[@thomasglass9491]

@Jordan Orick Which are hereticals, and not all Christians believe and practice that.

[@riverjao]

I have to admit that I’m glad that in this video Dr. White didn’t revise history again and pretend that Augustine didn’t “really” but into purgatory and the communion of the Saints; trying to say as he usually does that he just sort of gave them a nod because of his dying mother. The fact is: like everyone else at the time in the West: he was Catholic.

[@kylecityy]

a catholic does not mean roman catholicism. the historical meaning wasnt "adherent to roman bishop and roman dogmas" it was simply meant as "universal" which all protestants affirm

[@brianm.9451]

Did White just argue for the Donatist? Oh that’s right, Baptist’s are all Donatist anyways.

[@daric_]

How so?

[@TheGeorgeology]

No, he was saying that the Donatist argument pushed him to take up some problematic teachings

[@gabrielbridges9709]

How can you read the church fathers and be a baptist. The fathers are not Roman Catholic don’t get me wrong but almost done to a person and universally the fathers believe in baptismal regeneration and a physical presence in the Eucharist not just 4th century Christian’s but poly carp clearly states baptism is for the remission of sins as well as Ignatius, ireaneus, Justin Martyr and the list goes on and on. Let alone the Bible teaches clearly baptismal regeneration and baptismal efficacy.

[@riverjao]

I’ve not met a Catholic yet who believes that a Buddhist baptism of a Christian would be valid 🤦‍♂️

[@robreich6881]

Who cares?

[@riverjao]

@@robreich6881 apparently you.

[@3leon306]

Denim sport coat? Mock turtle neck? I’m struggling to find a point to his odd view of church history ... except of course the jacket which is itself an abnegation of reason. I’m thankful reformed seminary showed me the way home to Rome ... ipsum esse subsistens. It seems that his insight into Greek philosophy like many Calvinists is from a dust jacket paraphrase

[@Coins1985]

I was Reformed and joined the Church recently as well, for similar reasons

[@Crow44195]

I find it amusing your offense is so deep you critize his appearance and not his argument. One can read a children's bible and come to the conclusion the Catholic church is paganized, practices idolatry, perverted. Sola scriptura...soluschristus

[@3leon306]

@@Crow44195 within one sentence, you resort to and seek refuge in programmed anti-Catholic attack, “Paganism!” … “whore of Babylon!” … “works-based salvation!” … “synergist!” These are bankrupt, meaningless charges rooted in the traditions of man (I.e., Luther, sola scriptura, Calvin) … White is a mean-spirited clown who pays his bills and mortgage by keeping afloat his attacks and controversy. Get Exodus 3:14 wrong and embrace the heretic-Nominalist Occam as Luther did you’ll end up in dangerous area … also, re-read Romans to get faith and obedience correct!

[@Crow44195]

@@3leon306 I'm no Calvinist and I'm definitely no Lutheran. You would be closer to Luther than I. He just wanted to reform the Catholic church. Like most Catholics I was born Catholic. Then after coming to the knowledge of Christ and reading the Word of God for myself I came to my own conclusions. Living in a Catholic family, living in a Catholic area, I can see the superstition, idolatry, and icon worship. So you aren't speaking with someone who experienced it through a book. The "Church" is not the true bride of Christ, she has the blood of myrtar on her hands and innocent children.

[@3leon306]

@@Crow44195 given your upbringing, you should know better. I’m sure I could match your history of discontent and disillusion point for point … only I came from staunchly Protestant circles full of lies, deceit, and chaos. the Catholic Church has no monopoly on hypocrisy and sin.

[@riverjao]

Way to completely misrepresent Origen and everyone else who interprets the OT in the same way that the apostles did 🤦‍♂️

[@thomasglass9491]

Really Origen? The heretical Origen? Please don’t compare him with the apostles. The allegorical interpretation is a heresy.

[@fruit-filledolivetree5056]

I’m a devout believer and I do not trust in Augustine as he was anti-Semitic; something that I don’t believe is possible when being filled with the spirit (Read Romans 11). Here is a direct quote from Augustine ⬇️ "The true image of the Hebrew is Judas Iscariot, who sells the Lord for silver. The Jew can never understand the Scriptures and forever will bear the guilt for the death of Jesus." -St Augustine

[@robreich6881]

I mean, Jesus called Jews who reject him children of Satan, so maybe you should think about what “Jew” means in a post 1st century context (ie a rejector of Christ with Jewish DNA).

[@wojak91]

Ah yes, so wise to pronounce eternal condemnation on someone who lived 1600 years ago that was clearly a believer in the Lord, for having imperfections. I guess you're sinless, then? Watch yourself.

[@John14Verse6]

Is the book of Esther not about being born for an exact moment? “Then Mordecai commanded to answer Esther, Think not with thyself that thou shalt escape in the king's house, more than all the Jews. For if thou altogether holdest thy peace at this time, then shall there enlargement and deliverance arise to the Jews from another place; but thou and thy father's house shall be destroyed: and who knoweth whether thou art come to the kingdom for such a time as this?” (Esther 4:13-14, KJV)