Augustine, Zosimus, and Trent Horn

We went in depth in our response to Trent Horn on the subject of Augustine’s allegedly saying, “Rome has spoken, the case is closed.” (including looking at the “I would not believe the gospel except for the testimony of the Catholic Church” quote).
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#response #history

[@firingallcylinders2949]

I appreciate your videos Dr. White. I work at a Catholic School and you've helped me ground my Reformed Faith. So I can state clearly why I'm a Protestant.

[@thesirevn334]

That's awesome

[@joshhigdon4951]

That's so awesome!

[@ManlyServant]

just sayin,both orthodoxy and catholics need to be REFORMED,no salvation come from circumcise,works of law,pope,etc,etc,It is Faith only,Grace Only ❤️✝️

[@SuperrBoyful]

@@ManlyServant Don’t rely on James White to give you false assurance towards your salvation. He was eradicated in almost every Catholic apologetic debate. Just watch his debate with Patrick Madrid on the protestant doctrine of sola scriptura. Madrid destroyed the entire protestant doctrine of sola scriptura within the first hour. Both the Catholic Church & Eastern Orthodoxy are aligned with the worship of Early Christianity. You should focus on reading early Christianity and the post-apostolic Christians. All of the writings point directly to the apostles & their writings on the early Catholic Church. One obvious reason why protestant doctrine is wrong is that there are over 47,000 different sects under protestantism with different interpretations of scripture and salvation. We are called to be only One Body in Christ. Jesus specifically gave His authority to His apostles who left us One Church. Those writings of our early Church fathers need to be read by every Christian to understand how the apostles were worshipping Jesus after His death. Specifically when there was no bible. Remember, the bible was not canonized until 300 years AD (by the Church). There was only one form of worship, One Church for the first 1500 years AD, until the Reformation and Martin Luthers rebellion from the Church. The ideology of “Sola Scriptura” or “Bible alone” was created during this reformation. Please do your research on the early history of Christianity, starting with the writings of the Early Church fathers, as every Christian is called to do. Colossians 1:24 “Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church.”

[@StAnthonyPaduaRadTrad]

Why work at a Catholic school when you believe the Protestant reformed faith?

[@ogmakefirefiregood]

Love your show Dr. White, thanks for your scholarship.

[@mitchellc4]

The gospel is the GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM! Repent and believe the gospel! Follow Jesus’ teachings! Jesus is going to return and set up the kingdom of God ON THE EARTH! God’s government ON THE EARTH! The Messiah will resurrect his people! The destiny of the Messiah and his people is to be ON THE EARTH! The renewed restored earth! God also dwelling with them! Rev 21 Jesus said the Father is the only true God! John 17 3 And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.

[@brandonbogert7848]

What does this verse have to do with the 1st comment?

[@RockGTA]

I want so much a debate between James White and the guys from Reason & Theology.

[@SuperrBoyful]

Frankly, he hasn’t been very convincing when debating Catholic apologists, I don’t think he’ll do that.

[@amichiganblackman3200]

@@SuperrBoyful he's had over 170 moderated debates...you sound ridiculous, sir.

[@SuperrBoyful]

@@amichiganblackman3200 He is unconvincing in every Catholic debate because he’s defending a false doctrine under 47,000+ different protestant sects.

[@BRNRDNCK]

@@SuperrBoyful Anybody who still thinks there are thousands of Protestant denominations has been fully brainwashed by the Catholic Church. That’s been debunked dozens of times for literally decades. Go home.

[@SuperrBoyful]

@@BRNRDNCK You clearly don’t do any research upon your own doctrine. The Center for Global Christianity at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary, which is evangelical Protestant, estimates that there are currently 47,000 denominations. This survey relies upon the same methodology as the World Christian Encyclopedia, which it apparently deems credible. And, if you don’t consider Gordon-Conwell very authoritative, keep in mind that they are utilized as a primary source by the Pew Research Center, which pretty much is the gold standard for social science research in the United States.

[@isaacleillhikar4566]

Awesome.

[@mitchellc4]

The gospel is the GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM! Repent and believe the gospel! Follow Jesus’ teachings! Jesus is going to return and set up the kingdom of God ON THE EARTH! God’s government ON THE EARTH! The Messiah will resurrect his people! The destiny of the Messiah and his people is to be ON THE EARTH! The renewed restored earth! God also dwelling with them! Rev 21 Jesus said the Father is the only true God! John 17 3 And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.

[@ManlyServant]

@@mitchellc4 Polycarp,Student of John the Apostle believed that jesus is God,There is no need to Spam your "Interpretation" right here,cheap modern interprestation,Go and Learn some history,trinitarian can call Father as The Only God all the day,Because his Essence

[@mitchellc4]

@@ManlyServant Use scripture not other sources Jesus has a God You can’t be Almighty God and have a God Who is Jesus repeatedly referring to as “my God”? Rev 3 12 He who conquers, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God; never shall he go out of it, and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem which comes down from my God out of heaven, and my own new name. Who is Peter and Paul referring to as “the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ”? Rom 15 6 that together you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Cor 1 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort, 2 Cor 11 31 The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, he who is blessed for ever, knows that I do not lie. Eph 1 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 1 Pet 1 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

[@ManlyServant]

@@mitchellc4 Read Hebrew 1:8, Trinitarian can say that God have God all the day...

[@mitchellc4]

@@ManlyServant God has a God? That’s your view of what scripture teaches God has a God? No God has called humans “god” in an honorific sense multiple times in scripture That doesn’t mean they are GOD Jesus even references this “ye are gods” Heb 1:8 is quoting Psalm 45 about a Davidic king, possibly Solomon, was he God too??? It is also applied to Jesus the ultimate Davidic king Jesus has a God The Father doesn’t have a God You can’t be God Almighty and have a God

[@alt-monarchist]

Okay.... when are you going to debate Jay Dyer??

[@Jimmy-iy9pl]

Jay is a sperg. I'm not even a fan of James White, but why would he ever stoop that low? If you want to see Dyer get whooped by a Calvinist, that already happened a long time ago.

[@alt-monarchist]

@@Jimmy-iy9pl Jay is not a Sperg. He is able to destroy all of his opponents with reason and Logic. He destroyed that young kid calvinist punk.

[@mitchellc4]

The gospel is the GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM! Repent and believe the gospel! Follow Jesus’ teachings! Jesus is going to return and set up the kingdom of God ON THE EARTH! God’s government ON THE EARTH! The Messiah will resurrect his people! The destiny of the Messiah and his people is to be ON THE EARTH! The renewed restored earth! God also dwelling with them! Rev 21 Jesus said the Father is the only true God! John 17 3 And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.

[@shooterdownunder]

@@alt-monarchist how about you look up Jay Dyer exposed and see what a fraud he is.

[@alt-monarchist]

@@shooterdownunder LOL....I watched it. It's easily debunked garbage

[@MajorasTime]

Trent Horn, Robert Sungenis and the guys from Reason & Theology have been looking to have a debate with you for a long time now yet you have been ignoring their requests. Why is that when those folks are extremely respectful and polite? There's no reason for you to decline their offers while continuing to criticize Catholicism. Or perhaps you have realized that those 30 year old anti-catholic arguments have been long refuted and no longer works in our modern time. I'll pray for you James White.

[@protestantwarrior1516]

don't make me laugh, he's been debating them for years.

[@ManlyServant]

@@protestantwarrior1516 true

[@hymnsake]

Nope. He flew to Australia and was in the same city as Robert Sungenis. Sent a request well in advance to setup up a debate; they never responded. You can disagree but don’t delude yourself about Protestant’s willingness to debate

[@mitchellc4]

The gospel is the GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM! Repent and believe the gospel! Follow Jesus’ teachings! Jesus is going to return and set up the kingdom of God ON THE EARTH! God’s government ON THE EARTH! The Messiah will resurrect his people! The destiny of the Messiah and his people is to be ON THE EARTH! The renewed restored earth! God also dwelling with them! Rev 21 Jesus said the Father is the only true God! John 17 3 And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.

[@ManlyServant]

@@hymnsake really,James white flew to Australia just to confront him?

[@TheCASSMAN777]

Augustine said the eucharist was the true presence countless times The bread which you see on the altar is, sanctified by the word of God, the body of Christ; that chalice, or rather what is contained in the chalice, is, sanctified by the word of God, the blood of Christ. {Sermo 227; on p.377} Christ bore Himself in His hands, when He offered His body saying: “this is my body.” {Enarr. in Ps. 33 Sermo 1, 10; on p.377} Nobody eats this flesh without previously adoring it. {Enarr. in Ps. 98, 9; on p.387} [Referring to the sacrifice of Melchizedek (Gen 14:18 ff.)] The sacrifice appeared for the first time there which is now offered to God by Christians throughout the whole world. {City of God, 16, 22; on p.403} Christ is both the priest, offering Himself, and Himself the Victim. He willed that the sacramental sign of this should be the daily sacrifice of the Church. {Ibid, 10, 20; on p.99} He took flesh from the flesh of Mary . . . and gave us the same flesh to be eaten unto salvation . . . we do sin by not adoring. {Explanations of the Psalms, 98, 9; on p.20} Not all bread, but only that which receives the blessing of Christ, becomes Christ’s body. {Ibid., 234, 2; on p.31} What you see is the bread and the chalice . . . But what your faith obliges you to accept is that the bread is the Body of Christ and the chalice the Blood of Christ. {Ibid., 272; on p.32} Not only is no one forbidden to take as food the Blood of this Sacrifice, rather, all who wish to possess life are exhorted to drink thereof. {Questions of the Hepateuch, 3, 57; on p.134} The Sacrifice of our times is the Body and Blood of the Priest Himself . . . Recognize then in the Bread what hung upon the tree; in the chalice what flowed from His side. {Sermo iii. 1-2; on p.62} The Blood they had previously shed they afterwards drank. {Mai 26, 2; 86, 3; on p.64} Eat Christ, then; though eaten He yet lives, for when slain He rose from the dead. Nor do we divide Him into parts when we eat Him: though indeed this is done in the Sacrament, as the faithful well know when they eat the Flesh of Christ, for each receives his part, hence are those parts called graces. Yet though thus eaten in parts He remains whole and entire; eaten in parts in the Sacrament, He remains whole and entire in Heaven. {Mai 129, 1; cf. Sermon 131; on p.65} Out of hatred of Christ the crowd there shed Cyprian’s blood, but today a reverential multitude gathers to drink the Blood of Christ . . . this altar . . . whereon a Sacrifice is offered to God . . . {Sermo 310, 2; cf. City of God, 8, 27, 1; on p.65} He took into His hands what the faithful understand; He in some sort bore Himself when He said: This is My Body. {Enarr. 1, 10 on Ps. 33; on p.65} The very first heresy was formulated when men said: “this saying is hard and who can bear it [Jn 6:60]?” {Enarr. 1, 23 on Ps. 54; on p.66}

[@Athabrose]

You are correct. Folks like to co opt St Augustine and ignore certain parts.

[@mitchellc4]

The gospel is the GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM! Repent and believe the gospel! Follow Jesus’ teachings! Jesus is going to return and set up the kingdom of God ON THE EARTH! God’s government ON THE EARTH! The Messiah will resurrect his people! The destiny of the Messiah and his people is to be ON THE EARTH! The renewed restored earth! God also dwelling with them! Rev 21 Jesus said the Father is the only true God! John 17 3 And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.

[@johnno.]

A load of quote mining and reading into the fathers or church babies the doctrines of Rome which have no claim to history when taken context. John Calvin quotes Augustine 400 times in the institutes both believed in a wild view on predestination yet you wouldn't say Augustine was a calvinist This is ultimately why the gospel is the only truth that we should base all things on because if we don't them we get complete out of context missreadings of what some dudes said and not what is God breathed revelation Roman Catholics are not Christian it's all in the name and I see protestants evanglising spreading the Kingdom even being more ecumenical to Roman Catholics in the church even though i disagree the point is you Alll claim to be the predesseors of a tradition that stemmed from the very first apostles of Jesus Christ and yet instead of preaching him you preach traditions, Mary and attack sola scriptura. You are literally m uslims

[@KristiLEvans1]

Augustine believed that the body of Christ was present with the Father. He spells this out multiple times in letters, during the Arian crisis.

[@KristiLEvans1]

@@johnno. well said.

[@aadschram5877]

In his book Confessiones St. Augustine did not use the word `christian` but `catholic christian` (christianus catholicus).

[@RussianBot4Christ]

And Protestants use the word catholic too. Because catholic means universal. Again, define "catholic" by Augustine's views of catholic, not modern revised RCC views of "catholic"

[@RussianBot4Christ]

​@@MountieHoo1105 If you find a bunch of dogmas that Augustine agreed with, then you'll also find a bunch he disagreed with. By your own dogmas, Augustine is a failure and is not united with you. That is the nature of those dogmas, which are your rules, not ours. If you go and read Augustine, Athanasius, Ignatius, Irenaeus, plain readings of the texts deny core Roman dogma. You cant function by your rules. You are not united with the church fathers. You lie about their theology and there be no unity with lairs who not only pervert history but command others like me to do so for the sake of their fake hegemony.

[@firingallcylinders2949]

@@RussianBot4Christ All Catholics ever do is appeal to authority. Anytime I question their doctrine their only response is usually something along the lines of "Well its what was taught for 1500 years so it can't be wrong"

[@RussianBot4Christ]

​@@MountieHoo1105 "Remove the Dogmas"? Remove the Dogmas! Hahahaha We can't "remove dogmas" from the discussion of a Roman church which takes joyous pride in being totalizing and centralizing in its truth claims. That's absurd. As a recognition that we are now moving past your beliefs to mine: I would have to say that the Church is always visible to God, who is the authority that ultimately matters in all things. The "invisible church" is always a misnomer, because it is simply the view of flawed humanity. The Church is part of the visible grace of God, which always being displayed to all men. The church always displays visible salvific grace and common grace through Christ, while God through all good things visibly displays common grace. The church therefore can be distinguished by being marked by the salvific grace of God. Another way to say the salvific grace of God is to say the body and blood of Christ, which is salvation. Salvation comes through Christ's body and blood being a substitutionary atonement for sin. Another way that the body of Christ saves is through Christ's immortal resurrection, which is the resurrection of the saved. The church is biblically and accurately the "Body of Christ". The church is invisible only in the sense that we don't see the grace of God perfectly, until the saved are raised as exclusively immortal and exclusively incorruptible. We only "see in part" right now. No, no Christian was tasked with responsibility to see in full. That's not biblical. The Scriptures contains a good summary of dogmas which are crucial to salvation, and the Church, overstepping its bounds, cannot go beyond what is written. These other things can certainly be a discussion, but to believe that, for example, a belief in sinless perfection of Mary is crucial to salvation is not only not found in the scriptures, but it not found by the church fathers either. It is out of the bounds of dogmatic interpretation.

[@RussianBot4Christ]

​@@firingallcylinders2949 It always comes down to sola ecclesia, even though they want to deny that in principle. The scriptures must be reinterpreted by them, and the traditions must be reinterpreted by them. Everything is under the one voice of the totalizing church. Funnily enough, their apologists have found freedom in deciding, by themselves, what are official historical pronouncements from the church, and what are not. So in the end, they now differ among themselves of what the church has said and what the church has not said, and the totalizing human experiment has failed. They are still not united, because they cant agree on what the church they are united under has said.

[@colman_s]

"For my part, I should not believe the gospel except is moved by the authority of the Catholic Church." St. Augustine, Against the Fundamental Epistle of Manichaeus, Ch. 5

[@nick9264]

You didn’t even listen to his presentation.

[@RussianBot4Christ]

Define "authority", define and parameterize "move", define "Catholic Church" through the definition that Augustine would have recognized, not through the redefinitions of the RCC.

[@johnvitelli3862]

@@RussianBot4Christ the Catholic Church and the Roman Catholic Church are the same thing go look at the Council of Nicaea hosted by Constantine where the Nicene Creed came “I believe in one holy Catholic and apostolic church . Augustine said the Nicene Creed thousands of times but Augustine would have Martin Luther and the reformation a bunch of heretics that’s for sure .

[@johnvitelli3862]

@@RussianBot4Christ would have called Luther my bad

[@RussianBot4Christ]

@@johnvitelli3862 "I believe in one holy Catholic and apostolic church." Um... me too. Luther did too. Calvin did too. Again, you fail to define "apostolic church" or "Catholic church" how Augustine defined it as. You use the modern and foreign RCC definition and apply it to church fathers who would of thought of you as wrong on many doctrines and in many areas. "Augustine said the Nicene Creed thousands of times but Augustine would have Martin Luther and the reformation a bunch of heretics that’s for sure." I believe in the Nicene Creed. Luther did. Calvin did. All denominations of protestants believe in the Nicene Creed. I'm not sure what beliefs Augustine would accuse Luther of Heresy around. If the Nicene Creed was anything to go off of, then Luther would be seen as more centrally orthodox than the RCC at that point by Augustine.

[@TheCASSMAN777]

Yeah James White is completley butchering Augustine's words. Augustine is not denying that the eucharist is not Christ's body and blood. When Augustine said that Christ's body. When Augustine said that the risen CHrist can't be consumed, he is saying that we can't chop Jesus into pieces. Thats not what the Catholic Church teaches. We don't chop Jesus into pieces, the eucharist transforms into the whole body, blood, soul and divinity. And later White says Augustine said it was spiritual, but he is reading his reformed theology into the text. He is not saying that Jesus is only spiritually present, he is saying that his spirit is ALSO present. Catholics believe you receive is body, blood, SOUL and divinity.

[@mitchellc4]

The gospel is the GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM! Repent and believe the gospel! Follow Jesus’ teachings! Jesus is going to return and set up the kingdom of God ON THE EARTH! God’s government ON THE EARTH! The Messiah will resurrect his people! The destiny of the Messiah and his people is to be ON THE EARTH! The renewed restored earth! God also dwelling with them! Rev 21 Jesus said the Father is the only true God! John 17 3 And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.

[@TheCASSMAN777]

@@mitchellc4 yes i believe the Gospel, thank you

[@Xenotypal]

@@TheCASSMAN777 idk man those words sounded like a spiritual only communion to me. perhaps you are reading into the text.

[@TheCASSMAN777]

@@Xenotypal No its just bad confirmation bias. Augustine has said that communion is the body and blood of Christ countless times.

[@Xenotypal]

@@TheCASSMAN777 can you quote me a place where he says it's the PHYSICAL body and blood in a literal sense?

[@johnvitelli3862]

There is nothing more serious than the sacrilege of schism because their is NO just cause for severing the unity of the church .- ST Augustine treatise on Baptism against the Donatists bk 5, chapter 1 AD 400 . St Augustine would not agree with you Mr. White you can spin it like a lawyer but why don’t you go debate the Reason and Theology guys instead of bragging about a debate with a Catholic Priest?

[@ConciseCabbage]

And yet you (Catholics) consider the Orthodox to have valid sacraments. I suppose not all schism is bad after all.

[@bknooga]

@@ConciseCabbage Do you even understand what makes Orthodox holy orders and therefor sacraments valid?

[@RussianBot4Christ]

Oh no, White didn't debate your particular guys, that means White is very scared. Got em!

[@johnvitelli3862]

@@ConciseCabbage you can have sacraments not valid outside the church that’s why it’s called the great schism here is what Augustine said www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/ecumenism/nonsalus.htm read what Augustine said 430 AD no they are outside the church .

[@johnvitelli3862]

@@RussianBot4Christ the Reason and Theology guys sent over invitations from as far as a year ago yes Mr. White is backing down cowardly.

[@IosifStalin2]

God took all the trouble to give hints of his intentions in the Hebrew Scriptures, which the Jews inexplicably misread, then took all the trouble to burst through the fabric of Space-Time to manifest himself and sacrifice himself......and for all his efforts to Save people from Eternal (ETERNAL!!!) punishment, Catholics and Protestants are at loggerheads, smugly denigrating one another. Bravo God!! I think I can do better. I am sure I can do better. At least I can write a better story.

[@mitchellc4]

The gospel is the GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM! Repent and believe the gospel! Follow Jesus’ teachings! Jesus is going to return and set up the kingdom of God ON THE EARTH! God’s government ON THE EARTH! The Messiah will resurrect his people! The destiny of the Messiah and his people is to be ON THE EARTH! The renewed restored earth! God also dwelling with them! Rev 21 Jesus said the Father is the only true God! John 17 3 And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.

[@mitchellc4]

The gospel is the GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM! Repent and believe the gospel! Follow Jesus’ teachings! Jesus is going to return and set up the kingdom of God ON THE EARTH! God’s government ON THE EARTH! The Messiah will resurrect his people! The destiny of the Messiah and his people is to be ON THE EARTH! The renewed restored earth! God also dwelling with them! Rev 21 Jesus said the Father is the only true God! John 17 3 And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.

[@aparadaeseria8684]

You keep bothering people with that. I have a sugestion to you: find out what the word 'son' means in the context of the bible. Only come back after you have learned that single piece of information. If after you have learned that you still choose to keep bothering people, you will be considered an enemy of Christ and there will be consequences.

[@mitchellc4]

@@aparadaeseria8684 Is the Son of David David?