Beethoven: Symphony Nr.8 - Czerny Transcription - Historical Tempo Reconstruction -W.Winters/A.Sanna

[@WolfgangWeller]

Excellent teamwork and the best tempos, which enable suitable metrics, articulation and phrasing, including agogics! Czerny did the transcription very well, and it sounds extraordinarily full and warm on Wim's grand piano. Congratulations to you both!

[@albertosanna4539]

Thank you Wolfgang! Your comments are always the most appreciated. By the way, we took a lot of inspiration and ideas from your incredible version of the 8th in Liszt's transcription! Looking forward to your 9th!

[@VRnamek]

this channel is presenting the best 250 years of Beethoven ever! Keep it up!

[@VRnamek]

Btw, anyone else notices that Chopin's first valse theme comes from here?

[@roberacevedo8232]

@@VRnamek From which passage?

[@sjorsvanhens]

Someone give these men an orchestra!

[@VRnamek]

4-hands piano is exactly why it was also called the house orchestra back then

[@nicholasalexander3234]

Again, quite lovely at this tempo, thank you both.

[@ronkatz507]

I just listened to a "conventional" performance of this symphony and now, I am listening to your version. I have no doubt at all the you are correct about the tempo! The conventional way we hear this master work today is so fast... so much get lost with this speed that it makes it just ridiculous in my opinion. The tempo in your performance however, not only highlights every detail, it also speak directly to the human soul.

[@henrygaida7048]

Excellent playing. Papa Haydn can definitely be heard hovering overhead in this symphony, especially in the 2nd Movement. And the Finale definitely points towards Schubert. To put it simply, this just sounds 'right' in this tempo. Also, something that many people don't consciously realize today with the ubiquity of recordings: Most people probably didn't hear Beethoven's (or Haydn's or Mozart's) symphonies with orchestras on a regular basis; the way people became acquainted with this music was in a domestic environment like this with arrangements for Piano, 4 hands, or say an arrangement for Flute, Violin, 'Cello, and Piano, and that these arrangements (often produced under the supervision of the composer) were not intended for Virtuosi, but for average, though well-schooled musicians, Amateurs (Liebhaber) in the best sense, to be played at home; and they sold like crazy.

[@georgehenry8391]

I'm enjoying listening while reading comments. I like this arrangement and the tempo. It feels authentic and your comments help explain why.

[@ryaedowens]

I do not believe the 4th movement 'points towards' Schubert. Schubert developed from Beethoven.

[@susankinney5193]

Finally got to listen! My schedule is so discombobulated right now!! One of these days maybe things will be "normal" again. For now thankful to enjoy this later! This was splendid!! Thank you, Wim and Alberto!!! 😁😁😁

[@AuthenticSound]

always great to 'read' you Susan!

[@anthonymccarthy4164]

This was great. All I could think of was what this must have meant to musicians who had never heard the piece before sitting down to play it in the 19th century. I hope you get around to doing all of them in these transcriptions. What a revelation of how good a musician Czerney was, a real musical experience. I hope after Covid I can go through them with another piano player.

[@gracee819]

Bravo!! and super joyfully brilliant sounds. I'm listening to the compo by bluetooth 📼very satisfied with you 😆 Thank you❣️

[@AuthenticSound]

Thank you Masako!

[@engelbertschoormans]

I now discovered the Beethoven recording of Harke de Roos. What a delight! It does sound very natural with the WMBP.

[@FulvioGa]

Ah, what a plesure to hear Beethoven, I mean real Beethoven.

[@instrujam]

12:49 This Allegretto movement just sounds completely right at this tempo. Can't imagine why anyone would want to hear it faster, or slower. We should really trust what Beethoven asked for, after all he is a very good composer to put it mildly 🙂

[@nicthe85]

Whole beat is a funny thing as someone who has been accustomed to single beat performances (or approximates when they find they simply cannot play fast enough for the composer as they interpret the MMs). What I'm intending to say is that there is a range of success with regard to the ear. Some pieces, such as Beethoven's 6th piano sonata, sound as though whole beat suits them well and indeed the final movement of the 6th sonata seems to me to be truly musical only in whole beat. But the 7th sonata on the other hand sounds altogether too drawn and dulled in the whole beat reading. But THIS. I do not think I could hear the 8th any other way after hearing this. Whole beat makes this symphony intelligible and a true rival to the 6th symphony. Altogether, thank you Wim and Alberto. Who else would have facilitated that I should hear these interpretations or even presented to me the musical alternative? Nary a musician. Warm regards to Belgium from the United States. Edit: For those who felt the same as I after listening to Wim play the 7th sonata on his fortepiano, listen to his clavichord interpretation of the first movement, tempo according to Czerny. I recently discovered it when going through some older videos on the channel and it was much more enjoyable for me. The moderate increase in tempo breathes some life back into the sonata.

[@kurt2296]

I thoroughly enjoyed every moment of my this!

[@marcelolima887]

Amazing work, Wim and Alberto!!!! Thank you so much! Onwards to the Pathètique!

[@isaacbanuelos4305]

Fantastico

[@wolkowy1]

:) :) :) !!! Great performance both of you! I've heard it till the end and I hereby nominate Sapo to be the page-turner... Thanks also for the whole info. section to this upload. Thanks God I didn't hear this symphony for so many years so I could hear it now as for the 1st time with open mind and ears. By the way, at last you have proven to be also virtuosos! Keep up training, guys, at last you will have the masses' adoration for you with that speed! :) :) :) Now to be a little serious: the transcription is very good and the WBMP prove itself almost to the outmost in this particular symphony, which is a kind of a parody on the MM (not only in the 2nd movement, which is obvious, but in a way, all through the other movements). Thanks - I enjoyed listening very much: "You have truly made my night"!

[@AuthenticSound]

thanks!

[@adibhattacharyya8690]

This actually sounds great!! In the other symphonies which you performed, i have to admit i still wasn't completely convinced of your theory...but this one has won me over! The first movement sounds regal and brilliant like a haydn symphony (which was what beethoven was supposedly looking back at while composing this work). The finale is hilarious! Those short notes in the accompaniment really sound clear and distinct. The only movement which felt a little different was the second movement..but i guess its just a matter of getting used to. Fantastic performance! Hope you guys are safe and healthy. Can't wait for your next beethoven symphony

[@AuthenticSound]

Thanks!

[@Jrvdhulst]

I just love listening to these Czerny Transcriptions!! Very much looking forward when all the symphonies are on CD or Spotify! Thank you so much Wim for all your efforts!

[@AuthenticSound]

great to read 😊. but only the 5th will be on Spotify, the other symphonies will be available shortly on CD or digital download.

[@ChipsAplentyBand]

I love that Alberto plays in his stocking feet! And I might guess that he did so in order to prevent any unwanted shoe-on-wooden-floor noise from possibily getting onto the recording-? (Of course, there are then still page-turning sounds, which can't be helped when using sheet music.)

[@attoampere]

Bravo!

[@babithehuman2505]

This was always one of my least favorite Beethoven Symphonies, it just didn't make that much sense to me. This MUST have been the original tempo (or at least similiar) because its so much better! It's certainly beautiful, I now love it! Thank you very much.

[@charleshardy2252]

This is the best symphony. Wim and Alberto, this is a worthy rendition. Also nice socks Alberto.

[@thomashughes4859]

Who scrolled back to the top to look? ;)

[@classicalmusicgeek7097]

I don't know if it's just me but your tempo for works I'm not familiar with feels just right.

[@roberacevedo8232]

Congratulations on recording this one. I wasn't able to attend the live stream, but man this one was good! Great performance from both of you.

[@AuthenticSound]

thank you!

[@AbdulazizShabakouh]

I never liked his 8th symphony at all, no matter who is performing it, this symphony never made any sense until now! finally I'm convinced at this tempo that it is good.

[@voteforno.6155]

Funny, it has always been my #1 out of all of them. And I like it even more now.

[@BrianOxleyTexan]

That opening at that tempo would be so fantastic for a ballet to set in dance of the time.

[@brunocanal592]

Phenomenal!

[@ehm5389]

Bravo! Quite, quite remarkable! I thoroughly enjoyed listening to this, thank you!

[@sirpauljohn4763]

I love what you uncover, it goes well with the debt-based money system of the time as everyone was poor so whatever will sell will do including playing music faster to please the plebs who pay…? Thus it is a snake that eats own tail forever and ever… great recording by the way… Music should be played by ALL.

[@erenvardar9677]

33:52 that conversation :)

[@lucasmisaelcuadra2066]

All the quotes from the 5th symphony that start appearing at 34:14 are completely lost if you double the speed.

[@dougr.2398]

The beginning of this piece mirrors the bombast of the ending of the 5th in a more happy frame of mind or outlook.

[@nightjaronthegate]

I don't mind - if I want to hear the fifth symphony I'll listen to that. Beethoven may have deliberately disguised the quotes with a faster tempo to avoid making No 8 sound like No 5.

[@lucasmisaelcuadra2066]

Yeah fine. Go and do that.

[@xgiacomocalore6490]

Sono senza parole. Che esecuzione.. sembra un'altra musica. Meraviglioso.

[@rnregan]

Nice thumbnail👍!

[@roberacevedo8232]

I really want to see someone argue for that the last movement should be played 2 times faster. I want to see them say that's it's perfectly possible to play. Most likely they would deflect it saying that the mm are a joke XD

[@AuthenticSound]

It was a surprise even to us - even in whole beat.

[@petertyrrell3391]

The 1st movement often sounds like a dance at this speed.

[@VRnamek]

sounds like Chopin's first valse

[@nyctibatrachus1660]

Relatively few dislikes. This sounds great, regardless of what Beethoven and Czerny actually had in mind.

[@raymundomorales3201]

Ahh! the 8th. What a joke! No seriously. This symphony of his pokes fun at himself all throughout. And the most funny thing is that people will listen to the symphony with a serious mindset, and not with a humorous casual ear. The picture says it all. Beethoven making us smile and chuckle with him as he is being funny with himself. LOL!

[@sjorsvanhens]

Yes, in the same line as many of Haydn's inside-joke symphonies and Mozart's Ein musikalischer Spass.

[@vanselm66]

I agree too, this is a very special symphony and I like it.

[@victoravilaluvsangenden4029]

I'm reminded of F Murray Abraham's last words at the end of Amadeus! 🤣

[@dougr.2398]

So perhaps he wasn’t so crazy after all?!?

[@victoravilaluvsangenden4029]

@@dougr.2398 Indeed! He was quite spot on with his assertion!

[@WarinPartita6]

Thanks​

[@surgeeo1406]

Also, there was some talk about the _Sacre_ on the premiere... You could... In a few years, with a sturdier piano... There's a four-hands version of it 😉😉😊

[@DanielKRui]

May I ask when you guys will do the 9th Symphony? I've listened to your interesting renditions of 5 and 8, and would love to hear them all!

[@AuthenticSound]

preparing for that to come, but we'll have to wait till after Covid bringing the singers in!

[@thomashughes4859]

FYI, I haven't found a document that states that Allegro vivace was 69 measures to the minute (3/4). In fact, according to my sources, vivace was SLOWER than allegro. This was brilliant! That second movement gives it away, certainly! HAHA!!! Wonderful! Thank you guys for sharing your talents!!!

[@louisvalencia5244]

Ta ta ta ta ta tata ta tata ta

[@albertosanna4539]

❤️❤️❤️

[@thomashughes4859]

Ohhhh! This is the famous "Tick-Tock MM Symphonie"! Righteous! Canna wait! 👏👏👏👏👏

[@thomashughes4859]

@Classical Pianist He plays magnificently. He "earned" his half-beat stripes, so the LIE that these very accomplished musicians (Watch Wim's playing of the Clementi etude - WOW!) canna play "fast" is ridiculous! They are following the cookie crumbs of the past, and I concur with their conclusions about where tempi were then. :D Thanks for saying hi!

[@sirobattaglin]

Wow, your ensemble is amazing! Respect! I really enjoyed your performance! I can’t help being curious however, having just read Taruskin’s article “The New Antiquity’”on the approach to tempo in Beethoven’s symphonies. Of course his article (1987) predates your research, but in it, while admiring performers such as Norrington’s attempts at being faithful to Beethoven’s metronome markings, he brings up an interesting criticism, quoting Beethoven’s own comment on metronome markings, as being valid “only for the first few measures, as feeling has its own tempo.” While Taruskin praises Norrington, he criticises his uniform tempo persisting throughout the movements, which you’ve also chosen to do (possibly for good reason?). I’m very curious as to how you would approach tempo steadiness or fluctuation in Beethoven, especially when you have relative freedom in the context of 4-hand playing. I couldn’t track down the Czerny arrangement to see where, for example, hairpins might be present, or other markers of tempo change. Just curious for your thoughts, and again, congratulations on your performance!

[@jacquestaulard3088]

Bravo! I'm not accustomed to the 'slower' metric, but I consent to it.

[@jacquestaulard3088]

You are doing such important work! I can't actually accept that you have opposition! The metronome marks are there, the facts are available to any music department. I have a few amusing stories to share if you want. One was watching women faint when I saw Vladimir Horowitz play. Another was a third piano sonata (Beethoven) where at the solo parts, particularly in the third movement, the speed was approaching supersonic, men were groaning, women in the box seats tossed themselves onto the floor below. Spectacular.

[@claudiobarnabe5403]

According to my calculations, the first movement is too fast because it has to be the quarter note = 69, everything else is perfect. Keep going, every day is a step closer to the truth!

[@JcFiscus42]

This was a very compelling tempo for this piece. Thanks for doing this one! Just out of sheer curiosity I went back to listen to the Liszt transcription for this symphony, for anyone interested in comparing here’s the link kzbin.info/www/bejne/i6apoaqddpZ6fZo

[@MarzoVarea]

Or, in a slower tempo: kzbin.info/www/bejne/nYikfqdnftKInLM

[@luigiconsol7359]

there is evidence that Beethoven’s 8th symphony lasts for 25 minutes

[@albertosanna4539]

there is also a lot of evidence that musicians in the 19th century embraced the "progress of art" and the "rage of rapidity", where basically they did not care anymore about the intentions of the composers and played tempi that were considerably faster. And that's also why entire articles have been written to ask composers of providing the metronome numbers, to point to a tradition of tempi that was slower, because the italian tempo words were no longer good enough to give a precise speed indication. Along with the concert durations, we get also a lot of concert reviews where the authors of the articles always complain about the musicians playing at way too fast tempi. This duration of 25 minutes confirms this historical context, as the symphony according to the Beethoven intentions (the metronome numbers he gave) lasts 38 minutes, but in that particular context, the musicians probably played it faster as they were already accustomed to it during Beethoven's life. Unless we want to accept single beat as an historical truth, then the symphony 8 should last 19 minutes, and since the musicians played faster than the metronome numbers, they might very well have played it in 10-15 minutes. The other option could also very well be that, since the performance practice in the 19th century was not that of performing entire symphonies but only one or two movements, the musicians in this concert could have played close to Beethoven's idea of tempi and might have omitted some movements. Watch tomorrow's video and those that will come in this month, I am sure you will find them very interesting!

[@luigiconsol7359]

@@albertosanna4539 have a good day Alberto, i really like the channel and your work, i believe there was a period where people actually played music faster than the time indicated and Franz Liszt didn’t agree with that, he played the 8th symphony of Beethoven in 25 minutes, and being a student of Czerny who was a student of Beethoven I don't think he would change that tradition and play faster than indicated

[@eternafuentedeluzdivina3189]

Dear Wim: did you know that the greatest masters of music feel so sad since you became a lost hope to listen again what is the forgotten Humanity's Heritage?

[@roberacevedo8232]

*the last hope

[@eternafuentedeluzdivina3189]

@@roberacevedo8232 I hope there be more hopes... Because hope is the last thing we lose...

[@nicholasbartulovic6221]

In the development during the 4th mvmnt you can hear echoes of the 5th 1st mvmnt so much better than sped up.

[@hiera1917]

I’m *dying* to hear you two cobble together SATB singers, and all together perform the last symphony. Not the most original, but… with how grand this instrument sounds with 4 hands on it at once, I can just picture it in my head!

[@AuthenticSound]

The project is already on the table for the end of the year. Four young singers will join us in the making of the 9th :) Alberto

[@wurststullemettbrotchen7707]

@@AuthenticSound Im hyped for it ❤❤

[@JérémyPresle]

@@wurststullemettbrotchen7707 The 9 symphonies have already been recorded and will be released soon, stay tuned!

[@usernotfound6475]

That finale movement is something- Are you guys doing the ninth? And what kind of instrument is that? Harpsichord or piano?

[@teodorlontos3294]

It's a fortepiano, commonly used in the beginning of the 19th century before grand pianos became the standard.

[@surgeeo1406]

It's awkward saying this on the premiere, but your current skill is really good... I can't say anything more, because that would totally be a personality cult ohmygoood 😱😱😱 But seriously, I know you're not performing live, but recordings can be even worse... And the time window was so short too! I mean, all the hard work shows.

[@dougr.2398]

So glorious! Is there a Liszt version to compare? Finished listening! The after section was entertaining!

[@AuthenticSound]

Thx Doug!

[@MarzoVarea]

There is indeed a Liszt version played a tempo giusto by Wolfgang Weller. kzbin.info/www/bejne/nYikfqdnftKInLM

[@Aalii6]

beautiful, thank you!

[@AuthenticSound]

Glad you like it!

[@voteforno.6155]

36:40 GMOAT

[@thomashughes4859]

First! Makin' a comeback! 😂😂🤣

[@michelleclerc3857]

Tweede beweging: Sergej Prokofjev..........

[@BryanMatuskey]

BRAVO!

[@pavaomrazek]

I've never heard this symphony before and this sounds completely natural to me! No faster tempo please!

[@jesusdominguez_2004]

Saludos en español

[@roberacevedo8232]

Saludos a ti en español también

[@thomashughes4859]

¡Hello, in English! JAJA! Saludos efectuosos desde Aguascalientes, Mexico! Bienvenido!

[@he1ar1]

Knappertsbusch seems to be bit quicker than wb tempo. kzbin.info/www/bejne/fnOZhIuImtqBfKc The comments to this video suggest he would be going to slowly for the joke, perhaps the joke is missed because he (even though much slower than single beat) is still too fast!

[@alcyonecrucis]

I feel as though one day I will look back at the Wim Winters recordings as today we look at Landowska or Cortot... “Wim played it better!”

[@williammanico2359]

Beautiful.......and with no pedal, I can’t imagine it in single bear

[@thomashughes4859]

It takes two ticks to move the escapement mechanism of every clock! (Yes, quartz included as it must vibrate to and fro at 2^15 Hz) This was so much fun! Around 7:40 - I canna pay the rent! You MUST pay the rent! as the trains comes down the track!

[@tomhase7007]

Listened to it at x2 speed. Sounded about right.

[@AuthenticSound]

you feel better now?

[@morkessler2456]

Put on 1.5x speed and it will sound normal

[@AuthenticSound]

to who?

[@morkessler2456]

To most of the people who have heard the symphony many times. Its length is about 25 minutes and not 44 minutes. This specific performance was too slow, and when I put on 1.5x speed, it sounds like the original performances of the 8th symphony at its correct speed and time.

[@AuthenticSound]

1.5 speed, bu definition can not be even close to the original, since the Metronome marks are from beethoven himself. it is either this version or exactly twice the speed- so what you write can feel right according to your opinion or taste, but cannot be correct according to historic facts. And in our case those are that guides us in discovering this music anew

[@awfulgoodmovies]

So in single beat the 8th is a 21 minute symphony!!? LOL!

[@AuthenticSound]

yes

[@bameylan]

44 minutes for the symphony? Much too long for the time. Very interesting experience and very well played, but that does not convince me at all.

[@AuthenticSound]

So what would be your solution? And why would a 44 minute symphony be too long in that time?

[@Diego-vs6uv]

So you are saying that Beethoven don't know the meaning of Allegro Vivace :(

[@Diego-vs6uv]

It's not faster than humanly possible, Allegro Vivace is something exciting and alive,not a easy piece for relaxing

[@Diego-vs6uv]

@@JérémyPresle Italian words were all that bach had to indicate time, logically useful and serve perfectly to indicate time, and neglecting something that we know well what it means makes more sense than putting faith in a Pseudo theory

[@Diego-vs6uv]

@@JérémyPreslestill doesn't look like Allegro Vivace , the Italian words seem do not agree with a double beat reasoning, Prestissimo =As fast as possible :)

[@Diego-vs6uv]

@@JérémyPresle well,you got very good points,I understand you , I just don't share the same beliefs,if you want to take a look and understand me ... www.mediafire.com/file/zclp63qdpqeqwz3/Historical_Tempi.pdf/file

[@roberacevedo8232]

@@Diego-vs6uv Just like Spanish rapidísimo, prestissimo would never be used to say "as fast as possible". It would only mean very fast or more than fast.