Richter's FAMOUS Schubert all WRONG??

Sviatoslav Richter still is famous today for a lot of legendary recordings he made. Among those are the extremely slow Schubert performances that also still resonate today. Is there anything wrong with those interpretations when comparing to what the composer might have intended? Or was Richter onto something, by instinct perhaps, restoring something that we forgot? Let's see.
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[@wardropper]

Wagner made a great comment about how a conductor can always choose the 'right' speed: All you need to do is sing a few bars of the music - even if you aren't a trained singer, if you are serious about it, you will hit the speed that is right FOR YOU. Richter wasn't Horovitz, and Horovitz wasn't Richter, but their musical character is what made the interpretations of both men so compelling. Apart from that, there is no such thing as 'too fast' or 'too slow'. It either works, or it doesn't. With Richter, it works.

[@starckwest6358]

this experience occurs so often for the musician who will play his entire program in his life at all speeds, then he will make a choice for the concert. His choice, his freedom, his integrity.

[@wolkowy1]

It's a very good move to bring this ex. by Richter and Glenn Guld's words - no one can deny their technical abilities of rushing things up, however - the young generation (as you can see from some of the comments here below) are used to move fast, but they should understand that Schubert was living in another era and so was its music. They should understand that the main issue is not their own patience (or impatience) for listening to long, almost meditative music, but the inner meaning and ideas of the music the composer intended to transfer to its audience. Thanks Wim for another fine upload.

[@surgeeo1406]

Oh wow... Richter was playing a prayer there, very impressive.

[@ArturJD96]

And Mr. Wim made a corresponding touching sermon!

[@rq3tgunm]

I wonder why you are talking about "the last Sonata by Schubert". The last one is, as far as I can see, D 960, isn't it? By the way: thank you for your work which Ithink is really important!

[@kaled9254]

When I met with Lorenz last summer, he also showed me this interpretation by Richter. Great Video, Wim!

[@jorislejeune]

Richter most certainly played the D960 (B flat) and Gould was right. The concert was recorded by the radio and has been issued on CD multiple times.

[@Mpiman]

It's worth noticing that the sonata Gould mentioned and the one you discuss here are two different ones!!

[@gemnox]

Th video said that the dubber got it wrong. Apparently Gould was actually talking about the G Major sonata.

[@andrewharrison8975]

I don’t think the Sonata in G , D894 was Schubert’s last sonata; the tryptic in A, C minor and in B Flat Major were the last sonatas.

[@da__lang]

That voice actor came impressively close to replicating Gould's voice when recreating the audio for that interview.

[@classicgameplay10]

The interesting thing is, you can arrive at the right tempo, at least close to it, 90% of the tempo, by simply playing a little bit.

[@rosemariemann1719]

Hello, I started listening to the music being played, and although not being highly trained, (only an amateur🎼💕), I was afraid I was being presumptuous, by thinking virtually the same as the text shown around 10 min's. If the composer gave the tempo, then certainly most would respect that. But Richter seemed to be " saying ", "Just listen to it THIS way , let's see what else we can find here..." I don't know this piece ( only very slightly..🤔), but it was interesting to hear : a feeling of " savouring " each note, revealing a different emotional response, perhaps...🎼😊. Will listen further.🎼🎹 Thank you.🎼💕🇬🇧. 🇬🇧💕🎼😊🥀🦉🎼 🎼💕🎹🦉💕🎼🇬🇧

[@fredhoupt4078]

Lovely podcast Wim. Really enjoyed it.

[@EwicoCylinder]

I really would love to see something from Maestro Celibidache on your Channel. He was also well known for "slow" Tempi. Interesting fact, for him didn't exist a to slow or to fast tempo.

[@ChocloManx]

i was thinking the same thing. there's a great essay by edward said about celibidache's slow tempi.

[@EwicoCylinder]

@@ChocloManx Well i wouldn't say slow, i really like celibidaches Tempi. For Bruckner he went in my opinion on some symphonies and passages a little too extrem slow but other than that his way of conducting is clear like a crystal.

[@ChocloManx]

@@EwicoCylinder I love Celibicache's performances as well (even if Celibidache the person was a total douche), but I'd say take it up to edward said if he wasn't dead...... although he's very positive about Celibidache in the essay. "Extreme Occasions" it's called

[@EwicoCylinder]

@@ChocloManx Interesting fact all true musicians are abit mad in their had (me too of course). I always saw celibidache like a man who lived in his own universe and i know i might sound strange, but i like his crazy way of thinking about certain thinks he said.

[@maleahlock]

My boyfriend cannot comprehend why I find this fascinating 😂 Great video once again. Thank you 😊

[@erzherzogone4802]

I don’t get it. You and later on Glenn Gould are talking about Schubert‘s LAST Sonata. And he (the speaker) said B-Major ( what is right) and the text is correcting him, that he said G-Major??? G-Major Sonata, subject of this vid, is not his last one. It was followed by c-minor, A- major and finally B-Major. As far as I know. Please correct me, if i am wrong.

[@surgeeo1406]

I remember reading one of J. S. Bach's students describing his playing as having the ability to turn hours into minutes. So there's a coincidence.

[@Alix777.]

Richter and Schubert help me in my life. Thank you, great video M.Winters.

[@GSHAPIROY]

2:12 NOT Schubert's last sonata...not even one of the last three!

[@user-vz4fy8uw9y]

Во-первых, ТАКОЕ исполнение было рассчитано именно на ЯПОНСКУЮ публику. По замыслу Рихтера, соната Шуберта изображала неспешное и самопогружённое любование цветущей сакурой. Во-вторых, Рихтер известен своим экспериментаторством. После него осталось много вариантов одного и того же произведения в разных темпах. Поразительно, что мы готовы принять их все, хотя это как будто противоречит логике! В-третьих, сравнивать надо исполнения в разных темпах ОДНОГО И ТОГО ЖЕ пианиста, а не разных! Тогда вы ответите на вопрос "почему?"

[@_c4milqq.o7]

Yet more amazing is Richter's tempo in "Relique" sonate (D840)

[@esfirross6800]

Yakov Milshtein was SR piano duo partner told that his Schubert sonata played too slow. S.Richter answer than he played even slower. SR was was hurt by this comment. "Than I'll play even slowly" He had a grudge on Yakov M. When SR learn that YM died walking on Moskow snow covered street he express exciting feel of revenge: "Just face down into snow". From Andrei Gavrilov memoires.

[@nobody_gtk]

very interesting remark you made about "skipping the brain." gives me much to think about

[@gerardchurch7959]

Richter has such a sound that he can make long lines and that's the tempi he wants .....

[@pianoatthirty]

Hey Wim I don't know if you've considered this, but if you were to put together a PDF of all the historical tempi you've come across for Mozart, Schubert, Bach, et al, by Moscheles and others, I would happily pay for said PDF.

[@anthonymccarthy4164]

Yes, this.

[@PabloMelendez1969]

Also, excellent Wim, don't forget us lowly non-musicians, and make us a PDF. We want a list of recordings you come by that actually get the tempo right.

[@rachsky1224]

Go and read the Allgemeine muzikalische Zeitung n 8 September 1821. zeigt die Gradation vom langsamsten bis zum geschwindesten Tempo steigende Bewegung . Diese zerfällt in drey Hauptheile . 1 ) Langsam ( Adagio ) . 2 ) Mässig ( Andante ) . 3 ) Geschwind ( Allegro ) . Diese Bewegungen theile ich jede wieder in drey Theile ein als : - langsam 1º . Sehr langsam 20. Sehr mässig mässig 30. Mässig geschwind - - nicht zu langsam . etwas geschwind . geschwind sehr schnell . - - ich nehme die Zahl 80 als Mittelpunkkt an , weil in dieser Zahl sich die drey Grundbewegungen vereinigen , je nachdem man entweder eine 8tel Note , eine 4tel oder halbe Note mit derselben bezeichnen will . Achtzig Achtelnoten in einer Minute ist langsam , Achtzig Viertelnoten mässig , und Achtzig halbe Noten geschwind . Achtzig halbe Noten nenne ich geschwind , weil im 4/4tel Tackte 40 Takte auf eine Minute fielen . 120 halbe Noten nenne ich sehr geschwind , weil 60 Takte im Lauf von einer Minute sich beym ganzen Takte bilden . 60 halbe Noten in einer Minute , gränzt an das , was ich mässig oder Andante nenne , an . 80 Viertelnoten ist mässig , 60 Viertel gränzt an Adagio an , in welchem 80 Achtelnoten langsam ist , weil 10 Takte auf ein Minute fallen , und sehr langsam sich bilden muss , wenn man z . B. das Gegengewicht des Balanciers auf 56 stellte , wo nur 7 Takte in 4 Takte in einer Minute ausgeführt werden . Diese Darstellung beweist , dass man auf der Zahl des Metronoms deutlicher die Bewegung eines Tonstückes bemerken kann als durch vorgeschriebene Worte . Der Bequemlichkeit halber habe ich die erste Tabelle in Decimalzahlen eingetheilt ..." This disproof the double beat theory, at least from the metronome onwards. Before he could be true. But this is a document and I don't know why Wim never talk about it...

[@pianoatthirty]

@@rachsky1224 I don't care whether or not double beat is "correct". It's simply more fun to play. I asked Wim if he wouldn't mind making a compilation of the tempi he has found. You can argue about correctness, I'm going to focus on having fun playing music.

[@rachsky1224]

Metronome 80 half note is fast because in 4/4 40 bars are fitting in a minute. More clear than this.

[@PianoJFAudioSheet]

Gould said B-flat Major and meant B-flat Major which is the last sonata (No. 21). The G Major is No. 18

[@da__lang]

Gould misspoke in the original audio. He said G major. The voice actor who dubbed the audio corrected the error.

[@PianoJFAudioSheet]

@@da__lang Well, even if he did, he still meant B-flat as he said he is referring to his last sonata. And Mr. Winters doesn't seem to understand

[@goldennuggets75]

I don't believe his excessively slow tempos in the G major and B flat sonatas are anything like what Schubert intended. Of course Richter was a genius, there are countless other great performances of these pieces at tempos the composer would've expected, so no harm and some benefit to performances that force us to listen to them in a different way, especially when done as well as Richter does it. But let's not pretend it's what the composer intended, or that it doesn't run the serious risk of distorting the piece's meaning and overall structure of the entire sonatas.

[@scottweaverphotovideo]

Musicians should play in the manner that moves them.

[@awfulgoodmovies]

Unfortunately, it's a speed contest. When I was hooked on uber pianists playing insane tempi....I would check the recording time, and always chose the quicker one. ( 14:30!?!? So and so does it in 13:45!! $$$ )

[@Sveccha93]

Richter gives me chills. Unreal. The Schubert B flat is such a beauty....can you imagine hearing that in person?

[@RichardGoldwaterMD]

Are there metronome settings in Schubert, as there are with Beethoven? Beethoven is usually played way too slowly.

[@germanmoreno9609]

Why, when creating the metronome, was the number of "clicks" prioritized over the pendular movement when setting the numerical value we see on metronomes, considering that time was also measured taking into account the complete pendular movement? This choice would have avoided confusion and would have been more coherent with measuring time according to the pendular movement. Thank you very much. Sincerely,

[@germanmoreno9609]

​ Does this mean that when Czerny writes that if the composer wants the quarter note to be at 112, each click of the metronome set to 112 indicates the duration of the quarter note? / "For example, if the indication reads: M.M. Quarter Note=112, you move the triangle attached to the front notched rod of the metronome precisely to the notch aligned with the backward-facing number 112, release the rod, and play each quarter note exactly to the audible beats of the metronome."

[@germanmoreno9609]

I think it's clear that musicians in that era measured the complete pendular movement, that was the measurement they took into account. That's why I don't understand why Mälzel put the number of beats per minute on the metronomes instead of each complete pendular movement per minute. If one plays Czerny's example of the Waltz at dotted half note = 88, taking each beat to determine the tempo, one realizes that it doesn't make sense, that it's not a Waltz. However, considering the complete pendular movement, the dotted quarter note (meaning each whole measure) at 88 complete pendular movements, that's the correct Waltz tempo and the tempo that has been used for Waltz dancing up to our days. This means that we shouldn't understand the word "Schlag" that Czerny uses as beat but as a complete pendular period. (...genau nach den hörbaren Schlägen des Metronoms. ...exactly to the audible beats of the metronome. Czerny op. 500) And this lack of clarity in the meaning of the terms also makes confusion possible.

[@imronbekfoziljonov7649]

Thank you very much! ❤ Here I understand Bach!🤔

[@adagiocgn18]

Who is this guy judging great richter? Awfull

[@notmytempo464]

But why are you just talking about tempo here. Its not just about the tempo. I really doubt thats what hes thinking about with this interpretation its such an uninspiring way of thinking about it. Its not enough just to play slow

[@andreasvandieaarde]

I tried contacting you on your website to ask you a question, Wim, but it appears as though it did not send. I would appreciate if you answer. My question is this: are you vegan? If not, why? If you need clarification on what I mean by anything, let me know.

[@FingersKungfu]

Could you tell me when is your book coming out?

[@AuthenticSound]

it's still planned for May 24th 2024

[@laclarte3]

I love Richter's Schubert although I might be a bit biased because his recordings were the ones I first got to know and love the great Schubert sonatas with. But I was also pleasantly surprised when later hearing Maria Joao Pires' recordings. Obviously much faster but also lighter. Suddenly, the first movement of D960 for instance didn't sound so depressing anymore but much more lighthearted or at least emotionally ambiguous, a bit like Mozart does. Was also a great experience. But I guess with a composer like Schubert, different approaches work. (Unlike with Mozart, where I often feel that his music simply sounds "right" or "wrong.")

[@surgeeo1406]

Maria João Pires is our pianist, from Portugal. A great humanitarian, she founded a charity called Belgais, for economically disadvantaged children to have conservatory level music education. Since it was reliant on donations, it went bankrupt when both the public and the government allowed for it. There's a frustrating disinterest for high arts in this country. But at least João Pires tried...

[@Alix777.]

Yeah, Richter is miles away from this pianist, too lighthearted for me, and not only in Schubert. Her Mozart on DG is awfully pretty.

[@Stashi1808]

If dreams really could come true, I dream about hearing Schubert's sonata D960 in B flat and Mozart's sonata K. 570 in B flat in the right tempo. Pretty please with 8th notes for cherrys on top? Thanks for the Beethoven complte sonatas. Beethoven is my most favorite, I don't know what I'd do if I couldn't hear him being played as he was meant to be...a thank you by every classical compositions there are ever written! Good day.❤

[@Mazatta-0912]

李赫特的演奏肯定不是古典风格的舒伯特原作，但是他确实诠释了一个很不一样的舒伯特，反正我特别喜欢慢速的舒伯特，很有深度

[@AuthenticSound]

and most probably very close to what Schubert really had in mind

[@Mazatta-0912]

@@AuthenticSound sure，i believe the great composer must have thought much more than us

[@welshtoro3256]

Richter is extreemly slow in two movements in different Schubert sonatas. Is that a problem? Clearly it is going to be for many people. I have so many recordings of those two sonatas by many great artists I can turn to those if I want it played at a more regular tempo. Here's the thing. Why do I have so many recordings of Schubert's piano sonatas? It's because I enjoy listening to different artists, with different styles and interpretations. I don't play Richter's recordings of D894 very often but there are times when I really want to connect with his style and intelligence. This is a great artist and there is a reason why he likes to perform in that way. Heaven forbid that all artists perform in an identical style. Richter himself made it clear that if a piece of music didn't interest him he felt no desire to bother with it. Artists are not robots: It's up to them how they wish to translate music to the listening audience.

[@Renshen1957]

The first edition 1826, the circa 1850 edition of J. Boehme, the F W Markull, and the 1888 Julius Epstein edition do not have MM indications. The Franz Liszt edition published by Theodore Presser no date, I can find the founding of Etude, and the Presser Publication lists 1893, death is 1886 not withstanding has dotted quarter = 63. This would be between 31 and 32 single beats per minute. Liszt has an ossia in small score for his editorial articulation or notes held which Presser may have put these with the original below as best as I can determine.

[@albertsystem1]

My girlfriend will never understand why I'm way into this channel.

[@CarloFerraro]

Fast and great technique are NOTHING if the music message does not arrive, Art does not work like that…

[@sirsamfay99]

Friedrich Wuhrer at least for myself is the benchmark for all other interpreters of Schubert's piano music.

[@albertosousatenor]

This channel changed my perception of tempi so much I now find myself having to slow down the playback speed here on KZbin most instrumental music written up to late 19th century.

[@dantrizz]

I'm exactly the same

[@francoiszwang3852]

Big mistake by confusing D.894 et D.960 in your wrong Gould comments......

[@rachsky1224]

Dear Mr. Winters, I am still waiting for a response concerning a document the Allgemeine muzikalische Zeitung n 8 September 1821 in which Mälzel himself explains the single beat, specifically. My comments seems to dissapear about it... "zeigt die Gradation vom langsamsten bis zum geschwindesten Tempo steigende Bewegung . Diese zerfällt in drey Hauptheile . 1 ) Langsam ( Adagio ) . 2 ) Mässig ( Andante ) . 3 ) Geschwind ( Allegro ) . Diese Bewegungen theile ich jede wieder in drey Theile ein als : - langsam 1º . Sehr langsam 20. Sehr mässig mässig 30. Mässig geschwind - - nicht zu langsam . etwas geschwind . geschwind sehr schnell . - - ich nehme die Zahl 80 als Mittelpunkkt an , weil in dieser Zahl sich die drey Grundbewegungen vereinigen , je nachdem man entweder eine 8tel Note , eine 4tel oder halbe Note mit derselben bezeichnen will . Achtzig Achtelnoten in einer Minute ist langsam , Achtzig Viertelnoten mässig , und Achtzig halbe Noten geschwind . Achtzig halbe Noten nenne ich geschwind , weil im 4/4tel Tackte 40 Takte auf eine Minute fielen . 120 halbe Noten nenne ich sehr geschwind , weil 60 Takte im Lauf von einer Minute sich beym ganzen Takte bilden . 60 halbe Noten in einer Minute , gränzt an das , was ich mässig oder Andante nenne , an . 80 Viertelnoten ist mässig , 60 Viertel gränzt an Adagio an , in welchem 80 Achtelnoten langsam ist , weil 10 Takte auf ein Minute fallen , und sehr langsam sich bilden muss , wenn man z . B. das Gegengewicht des Balanciers auf 56 stellte , wo nur 7 Takte in 4 Takte in einer Minute ausgeführt werden . Diese Darstellung beweist , dass man auf der Zahl des Metronoms deutlicher die Bewegung eines Tonstückes bemerken kann als durch vorgeschriebene Worte . Der Bequemlichkeit halber habe ich die erste Tabelle in Decimalzahlen eingetheilt ..." He clearly states the single beat here...

[@rachsky1224]

@@chlorinda4479 But it's not that simple. Everyone with a bit of logic would say that he is correct. The problem now is this document and what I wanted is just an explanation.

[@rachsky1224]

@@chlorinda4479 what i believe, which is merely speculations, is that before the invention of the metronome there was actually double beat. The example that he brought about tomaschek is evident.

[@rachsky1224]

@@chlorinda4479 The issue is practical though. Just listen to the music at single beat actual tempo. It is nonsense. This is why I believe there is something else we are missing.

[@rachsky1224]

@@chlorinda4479 have you listen to it? You barely can hear the sillables. Nor being able to breathe between phrases

[@mourgoukos]

Shubert is often "accused" of being repetitive and Richter of being too fast. I was shocked when I first heard this recording, years ago. It just didn't feel like any of these things. I got lost in the sound. (I swear, I wrote this comment before listening to Gould.. 😁)

[@mourgoukos]

@@Pablo-gl9dj but it doesn't feel like it, when Richter, and not only, plays

[@Stashi1808]

I love the real tempos so much more. I wish I could hear Mozart and schubert and Beethoven's symphony orchestras preformed the right way... any Chace though, of seeing my favorite Schubert sonata D960 in B flat major performed??❤

[@telephilia]

There are those who rate Richter's playing of the first movement of the G major sonata the best, apparently equating slowness with profundity. But it clearly goes against Schubert's tempo indication, especially since it is followed not by a scherzo but by the real slow movement.

[@FulvioGa]

Do not expect most people understand that, they cannot, only a minority of people can understand that.

[@classicgameplay10]

True.

[@brandonmacey964]

I love the way you play sir

[@falamimire]

Leave Richter alone -genius cannot be commented nor crticized.What is this guy talking about?What the composer had in mind is something he and only he knows.

[@imrevadasz1086]

Why would a composer even publish the score, if their intention on the interpretation isn't quite clear from it? So given that, one can sure look at whether an interpretation is following the score closely or is taking liberties. This doesn't detract from the genius, it's just a musicological discussion.

[@davidmagana626]

Why you don´t post videos so often as before??

[@surgeeo1406]

The foundation of any music genre, past or present, has to be tempo. There's a joke in Punk culture that if you play it twice as fast you end up with Polka. Rock ballads have a feel that falls appart when the Tempo is wrong, same with Reggae, etc, etc. It's possible that affect and time signature combinations also had an expectation about how they felt, which had to be founded in Tempo aswell. This is just how I think about this, and anyone eager to prove me wrong should just leave me alone, I'm not asking for debates here, just sharing my thoughts to the channel owner.

[@dukimanx6228]

The problem is that when you are used to a fast interpretation, a slower tempo seems unusually slow. It is just how our brains are. Can you imagine listening to beatles songs at double tempo! Seems absurd but we do this with classical music all the time.

[@awfulgoodmovies]

Yup, the Beatles 'Hey Jude" at double the tempo is quite the rocker and when I switch to normal tempo it seems like they are playing underwater!😁so sloooow!

[@DavidDuVivier]

Before I discovered Richter’s performances of Schubert I never appreciated his works for solo piano. Now they are among my favorites. Richter was possibly the greatest pianist of all times, perhaps equalled by some (Horowitz, Rubinstein, Michelangeli, among any number of others, including younger contemporaries), but certainly never surpassed. At least with respect to his renditions of some composers. Most certainly to include Schubert. It's fortunate that KZbin's "cogwheel" allows one to double the playback speed to 2x so one can get through rather uninformative clips like this one quickly. Fazit: Thumbs down, and I’m not coming back to this channel... because there’s nothing to find here but Euro-English babble. Example? The name of the Canadian pianist in this clip is "Gould'', not "Gold".

[@DohcHama]

Playing music is not an athletic pursuit.

[@emilsimanian2275]

The Richter performances of the same music in different ages has different tempos, first 15 seconds of each performance there is almost 3 seconds difference in tempo and performance time and also different temperament, can not tell he is sticking to some pre defined tempo in sort of couple of bars of performance, who knows if different mental and emotional condition if himself Schubert was, how would he notate the tempo, I can say it is not that important for the creator of the music specially this one how the creator of the music would perform in exactly same tempo as indicated by the creator of the music, he would end up different tempo himself, the indication is just an expression not bit per second. this is todays western mentality of how 300 years before they understood of music, that is why now they listeners are way far from their own culture of that past, know some history and live in the past to understand and do not rush in making videos so fast. tempo is temperament, the creator of the music was not that serious as the presenter of this youtube, take it easy, those times were different than now, one second now was different than one second in 17th century not because of the second , just because of the mind set of romantic and human beings that lived on those days with their vision on one second of life. do not think your one second of feeling is the one second of feeling of Chopin or Schumann sop to speak. just saying, I am always open to discussion.

[@user-vc7ut5ow6u]

You can not call Richter russian pianist because he was not russian at all.