Avatar: How To Get Political

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[@gigim.9742]

"You're not against political stories. You're against BAD political stories." YES!!! THANK YOU!!!

[@carlosroo5460]

That's what KZbinrs that had been call bigots for criticizing bad entertainment, had been saying for years.

[@DahVoozel]

I have no idea why KZbinrs focusing on the diversity of the cast and the off screen comments of the actors about sexuality, feminism, or racial justice and constantly spewing about wokeness would be called bigots. They are merely commenting on the construction of the story, editing, and dialog of the work.

[@kaitlyn__L]

@@DahVoozelis “the work” real life? Otherwise those off screen comments are definitionally not part of the work, and people complaining about them are complaining about extratextual factors rather than the text itself.

[@Rennar3210]

@@kaitlyn__L they were being sarcastic. First reply wasn't though.

[@ClaSSik108]

I'm curious which ones you think are bad

[@nightingale4786]

a small detail that gets looked over during the pako/katara fight is that the first time katara was able to evade his attacks, there's a group of young girls presumably coming out of yagoda's hut, cheering katara on. this is a great example of how small actions by one generation can inspire the next and it also shows that without the cultural pressures growing up would bring, young female waterbenders in the north would also want to train to fight.

[@misfits9294]

I genuinely love the fact Katara loses, because it not only makes sense, but in reality...it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if she wins or loses physically, she stood up for what she believed in, and the fact even if she loses, that she NOWS going in she'll lose, and goes in anyway with all she's got, is so inspiring and kickass. She's amazing, win or lose, because she didn't back down when that was the easiest way out. Standing for what's right, not turning you back on people and backing away, is a core part of Katara's character, and that's a thousand times more inspiring and a better message for young girls then if she won the fight physically. Because in the end, that's not what's needed to solidify Katara as a feminist role model and icon. We should all strive to be like Katara, man, woman or nonbinary pal.

[@Prototype-357]

I don't know who came up with this silly notion that if a woman loses to a guy once that erases all her independance, like all of the other things she accomplished don't matter. As if a woman helping a guy or receiving help from a guy automatically makes her weak, I don't get why anyone would think that a woman's independance is that fragile.

[@bobtheball5384]

​@@Prototype-357I think it might have to do with misogny and or the approval of other men.

[@EzaleaGraves]

If she had won the fight there would have been the implicit message that being a woman warrior was only allowed if she was better than the men, along with the message that Katara as a character didn't have any room to grow. In a story based so heavily around mastering new skills, you need to have characters lose.

[@Perroden]

No such thing as a nonbinary human being.

[@misfits9294]

Wow, you're in the wrong comment section. And I guess every single nonbinary person on the planet just doesn't exist now.@@Perroden

[@ayarcy5303]

As a female veteran I will add this: I'm almost certain that the sexism of the Northern water tribe in some way lingers by the time of Korra that we the audience don't see (cause, you know, Korra's the Avatar), most likely in there being a stigma around water bending women learning combat bending (and men learning healing of course) that would gradually lessen over time. Trust me when I say, female troops/vets have some *stories*, especially the further back in time you go. Toppling oppressive systems doesn't start and end in changing laws, attitudes also have to change, and the scars from outdated policies still linger for decades (look at the legacy of red lining in the US, as an example). I hope I'm not coming off to "preachy" just adding a little extra insight:)

[@darkmindaustin]

As a male US non-combat arms vet, I get called all kinds of PoG (people other than grunt) monikers by older vets, and looks of confusion by civilians. There would be a forever stigma for the divide. It may leave the civilian consciousness, but you will always see that older male waterbender soldier giving the stink eye to the young up and coming female warrior, or the snide or condescending remarks from a matron as a male waterbender tries to become a healer. It leaves greater society, but remains a constant companion inside the systems. Also being one of the few jobs that had serious female representation, man do I commiserate with all that I saw (and reported,) and understand the horror stories. I do hope some of your scars lessen with time. Thank you for sharing!

[@soccerandtrack10]

@@darkmindaustin the end sentence for the 1st paragraph double meaning for d.i.d. people./? (note=it probbally is.)

[@soccerandtrack10]

@@darkmindaustin im researching d.i.d., the hyper focus for adhd. Is it bad if you have mostly the emotional amnisa for memories unless its only really sad for some when a kid for might haveing the o.s.d.d. kinds?

[@darkmindaustin]

@@soccerandtrack10 That isn't what I mean. In a whole, Greater Society can move past many stigmas that are destroyed due to societal changes, when allowed to properly move on. In closed systems, like militaries, govt agencies, etc., stigmas remain until greater force than the stigma itself is applied. That is what my examples were specifically meant for. I used the example of a male soldier (water bender) having doubts and visually showing distrust of a female soldier (water bender) and then the equal point of a female leader of healing (water bender) ridiculing a male healer (water bender) for going healer because, as the original commenter and I, are veterans of a military in one form or another. Thus, we have seen the stigmas first hand, have had them applied. Her for being the woman in the soldier position, I being in a support role. This has nothing to really do with ADHD, and their stigma is vastly different (and covered in a different episode of Avatar as a whole.)

[@EzaleaGraves]

"Rysn had been warned never to mistake Thaylen naval traditions for Thaylen naval regulations. Regulations, after all, were written down- which made them far far easier to change." -Brandon Sanderson, Dawnshard

[@sean_mccadden]

The beautiful part is it re-iterates this message when Sokka meets Suki and the Kyoshi warriors and is humbled by them. And to further cement the message they have Suki still displaying feminine traits while also being a strong warrior

[@TemariNaraannaschatz]

This! Sokka unlearns his own mysoginistic belives as part of his journey in season 1. Pilot Sokka would be more upset that Yue can't be with him than the fact the Yue can't be with anyone she chooses, season 1 finale Sokka is rightfully calling out this awful custom.

[@sean_mccadden]

@TemariNaraannaschatz Yeah, his journey and growth is honestly pretty underrated. From first unlearning conditioned misogyny to dealing with trauma of losing his first love and learning to love again and lastly finding true confidence and purpose over his boyish cockiness

[@michaellane5381]

He also learns not to be ashamed of his own feminine traits in conflict and that accepting his personal flaws can help himself hold his own in combat... A good lesson when facing true brutes like Ozai that Sokka had no chance of outperforming in a battle of Machismo, but accepting his fears and letting them go too crazy proved their undoing... Having his ubermanly friend Toph helped with that too though😂

[@bradreed2001]

@@michaellane5381The Fire Nation play didn’t capture Toph’s physical form or gender very well at all… but her soul. Her soul it caught perfectly

[@kingace6186]

Honestly, if it wasn't for the lessons Sokka learned from Suki, he probably would have never connected with Yue.

[@TaylorReedHudson]

What grinds my gears is when writers take whatever political side they don’t agree with and make the worst straw man misrepresentations of them possible so they can laugh about how stupid they are.

[@savagebooks7482]

Which honestly makes everything worse for everybody 🙃

[@Perroden]

So much this. As a Christian iv seen this happen so many times in movies and TV shows were they discredit Christianity by having the Christian with poor arguments if any when I even as a kid could answer those questions.

[@notfromhere8889]

Guess I'm just different. When a character with political views is portrayed as a jackass I only see that character as a jackass. Not the political view. I learned that working with inner city kids. Despite sharing some overall ideas, they were individuals. And yes, some were over the top.

[@LuisSierra42]

That's called PROPAGANDA!!

[@LaneMaxfield]

One of my rules of thumb: if I hate a particular idea so much that I could not possibly show a relatable human being advocating for it, it doesn't belong in my story. I can show points of view that I disagree with, but only if I can provoke some level of sympathy. Avatar is another good example - we ultimately agree that if Katara wants to be trained to fight alongside Aang, she should not be denied that chance based solely on her gender. But we understand why the society evolved the way it did and that the characters are just doing what makes sense to them in that context. We can disagree with Pakku while seeing him as a fully realized human being, not an idiotic bigot.

[@madds5281]

What’s great about Katara’s fight scene too is that she didn’t lose right away either. Master Paku would and did win, but we’ve spent the season watching Kataras fighting skill improve and it gets to be paid off here. The scene balances showing proof that Katara should be treated as an equal by enjoying how cool she is and keeps it’s world logic when she loses.

[@1987tijgertje]

Not only that, but on the end she gets the title master from Paku himself. “He better get used to calling you master Katara”

[@malikevans634]

"When you do something right, people won't be sure you did anything at all." -God, Futurama

[@Phantom86d]

I see you're a man of culture. 🧐

[@malikevans634]

@@Phantom86d Thank you, Sir. Thank you kindly. 😎

[@Elena-tj3so]

The most annoying thing about badly written political messages is it *undermines* the very message they're trying to say. People who don't agree with the message will point to bad storytelling and the ones who do agree with the message are forced to defend a piece of art they probably don't even *like*.

[@MrBazBake]

Equalists: "Maybe benders shouldn't rule every aspect of society and treat us like second class citizens?" Writers: "SECRET BLOOD BENDER! IT'S BENDERS ALL THE WAY DOWN!!!" Korra: "Oh, guess none of us ever have to think about this ever again."

[@BonfireAKAGhostsaltchannel]

​@@MrBazBakeI have so many things to say about this topic you do not know!

[@EvilParagon4]

Another reason why everything isn't quality of political messaging, but direction. Media should put its opposition on the defensive, not its supporters. Why are critics the ones who get to attack? Because the media decided to show off how good their ideology was, rather than do something inherently better, like criticising bad ideologies. You don't see capitalists lining up to defend Andrew Ryan in Bioshock, or Objectivists attacking going "No, actually this would literally be utopia". Bioshock was media on the offensive. No one is required to defend it, it defends itself, and critics are the ones that have to play defence rather than supporters.

[@kingace6186]

I wish Disney would internalize this.

[@ShockwaveDawn]

ATLA is a great example of something else as well that relates closely to this subject. It's a _cartoon_ but it's not _childish_ or silly. It's a well-crafted show with a mature story that can benefit all ages of viewers. It's a matter of making a good story - of making the _right_ story - rather than whether it's animated or has political messages. As long as it's honest an done correctly that's what matters to the viewers.

[@jacobbissey9311]

Yeah, the idea that children's media doesn't need to be good, or respect it's viewers' intelligence, is bizarrely pervasive, not only culturally, but disturbingly in the studios that primarily *make* children's media. A good show is a good show irrespective of target demographic, and if you respect the intelligence of the audience and actually care about producing an interesting story that communicates a useful message in a respectful way said show can have mass appeal, not only within said target demographic, but also across all demographics. ATLA, MLP:FIM, and Phineas and Ferb are the three that come to mind as being particularly good in that regard, and there's a reason those three shows are specifically *known* for having significant fan bases outside of their target demographics and have enduring die hard fans years, or even decades in one case, after they ended. Honestly, that's a big part of why a lot of cartoon kids developed into anime teenagers, because anime has historically not had the same problem with disrespecting it's child audiences (shonen especially) the way western productions aimed at the same demographics do. Everyone deserves good media targeted to them, and a good show can be enjoyed by anyone, so regardless of what story you want to tell or to whom you want to tell it, when writing and producing a story, making a *good* story should *always* be the first priority, because otherwise, what's even the point? (yes, I know the point is often money, the question was rhetorical)

[@Rennar3210]

It's only political if I disagree with the politics, unless I was too young to analyze it when I first saw it.

[@TheK.E.]

Finally someone who gets it

[@nojusticenetwork9309]

It's political regardless of if you agree with the politics. That's an ignorant as hell way of trying to act as if you don't like politics in stories

[@esbeng.s.a9761]

@@nojusticenetwork9309 That is what their argument boil down to. They scream media has gotten political because they don't like what its saying/critiqiun

[@kingofcards9516]

@@nojusticenetwork9309 just because it's political doesn't mean it should be so in your face and preachy about it.

[@Perroden]

​@@esbeng.s.a9761no what ppl mean is real world politics are being crammed into everything everywhere. Example star wars always was very political but it had its own politics. Ppl arnt upset that political themes are in media ppl are sick and tired of "THE MESSAGE" constantly being crammed down our throats and then demonizing us because we don't like it.

[@corneliahanimann2173]

Avatar has a very interesting relationship to how it presents their female characters, the one I only recently picked up on is that the firenation is the only nation that seems to not treat women as a lesser resource. Throughout the show you can see female troopers included in their fighting scenes and all, even the firelord was quick to push Zuko out of the way and let Azula take up take up the spot of future firelord. It makes sense that a literal dictatorship would not concern itself with the worth and position of women, but instead just make use of this resource that is available for war, and that Azula, the crownprincess, becomes such a powerful bender, and Mai and Ty Lee both as nonbenders prove to be very capable fighters that have a similar sense of duty for their country. It is not necessarily a redeeming quality for the firenation, but an interesting demonstration of how important the differences between men and women really are.

[@bobtheball5384]

I think it also shows the very narrative of fire nation being more advanced out of all of the other nations. I think that kinda works with how nationalist and prideful they are.

[@LifeUntilLove]

The Fire Nation is the only industrializing nation and it makes sense that a nation that is progressing technologically would do so socially as well.

[@floofzykitty5072]

This also mirrors how fascist dictatorships such as those of Stalin and Hitler actually propped up women socially in the sense that, whereas women were never sincerely seen as equals to men, these dictatorships saw women as an untapped resource in the highly utilitarian gaze of these dictators. Sexism and misogyny is inherently anti-economic; It essentially encourages half the population to produce significantly less economic output than they are capable of due to restrictive gender roles.

[@JABN97]

@@floofzykitty5072i don’t know enough about woman in Stalinist Russia, though I know that while they were famously active in the WW2 military as soldiers, I don’t know of any that became generals or ministers etc. I think the leadership was almost completely exclusively male. I do know, however, that Nazi-Germany was incredibly sexist. Women were not some equal resource to be exploited by the regime, because the regime was completely politicized and extremely socially regressive. They set up mandatory girls clubs to indoctrinate them into being “good house wives” and believed that woman should stay out home and breed as many kids as possible for ‘das fatherland’. The ideal Nazi woman was tall, blonde, bigbreasted, biddable an submissive to her husband and pregnant from 17 till 40. Farmers wive, nursing and child-rearing / teaching jobs were acceptable, but that was it. This got to the point that where American woman were fighting the ‘home front’ in the factories, Nazi leadership preferred importing unwilling male slave labor from occupied countries over allowing the ‘idle’ half of their population to work in the factories. I believe this only changed in 1943 or 1944, when they finally recognized they were absolutely losing the existential war they started, and tried drastic measures to turn the tide. TLDR: Hitler was not a rational dictator, and his regime’s treatment of women was as idiotic, ideologically motivated and counterproductive as many, many other policies of his regine

[@magicmagic4864]

It makes sense for the whole season 1 In the beginning, in Kiyoshi Iland where Sokka learns woman can be worriors, with Kataras waterbending, and later in the seasons where we see in firenation female military, where we realize how Toph is presented in Ember Island episode. Avatar tackles it all over the seasons and makesnit super seamless while doing so

[@Perroden]

I would say it's seemless but it was well done.

[@pavarottiaardvark3431]

We also learn *why* Sokka is initially so insecure in his masculinity. In Baato of the Water Tribe, we learn that all the men in his tribe left before he could go through his manhood ceremony. The war has trapped him in perpetual adolescence, stuck in a time and place where he will forever be a child, no matter what he tries to do to prove himself.

[@LuisSierra42]

@@pavarottiaardvark3431 Yeah, very rarely we get an american animated show for kids to explore the psychology of the characters in such amazing detail. That's why this show has never died down in popularity

[@aivalera]

James Stephanie Sterling once said that anything and everything is a political stance, and even the stance of not being political is a political stance, and I wholeheartedly agreed with her ever since I heard it. That's one of the reasons why I like Disco Elysium so much. The game throws things at you, then occasionally prompts you to answer in three political directions that get more and more extreme as the game goes on, along with a fourth choice that stays completely neutral that gets more and more self-degrading. Aligning yourself too much with the neutral option eventually cause your thoughts to mock you as unbelievably boring and cowardly, which it kind of is. Say what you will on the communist, facist, or ultraliberal characters, they at least have ambition, hope, and life. They have motivations, they have a reason to keep going. Even Kim, the true neutral of the entire cast and is proud of it, has moral limits that he will not stand. Meanwhile, all you're doing is saying, "I have no opinion about this whatsoever" again and again. Honestly, Disco Elysium is the best showing of political writing I've ever seen.

[@savagebooks7482]

This was my impetus to finally buy disco elysium lol

[@LucolanYT]

@@savagebooks7482 I've been watching you for years from your Bojack content and the thought of you playing Disco Elysium has absolutely enthralled me. I think you will LOVE that game. Would love to know your thoughts on it, even if it's just a tweet.

[@aivalera]

I hope you enjoy it as much as I did! @@savagebooks7482

[@TheMrCosmo]

"You have no enemies, you say? Alas, my friend, the boast is poor. He who has mingled in the fray of duty that the brave endure, must have made foes. If you have none, small is the work that you have done. You’ve hit no traitor on the hip. You’ve dashed no cup from perjured lip. You’ve never turned the wrong to right. You’ve been a coward in the fight."

[@n4l9bx]

@@savagebooks7482 I'd love to hear your thoughts on it, or watch you play it even. It's a wild ride.

[@kaitlyn__L]

I really appreciate your defining “preachy” as being about bending the narrative to feature some big moment, because I’m perfectly happy for a good story about politics to also feature a character with strong opinions about it and dialogue reflecting that fact. For instance Peaky Blinders is about the politics of the UK in the first half of the 20th century, through the lens of an organised crime family navigating those political changes. The protagonist even runs for office at one point. One of the members of that family is a pre-WW2 socialist and occasionally lectures her brothers about it, especially when the story focuses on striking workers at a factory or warehouse. That’s a perfectly natural place to have dialogue like that, and I immediately thought of it when you said your intro about how much it sucks to have a character lecturing. But I don’t think it matches your actual definition - the story doesn’t suddenly bend off its main heading to feature a political moment only to then resume the original heading, it’s deeply political all the way down.

[@LaneMaxfield]

This makes me think of The Good Place - very different vibe, but in the same vein, long moral debates stop being preaching and instead because incredibly compelling, because every single one is relevant to the situation the characters are in (understanding the moral implications of their choices so they can cope in the afterlife).

[@kaitlyn__L]

@@LaneMaxfield Good Place is a great example of integrating opportunities for literal philosophy lectures, haha. Especially because they make fun with the figurative lectures, while the actual ones are done through immersive simulations or conversations with Janet or… oh no, I’ve forgotten the name of the Architect guy! I especially loved Chidi’s despairful recitation of Nietzsche as the start of his breakdown.

[@LaneMaxfield]

@@kaitlyn__L Michael! Oh gosh, the episode where he made them all cycle through a live version of the trolley problem was amazing. One of the hardest laughs I've ever laughed in my life.

[@kaitlyn__L]

@@LaneMaxfield thank you! How could I forget that, with the biblical reference and all. His struggle and journey to understand what (human) morality even means is probably my favourite thread in the show, especially with how all sides of the afterlife don’t really get it. Having an alien being be like “wait what do you mean by ‘that would be wrong’?” is such a blatant example of the old writer trick of making a character ask whatever lets you write what you wanted to write but is pulled-off so compellingly that people were willing to watch a show basically built on it, and sad that it ended after 4 seasons.

[@aperson5657]

I honestly have a hard time taking people seriously when they say they "don't like politics in stories", because stories cannot exist without politics in them. We know stories need conflict and in the best case that conflict should somehow be relatable to the reader/watcher; so conflict from real life. And in our real life "politics" is simply the name we have for conflict. That's maybe a bit too simplified, but still how I broadly see it. Props to you for taking the stance as seriously as you do and giving the counterargument in an elaborate, empathetic way.

[@Galvatronover]

Yes your being broad the clinical term for it is the mechanics used to govern our society and community and the governing of said community

[@aperson5657]

@@Galvatronover Yeah, okay. Politics are the mechanics used to navigate conflict (in our society). Maybe that's the better explanation. I just meant to say that [relatable] conflict can't really exist without politics attached to it.

[@emberthecatgirl8796]

“I don’t like politics in stories” guys completely missing the deeply political points of Metal Gear because beeg robot will never cease to be pathetically funny.

[@skylark7921]

When you said some of the best stories carry political and/or social messages, I immediately thought of Percy Jackson. A franchise which only exists because the author wanted his neurodivergent son to feel included. Those books are brilliant *because* of the social/political message of telling kids it’s okay to be different. Yet somehow, in recent years, a lot of people seem to have totally skipped that part and go straight to raging at the diversity 🙄

[@jasonfurumetarualkemisto5917]

Good diversity: Percy Jackson Books. Diversity people tend to hate: Person Jackson Movies.

[@emberthecatgirl8796]

@@jasonfurumetarualkemisto5917There’s no movies in Ba Sing Se

[@jacobbissey9311]

Personally, I'm a bit torn on the Annabeth casting, on the one hand if the actress does a good job embodying the character that's all that matters, and Riordan made it clear that she was cast because of how she embodied the character in the auditions and not as a political move. On the other hand, at minimum the grey eyes thing is actually important in a few subtle ways (specifically because it's inherited from her divine mother and is one of Athena's Greek epithets), but that can be solved with contacts (not that I've checked the posters and trailers to see if they've done that), but in the long run, if they eventually get around to the spin-offs, her cousin Magnus Chase's appearance is actually directly plot relevant in a few places, and their shared blonde hair and sunkissed skin is supposed to be a shared trait from their mortal side, so casting a blonde, white dude would be kinda weird since they're supposed to be first cousins, but casting a black dude would be weird due to how relevant his appearance is. It also kind of rubs me the wrong way because of how much word count was devoted to describing the characters in his book in incredible detail, so you know *exactly* what they are supposed to look like, but that's just a knee-jerk reaction. I do worry that that knee-jerk reaction will taint my ability to fairly judge how good a job the actress does playing the character. I hope to enjoy the show when it comes out, but it can be hard to get properly immersed in an adaptation when it diverges significantly from the picture painted by the words of the book. So, like, yeah, ultimately the skin color doesn't *really* matter, and most of the people making a big deal about it are probably bigots, but that doesn't mean opposing a drastic change to the appearance of a character can't be a valid criticism. Like, what if Ron Weasley wasn't ginger? I feel if he had been cast that way in the Harry Potter movies then people would be just as bothered by it (barring the bigots of course, since they are way *too* bothered by it in this case), and it would be just as valid of a criticism, despite not having anything to do with race. Honestly, I care way more about Annabeth being a natural blonde than I do about her being white, it's just difficult to cast someone that isn't white but *is* a natural blonde so the two kind of go together. And situations like this also always make me want to play devil's advocate and point out the hypocrisy in that if it were a black character being cast with a white actress, there'd be WAY more backlash and WAY fewer people claiming it's justified, even if the reasoning for the casting was the same, the actress who had the best audition got the role (supposedly, and I'm choosing to believe that at least until I see her play the role for myself). And yes, I know there's plenty of historical examples of exactly that happening with minimal backlash, but I don't expect you could get away with it in today's cultural climate, nor should you. It's why I'm glad the proposed Superman movie staring a black Clark Kent got scrapped, like if you're gonna do a black Superman at least do Val-Zod, since IMO promoting racial diversity is best done via promoting characters that *are* of different races rather than by race-swapping popular characters. The Justice League cartoon did a phenomenal job of this by using the John Stewart green lantern instead of trying to make Hal Jordan or one of the others black, they took one of the less popular green lanterns and made him the default green lantern for an entire generation.

[@Adalon-]

If you have to race swap to meet a diversity quota, then your diversity sucks

[@reginaprince3020]

I would say arguably there are no stories without pollitics. Just like you can never tell a story (or history for that matter) without it being tied to a point of view

[@Soulsnatcher89]

That's exactly something people forget, there's no story without politics. Freedom, gender, right to live, war, just living life, it's all political in some respect. People will say that something like the new game Palia isn't political but at the end of the day actions are tied to reasons and thus tied to politics. The true reason most people say they think 'everything is political now' is because they were 1) Too young to understand then or 2) Don't agree with it thus saying it's against their views and somehow that makes it political

[@vincentbatten4686]

If the politics are invisible, then the scale of the politics are probably more narrow than most people are used to perceiving or they simply reflect the political status quo. People seemingly only recognize something is political when characters are challenging the status quo.

[@Soulsnatcher89]

@vincentbatten4686 a particular loved FF game is FF Tactics yet one of the four most political FF games tied with FF7, FF10 and FF12. People in the fanbase often say nowadays "why did you guys make FF political now" while saying "FF7 BEST FF"

[@Paradox484]

​@@Soulsnatcher89lmao, FF7 is literally a story of eco terrorists fighting against Big Brother before their reckless mining destroys the planet. Shit would get lambasted if released now.

[@Soulsnatcher89]

@@Paradox484the worst part is TECHNICALLY IT DID, we got the remake and it focused ENTIRELY on that portion of the story with 0 complaints. We even got a brand new Yuffie centered story and I heard no one complaining "OMG woke, political, female MC wtf is this" or anything. The wealth of double standards is beyond stupid. People just need to stop

[@bobbybooshay5388]

I agree with alot said in this video, but one problem I have alot of it hinges on the assumption the criticism of "too political" is always coming in good faith. A lot of it isn't and is notably aimed toward only one side of the political aisle. The Mario movie somehow got called political propaganda by a large swath of people with political agendas and large platforms, so I have trouble believing the same people wouldn't immediately call Avatar too political if it came out today.

[@bobtheball5384]

I really agree with your sentiment since the Mario movie only got called that too cause of what? Peach and Luigi switching roles...? In a movie about the bond between two brothers? Where Mario is literally the protagonist?

[@WhitePaintbrush]

Eh, I think there is merit to the criticism of swapping Peach and Luigi’s roles. Personally I don’t care all _that_ much and I enjoyed the movie regardless, but I expected and would have preferred to see the Bros. adventuring together and bonding. It’s not really the fact that Peach got a bigger role that’s disappointing, it’s the fact that Luigi, a more interesting and fan-favorite character, had to be sacrificed for it. “Too political” is garbage as a standalone argument but I do kinda see where it’s coming from in this case. I doubt the decision to change this particular part of the source material was changed because it made for a better story, but because the “damsel in distress” doesn’t fly these days. So in that way, it does feel like the “political messaging” (for lack of a better term, ugh) actively harmed the story. Or at least, prevented people from getting the story they were hoping to see.

[@heavennunya809]

Not to mention, I'm not against seeing Peach in a more active role, but I always liked that Peach showed more feminine strength. She wasn't a kickass powerhouse. I played the old paper Mario recently, and while she was kidnapped and held hostage, she wasn't a Damsel in Distress. She escaped her room, multiple times, to gather information to send to Mario. She may not have the strength to fight her way out of this mess, but she is capable to doing a large part of helping by gathering info on where the things Mario needs to save ARE. I jsut don't quite feel like Mario movie Peach is the Peach I grew up with. And this happens with a lot of strong feminine characters, as in new iterations they are turned into being strong in a more masculine way.

[@bobtheball5384]

@@WhitePaintbrush Personally I think you're being too charitable toward the people who called the Mario movie woke and or assuming good faith. I think as well that at least one of the reasons why Peach had a bigger role than Luigi was probably because the plot they went with made more sense for Mario to save Luigi instead of some random princess.

[@bobtheball5384]

@@heavennunya809 If you don't mind me asking, how can you be strong in a masculine and or in a feminine way? Is being masculine just being in the action? And being feminine is support? What makes both those roles inherently feminine and or masculine? At the end of the day isn't being a support or an active offensive party just a role detached from gender attributes?

[@fencserx9423]

Also, can we emphasize that Katara didn’t diminish the work of the healers. She didn’t say the work of the women was useless, or lesser, or unimportant. And she LEARNED it, because it was useful. But she also wanted to learn to fight. She didn’t want to be one or the other, she wanted to be well rounded.

[@ApostleOfDarkness]

Being political and having politics in shows isn't the problem, it's when the politics become more important than writing a good story, when the writer decides to lecture you like you're a naughty child that doesn't know anything instead of "show don't tell", they do the complete opposite

[@tabithaalphess2115]

Especially when it's clear the writer has no idea what they're talking about and hasn't taken the time to explore the nuances or flaws of the idea they're trying to convey

[@happilyevernever4289]

Exactly this. I hate it when they forget about the story altogether. I feel disrespected as an audience when they try to pull shit like this and act like they're making good media.

[@growingupwithdisney]

that a big issue I had with the Barbie movie, although I don't believe it is the worst example, the way they tried to force the lesson and tell me about how hard women have it was just annoying and forced, theres ways you can naturally integrate it into the story without giving me a long/boring speech

[@michaellane5381]

​@@growingupwithdisneyhonestly I felt the opposite about the Barbie movie, Ken transplanted the "Patriarchy" into Barbieland because KEN had no purpose, no dreams, no direction, no house(in Barbieland), so ultimately the feminist message of that movie for his storyline amounted to a dual message about the folly of letting boys grow up without dreams and women becoming the sole power brokers in men's place, While Barbies storyline culminates in her knowing all the shit she has to deal with as a "real girl" and choosing that "life" anyways. It wasn't "Just" a feminist movie plot, it has layers if you ignore the superficial.

[@dxcSOUL]

It's only a problem if you make it a problem. Voltaire had no problems making either. He wrote stories that were all about political philosophical ideas with silly plots... Voltaire's Candide is among one of my favorite stories of all time despite the plot being absurd. It was all a silly story to drive a singular point home. People who think like you do view art as entertainment and nothing more. There are different types of stories, written for different purposes. Stop trying to gatekeep art.

[@real23lions]

Some writers forget that you need to entertain regardless of the political message. The Abbot Elementary creator argued this in Lebron's Uninterrupted. She explained it well in the video.

[@happilyevernever4289]

Yup.

[@dankim7831]

At first I used to think Yue and Sokka's story was useless. It just felt like another empty romance shmutz for a male character to chase after. But once I got older I realized her death wasn't meant to just be a sad beat to the story; it was her decision to be free from the patriarchal society, AND it also served as a big step for Sokka in understanding what social structures like the northern tribe's can do to everyone, as you said in this video. He didn't rly learn this fully yet, but that's also very realistic. No one understands something on the first try. He had to have this lesson drilled into his head multiple times over the course of the story, making progress one step at a time

[@MarceloAAR]

Just the other day i was thinking how watching avatar when i grew up essentially made my guidelines for life in morality and ethics. And you explain perfectly how it does so, it's a well made story that also teaches young people true aspects of the world they live in, there's sexism, racism, classism, all sorts of ism's. But that doesn't stop anyone from making the right and correct choices and stand by them when pushed back, not in an aggresive confrontative way, but in understanding one another through listening to each other's problems and coming to a compromise with meaningful dialogue. Avatar should be taught everywhere in the world haha

[@TempestKnight16]

My bet is that when the netflix show comes out, even if all of katara arc is done exactly the same as the show, people will complain about how woke it is.

[@Ferytowa]

I'm afraid that in the Netflix version Katara can beat Paku without any training..

[@isaacledesma2557]

this comment aged like milk

[@陳潔明-w6y]

​@@Ferytowa She didn't defeat Pakku in the end

[@ParadoxThePsycho]

@@isaacledesma2557was it actually woke? Oh noooo what will people do without the original show? Oh… it still exits? Amazon prime? Okay well people got mad about Sokka not being sexist so I know one part of this is right.

[@isaacledesma2557]

@@ParadoxThePsycho the problem is Katara in the live action doesn't do ANYTHING and was made a docile and impotent wallflower instead of the actual hotheaded badass that she is in the original show. That's character assassination.

[@thehellhound8582]

Avatar is really political, but focuses on making it plot relevant and organic. The entire war is both a masterclass about colonialism and fascism to a certain extent as it was made to model imperial japan, but the philosophical conflict between Iroh and Ozai which is central to Zuko's character arc and is all about toxic masculinity. Where honor and phisical strenth are the things men should strive towards with a might make right attitude, where emotions other than anger are seen as weakness and should be purged. Compared to Iroh who embodies healthy masculinity and values honesty in both speech and emotions, humility, kindness and forgiveness. We see Zuko struggle with choosing between a philoshophy that causes him to lash out, hate, bottle up emotions and self destruct chasing after the love and approval of a man that would be disgusted at the idea of love and would literally burn the world just so he could rule over the ashes. Compared to Iroh who loves him no matter his failings, let's him deal with his inner conflict on his own pace and feel unhindered, who would remain loyal even after being betrayed believing that you will make the right decision eventually and support you the entire way. politics in stories aren't bad, the message just needs to be natural and ingrained in the story and explore both sides to let the audiance come to the conclusion on their own. If you have to spell out the lesson, either you're making a show for toddelers or you suck at writing.

[@uskthedwarf]

great video, one of my pet peeves is when people look at bad writing, and call it bad because its "woke" or whatever, instead of talking about the writing issues. it's sloppy criticism, and its all too common (cough* critical-drinker cough* cough*) keep up the good work!

[@berengustav7714]

And Nerdrotic is insufferable.

[@Galvatronover]

You don’t even watch his channel he goes into depth on his problems with media

[@heavennunya809]

Well, tbf, part of the issue of the whole woke thing is the ham-fisted politics that aren't well integrated. They aren't well integrated because they don't belong, they were forced in for political brownie points. However, I think a large part of this issue ultimately roots in the fact most modern writers suck. We're spitting out the same stories over and on top of that forcing modern politics into them without a lot of thought. Also, because so many of the mainstream writers are left wing (which isn't me shitting on them), and the way our politics are rn, many people aren't giving FAIR representations of the other argument. A great example is turning Jordan Peterson into the Red Skull. That was COMPLETELY inappropriate. Not to say the right wing doesn't do it either, but there's a lot less right wing story writers in the mainstream.

[@陳潔明-w6y]

​@@Galvatronover Lol, have you watched Critical Drinker's contents? His track record shows that he has been practically hellbent on finding wokeness to complain about on too many occasions. In his Across the Spider-Verse review, he complained about straight white male being emasculated simply because Peter wore pink and acted goofy. In his Sweet Baby Inc video, he talked about straight white male being replaced by a PoC character simply because Peter voluntarily took a break while Miles continued to be Spider-Man. Peter didn't even quit... In his Peacemaker review, he actually complained about "The Message" simply because a female character wanted to have her personal space and a racist character... was written as a racist character. Hell, he even attributed to the phrase in the film ”The Science Denier" to real world anti-vex protestors even though there was actually no evidence in this. In his Midsummer review, he went so off-based and misinterpreted the entire film that even one of his audience who said she usually loved his content told him he was being woman-hating on that one. Or his review of the Boys season 2, where he complained about the show being on-the-nose with its political theme because Stormfront was a nazi and she intended to manipulate the US into being a fascist regime...

[@陳潔明-w6y]

​​@@heavennunya809 And yet we have people calling Dead Space and Resident Evil 4 remake "woke". There was a dedicated Steam discussion on why RE4 remake was woke. Damn, even Starfield was woke for a character creation feature... The whole "woke" has been bastardized that it has lost its meaning... Hell, it has already lost its meaning when it was changed from the actual, original one about black people during the Civil Right movement being aware of societal flaws.

[@EzaleaGraves]

I am so glad you brought up the arranged marriage, mostly because that's the exact kind of plot that would have at some point been political, but now it's just an as a storytelling device. There are a lot of examples of people nowadays blaming political messages for bad storytelling, but so often when I hear people upset about "the politics" it's just because there's a gay character. I have several friends who got upset that The Last Of Us show "got political" in episode 3 by showing two men in love. That's not political, that's just life

[@Yesnomu]

I'm not the target audience really (to me, most stories have some kind of politics to them, because politics are really just morality applied to society), but I really appreciate you making videos like this!

[@denisedarland3345]

This video actually bought tears to my eyes in how eloquently it was worded. I could not have said any of this better. You nailed it.

[@ThePiachu]

Yeah, it would be hard to have a story that doesn't have any politics. Everything expresses politics, just that people don't complain when those are politics they agree with. They don't cry foul when you have a nuclear family unit because that's "normal", while a same sex marriage is not...

[@VoonNBuddies]

Politics and political themes of imperialism and colonialism are central to the story of Avatar to such an extent that the dates of events in the universe are universally referred to in terms of BG and AG. Those being Before Genocide and After Genocide. The three main characters of season one are all survivors of explicit ethnic cleansing. The season ends with the victim of one (essentially) successful genocide taking on the material form of the spirit of another culture that is facing its own eminent genocide and putting a stop to it. One of the episodes of book one involves a group of earth benders placed in a fire nation prison camp as consequence of them being earth benders and features the vocal talents of a man who literally lived through being placed in an American internment camp as consequence of being Japanese. The show is unflinchingly political from word one. And that's especially impressive when you factor in that it was created during the height of the Bush administration.

[@dfolz1101]

Would love to hear him address why Toph, although crazy powerful isn't actually a mary sue and why

[@Soulsnatcher89]

She's blind, arrogant, learned things from what's essentially a blind species and applied it to life. She took what should have been a weakness (and is at times) and turned it into a strength. Water, sand, being in mid air, they all stop her. She ends up fighting with her feet shuffling on the ground or keeps one foot planted before stomping the other because of her need to be grounded. She's strong, but has faults, she's not perfect, not a mary sue. She doesn't have an answer to everything

[@NapaCat]

Power =/= mary sueness. She has moments of weakness, a character arc, and doesn't warp the story to glorify herself.

[@sovereigndeleon]

My all-time favorite reminder is that a message is conveyed masterfully when it leaves the audience with questions rather than answers.

[@danlott2814]

Dig it, bro. Thanks for the video. I think that the BEST stories tend to address and speak to principles rather than trying to respond directly to specific circumstances like politics. They create fictional settings/characters/events that illustrate more universal themes. In this way those stories can more effectively open us readers/listeners to change or adjust our own thoughts and opinions where we might otherwise be overburdened by circumstances (societal pressures, experiences, trauma.) But of course that's not to say that a well principled story could not also get very, very, specific (i.e. political) once a well-principled foundation has been constructed.

[@karen.johana]

just ran into this channel! nice! wholeheartedly agree. it really pisses me off when people complain that they dont want politics in the entertainment, without realizing that a lot of the things they love to consume is political. it really makes me wonder about people's media literacy and how they consume content...

[@obinnaiwudike7644]

Actually it’s deeper than this. People love fights , action intelligence and going through catastrophes and Varied experiences but they don’t like it in isolation. What bring an individual’s attention to a story might be a concept that they liked that isn’t politics or a character they respect gaining capabilities or vast worlds. People need to remind themselves not to forget entertainment aspects of their stories and balancing it so it isn’t overly intellectualizing as specific aspect.😂

[@PearseNation]

It's wild how upset people get at political (and sometimes just ethical) storytelling.

[@typemasters2871]

I have even some of these upset people call films political just because it shows a minority group EXISTING, and in those instances it’s more telling that the person is only making those complains because they saw something they would wish never existed

[@Perroden]

@@typemasters2871 lmao, well ya if try to put black ppl in middle age europe don't get upset when ppl complain. Or when you change charecters and ppl into minorities. Even minorities hate they shit. Ppl don't call it political just because they are racist😑

[@Perroden]

Ppl get upset with real world politics being injected into everything. And not only that but forcing left wing ideology then call us horrible disgusting things because we don't like it.

[@vibangigan5336]

The same people that claim to hate politics in their movies also watch the 24 hour news cycle nonstop and use it as their main personality trait.

[@arktype586]

In a story, everything is political. Choosing to explore a theme is a political position, choosing to ignore something is political as well. Good video, i really liked it.

[@brutusmagnuson315]

Hot take: all art is political; it’s just to what degree that varies. Having a conflict itself requires expressing a political belief, even if it’s simple and non-controversial like “killing a bunch of people for money is wrong”

[@hadesedits1501]

Agree idk how people think art and politics never cross

[@joshuasgameplays9850]

I mean there’s a few exceptions, I’d argue that most abstract art isn’t political, since by design it doesn’t convey any specific meaning.

[@Anubiszz512zz]

A great video and a beautiful message. Honestly it even recontextualizes the entire culture war in pop culture. It's things like this that break down the biases in both sides and let's people better analyze the stories they love (and hate)

[@auto117666]

Dang it! … Now I need to go watch Avatar.

[@vincentbatten4686]

It came out when I was a teenager, and I skipped it for the longest time. I finally got around to watching it a couple of years ago, and it floored me. It is unfortunately bogged down by a fairly slow start, but if you watch book 1's first episode and then the wind temple episodes near the beginning, you can skip to the last 5 episodes at the end that cover what was discussed here and then watch the show from there on out. It really is one of the best shows, and I wish I hadn't dragged my feet on it for so long.

[@TheZombieButler]

You won't regret it. Watch it and then wait a month and watch it again. You'll see bits you missed. It does have a slow start keep with it . The parts that seem slow in the first watching are actually the mortar curing so the beautiful house can be created. I'm jealous I wish I could watch it the first time again. Have fun.

[@alexdoesthings2875]

I can't imagine Avatar coming out today. That storm of bad faith criticism on both sides of the aisle would be horrific to dig through.

[@n4l9bx]

It would be such a painful shitstorm. It'll be interesting to see the shouting when the live-action thing happens XD

[@emmyjr1231]

​@@n4l9bxFebruary can't get here quick enough.

[@jeremymossi5795]

You hit it directly within two minutes. Heavy handed politics without an ounce of ethical or philosophical weight behind them are a blight on writing. We're stuck in a gross time period where people have falsely equated politics with virtue. Writers are turning political slogans and party platform points into characters and crying when the audience fails to connect.

[@TAMThomasTAM]

"You're not against political stories, you're against *bad* political stories" is such a great point, but there's also another thing that makes people think they hate political stories, *'bad' politics* themselves. I've seen many people critique or just get mad at good, even great stories, all because "they make it political" and I've seen people discuss stories and point out the political themes and others getting angry that they're "ruined the story by making it political". These people often complain about politics in stories, some stories most people love or even they themselves enjoyed until the political messaging was revealed to them, when in truth they don't hate political stories, they hate stories with politics that they disagree with. There's stories that tackle political issues and are really well written, but come to conclusions that are either naïve or shortsighted, cynical or nihilistic, or even just flat out morally wrong from the perspective of certain viewers. If you engage in and enjoy a story, but then at the end, or some time after, you realise what the political messages of the story were, and they fly in the face of your own personal politics and perception of the world, it can really bring down the story for you, even ruin it. And that's actually totally fine. You can dislike a well written story because the themes go against your values and beliefs, that is fair, it's your own subjective opinion. But a lot of people seem to attribute the problem with the story being political, not the story having bad politics. Of course, whether the politics are bad or not come down to you, politics are subjective too, and that informs so much of what we like and don't like. But if someone has, in your opinion, good politics and they watch a story with bad politics, they're not going to like the story, and if they watch a story with good politics they might like it (all other aspects of said story and presentation notwithstanding), and if someone has, in your opinion, bad politics and they watch a story with good politics then they're noting going to like it, and if they watch one with bad politics then they may like it. But instead of pointing out that it was just the specific politics alone they weren't a fan of, they attribute the issue to the concept of stories being political, claiming stories should be entirely apolitical (though you won't hear them saying the same about stories they think are great that have politics that they disagree with). You see this quite a lot, actually. Stories that have political messages that the general audience agrees with is often considered apolitical, or rather stories with political messages that one particular audience member agrees with is often considered by that audience member to be apolitical. This is why you see some bigots thinking games or shows or films have gone political when they include characters who are people of colour, gay or lesbian people, trans people, foreigners, and even people of lesser-represented faiths. That goes against the bigots personal politics and thus it is political to them. And so they may complain that the writers have "made it political", when it's not the concept of political stories that they hate, it's the specific politics in the stories. When I was a dumb kid in high school, a friend of mine wrote a great short story, at least from my dumb kid perspective (if I read it today, it probably wouldn't be as good as it was then), and our group loved it. When we showed our English teacher, she told us that it was a good story, save for one big thing. She said it was structurally perfect, the characters are consistent, the world is rich, the dialogue was decent, the descriptions great, it was a well written story. But, the themes were not good. The story depicted the end as a happy ending, but the world had been transformed into basically a kind of fascist state by the characters. We were kids who didn't understand political implications yet, we hadn't read 1984 or anything like that, so to us, having basically a cop in every room sounded like a great way to deter crime and create a utopia. We were very stupid And upon learning this, we also came to hate the story too. The teacher told is it was well written, she had complimented most parts of it, she even said that the conclusion was supported by the rest of the story and the characters beliefs and all that, but we didn't want to read it again because we now knew that it revolves around bad politics. The kid who wrote it basically binned it after that, and I remember one of the kids in our group absolutely hated that teacher for the rest of our time in that school because "she ruined the story by making it political", when all she really did was point out the politics baked into the story that none of us had really given much thought to, and in doing so she revealed the flaws of the story. I'm sure to a fascist, the story would probably be great, but we're not fascists (as far as the authorities are aware) so we didn't like it anymore. It wasn't that the story was poorly written, it was that the political themes were simply morally wrong in our eyes, and so that ruined it. This is just a long way of saying that it's not just poorly implemented politics or poorly written political stories that make people believe that they are against political stories, it's also the political stances themselves that can make an audience member think they are against political stories. We all love political stories in truth, and we should be more aware of that, but it's the specific political takes that we may find issues with, and that may be a key part of the story and may sway your opinion of said story, and that is totally okay; the problem is when you attribute the problem not with the bad politics in stories, but with the very concept of politics in storytelling.

[@sparxstreak02]

12:49 One more point that I think made Pakku relent in teaching Katara is the fact she was the granddaughter of his lost love & that tradition had caused him to lose Kanna as she clearly felt stifled by her tribe’s lifestyle & whether or not she loved Pakku (which was never entirely clear as Katara claimed she didn’t but later on the pair married anyway) it obviously wasn’t enough to make her stay. We also don’t know if all the other female waterbenders of the North Pole are suddenly allowed to learn combat waterbending or if Pakku just made an exception for Katara, as when we see her sparring Pakku’s other students, they’re all boys.

[@Prototype-357]

My worry with how badly things like inclusivity or feminism are handled by most entertainment nowadays is that I think in the long term it's gonna do more harm than good, it's supposed help all of us live together but fiction with these themes usually has such a "us vs them" undercurrent that it makes me doubtful of how effective it will be in showing us how to live together.

[@walgekaaren1783]

Sokka also had Suki, the Female Kyoshi Warrior. In there the clash was more personal, because He had to admit that he can't do everything alone, for being a Man, or then he learned swordmanship Piandao, which was one of the best character arcs. Because Sokka had to muster up courage and tell that he's from the Water Tribe, to find out, not all in the Fire tribe hate them. Sokkas ark is the perfect growing up ark for boys. You have the silly childhood, the teens and the maturing. Thank you for your time and effort in giving your insight.

[@ivanbluecool]

I'm honestly surprised we didn't get katara selling her services or sokka trying to use this to make money as they go broke a lot. Then Katara could say "I won't charge people affected by the war with the little money they have" and heal everyone in the area that way to show she'd rather starve than take advantage of people like the fire nation. While katara was very angry about being taught to heal and not fight by her future grandpa. That skill comes in more handy than she think and she definitely should have said something about it as it saved aang

[@Ajbarili]

Eloquent and informative as always dude.thank you!

[@jonathanhancock470]

See, the funny thing about avatar is…. it is extremely feminist. It’s basically cannon in the story that the most talented young earth bender, water bender, and fire bender are all women. Toph, Katara, and Azula are all prodigies in every sense of the word despite their age and gender (and despite Toph’s blindness, or Katara’s low birth and lack of formal training). The show often goes out of its way to show these young women keeping up with and surpassing more experienced male benders, especially in Toph’s case.

[@kaitlyn__L]

I would add in Toph’s case it’s not even really in spite of anything. Her blindness is explicitly said to be the reason she’s so skilled at it, because she learned (from the giant moles) to _feel_ the earth rather than just look at it. Something she’d already gotten a leg-up on from having to do it on a more rudimentary level to avoid tripping over a rock and so forth. She has an inherent advantage when learning that style from where she started as a ~10 year old, over a sighted earthbender who’d have to start from scratch. That’s a huge part of why blind fans of the show like her so much! (Something similar happens with that inventor boy in the wheelchair, even though he only appears a couple times. He’s the only glider to keep up with Aang, and he was already accustomed to shifting his weight in his chair in a way the ambulatory gliders weren’t. IRL, people experienced at kayaking or canoeing adjust much more quickly to a wheelchair for similar reasons!)

[@notsafeforchurch]

I think there's a lot more involved with feminism than simply the inclusion of competent female characters in media. And I don't think that a piece of media having competent female characters makes it "extremely feminist" by default.

[@michaelriverside1139]

I never got Katara as a prodigy, heck, she's utterly annoyed at Aang being a prodigy at waterbending during Book 1, but rather, as being quite creative, such as using her sweat to break free of prison at one point, in a sense, she's even an opposite to her brother who makes up for his lack of talent with strategy, she does so with improvisation... Toph is not really a prodigy either, but a good example of how handicapped people can develop other senses and in her case, it's even justified with the worldbuilding as it explains the first Earthbenders were giant, subterranean dwelling creatures known as Badgermoles, it also goes without mention that she literally used her facade as a prim, blind girl to train in secret... Even Azula can be contested to be a prodigy, for it is hinted that she was the result of eugenics pairing the fire nation nobles with the avatar's fire nation related descendants, yet the show also alludes to firebending requiring more control rather than channeling like the other three, Azula is emotionally unstable due to the strained relationship with her mother, who only married the royal family out of the previously mentioned experiment / prophecy and desperately wanted a way out... Man, this show is truly legendary in worldbuilding and plot, as even the simplest of explanations cannot cover everything!!!

[@andreluislimaa]

thank you for putting this so eloquently!

[@jcorey333]

Something that you sort of addressed but never really talked about, that I think is vital to this topic, is the idea of prioritizing theme over story. Avatar made the story more important than the theme. Many of the movies people dislike for being political make the theme more important than the story. If it's a choice between What makes sense story and character wise, and what pushes the theme, they choose the theme. That's what a lot of people dislike.

[@sasukeism6881]

i love discussions like this. people forget a lot of the time that politics is also a branch of philosophy, so it can’t really be separated from art, even if the creator doesn’t intend for it to be political. this quote from ocean vuong comes to mind: “They will tell you that to be political is to be merely angry, and therefore artless, depthless, “raw,” and empty. They will speak of the political with embarrassment, as if speaking of Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny. They will tell you that great writing “breaks free” from the political, thereby “transcending” the barriers of difference, uniting people towards universal truths. They’ll say this is achieved through craft above all. Let’s see how it’s made, they’ll say-as if how something is assembled is alien to the impulse that created it. As if the first chair was hammered into existence without considering the human form.”

[@JGburneraccount]

This issue is, in avatar the water tribe wanting to make men warriors and women healers makes sense right and so that sexism can be explained but in so many modern show and television its about putting men down in order to raise up women if avatar was made today I wouldn't be surprised if they did tha-- oh shit Netflix is doing exactly that next year.

[@ServantofErra]

“You’re against bad political stories” is too charitable. While it’s true that many stories attempting to tackle political material suck, the people complaining are often so completely entrenched in their own political ideologies that they no longer consider their own political belief systems to be political.

[@hanibalpoptart6245]

Agreed, I don't think people who get angry about their favorite series casting a brown person or a gay person are just "against bad political stories"

[@Bacchasnail]

I want more politics in my media. Honestly, give me a whole political show. Give me a political anime. I loved the politics in the star wars prequels

[@Perroden]

Those arnt the kind of politics ppl are upset about.

[@Bacchasnail]

@@Perroden i know. I gave that example but i meant the kind where gamers get mad too. The only ones i dont like is where its obvious the person is just trying to destroy the subject matter because they have a personal vendetta

[@nuclearsimian3281]

Its why Zuko vs Azula during Sozin's Comet is really the best fight scene of your childhood, or could be.

[@Anme96]

People don’t have a problem with politics in the story. They have a problem with propaganda. Which is is easy to spot, specially when the story goes to the extreme to favor their characters that represent their views and antagonize those who don’t agree with them 100%. adding the fact that most of those social commentary don’t add anything to the story (or have nothing to do with it entirely). Propaganda movie/show are boring, people want to be entertained, not lectured.

[@cliffwarden5934]

I don't care that fiction has politics in it, i care that when it is the primary focus of the fiction to the detriment of everything else.

[@CiviSgtButtercup]

A good story with shoe horned political messaging will be no less a good story. A bad story woth shoe horned political message will be the same bad story regardless.

[@ThePrincessCH]

It's kind of odd that the Water Tribes were so strict, given that Iroh described water as the element of change.

[@happilyevernever4289]

Irony.

[@_.-._.-Y0K0-._.-._]

To be fair, water that changes is from rivers and stuff, while the North was quite literally a fortess of ice where water only could flow through pre-made channels.

[@jaimeerindy4573]

It was so well done how they had Katara lose (because she's a literal child fighting against a Grand Master as you mentioned), but she really puts up a fight and the point is that Paku realizes it's unfair to not give her the option to learn. Not only is she gifted, but that's what she WANTS to do. He would be denying the world of a great waterbender, and by the end of the series she does truly become one of the best benders and fighters in the show.

[@NonAnonD]

I somewhat disagree with the thesis of this video. I don’t think anyone likes sloppy storytelling of any type, and the same goes for political stories. But saying people are fine with it if it’s done well somewhat excuses some of the ridiculousness that happens these days. Like pushback on black dwarves the second they’re cast, before a show is even out. Furthermore, Avatar coming out in todays age would probably also get flack online for portraying sexism in Katara’s storyline. Times have changed (and gotten more terminally online.)

[@kingofcards9516]

The black dwarves weren't justified. Tolkien CLEARLY based middle earth on Saxon, Norse, germanic etc. Areas.

[@mattt2277]

Could be argued that changing the ethnicity of established races is as he put it, infantilizing minorities and disrespectful to both them and the author. There were many ways to have gotten around it, but they chose "just accept it, you bigots." That's the bad writing that's mentioned. An easy fix could have been that since elves are magical, his skin darkened to help him combat the sun as he spent a century or two in the desert with the haradrim. But also, tbf, that show was atrocious from the word go. Characters were changed, writing was bad, pacing was chaotic, plot armor was super thick, etc etc. Rings of power was just a complete disaster.

[@DutchessSarahJ]

So the WHOLE of middle earth only has white “inspired” beings on it? It’s impossible to argue why black/brown entities show up in fantasy BECAUSE in a lot of consumers fantasies, black people don’t exist. 😶‍🌫️

[@marlas.s.]

A badly written white and male character: oh, he was badly written A badly written minority and/or female character: wokeness ruins everything 😤 they should leave politics out of it

[@Lack_Of_Interest]

@@kingofcards9516 : _"The black dwarves weren't justified."_ Yeah, you can make that argument, but using- _"Tolkien CLEARLY based middle earth on Saxon, Norse, germanic etc. Areas."_ -is not a good argument since there were Africans arounds via slavery, travels, pilgrimage, etc. If anything, the better argument would be to say that it should be made clearer that Disa is from another dwarf clan. Perhaps distinguish her as a Firebeard, and show why the marriage between her and Durin might be seen as unorthodox. This way it could be explained why she looks different and establish that other clans hold various cultural values that might conflict.

[@conorkrystad4634]

This is really excellent video, you only ever release videos you're proud of. I can tell you're very good at your full time job as a script editor.

[@savagebooks7482]

Appreciate this! Thank you.

[@MrAwsome944]

I've never seen your videos before today, but I'm pretty sure I'm about to binge your whole channel 🤙

[@savagebooks7482]

Thanks for the support I really appreciate it!

[@TheZombieButler]

I agree completely May i say you explained your thoughts with eloquentce and aplomb. Another fine take, thank you.

[@artfire28]

If politics mix well with the story, why not? Take for war anime like Gundam Seed and Attack on Titan. Those two have both geo and identity politics at the same series told well in narrative form.

[@NeoPokebonz]

A soul of culture! ❤❤

[@305Independent]

This shows the importance of allegories. You should NEVER make political fiction where you're using ACTUAL real-life groups: Blacks/Whites, Republicans/Democrats, anything like that. That just serves to splinter and alienate your audience. Characters and factions in political stories need to be given fictional identities to be universally impactful.

[@kaitlyn__L]

@@305Independent never is an awfully strong word. Allegories are more flexible and that’s good to keep in mind, but sometimes the allegory is so clear that everyone knows what it means anyway. In those cases I think it’s better to just admit that’s what you’re writing about - it can be especially interesting to have a character who is from the fantasy allegory of that experience to also experience the real issue and compare and contrast in the resulting narrative. Toph is blind and that’s a real disability, but Avatar also compares against fictional impairments like a character being unable to bend the elements anymore.

[@heavennunya809]

@@kaitlyn__L I think it is something you have to be very careful about. Esp in scenarios like we have now where too many people are pushing the SAME political narratives badly, if you try to be too on the nose you'll end up lost in the sea, even if your is well written, because it's JUST another one. There's a reason why people are getting sick of the racebending (esp when it's hypocritical), for example, and even if your racebend in a way that might be beneficial (like this actually being the best actor for the role), because it's being forced in so many other stories, you're just going to be seen as another story racebending for brownie points.

[@thedarkangel613]

"You're not against political stories. You're against BAD political stories." I definitely get this statement. But there are people who just Hate that a certain kind of person is in a movie. So They are against specific social stories, regardless of how good it is

[@aaronharkins4331]

I recently realized Mulan was ridiculous. She goes from being a farmers daughter to beating a lifelong soldier in half of a fairly sexist song through the power of determination. As a kid I didn’t notice, now it’s a huge flaw in an otherwise intriguing story.

[@michaellane5381]

Sokka's story also had parallels with his bookending relationship with Suki, as in her culture it was females who were the elite warriors, so when this relationship happened he was able to relate to both the unfairness and the nature of his sisters plight, and then later reference his own struggles to Suki "my ex girlfriend is the moon"😅

[@ElijahStormblessed]

I'm planning on taking a class next semester that I think is basically exactly this, visual sff as a vehicle for social justice, or something like that. I'm excited for it!

[@LaneMaxfield]

Really well said! People are too quick to agree with the general statement "writing should/shouldn't be political" without looking at the message in the context of the overall narrative. If "good writing shouldn't be political" means "I shouldn't be put in a position to empathize with the struggles of someone with a different background or point of view from mine" then I disagree - good writing is absolutely political. If "good writing shouldn't be political" means "you shouldn't break character, bend the rules of the world and interrupt narrative pacing to deliver a message" then I agree - good writing is apolitical.

[@kaitlyn__L]

Yeah there’s such a wide variety of different implicit meanings of “being political” in this comments section. So far, outside of your second definition (which is the closest to the one given midway through the video about lecturing) the comments represent: -Explorations of the structure of power, but not about power itself or schemes to steal it under that structure. - Any and all expressions of power and coercion in a story - Certain identities being present at all - Certain identities being tokenised in cheap moments - Stories focusing on the plight of certain identities -Any story which makes explicit its real world implication for any statement about the world, rather than relying on purely flexible allegory And I’m probably missing some. It’s fascinating.

[@fridaylambda3494]

I would say another common mistake is that most writers try to only show politics as a one-sided ordeal. That somehow or other the 'right' side is the only side we need to understand to fully grasp the concept and why it's 'objectively' wrong. These writers typically don't spend time exploring how or why these political structures are in place or preferred by people who aren't the protagonist is. It creates an unrealistic and forced example of how the political view is 'wrong' without establishing any complexity. It's especially a problem when it's clear that the writer isn't taking any time to understand or respect the alt. perspective and is obsessed with making it objectively 'wrong.' Korra's version of politics is an unfortunate situation like this. It's clear the writers want to establish how capitalistic democracy is a better system and way of life for the people in Republic City. However, they don't want to spend any world building time on establishing how the original system was created and its advantages to further highlight its shortcomings. It especially becomes a problem when the equalists (which represent some form of socialism) aren't allowed to show us the so-called bending suppression. Instead, we're to assume that non-benders are being oppressed and to oppose it without any justification. If anything, we see more bender exploitation as Mako and Bolin are living closer to the poverty line and benders are predominantly shown as the working class, not the upper class. Even beyond that, it clashes with the World Building as the city is powered by Benders. The electric power companies are producing a sizable amount of electricity through lightning bending. What's going to happen when this sizable and free source of power is erases by Amon? In this regard, the politics are clashing with the world building and you can see it collapsing as the politics can't hold up. Then, it comes across as preaching the idea that Democracy is superior without proving that it is a better system (especially as the show goes on and avoids showing any of the cracks in Democracy and the flaws it produces). It simplifies the political problem as always 'the guy in charge' rather than the systems that gave that person power. In Avatar, though, the issue is shown as more complex and is resolved through compromise and change rather than simply tossing out the old political view, calling it inferior, and forcing Democracy onto a world that doesn't need it (or at the very least needs time to create the concept as there's no West to provide the concept). It's a case where the politics end up coming across as preachy rather than realistically taking deep political divides.

[@ebonyblack4563]

Very well put. Weaving politics into a story is something you have to decide early on, your world needs to support it because politics shapes your world and thus the story.

[@jeffreystone8974]

I am really trying to remember more details from the interview but Joss Wheaton had an interview on feminism in his writing and he said "It's not about writing women as exceptionally powerful or writing a woman the same way you would a man, It's imagining a world where womens rights arent an issue and using that as part of your setting." I can't explain why but that really spoke to me

[@85Funkadelic]

This was so well presented and so on point thank you so much!!!!

[@savagebooks7482]

Thank you!

[@pillmuncher67]

German dude here. I just finished listening to the audio book Krabat by Otfried Preußler. I've also read it many times. It's a dark story for older children (same age as ATLA, I think) about a orphaned boy at the onset of the 18th century who, in his dreams, is called to a mill, where he starts an apprenticeship. There's the miller and another eleven journeymen. Soon he discovers that the miller is a sorcerer and the men are his sorcerer apprentices. Every full moon a hooded man -only called the Goodman- in a coach with six black horses comes and they must work the whole night to mill what he brings them - human bones. He also discovers that each New Year's Eve one of the men has to die so the miller can live, and he tries to find a way to break the millers hold on him to avoid that fate. Why do I tell that story here? In his youth, Mr. Preußler had been devout Nazi who volunteered as a soldier and then spent five years in a POW camp in Tatarstan making silicate bricks. After the war, he returned to Germany, that is West Germany. He took the Krabat stories from the German Sorbs (a Slavic minority) and used it to tell his story - the story of young men like him being blinded by ideology and power and what it cost them and their generation. It's a deeply political story. It's also one of the great fantasy novels of the 20th century. There's an English translation. Go and read it. Read it now.

[@zan5051]

Yes, keep spreading the word about ATLA being one of the best stories of all time please.

[@emn2375]

It seems like people just complain about politics being "forced" when it is something they don't agree with.

[@Perroden]

No we compliance because insane real world ideology is being jammed down our throats and then demonizing us because we don't like it.

[@IanKnightScribe]

You must not have met any Christans that complain about christian movies that preach more than a pastor on Sunday.

[@carlosroo5460]

No, it isn't. Is when been forced. You wouldn't know, because Hollywood has been pushing just one kind of politics for years now. Anime and manga have all sorts of political undertones, like class struggles and economic recession, and One Piece even tackles themes of race and gender rolls, and nobody in the fandom complains about it, mainly because the story is good and powerscalers are the real pest of the fandom.

[@Perroden]

@@carlosroo5460 exactly I'm right wing and Christian but yet bon clay is one of my favorite characters. Ppl on the political left have a hard time comprehending that.

[@OhNoTheFace]

What a dismissive and idiotic statement that continues to let you play the victim and/or the "hero"

[@jubadiju]

I really like this video and the intent behind it, especially the analysis of how the various characters' stories wove together. I think you give too much credit to some of the criticism, as if it all comes from a place of good faith. While the example of clumsily written girl power stories/characters might feel cringe, your argument doesnt take into account why those stories get much more and more vitriolic criticism compared to clumsily written stories/characters with male main characters. The clumsy writing can act as the excuse to pile on, not necessarily the reason. People are already primed to want to dislike certain kinds of stories/characters, so when the opportunity presents itself... Every story is political, because it reflects or challenges whatever the established norms are. While i personally like more subtle and nuanced works, not every work is meant for everyone, and sometimes having a more strident message is exactly what works for the intended audience.

[@Rotaretilbo]

Ya, very much this. I feel like a lot of people complaining about politics in stories aren't bothered because the writing is bad, they're bothered because they don't *like* the politics they're seeing. They'll complain about anything with politics they don't like, and then see if any of the criticisms stick; if the story does well, they just quietly pretend like it doesn't exist, and if it does poorly, they'll point and say, "See! This is what I was talking about!"

[@bobtheball5384]

Ditto

[@technicaldeathmetalhead]

I agree. I have to say some of the best stories are based on politics: - Superman and Batman fighting corruption in their cities - Justice League fighting space colonizers like Darkseid - Dr. MLK and Malcolm X, I mean Charles Xavier and Magneto - Imperislistic Japan vs China and other Asian cultures, I mean the Fire Nation vs Earth Kingdom and other nations - Germans attacking Germans to escape camps and become honorary non-Germans, sorry I mean Attack on Titan - cops not being able to arrest a villain who circumvents the law, Psycho Pass - The West attacking the Middle East and calling them "t3rrorists"/Israel vs Palestine, sorry I mean Full Metal Alchemist Brotherhood - Code Geass - The whole Dune series Political stories can be compelling once you show both sides and create compelling characters that aren't just a token character or a dishonest representation of a character. It's okay to critique the opposing side while understanding how they reached their conclusions. The X-Men franchise does this wonderfully. Erick survived the Shoah as a boy and doesn't want to see history repeats itself and as Magneto he fights that .. but he also throws Mystique under the bus twice (iirc) and is a mutant supremacist. His concerns are real, and Charles might seem too passive, but his solution mirrors the horrendous "Final Solution" and we should learn from this. As for infamous "woke politics" discussion as a Black person my stance is nuanced. I LOVED Black Panther (Rest in Power Chadwick Boseman), LOVE Statik Shock, and LOVE Miles Morales. These are fun stories with well-written characters and their backgrounds/history enriches the characters plus you know I like seeing people that look like me out here. That said when its just a lazy insert or I see a Black Knight in ancient historical fictions it's honestly kinda weird sometimes and feels like us minorities are given "sloppy seconds". All that said, its important to have these discussions and push good storytelling first and foremost. Its okay to have politics at the forefront but if writers actually show nuance, it can actually make for amazing storytelling.

[@SpaceEngineerErich]

Yes! Exactly! Thank you! So many modern writers put the message far before narrative, character development, logic, plot, etc.

[@scruffd0g193]

Show dealt with major issues in the stories-genocide, totalitarianism, systemic injustice, abuse. Ahead of it’s time.

[@SteveJubs]

“Equality can only be achieved when the oppressed and the oppressors agree to make a change.” Tell that to the chickens from Chicken Run.

[@shyguypro9876]

Avatar the Last Airbender is the most popular anti-war story of our generation. It's insanely political.

[@bonnieblue9185]

Imagine if instead of getting Katara’s fight scene to prove herself, she made a 5 minute long ham fisted speech crying about the patriarchy and how hard it is to be a woman. The problem is Hollywood isn’t creative anymore. They can barley come up with an original idea much less find a subtle and more natural way to relay their messages. Like, it’s just straight propaganda now. Edit: And something else that just occurred to me is that Katara’s arch feels so natural because she actually IS a female character who still embraces her femininity and her role as a nurturer. She still takes care of Sokka and Aang and remains the gentle mother of the group. She doesn’t reject this part of herself, she’s not trying to beat Paku because “woman just as strong as man and man needs to be put in place”. She did it to prove that SHE could hold her own and we already saw how much work she had put into fighting. She wasn’t fighting just for the sake of women, her motivations are much deeper. She wasn’t trying to be a man, she wasn’t even trying to be a strong woman, she was trying to prove her OWN self worth and just happened to be breaking those barriers in the process. And even though she eventually becomes one of the more powerful characters in the series, she maintains her feminine nature and it really adds to her character. She doesn’t have to sacrifice being a woman to be a fighter because her maternal feminine nature isn’t played as a weakness, it’s played as a strength.

[@mori1bund]

I kinda disagree! 😂 My impression is, that (at least nowadays, because of our culture war) most people only complain when that agenda don't fit *their* political view. When it fits their political view they are always totally fine with it, no matter how bad the writing is! ^^

[@catlumpia1855]

I love this, this was the subject of our college thesis❤

[@alderkm7901]

"Politics in storytelling does not have to be intrusive or destructive. Simply telling your story first, then letting your message shine through it might be the best way to go about it." Now if only the studios and corporations would actually put this advice to practice.

[@Reepecheep]

This is kind of prophetic considering the new netflix show's take on Katara!

[@FinShapedFin]

Another big point is politics that you don’t agree with, like we should all agree that Katara should be able to fight if she wants, it’s a great story of overcoming adversity, but not everything that everyone talks about is something we agree with.

[@kahlforpresident9843]

This is such a great discussion on the realities of great storytelling Keep up the tough work

[@silverjaiden2450]

There’s also a difference between disagreeing with the politics and disagreeing with how the politics are told bc they strawman and definitley don’t understand their opposing political group, or they purposely play the opposing side as just being evil for evil’s sake… ofc that story can’t possibly be a nuanced and well told story

[@supercyc10]

The funny thing with that Romeo & Juliet law was that it was used incorrectly in that movie anyway. Paraphrasing Amazon Prime Trivia (and PointlessHUb), the law only protects you against sexual assault, not sexual conduct of minors within a certain age gap (legally 2 years, and they went OUT OF THEIR WAY to state they're 3 years apart).

[@noellebelle24]

10:04 this quote sums it all up perfectly

[@Chronoflation]

The northern water tribe socio-political reality was also foreshadowed with the southern water tribe in the very first episode, with the men having gone to war, the women and children staying behind with one male teenager left behind to be the guardian warrior of the village, also duty bound to train the next generation of boys to become warriors. They're a little on the nose with the sexism and commentary about it in those first 2 episodes between Saka and Katara, but it was also enough to make you remember it when you get to the northern tribe at the end of the season if you reflect on it. I think it would've been even better if they had also shown a woman getting hurt in combat in a way that also justified why the tribes created this policy in the first place. It would've added a bit more nuance, but the story was already very good, and I'm happy with what we got

[@MrHazz111]

The issue is when the metaphor is put in front of the story instead of the other way around. Take HOTD and ROP. Both are very 'socio-political'. But one seamlessly weaves the message in the world building and plot, while the other is preaching to the audience. Its the classic case of telling instead of showing sometimes too.

[@SIMMIS_0316]

I just wanna say the oppression is the limitations not the tradition. If you think about it the real world equivalent of the S. Water Tribe tradition, is saying only women can be doctors and men can only be manual laborors/warriors. In my opinion thats more unfair for the men.

[@kingofcards9516]

Politics should always be nuanced not in your face, preachy and overly biased. Especially in complex issues.

[@ivanbluecool]

I mean its understandable in a war torn nation to not want to send your women out there as being kidnapped is probably worse than death. Lucky avatar isn't an adult series or we'd get the women benders kidnapped so other nations can get those benders in future generations like zokus mom neing forced into a marriage she didn't want and helping ozai poison his father. It's 100 years of war so it definitely could have happened but i guess bending purity is probably why the fire nation didn't do it to prevent the avatar from returning Example Like the dai li switching sides to the fire nation (and being so underused they could have been a good enemy to fight) getting more bending powers on your side is extremely broken and korra shows how evil water bending can be with blood bending taking away bending.

[@klidthelid8361]

it could also be just the fear of water bending being wiped out from the world, they thought they were the last ones so it would be important to keep the women safe to make sure they can continue making more water benders