Avoid 7 Cable Method (2 amp FX loops)!

I get asked weekly how to best run 7 cable method (using 2 amp fx loops in stereo)
It can introduce noise, ground loops, phase issues, level misalignment and is costly to do well.
Although it’s not impossible, I always recommend 5 cable method instead!

[@JustinKosler]

I am running a setup from home that doesn't need to travel and I have been considering doing something exactly as you describe in this video. Currently, I am running from guitar into one impedance sensitive fuzz pedal, and then out to a passive saturnworks splitter/combiner, to provide one DI for possible later reamping. That comes back to a PJ predrive where I could then switch to the line level source for reamping. After this, it is pretty standard, going into a ML10X which is where it splits and provides another long chain of stereo pedals and eventually to the inputs of amps on either side of the room. As much as I love trying dirt boxes I cannot seem to get anything sounding as awesome as the gain channels on the main amp in this config which is a Mesa Mark Five:35, so I am thinking to do what you show with splitting the effects send at the ML10X and returning to the mesa and the other side to the effects return of THD BiValve being used as my second amp for stereo. I currently have no solution for phase or ground loop, and in the current setup I already notice what sounds like hum, but haven't much of a good way to know about the phase other than trying to A/B. So if I'm understanding correctly, there is no potential for ground loops in the effects pedals themselves, because their circuits are actually DC, even though the DC supplies are from an AC source? The other thing in my current setup is I have the cab clone of the Mark Five going to my interface via XLR, and I have a Digitech CabDryVR before the BiValve to provide the amp and cab simulation for the other side of my stereo configuration to the interface. I use that one because it can pass through for the amp. I'm assuming there could be potential for ground loop at these locations, or even all the way back to my initial splitter. Even if I switch to having the Mark Five preamp pushing everything, where could I improve on ground and phase problems?

[@mitchbell]

I tried this exact setup today and it sounded great. I have a radial big shot aby that goes to a tc electronic ditto x2 which allows me to loop a rhythm and then switch to one or both amps for leads. The effects loops of each amp goes the left and right of my wet effects.

[@GoodwoodAudio]

awesome!

[@GoudVis56667]

I agree with this video 100% I do run 7CM + I have a loopswitcher that doesn't have an iso transformer. It was a B to figure out. In the end I have to use 2 ISO's. 1 is my ABY box that goes into my loopswitcher input and 2. That ISO is directly wasted cause the switchers sums it back together. And the second one is right after the switcher output 2. I have an 4cable noise gate in both the amps effects loops and both go through a boss RV500 voor time based stuff. If you would draw it out and see how many loops and problem points there are in this setup you would pull your hair out.

[@GoodwoodAudio]

A pedalboard only the owner can love? haha

[@GoudVis56667]

@@GoodwoodAudio Hahaha yeah forsure XD

[@crock2434]

No phase issues

[@UncleYoshi]

An easier solution for stereo... just use Axe FX or Quad Cortex or any amp modeler (L & R) into 2 cabs.

[@GoodwoodAudio]

they do make it easy!

[@ArrakisOCE]

What advice do you have for building a pedal rack to run stereo pedals before and after a DAW based software amp-sim insert within an outboard pedal rack unit? It would be going into a stereo-in instrument level audio interface (with separate stereo line level I/O for the post-amp effects). I am looking at the Radial EXTC Stereo and Morningstar ML10X MIDI switcher - and then using the Radial as one of the assignable loops to place between dry and wet loops. Do you foresee any grounding or impedance issues?

[@GoodwoodAudio]

Definitely possible to run into grounding issues here... But to be honest, I'd probably build the rig first in this instance and then if you get a loop, troubleshoot it after it's built. Main reason being - assuming you're committed to this rig - you may not get any grounding issues at all. But then if you do, you can find the source and isolate it with something like Buzzkill (on our site) or other similar units. The Radial gear is awesome. Their Re-Amp stuff is really well thought through.

[@ArrakisOCE]

@@GoodwoodAudio Thankyou for that. Makes a lot of sense. I think a Radial purchase is always a great investment as well. The worst I can see is whether I would need to ground the input and output jacks on the rack panel (to the panel) or not before they go to and from the interface - which I think is an easy fix. Best regards and love your work.

[@taylorwyatt333]

for a while there, i felt partially responsible for this awesome tutorial/video until you said you get asked this every week, I guess maybe I was the straw that broke the camels back, which kind of makes me feel better. A pair of questions have arisen through watching this though, 1. If running the dreaded seven cable method with two identical amps, would that only solve the leveling of the loops? 2. If running the high five cable method, the return of amp two, or i guess with the returns in general, returns aren't what need to be leveled but the sends? Thanks again for the information last week and responding to my email. Not going to lie, I'm kind of bummed, because I want to blend the sounds of my two amps together while utilizing some stereo effects both in front, or at least mono effects being sent to the front end of each amp, as well as stereo effects in the loop, but apparently I want too much.

[@GoodwoodAudio]

ya, it's a common one... It IS doable, just not easy. Really comes down to how badly you want it / what you're willing to put up with.... 1. identical amps would help - yes. But you still have the issue of grounding / loops. But not phase issues (assuming your pedals aren't inverting polarity anywhere / causing phase issues) 2. Returns are usually less the culprits than the sends. But it's still possible to get level issues on returns as well depending on the amps.

[@jim3800]

How would this translate to HX effects? When using it with two Bluguitar AMP1’s?

[@GoodwoodAudio]

less of an issue in this instance but it might still be possible to get a ground loop here. I'd actually be curious to test this out and see how it goes. Let me know if you try it!