Avoid learning French with a conversation partner. (And why Linguistics matters)

[@Jetsetbob2]

Honestly, I'm French and I admire those who wish to learn my language. Nowadays, even our young children struggle to learn it properly. Yesterday, I read an article in which it was said that 90.5% of our 5th graders (last year of elementary school) were making at least 15 mistakes on a dictate text of 67 words. In the 80s, that score was around 30%... Moreover I have no idea what kind of French is useful to learn for foreigners, so I couldn't help new learners. Because we've got so many levels between the language of everyday and the academic one. French became a diplomatic language partly because we've got 50 nuances to say things, from the most direct and comprehensible way to obscure sentences that only a few people can understand. But our level usually determines our social rank. Because even if we've been living in a republic for more than 200 years, in which everybody is supposedly equal, we still love social status markers. For example, some tenses are exclusively used by the higher class, like "Plus que parfait du subjonctif", "Subjonctif passé"... And "Passé simple" is only for book writing. "J'aime pas" is fine for a normal conversation, but "Je n'aime pas" indicates that you're an educated person.

[@ouicommunicate]

Thank you for your comment. I think French should still be the language of diplomacy precisely because it is less nuanced than English. It's interesting that you defend the view that the way you speak indicates social rank. I feel it's less of a problem than in the UK (not America) where people locate you horizontally and vertically within 1 sentence. I also hear that the level of reading has fallen dramatically in France. Quel dommage !

[@Jetsetbob2]

@@ouicommunicate I don't know for the UK, but yes in France it's only important if you apply to certain jobs. Otherwise, you don't have to speak French perfectly.

[@ouicommunicate]

@@Jetsetbob2 Ok ! Thanks for clarifying.

[@mybestideas1]

Having a native French speaker teach you French can be counterproductive and potentially discouraging. Natives often don’t understand the struggles or unique challenges that your own language background brings when learning French (or any language for that matter). If you already speak other languages, seek out a teacher who has learned French themselves and who also understands your other languages. It’s important to get a qualified teacher-yes, they’ll teach you grammar and ask you to apply it. But trust me, you'll progress much faster than in a traditional classroom setting, and the learning will be tailored to your needs. Over time, you’ll see yourself speaking more freely, first with errors (which your teacher will correct), then with fewer mistakes, until finally, you’re riding without training wheels. This was exactly my experience. I’m currently in my third year of learning French and now at a C1 level. During my first year, I wasted valuable time with a native French teacher-she was nice, but had unrealistic expectations of what I should be able to do. Toward the end of that year, I made the switch. The new teacher I hired didn’t just meet me where I was; she built me up from scratch, covering all the tenses, and incorporating writing and listening exercises. She gives me homework, corrects it outside of class, and brings structured materials to each lesson. It’s been a game-changer. Remember, people go to university for *years* to learn a language fluently. If you want to do it properly, you need to put your ego aside and commit to learning it the right way-this isn't something you conquer in just a year. One last thing: be wary of “language exchanges.” They often lead to bad habits that are tough to undo later on. Mastering street language and shortcuts should come much later-if ever-after you have a strong foundation. Imagine someone speaking your native language poorly but using weird slang-it wouldn’t sound impressive, would it? Focus on precision first.

[@Alltagundso]

If a native speaker can't help you, male gynaecologists also can't help. 😝 It's not about being a native speaker or not, but about skills.

[@ouicommunicate]

@@Alltagundso Good point. Skills are everything. Although I do believe there is the effect of the "social aquarium" in a monolingual country such as France where monolingualism is the norm. I would say these teachers might find it hard to endorse a more multicultural role and step out of their identity, especially if they've lived there all their lives. But we can disagree.

[@ouicommunicate]

Thanks for the comment. What can I say other than I agree with everything ! Bravo for the C1 level !

[@B15F1]

A language is what language users speak, so what you need in a language partner is someone who has some awareness of the different registers, which most native speakers have. Getting your message across should always be the primary goal, style and registers are very hard to teach and can only come with time and need to reflect the learner’s personality or they risk becoming frustrated with the language. One can easily go too far, if one has an old fashioned teacher, into overly ornate language, especially in French. There’s an interesting video I ran across where a KZbin prof was trying to help a student who’d learned an extremely soutenu way of speaking speak more naturally!

[@ouicommunicate]

@@B15F1 Good points !

[@Earlofmar1]

Reminds me of my journey with piano. Knowing I needed something to keep me busy once I retired, I bought an inexpensive digital piano with the intention of learning classical piano. I had precious little music theory knowledge, but I could play and form some major/minor scales, some chords and even do a tiny bit of sight reading. So naturally with all my theory skills I wanted the glory of being self-taught, but that lasted little more than a month or so before I knew I had to get a teacher. My first, and later second teacher didn’t charge much money, but didn’t actually teach much in return. I sought additional help from method books, on-line forums, theory books I didn’t understand, tempo and sight-reading applications, and all of the best known self-help piano books. ‘’Never Make a Mistake’’, ‘’It’s Ok to Make a Mistake’’ (just paraphrasing), but on and on it went. Then one day I started lessons with a properly qualified and experienced teacher who has taught me so much in the last eight years, but of which I have only learned a fraction.

[@ouicommunicate]

Oh wow, is it the same in music? It's probably very unregulated also. Thanks for your comment!

[@Earlofmar1]

@@ouicommunicate it's exactly the same in music and yes, it is very easy to call yourself a teacher with no qualifications.

[@Kitiwake]

Comment vous savez.... Faites vous les exigences au début jusqu'à a former le faculté a prendre la prochaine niveau. Rien est facile, mais les résultats sont très satisfaisant. Persistance.

[@ouicommunicate]

@@Kitiwake exactement !

[@jean-louismorgenthaler4725]

A honest, informational, though unsurprising testimony. There are today plenty of resources on line to everybody wanting to learn a foreign language. Some are better than others and none is perfect. No method works with 100% of learners. Interestingly, learning a foreign language is not only a matter of linguistics. It's as well a matter of geographical and sociological context, a matter of psychology, a matter of individual needs, a matter of demographics, a matter of tools, and a matter of money. There are different learner profiles, why shouldn't we have different teacher profiles, each one with their advantages and disadvantages?

[@ouicommunicate]

Exactly. If there was ONE way to do things, we'd all be doing that. A free market means variety. Besides, not every language teacher is competing for the same customers. Not everyone is out for the same slice of the pie. It's good to have "cheap" options and it's also good to have qualified professionals. I have one way of teaching that many won't like. My target market is the "serious" learner who's a bit older. Then there are teachers for kids, for teenagers... it's all good.

[@jean-louismorgenthaler4725]

@@ouicommunicate I agree, and you're perfectly right to advocate your own approach, trying not to let anybody believe that learning a foreign language is a piece of cake. Marketing techniques seem to push against long-time respected academic credentials. We are surely witnessing a turn, but I don't expect qualified teachers to give up or give in.

[@anitawaters4745]

Im only 2 minutes in and I can totally agree with you! I’ll watch the rest now and share my experience.

[@batgirlp5561]

It started at 3:27😊

[@anitawaters4745]

Over the last 8 years I’ve taken 470 “conversation classes” on a well known language learning platform. Some have been community tutors and others professional teachers. The problem I’ve found is that they tend to do most of the talking and they don’t seem to realise that I’m the one paying them to practise my own conversational skills!!!

[@ouicommunicate]

@@anitawaters4745 Very true. I know the community teachers well.

[@twodyport8080]

Spot on! Conversation is overrated. I wasted years on witchdoctors peddling nonsense like CI. To be fair finding a good teacher is difficult. Being a good student is difficult.

[@ouicommunicate]

Thanks for your comment. I believe so too !

[@plerpplerp5599]

What you said also applies to the whole EFL teaching industries.

[@ouicommunicate]

Oh...haha! I hadn't thought of that !!!

[@ouicommunicate]

Actually yes, you can get an ESL certificate for as little as 12 quid in the UK. Hey presto, I'm a tutor!

[@jardinardennais4355]

My method of learning: 1° listen and read and write, and repeat and repeat....2° I use the themes that are very interesting for me, youtube, NPR radio...with transcript, audio with text. ...My aim, my goal is not to speak to someone, but to be able to understand books, and news ...I'm not a talkative type, so dialogues are not a good think for me.

[@ouicommunicate]

Thanks for sharing!

[@Phylaetra]

I do think that having a conversation partner as a supplement to actual classes is helpful (especially for people who have trouble producing speech, and may need a more formal and emotionally safe environment). From what I have experienced (and heard from linguists), it's nice, but not _necessary_. Certainly it should not be the _only_ part of the learning process. I must admit that I am getting awfully tired of people pretending that one does not need to learn any grammar and can get by on input only with no other work (or that AI makes a good 'conversation partner', or that you only need 15 minutes a day or... So many shortcuts to pay for the illusion of learning). For my part - I am learning French through the Alliance Francaise, which has been a great experience and includes a lot of instruction on many parts of language - pronunciation, grammar, the four major skills or reading, writing, listening, and speaking, cultural classes (in French for those at B2 or higher). We also get to hear examples of spoken French from around the world, not just Switzerland and Belgium, but Africa and Quebec and other places. I am also starting Swedish - this through classes from the American Swedish Institute, which follows a similar teaching style. I did try German, but I cannot find any good classes in my area - but I hear that Lingoda is a good school, so perhaps I will revisit German in the future. But - no matter what, I will pretty much always try for a class first, then a private (but certified) tutor if I cannot find a class.

[@ouicommunicate]

So true! Ai is turning out to be the joke of the century as far as I'm aware. My mate was actually the manager of a AF. But I won't be doing a video on that : ) Although it's interesting to hear a "behind the scenes" account. Out of curiosity I wonder what they consider "Belgian French " to be? Or are they just showing that French is all the same? Swedish is an interesting one. I wish you much success! Thanks for the comment.

[@Phylaetra]

@ouicommunicate Belgian French has a few different idioms (which I forget, but might recognize if I heard them) and they use septante, octante, and nonante, instead of soixante-dix, quatre-vingt, and quatre-vingt-dix. If I remember right, I think Swiss French does that too... There's also regional accents, and I remember thinking that Quebecois is super nasal. The class materials include audio and video with people from around the Francophonie, though the focus is on metropolitan French. They also focus on all of the language skills, we even do la dictation! I really like that exercise- it's good for building listening comprehension and spelling. Not everyone does though (as with most things). Do you have in-person classes, or are you all online? Where do you live? And you mentioned your parents were in Belgium- I was at SHAPE in Mons (well, actually Chievres Air Base, a little north, and I rented a house in Bauffe - a wide spot in the road by the base, but several km to the entrance. It's still there, as I could see on the street view of Google maps!) Anyway- great videos!

[@Phylaetra]

@ouicommunicate oh, and Swedish because I know a surprisingly large number of Swedes. It's a super easy language for English speakers (and if you know a little German, that will help you with some of the vocabulary like 'arbetar' and 'tillsammans' (German 'arbeiten' and 'zusammen'; English 'work' and 'together'). Though 'jobbar' is more common for 'work' now, showing (along with some other words) the growing influence of English on the language. The verb system is the easiest I've run into- the most complicated part is the strong and weak verbs, weak verbs form the past with 'de' on the end, very like English 'ed' and strong verbs change the vowel to form the past- like swim, swam. And many of them are the same ones that English does that with. But it does have some very unique features as well that can be difficult for English speakers to wrap their heads around.

[@yamrom1]

There is a lot of truth in what you said; however, following your logic, we could also argue that 99% of teachers who teach us our mother tongue do not have a deep understanding of linguistics, yet they still possess diplomas and certifications. Therefore, the issue is more nuanced than simply stating that foreign language teachers must necessarily be professional educators.

[@ouicommunicate]

Good point, thanks! I think my main point is that as much as an architect sees a house through the eyes of an architect, so do linguists. It's a more "scientific" view. I myself do not have a deep understanding of linguistics but have learned it enough to see levels within language.

[@zenbija]

I see so many viral videos about language learning with "Stop Saying Adios!" or the like. There's something cheap but appealing about the clickbait. Maybe it's the idea that you can be savvy in a language, the kind of hip in-the-know speaker who knows the trendy ways to say "hello" and "thank you," without putting in the work to be competent in natural speaking and listening. When I lived in India to study Hindi, many people I met casually would say, "You're taking classes to learn Hindi? I could teach you Hindi!" It got to be annoying. As this video says, skilled teachers of a language know enough linguistics to teach it in a way that doesn't come naturally to those who only speak it as a mother tongue. Eventually, I countered those who offered to teach by asking, "Can you explain why you put 'ne' after the subject in some sentences but not others?" Now, I knew the answer is that you use "ne" when the verb is transitive and in the perspective aspect. But those who learned Hindi from childhood without studying linguistics don't know how to explain it; it's just something that comes naturally. That said, while I could never replace the skilled teachers I had with amateur volunteers, my Hindi language skills were definitely helped by immersion, and by striking up conversations. Those conversations weren't framed as "Can you help me practice Hindi?" and more as sharing encounters. I have at least one good friend who has never spoken to me in English. That's an accomplishment.

[@ouicommunicate]

Thanks for sharing your experience. I agree with it all!

[@mikklecash6046]

I know an Australian joke about how New Zealanders pronounce English, but you'd have to know the NZ accent to understand it, and it is too crude to put up...

[@ouicommunicate]

Oh ! haha! My wife and I sometimes try to figure out the accent. We go "wait, do you replace this sound with that sound and you...." I'm not sure of KZbin's policy concerning rude language.

[@annietriesthings]

Well this is a Debby Downer! How about some advice on how to pinpoint a qualified tutor (other than you). For example: if I go to italki, what do I need to look for? Or do you consider italki complete rubbish?

[@ouicommunicate]

I love that...a Debby Downer ! I'm going to use it myself as soon as I can. : ) Yes, I don't mean to sound too negative. Speaking of Italki, I will absolutely be sharing my thoughts about it based on 3000 hours experience. Italki is a very complex platform and not easy for the user to fully understand the dynamics at play beneath the surface. Thanks for stopping by and commenting.

[@mybestideas1]

See my reply about that :)

[@patrickhalloran5985]

This man knows so much about how little other people know it surprises me to hear him pronounce an English word sounding an H that is not there - also using the objective pronoun ‘ME’ where he should have said ‘I’ . Just where does he think the average person can find the financial resources necessary to study French or any other language at University level . The primary function of language is to communicate. Children do this very well without having the slightest awareness of linguistics . I found this diatribe boring , repetitive and pretentious.

[@Kitiwake]

Agreed, but accent is acceptance.

[@ouicommunicate]

Ah the issue of the "haich" as they say in England : ) Some add it where it's not supposed to be and others take it away where it should: "She's an Hangel" (angel) / "I'm riding an orse" (horse) Oh well. Whatever works eh? I think the issue of cost in language classes is a bit different from how we usually think about it. As we all know, value is relative. To some, a 100$ pair of sneakers is blasphemy. To others it's the bare minimum. But investing 10$ in a library membership is seen as too expensive. You might find a cheap language tutor but the cost per hour is actually double the expense, depending on the value we put on our own individual time. 1. the cost of a class if it doesn't bring you much 2. the cost of your time when you could have been doing something else more valuable. I will be speaking of the way children learn in a different video and why we shouldn't believe it applies to adults. But... my tone won't change much. It might come across as pretentious also. But thanks for the comment.

[@mybestideas1]

To me, french lessons cost me like a car payment. I pay 21E and have 2 lessons per week, every week for the past 3 years. My teacher is not a 'conversational partner' but real time corrector and someone who observes my progress and can troubleshoot things going forward.

[@stuartdryer1352]

I am wondering what cognitive neuroscience says about this. Language is a very complex set of skills that require different neural pathways. Understanding, speaking, writing, etc. overlapping but distinct skills. And I wonder if linguistics (as opposed to cognitive science) as taught to people with, say, literature backgrounds (!), is prepared to teach in a way that is most efficient and based on how our brains work, especially learning a second language. What say you?

[@ouicommunicate]

That's well beyond my modest competence! I have neither. I think each teacher is influenced by the way they learned themselves. I learned German in a rather more analytical way, so it reflects on my French teaching.

[@stuartdryer1352]

@ouicommunicate Being able to spontaneously generate a sentence that is grammatically and phonetically correct in real time is one of the skills required to learn a second language. A fundamental principle of learning is that it requires doing. Similarly, being able to decode the sounds generated by a native speaker requires practice. The best way to practice these things is through speaking with someone. Obviously, both of those skills require a considerable amount of time studying the structures and even the logic of a language, which is a great deal of what goes into linguistics as I understand it. We certainly don't learn a second language the same way we learned our first one. A second language is such a complex undertaking that there's no one single activity that generates by itself everything we need to know to be able to function effectively in a second language. I try to keep an open mind, but I could say there are questions about where we actually find the charlatans and the witch doctors. The biggest red flag for me is people who promise unrealistically quick results.

[@ouicommunicate]

@@stuartdryer1352 Thanks for the comment. I think the witch doctors are everywhere : ) You type "learn French" and whatever Mc-Learning platform comes up. My argument about speaking for the sake of speaking is that the speakers practice without a map. Realistically, speak about what? It gives the impression we are going somewhere but doesn't say how far we traveled or even what we are doing well. To me the best tool is rationalization: understanding what we are doing in order to self-correct.

[@adamclark1972uk]

Having a language partner is a great way to make progress. Reading books about how to swim will never beat actually getting in the water.

[@ouicommunicate]

OK

[@ariannewdnotbe]

I more or less agree with you, but in contrast, I’ll say that I’m a native English speaker. My college BF was Mexican-American whose native language was Spanish. He also spoke perfect English. We traveled in Mexico a lot & lived in Guatemala for a year. We also lived or lived near to his parents & siblings. The way I became reasonably fluent in Spanish was because he refused to speak for me. He taught me how to say what I needed to say, but I had to say it. Sure, he wasn’t trained to teach Spanish, but I became street level fluent. Was it good enough to integrate on an educated level? Absolutely not. But, it was good enough for what I needed at the time. I even worked as a paralegal speaking only Spanish to legal aid clients when I was about 20, before I went to law school. Fast forward to a long marriage to a French guy. His English is absolutely perfect, but his sister taught French as a foreign language at L’ENA & his mom was a French teacher at a lycée in Paris. So, I’ve had professional help. That being said, I recommend that anyone learning a foreign language skip the easy online lessons & study with a professional teacher like you, unless all you want is to be able to interact on a B1 level or below.

[@ouicommunicate]

Thanks for sharing! Obviously I'm never 100% right about everything. Just views that we share. My brother learned Spanish in very similar circumstances as yourself in Peru with his wife. It would be interesting to see what his actual level is now 10 years later. But indeed, the easy online formulas don't work.

[@mybestideas1]

@@ouicommunicate They say that once you reach a B2 level, the language tends to stick with you for years. But if you don’t reach that point, chances are you’ll forget almost everything.

[@Alltagundso]

So, your problem was that you skipped writing and reading and that your conversation partners didn't gather enough skills (before you met them) to be helpful. (Sorry, I can't finish watching, this is too tiring. 😅(

[@ouicommunicate]

Thanks for the comment! I sometimes have that effect on people😀 But I hear there are some good Disney cartoons available on youtube. : )

[@frankparis9408]

French speaker here. Good luck to anybody learning French without a French conversation partner!

[@ouicommunicate]

Merci du comment! On n'est pas "contre" les echanges linguistiques - juste qu'on court le risque de ne pas savoir ce qu'on vient d'accomplir. "Parler" n'est pas une connaissance en soi. On risque de faire du sur-place. Voila mon argument.

[@ericlind6581]

Il n’a pas dit ça. Il a dit que si qqn essaie d’apprendre une langue par avoir des conversations avec des natifs seulement, ce n’est pas vraiment efficace. On n’est jamais corrigé, on n’a pas d’occasion de répéter et finalement maîtriser certaines constructions, et souvent même si le partenaire peut parler la langue, il n’est pas capable d’expliquer la langue. Et la réalité est qu’il y a une pléthore de français qui parlent mal…d’une manière qui ferait Molière se tourner dans sa tombe.

[@ouicommunicate]

@@ericlind6581 Exactement !

[@gregmcnair4272]

Charlatans and witch doctors? Sounds like sour grapes to me.😂

[@ouicommunicate]

Perhaps it is! Thanks for the comment and for watching.

[@georgeszurbach444]

To be sure you have the best french courses look for teachers who have a master in FLE.Its the highest professionnal qualification for teaching French to foreigners in France.

[@ouicommunicate]

Thanks for your comment !

[@shweefranglais7900]

I enjoy listening to your videos. I always feel like you are describing French learning as it was 15 years ago, not now i know some brilliant french language tutors. Anne le grand from parlez vous French. Alex chambure from language city, francais authentique hugo coton Elsa planete francais is superbe. Having said that you are interesting to listen too . Its true the older generation of educated French people (very rightly)have pride in their language and speaking it correctly. They do love to correct you on minor points like the place of a comma which can slightly excessive in my opinion. However that is one thing that is getting less and less and young people's French is becoming sloppy and the increasing use of Anglicisms is contaminating the language. The only sites i would not recommend are Rosetta Stone (appalling) and i would not advise just doing five minute quizzes on your phone. You need a structured programme but there are superb ones. Elsa at planet french for example covers essential grammar videos a plethora of videos and tests to work through. Work marked by qualified teacher and conversation groups in small groups 4 or 5 for each level. Theres a reading group and lives every Saturday. The price for all of including the classes works out at 37 euro per month. We are actually at the best time ever with the advent of zoom and the plethora of highly skilled teachers out there.