AVR vs Separates - Can You Hear a Difference?

[@tkcdac]

Equipment changes: My watershed moment was adding AVR amplified

[@tyrell3000]

This video was right on time. Yesterday I received my Emotiva A7 amplifier and connected it to my Integra DRX 3.4 receiver. I’m running my 5 main channels from the amplifier and my 4 Atmos speakers from the receiver. While there is no loud and thunderous difference in the two, I do hear much better separation and clarity out of my main 5 channels. The whole soundstage seems more “forward” and in your face than before. My front stage is Polk XT 70s and a Polk XT 30 center channel, my surround speakers are my old Polk Audio Monitor 50s. I did re-run Dirac after adding the amp and level matched. The difference is small, but noticeable in my opinion.

[@Rockovissi]

I think you answered my question! I also just recently completed the Polk XT line. I have 5.1.4 but I have all my old speakers in my basement including two Polk FXi A4 Bipolar speakers. I’d love to use them as back surrounds but need an additional two channel amp. So I thought get the BasX A7 for 7 channels and let the receiver power the four Atmos ones.

[@spencerbigum1309]

I recently upgraded from a Denon AVR 4400x to a Audio control Maestro x7 and I definitely hear a better separation of channels and overall audio clarity in dialogue. That combined with Dirac Live room calibration, I have no regrets in the upgrade. Honestly it’s like my speakers came alive after the upgrade.

[@joelopez7459]

That's not fair at all, now use Dirac with the Avr

[@wezzman1]

Finally! A real honest conversation about this subject. Thank you. Too many ppl trying to influence and giving false information. Great guys👍🏽

[@Youthman]

Glad you found the video helpful

[@dajuanpollard2685]

@@Youthman wouldn't a avr with external amplification work just as well as a processor or is it more quality of the DACs in the processor to the avr?

[@dennisimpallomeni5599]

I heard the difference going from a Yamaha rxa2030 with separate amps to the marantz 7706 and I got better separation and definition with the pre amp and if my fiancé can hear the difference you know it is better

[@mikeman1110]

Well, if we were to look at good old HIFI amplifiers, they do have integrated amplifiers and separates too. Separates albeit being more costly simply exist as an option not only to provide more power per channel but also allows for separation of amplifier circuits that is known to cloud sound quality. So in a nutshell, separates in a home theatre are for someone who needs more power especially when the speaker wattage requirement and number of speakers added has weaken the AVR’s per channel output making them sound less than ideal. Couple of years ago decided to run my Marantz SR6011 on a 5 channel via pre-out mode to a Marantz 5 channel power amplifier for main channels and the rest via AVR. In my case, I do hear a difference. The difference has nothing to do with Audyssey or processing since I am not using a dedicated processor but the added juice per channel does make the speakers become alive and happy to deliver extra bit of detail.

[@techcode_man]

I am with you. I can definitely tell a difference between AVR and separates. Marantz 7706 and monolith9 rocks.

[@imz14u2nv]

Hi All, I was the one that started this question on the live Stream that they had. I was having trouble posting the entire question with equipment due to the 200 character limit. I have a 7.1.4 Dolby Atmos receiver (Pioneer VSX-LX503 9.2 Channel) setup I am using External AMPs for all channels via the pre outs Emotiva BasX A3 140 watts / channel into 8 Ohms and 200 watts / channel into 4 Ohms Emotiva BasX A4 x 2 100 watts / channel into 8 Ohms and 130 watts / channel into 4 Ohms Fronts: Boston Acoustics A200 x 2 Surrounds Infinity SM-165 x 2 Rear Infinity SM-165 x 2 Heights Infinity SM-165 x 4 I have four sub woofers: SVS SB-2000 Pro x 2 SVS SB-3000 x 2 My room is acoustically treated with Panels from GIK, I had them evaluate my room and suggest the best treatment. This included absorbers first reflections and diffusers for other areas, Bass traps for the corners and rear wall along with clouds for the ceiling. I think it sounds great as it is currently, but I always see people talk about Dirac Live and really high end Pre Processors, So, that is what prompted me to post the question because it seems you can just keep spending if you get caught up in the hype. I was really shocked when I saw the new Marantz AV10, it is so much more money then their previous efforts and I wonder if this stuff is really worth the money because sometimes is a person spends a lot of money on something, they convince themselves that it is a million times better even if it isn’t. Honest Answer: Will I really hear a difference if I switch to a separate Pre Processor?

[@gaurd3]

I see a lot of testimonies in the comments from mid tier or old AVRs owners who made the switch but not from people with the latest tech from the top of the line gear who made the switch. I have an 8015 in my room and all my speakers are alive and very present. Panning is on point without any loss in clarity. Personally Im going separates because AVRs become obsolete too quickly.

[@jin5667]

Separates all the way. Definitely sounds better than AVRs in my experience. There are some awesome AVRs for sure, but in general, I think if you are serious about HT and sound quality, you would have a separate already. Just look at the wattage difference per channel, not sure why this is even a debate :)

[@abdoeraouftitus8066]

@P T hi separates is better you can take the top avr Vs a descent separates it is just better separate processor have better DACs in seperrate power amps more control on your speakers the detail is better on seperrate processor

[@leighagnello7993]

It's not going to give you better sound, par say. The experience is better because it creates much better speaker separation and the experience is heightened. Buy this comes down to if your speakers are powered properly etc.

[@ryanschipp8513]

I have an Onkyo tx-nr1030 receiver...$1700 retail. Sounds good on it's own. Then switched to a dedicated pre/dac Nuprime Dac-10....into a PS Audio Stellar s300 power amp....the separates definitely sounded better. Cleaner more profound bass....more details...bigger soundstage.

[@1165mac]

Seems to me the best reason to go with separates is to remove stress from the AVR so that it will run cooler and focus more on the processing. I'm using Outlaw monoblocks for my LCR speakers, which are the Ascend Acoustics Sierra Towers and the matching Sierra Horizon center. I definitely noticed cleaner and more intelligible dialogue from the center channel after doing this. Of course, I now have no worries about cranking them up and still getting clean sound. Plus, my AVR is now able to provide more power to my two surround speakers, if the need arises. I'm toying with the idea of getting a two channel amp for the surrounds or even (overkill?) two more of those great Outlaw monoblocks. Great price on those!

[@ben23a31]

With sound quality being the focus only: generally doesn't better parts equal better sound? If not why get the top of the line models?

[@ascendav]

Features, channel count, room correction software, etc are all reasons for this. Better parts can mean better sound, but it has to be engineered well and can’t just be thrown together. Also, at some point you won’t be able to hear the difference. Therefore, why pay the difference if option x does the same things as options why, with the same bells and whittles you want, for less?

[@joelopez7459]

pre-outs

[@SealedOrPorted]

I added external amps to my Anthem AVR model MRX-1120. The AVR provides 170w to bed channels and 75w to heights. The preamp terminals provide a 4.2 VRMS output to the external amps. My speakers are MartinLogan 4 and 6 ohm in a 5.2.4 configuration with twin SVS PB-3000 subs. As an AVR, the MRX-1120 provided 5.1 content with good results. Plenty of power to hurt one’s hearing. In immersive audio, the reduced power section to the height channels made content indiscriminate. Dolby Atmos promotional tracks as well as music videos were very good whilst movies/shows were generally nondescript. In preamp mode, the external amps provide 400w in 4 ohm speakers. The difference was quite audible as sound was more immersive with more presence and clarity. Granted, the sound is not louder. It’s like the difference between a small ensemble and a full orchestra. My presumption is that the internal amps were under driving all of the speakers, causing distortion at typical movie volumes ~85dB. Providing a strong signal to more powerful amps likely reduced distortion and evened out the listening field providing better immersion at the same ~85dB. The subs blend better without overpowering at -10 volume setting. A prime example is how real the audio experience seems. Using Fury Tiger Tank scene, the diesel rumble is lifelike whilst the voice yelling commands is proportional to my experiences with talking over diesel equipment. Mortar explosions were impressive and room shaking as expected. At some point, I will replace the MRX-1120 with a processor, but I am compelled to wait and see how the newly updated AVM-70 8k is received. Thanks for the discussion.

[@techsamurai11]

Well, there's a massive problem. In 2010, you couldn't throw a stone without hitting a flagship AVR that had a toroidal transformer and cost under $2,000. Heck some had THX Ultra 2 certification and cost $1,600 like the Onkyo 😁 You could even use them to bi-amp your LR. You didn't need AV separates back then. Marantz's separates cost $5,000 then but the new models will cost $14,000. It's not a great value proposition but there aren't many audiophile grade choices in the AVR market. We are definitely regressing in the area of sound quality and power - Monolith and Emotiva are the only companies that can offer products that match the power output of the old AVRs at an affordable price point and they are about to offer single box AVRs. Maybe Onkyo and Pioneer can offer a better product. In fact, buying speakers that are easy to drive is something that most of us may wish to consider. We all have to curb our av receiver expectations in movies and music as high quality toroidals, copper chassis, bi-amping etc is going to be prohibitively expensive and will require a lot of amps, furniture, cables that it just becomes the realm of custom installations. Sadly we are headed towards quantity over quality - people want 20 channels, not a top notch 5.1. Atmos separates are even more complex but Emotiva XPA-11 and the Monolith X11 have saved the day through clever power differences for the important channels and the other channels (300/65 vs 200/100). Actually what would be nice to see is the extraction of Atmos channels from the main AVR - essentially all AVRs are 7.2 with preamps for Atmos. Then companies can design a small dedicated unit for the Atmos channels with very low amplification that costs a few hundred bucks with 50 watts per channel.

[@Antibackgroundnoise]

The more unnecessaries they cram into an AVR chassis the more the sound quality is likely to diminish. Rather features, channels and functionalities if one is looking for a quality sound, one would be wise to choose an AVR for its components. Otherwise when the movie sound Dynamics change one might find themselves reaching for the remote control yet again.

[@TheLkdude]

Yes, you can hear! how many AVR's are there which can deliver full power at all channels driven! , it is not the Processor issues , it is the Amps ..

[@pyrocrew17]

Amen

[@audioexperience]

yea you absolutely can but also it’s possible to not depending on the specific comparison

[@ryancampos1435]

We definitely need a full on video on this topic.

[@ryancampos1435]

With blind a/b testing etc etc

[@Corvetto1991]

Hi folks I switched from a Marantz SR7012 to an Marantz AV8805A with 2 Marantz Amplifiers Marantz MM8077 and I had the chance to swap with Audysee and not. And i have the feeling that the sound is much better and clearer. As my wife as an judge 🥰 says that sounds much better it was the goal for me to change it (Yeeesss). To get a better 4x sub sound i use the mini DSP now (less money) much much better. geetings from Austria 😀👍

[@ryankramer]

It depends on the problem you're trying to solve. A competent AVR driving some JTR speakers in a smaller room would be plenty so long as the AVR has the other features you need. There's nothing inherently better technologically about separates as a concept. Nothing would stop a manufacturer from building an AVR with fully differential circuitry and balanced interconnects if they so choose. Apples to apples, AVRs are cheaper for the tech you get, and separates have the advantage of some redundancy. (Prepro broke? Well at least you still have the amps... and Visa Versa)

[@shemsureshot]

There’s a lot of variables really but the AVR or integrated AMPs simplify getting better sound. And if you don’t like the sound, you just send the whole thing back and try something different. Separates are too finicky and usually result with frequent tweaking and not enough listening.

[@jeremiahglass8262]

I have a processor/external amp set up. I’ll never ever go back to an AVR. In a small room, sure … But a dedicated theater room…just simply needs more power.

[@_Kai__]

I have been wondering this for a while now. I know ASR takes measurements to prove sound quality, but no one talks about receiver/processors computing capability/power. As more channels are added, what is required to accurately distribute sound to the proper channels? I would love to see you guys do blind A/B testing with receivers and processors!

[@andrewskaterrr]

This is what I've been wanting tested. My SDP-55 had much better separation than my old Marantz SR5010 (It seemed like the DAC and amps had treble roll off which could be the cause of this, or part of it).

[@missing1102]

The processing is a bigger deal than the software. I feel like there is not enough talk about the chip.

[@_Kai__]

@@andrewskaterrr Its funny that you mention the SR5010, that is the receiver I am currently using. Does you SDP-55 have a quieter noise floor? I upgraded my LCR to very sensitive speakers (95db) and hear a light hiss from them. I'm hoping to upgrade to a true processor some time next year and the goal is to achieve a dead silent system. :)

[@andrewskaterrr]

@@_Kai__ Yes the new setup is quieter, but typically the amps have a higher noise floor than your AVR/Processor. My JBL 590s only have a hiss that I can hiss up to 2ft away. They are 92dB sensitive.

[@_Kai__]

@@andrewskaterrr I am running the speakers off of the AVR at the moment. I have a Hypex based amp on order from Buckeye amps. The hiss isn't loud, but definitely hoping to quiet things down with a processor. :)

[@JayPatrol]

Do you need a pre amp processor in an apartment? No 😊 Just alittle humor there You guys do fantastic job with your reviews

[@jong6964]

I definitely heard more clarity and separation when I added an external amp Emotiva Basx-A5 5 channel to my Marantz 6013! For the bed layer minus the SB speakers. Kept the 4 atmos and SB on the Marantz. Is it mind blowing? No, but there IS definitely a difference! And better sound! So Ryan and Jon should really try it before saying there’s no difference!

[@ascendav]

We have done it multiple times. Also, be very careful with this test as people can mistake increased volume for increased clarity. It’s also important to realize that software can and dose change the room run to run so it can be very misleading. Lastly, you have to do the testing blind and with fast switching or your subjective bias will sway the results. You may say it didn’t or won’t, but no one is above letting a bit of subjectivity in even without realizing it.

[@keiyamkeiyam4688]

Emotiva basx are the lowest of the emotive range , just adding a random amp does not improve separation , the basx amp are roughly the same output of the marantz 6013

[@jong6964]

@@keiyamkeiyam4688 umm okay if you say so. Do you own them? Have you tried it? And no the Amp doesn't give out the same power as the receiver.. you might want to check that. The emotiva Amp is providing 95 watts per channel all channels driven while the receiver is maybe 25-30 watts max all channels driven.

[@jong6964]

@@ascendav I have done A/B testing and have level matched to the same SPL level while testing. I've listened to my theater for years without the Amp but honestly once adding it could definitely hear a subtle difference at the same volume. It's hard to explain. Not sure why everyone is so against that it can in some situations make a difference. We have to trust our ears its all that matters. Even family and friends heard a small difference and increased clarity.

[@musicjewell9329]

hey @Youthman do you mind saying clips in the title? so we know this was clipped from an longer discussion? thanks for the great content!

[@dennisbohner6876]

Yammy 8A replaced an A-3000. Now I have Atmos. What changed otherwise? Nothing much. If I would recommend any actions, go for the current SOTA receivers. You do not have to make your lives overly complicated. (Like buying all of those distribution cables.) If you are into the sky-is-the-limit gear. Knock yourselves out. In fact, you will. There is no amount of money that will give you perfection. "Moderation in everything", Ben Franklin said it best.

[@Rockovissi]

What about an Emotiva Basx A7 connected to an Onkyo TX-RX830 to get 7.1.4 and have the receiver just power the four Atmos channels? Because I’ve been eying that and wasn’t sure if I’d notice a difference. But it technically would be providing more power to my speakers.

[@thebrowncinema]

Curious why both turn off their room corrections. I’m guessing the speakers and room done need the eq. So I’m assuming they level match, time align with distances and set crossovers instead of using room eq.

[@2081calin]

When I start my quest on audio I thought a avr Was The best solution but I find out there was something way better and I did my research for a couple years, Once I try my new separate set up marantz av 8805 + 2 marantz 8077 powered amps all connected using only XLR‘s including the 2 svs pb4000 , I will never want go back to a avr it is Day and Night differences, 0 distortion separation so much Power and they run so much cooler using them sometimes for five hours , no more overheating Avr’s again

[@dirtyminerapparel]

Yay 100K Sub! Congrats! Maybe I should run calibration again on my AVR. I feel like my setup sounds different. Not bad, just different after a couple years. Maybe my kids moved my front tower some when cleaning and it’s sensitive due to my room setup.

[@Youthman]

Thank you. It doesn’t hurt. If you have Ausyssey and the Ausyssey App, you can easily run multiple calibration and save them separately.

[@dirtyminerapparel]

@@Youthman I think I can. I have the Pioneer Elite LX503

[@dirtyminerapparel]

@@Youthman ok I’m an IDIOT! I have MACC or what ever it’s called. It doesn’t do that but it does have an auto tune. I do find that I need to go in and make crossover setting and turn off sound retriever after it makes changes. There has to be a better way to this. I use an external RTA to level the curves some but I mostly go by ear because totally flat doesn’t sound right.

[@voiceofreason9238]

I trust Youthman's opinion.

[@milkman100001]

whats the point of seperate pre amp then? except another 3 -4 -5 grand

[@kalexan9]

You are waking up from being plugged into the matrix.....good!

[@gaurd3]

Good amp will last for decades. AVR a few years. You can just upgrade your processor. Initial cost is more.

[@airman6822]

Diminishing returns, no kidding...LOL . Great clips. Get right to the point. Most times I don't have time to watch anything over 5-10 min even though they might be worthy.

[@Youthman]

Glad the clips are helpful.

[@straiteE]

why does processor cost more? you have a 11 channel avr vs 11 channel processor that cost $600 more no amps .

[@kalexan9]

because manufacturers have trained the masses that less is MORE, and they throw in some XLR outs and charge you more without anyone questioning them. Everytime this question is asked, no one can articulate clearly and concisely the premium they charge by giving you less, and charging you MORE.

[@JSchurter]

These videos have been awesome info, Out of curiosity why turn off room correction? I would think if I had the storm pre pro I would want all the benefits of that unit, How is the bass management being handled with dirac off ? Would actually like a video on that and why and the thinking behind it ,

[@Youthman]

Glad you’re enjoying the videos.

[@dc5001]

@Youthman I think it would help allot of viewers if you would make a another avr vs pre pro video, but more apple's to apples comparisons this time.

[@Herofmine]

I upgraded my system from sr8015 to Anthem avm 70 + Monolith 7x200, sounds much better!

[@MrPreet23]

If you get best AVP with amplifier that can only push say 50 watts per channel then definitely it won’t be any worth . If you need best outcome from the AVP then get the best amplifier then both will go hand in hand for best audio experience

[@asplmn]

IME, any differences are more pronounced with critically listening to music than with shows (if you already have a solid AVR that is...)

[@jono6379]

I was recently watching skylabs audio's video on vintage speakers and he says he uses an audio authority comparator which might be worth looking into if you want to do more A/B comparisons. Also can someone tell me why there are no cheap processors?

[@glynmatthews678]

Even in high end 2 channel music system they always go down the route of seperating the functions...

[@stacypeacock7716]

I’m currently using the denon x4700h in pre amp mode, but I’m wanting to go for a processor. Would it be considered an upgrade if I switched to the marantz av8802a over the denon.

[@georgefrazier8404]

Youthman, in one of your videos with your JVC 3100 projector you said you could not fill your screen properly because of the length of your room, what setting in the projector did you use to be able to fill your screen? I also have a JVC 3100 and because of the location of my projector I cannot fill up my whole 2.4 screen there’s about 2 inches all the way around it …was it the aspect ratio setting in the JVC with the zoom option?

[@Youthman]

There is a setting you change from “native” to “zoom”. I was told that utilizes the entire sensor so it actually gives you more light output, but also zooms in just a bit.

[@georgefrazier8404]

Thank you so much that’s what I thought and that’s what I did. I didn’t mean to put this post on this video I must’ve hit the wrong one but anyways thank you very much for answering me. I just joined your guys group on Facebook, so hopefully it goes through soon.

[@Youthman]

@georgefrazier8404 I just approved you. Welcome!

[@abdoeraouftitus8066]

Hi guys very good debate seperates is better whether you take a top avr Vs a decent seperrate system the detail is better better DACs in seperates and better you will have better control on your speakers from a separate amp as you guys said also depends which seperates you go in thanks guys although sometimes we don't agree I still love your videos

[@Youthman]

These are showing you can have healthy discussions without arguing

[@troylouth948]

Love your channel just wondering if you’re still doing the power amp comparison From m wave thank you

[@laspaceboy]

Michael, curious if you’re running your left and right mains as “small” or large/full range?

[@Youthman]

Small

[@1tmo4sho]

I’d love an A/B comparison with same quality pre processors and AVR’s. I’m using pre outs on my Denon. If I’m going to upgrade I want to be scientifically convinced and see what a majority of regular people listening in person would think with this comparison. Also wondering about decoupling like IsoAcoustics products and how that compares and/or changes quality...how does an AVR with speaker decoupling (Gaia) compare to a pre pro with a better DAC that doesn’t have decoupling?

[@dakeved]

It would be hard to ever convince me that a top receiver will ever out perform top separates. The amplification alone is better when separated, especially in larger rooms.

[@welderfixer]

Wouldn't a Pre-pro and amps make the most sense with 4ohm speakers? Could a processor may have better software and/or a better processor chip? They are much higher priced than an AVR. It seems like a separates system is more of the professional set-up. In my feeble mind I look at a separate amp like the difference in a small pickup truck vs a tractor trailer. Raw power. Depending on the AVR(price related), dynamic speaker control just cannot be had with 15 watts per channel at movie watching SPL levels. I can't wait for someone to prove out the question posed in this video. Surely for most families it's moot point due to cost of gear. I know it is for me. I gotta be happy with the current rig.

[@jimhamlin6551]

when you are doing a blind test or any kind of test...you are relying on your memory recall ....and some people might have a better recall than other people ...so how do you test your memory recall for accuracy as to what you have heard or seen...you are just making a judgement call on what you think you have remembered and if it is that close as to which sounds better to you and you like both it wont matter You can have a new sound system installed and for the first month or two you can hear the difference its either better or not and sometimes its just different and we may confuse that with being better ...but after hearing your new system for 2 months or whatever you get use to it....and then you go out to a sound shop and you hear the latest and greatest and you want that lol ! Then as you age every bodys hearing changes and you dont hear the quality of the sound like you use to, because you may be losing a certain hearing range...eg I went to get my hearing tested and was told I was losing my middle range and if I was sitting on the sofa watching TV and there was kid noise in the background and my wife was sitting on the sofa with me and she started talking to me i might not be able to hear what she was saying....And I said whats wrong with that??? lol Have a good one! And remember be kind to your hearing ...you will want to be able to hear that Honey Do List ! (or not lol)

[@Youthman]

Only way for Blind A/B comparison to be effective is if you can immediately switch between the AVR and Processor like we did at MWAVE when we compared various room correction in different AVR’s

[@goranzigolic9850]

I'm not the same every day, no one is the same or perfect, we all change, under the influence of pressure, health, love or pain.....everything changes...so...listen to music, if you like music. ..that's the point...I feel like listening and enjoying music has somehow been replaced by looking for micro nanohertz...It's very good for those who sell all these things... I THINK I'll spend all my money on vinyl or cd only ....that's it.

[@Youthman]

You are correct. We all have different goals and desires. If yours is for vinyl and CD’s, that’s awesome! Enjoy the Journey

[@benwilj1]

I want to make the switch to separates soon as my Yamaha rxa2050 main board died a second time and i don't want to dump more money into it. My thought is to separate processing and amplification to eliminate heat from the processing unit hoping it last longer. I only run a 7.1 setup for my theater but I have a patio and another zone indoors. what do you think about my plan and what do you recommend to make the switch. I'm open to another av unit as long as I can fully deactivate the av amplification when i add an external amp later.

[@joraspa]

In the process of upgrading from a Denon AVR-X4500H to separates. Marantz AV7706 and ToneWinner Amps. Hoping I hear a difference! Can we get a budget review of the ToneWinner Amp? They are coming out with an 11 channel in a few weeks. Could be a good chance for a review! Thanks for the great content guys!

[@andrewskaterrr]

I saw someone with both ToneWinner and Monoprice say that the ToneWinner had a lower noise floor, which surprised me. Monoprice is made by ATI, TW is believed to be made by Emotiva's manufacturer.

[@muhammadwasim9861]

Keep Coming these Informational Clips. I'm Learning a Lot from these..... Amazing Content 👍. ❤️ From 🇵🇰

[@Youthman]

Thank you

[@boigoe]

Hi are u guys running seperartes

[@RareFXChrisC]

I guess I am on level 2... Level 1: HTIB Level 2: AVR Level 3: AVR + Amp Level 4: Processor + Amp

[@vasanthanb1947]

If there is no difference between AVR & separates then separates doesn’t exist .

[@Youthman]

That doesn’t logically make sense. Separates simply refers to separating the amplifier from the processor. Whether you can hear a difference doesn’t negate that it’s still separates.

[@manuel2782]

XLRS sounds better

[@techcode_man]

Can you tell the difference? Trust your ears not the measurements 😅