Bad companies don't respect backers. Demand better!

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0:00 Intro
2:45 Bad
12:13 Good

[@morgaknightgames]

If I know a company is running a "pre-order for the pre-order" nonsense, I will not buy the game at all, not even at retail. Luckily there's plenty of other games out there, which makes moving on easy.

[@beornthebear9023]

I think dragori is working hard to make up for how late they were on prior campaigns. It think it is a good example of thoughtful marketing. They are aware of what many people’s worry with their company is and are putting what they plan to do to not repeat that mistake big and center on the page. Personally Tanares being so late didn’t bother me that much at the end of the day I would always rather late and well made than something half baked

[@rebornholy]

Yeah, they've certainly picked up their act. It bothers me something being so late because they blew out their delivery by two years and when you order something, you have the right to expect it in a reasonable time frame. These companies getting huffy when backers are pissed they are so late, is ridiculous. They wouldn't tolerate that sort of behaviour if they were customers. Some of these companies need to be forced to complete in reasonable time, or to comply and refund backers. I have a strong feeling about this being an injustice to people and their hard earned money, these are meant to be rejuvenating and exciting but there are too many companies screwing with people's money. I'm glad to see Gamefound doing that Stable Pledge program. They're realising that they could be held accountable and liable for these companies stealing using their portal and platform.

[@cyber_bruno880]

Also want to throw Cysmic's creator in the ring for good practice. Even before it funded that guy was in every comment, even urging people be smart with their money and accepting the folks who were regretfully expressing the game may not be for them. Last night's Update 10 is just a whole 'nother story, and I don't know how he handled it that well. Happy it's over though, and props to him and his respect for others

[@jhash2625]

I'll add Rob Lemon to the list, one guy and still manages to handle all the (sometimes weird) backer requests for his Dark Venture campaigns

[@EarthenGames]

I was late to the party when I pledged just a week or so ago, but I am now fully aboard the Cysmic hype train. I’m taking notes on how Jason is running that campaign. I feel similarly about Addax Games and their Rove campaign which was robust and completely transparent. I know there’s a lot of dubious trends in the market right now, but there’s a lot of good eggs we shouldn’t forget and actually learn from

[@kenwad75]

I think we should stop using the term consumer to crowdfunding backers as we don't have all the protections that consumers do. The companies know this and some manipulate that to their advantage. When I started years ago backing projects there was a greater respect for "investors" now most companies treat us like a ATM with a limited access pin number. I feel like a risk free loan that may or may not ever get my value back. As long as we are aware of it and call it out we can become better informed parts of this industry.

[@CheddahSlammer]

Yep to many of them, were simply gifting them the money for their project, and they don't have to complete it because their is no binding contract.

[@phloog]

A new problem I’m hitting on a couple projects: outsourcing the betrayal. This is when a nice company runs a great and ethical campaign, then partners with an unethical company later to try to improve fulfillment. Saw this with Crystallo…everything was great, then she partners with Deep Water which magically turned into Friendly Skeleton which magically vanished and now more than a year later all backers are hosed and getting zero communication.

[@Duaneski]

#Cysmic doing right by its backers. Transparency and great value. Update 6 and 10 gonna start a new trend in crowdfunding!!!

[@ThymeKeeper]

I am getting less and less willing to back games at all. I never liked it in the first place since spending money for something you aren't getting for a couple of years just isn't good money management. But there were games I was interested in enough that I found it an easy thing to slide into. However, there have been enough cases of gamers getting ripped off (although I haven't been) that I will pretty much just wait until it delivers and I can find out how good the game actually IS. I have never not been able to get something on the secondary market for pretty much the same price. The only time I back anything anymore is when it's basically a preorder for a base game and I'm getting a better than retail price on it.

[@johnfavaro8008]

I've been calling out this pre-back for a while. I made one exception and that was it. I've stopped backing any project that has tried to pull this at any price point and I've been vocal about it. The one exception I had made was only because I had already seen tons of coverage for the game before they launched the campaign.

[@crimsonsun2000]

As you know this pissed me off, I am going to back this, I will not pay upfront for a pre-order because while I know I want it, I cannot support that behaviour even if it costs me a few bucks more. Its a matter of principle. I'm doing my end of year exam today so this is a nice break from work, I have 24 hours to answer 3 detailed questions and two essay format questions and having been at it for 5 hours and being half way through I could do with a break and to think about something else.

[@sebastians.792]

Thank you!!!! 👍🙏

[@Rajja29]

Thanks for all the great food for thought

[@Aegith345]

Regarding Dragori: I would appreciate their valuing their customers with a decent storage solution. At $1000 for Tanares all-in spread among 3 campaigns running before any of them delivered, with the final campaign offering a new storage solution to cut down on space, that actually takes up more shelf space =(

[@Dulmer80s]

Excellent t-shirt🤩 ..and suitable for the topic ..good and bad citizens (Companies😄)

[@TheKingofAverage]

:D

[@markr6273]

Europa Universalis was a boardgame, turned into a videogame, turned into a boardgame again

[@TheKingofAverage]

Hah! I hadn't realized. I knew of the video game before I ever got into board games

[@thomaswillinger4824]

@@TheKingofAverage I played all of them and they are all great. Easy all in in the next Gamefound campaign

[@gtb_pete]

I will never back a project with the pre pledge ask.. in fact, I stop with the one dollar back for comments as well

[@ericcook8254]

I stopped using Kickstarter. To many scammers and Kickstarter doesn't even enforce its own rules. Aka letting creators make numerous kickstarters with out fullfilling any.

[@andykaufman7620]

Omimaru and Manchuquo are shipping Penguin and Panda Publishing are finally delivering to backers. Batman Season 3 is also nearly here, and a few others have delivered so there are moments of good news.

[@yogibbear]

It's the new horse armour! FFS this is the entire reason why I started playing boardgames in the first place! 😱

[@TheKrong]

Micro transactions are a plague, but at least when you buy horse armor, you get it right away haha. Of course, when the servers go down for x, y, or z game, you won't have access to it anymore, but if the board game ever delivers, it could theoretically last forever.

[@rebornholy]

Can you please link me to the FTC page you mentioned?

[@catello4444]

Please, need it too

[@TheKingofAverage]

I gotcha: bit.ly/FTC30DayRule

[@catello4444]

@@TheKingofAverage thanks!

[@catello4444]

@@TheKingofAverage hoping that would help me with epic seven arise project

[@rebornholy]

@@TheKingofAverage thank you bud Appreciate you a lot man

[@Aegith345]

Also like to add I passed on one or two campaigns I may have backed due to their $1 pre campaign support for exclusive items.

[@CGOLAN]

I am pledging all-in or nothing, avoiding products that contains important looking game pieces not available later. So from my point of view there the floor limit equals the basic max limit I guess.

[@Sthunderrocker]

I recently requested a refund for Stalker. When I bought the all in I was satisfied. When I found out that was only half of a true all in, my desire for the game got out priced.

[@jasonpadgett1333]

But now companies are even blocking these “pre-pledge” bonuses from their all-in pledges. Look at Kinfire Council. Their “all-in” pledge did not include the $20 mini-expansion that you got “for free” by doing a pre-pledge. So to get everything, your all-in would cost $20 more than someone who gave them money before the campaign started.

[@bendevor]

Read the fine print on the 5 months guarantee, it is if the delivery once the goods reach the hub from your home, not at all from the initial delivery time. If it really take AGAIN more than 5 months to deliver products that are on their hubs there is a big problem with this company. It came from the fact that they sold products they did not manufacture at all for the TA kickstarter and these backers are supposed to receive them during the the final kickstarter more than 1 year after the original delivery. They will refund them this time, great, not sure it is the solution.

[@TheKrong]

Yeah, I suspect that if they have major problems after implementing this "promise", they wouldn't be able to afford to actually fulfill it and would just close up shop. This "promise" was made to try and keep people that know the history of their company from running for the hills with their wallets intact.

[@michaelalves8900]

No, that is incorrect. If we don't send you a tracking number showing the goods have already been separated on the hub and in the process of going to your home inside the time of the guarantee, we will allow you to ask for full refund.

[@stuck804]

"5 months guaranteed" is a marketing ploy. It would mean more, and be more effective, if instead they show their track record from previous campaigns. Of course they can't because they haven't done a very good job. Please don't fall for this marketing gimmick and believe they care more about you than those who don't have this guarantee listed on their page.

[@TheKrong]

They can't really show that because it's atrocious in the case of Dragori games. I just got the last box of my Tanares Adventures 1.5 pledge last week. This was after the first part of the pledge being years late that I got a little more than a year ago. They claimed to have changed shipping partners and replaced half their staff or more, but they are going to have to do a LOT to get me to order anything more from them. With all the games coming out from an increasing number of companies, I think companies really need to think carefully about their actions when there is an abundance of choices and it is not difficult to find another game you like out there, fomo or not.

[@michaelalves8900]

If we fail to send you the tracking code, you will be eligible for a 100% refund, so how is that not effective? Also, our last campaign had a similar guarantee, and we are delivering everything as promised inside the timeframe we provided, even with all the hassles with Suez. =D

[@Doujou]

@kingofaverage On this topic, there’s a campaign going that did $1 pre-campaign, doing fake limited pledges, and just had an animator post in the KS comments about getting stiffer money. His comments got taken down and are “under review” but I can send you screen shots if you want to cover it.

[@Doujou]

They’re also doing another weird shady thing with SGs too

[@TheKingofAverage]

Which campaign?

[@Doujou]

Valerius

[@rebornholy]

@King im interested in some clarity on your feelings about Dragori, you breifly touched on in the video. Could you give us the story? If its in another vid, can you point me there?

[@Doujou]

The 5mo thing from Dragori is nice…but didn’t Mythic have a refund guarantee too that means jack squat now?

[@Heidelmann]

Having just received a missing expansion from Tanares Adventures 2 years after my original delivery date. I don't know if I trust that promise.

[@Sthunderrocker]

​@@HeidelmannI'm assuming you are one who was screwed by the local hub reversing which list got painted minis twice?

[@TheKingofAverage]

Mhm, there is always a risk I said this when first covering the stable pledge too. The rough part is there is no resolving the issue of paying now, getting later. The in between is inherent risk. So then, reducing that time is best. That means games farther along in development and readiness (and then more proper funding goals to match). The idea in theory then is being more confident in the delivery date means farther along product which means a reduction in risk. Never a sure thing, but hope the layers help

[@Heidelmann]

@@Sthunderrocker not sure what happened, I assumed I was added to a long list of problems and it was one hell of a long list

[@arthurdent9281]

​@@HeidelmannThe kind of thing that happened to you is exactly why they changed the way they're handling their campaigns, changed the companies the partner with, and added personnel specifically to handle fulfillment.

[@jamestaylor5657]

Completely agree. I don't mind them asking for my email if it gives me some benefit. But I will not pay cash for the privilege. Phallanx games did an email pre-mail thing which got you a special mini if you did that. I'm fine with that. It helps them sort the campaign and costs me nothing. But asking me to invest a in a game that doesn't even have the full page up... Nah.

[@eckberger]

Have you already published the names of the winners of the games from your support campagn? Did I miss it? I'm just curious who got all this games.....

[@TheKingofAverage]

Will set a date tomorrow!

[@eckberger]

@@TheKingofAverage And? Which date is it?

[@davidagosta]

I'd have a lot more confidence in the first company delivering than the second. What percentage needs to request a refund if it slips before they decide - we can't afford to keep this promise sp we're shuttering operations, sorry no one gets anything even those who don't want a refund.

[@michaelalves8900]

We already offered this in our previous campaign and are delivering with success. =D

[@AethelingArt]

Nice t-shirt!

[@TheKingofAverage]

Thanks! :)

[@Local_Field1972]

Dragori was the catalyst that made me quit crowdfunding, and board games as a whole really. Tanares Adventures was an absolute mess, and then the kick in the teeth when they try to sell me a storage solution to the PROBLEM they created? No thanks. I always saw through Mythic Games' shady tactics and resisted the urge to back their games. They had a lot of stuff I truly wanted but I never liked how they did business.

[@Sthunderrocker]

I'm sorry that happened to you. As a later backer who is thrilled so far, I appreciate what you went through.

[@TheKrong]

Count me among the ones that got screwed and only just got the second part of my Tanares Adventures pledge last week...so maybe, 2-3 years late if not more.

[@CheddahSlammer]

Eh, their was nothing wrong with Tanares adventures without the Storage Solution. They are just catering to their fan base that wanted one, you didn't have to get it if you didn't want too. Even Dragori stated that they didn't think Storage was a problem because everything was in separate boxes for how you wanted to play the game. People still were asking them to give one large box. Not to mention this is a thing with all games that are this big. Look at Oathsworne, people still want 1 big box over the 3 you get in the all in.

[@jasonpadgett1333]

@@CheddahSlammernot to mention that Tanares grew organically over several campaigns as Dragori just kept adding features and content to Arena. Tanares is certainly an embarrassment of riches, and a storage headache, but I cannot bring myself to fault the company for that. In being late, though, I think they clearly bit off too much and appear to have learned from that.

[@CrossoXoHair]

Have a look at Adventures in Neverland! That's some dodgy shit!

[@timrusk1916]

Glad you are back, but some more positive focused videos might be nice

[@Sthunderrocker]

In fairness he's one of very few who ever address negative issues.

[@TheKingofAverage]

This is always an issue and I get it. Looking at my video history it's like, 90% positive. But the issue we all have as humans is the focus on the negative. Even this video is half good :) We want to enjoy the hobby and negativity around it can hurt that enjoyment.

[@timrusk1916]

I do appreciate the perspective that he brings and the information he presents. I especially appreciated the video warning about Terraria. I’d just love to see a bit of balance in his videos, or maybe just the presentation( titles, thumbnails) with a positive spin. An example would be, games I’m most looking forward to getting to the table in my new space. Or recent games that interest me most(while I was away)

[@arthurdent9281]

I appreciate useful and relevant information, regardless of whether it's positive or not. When companies do shady things, it should be covered.

[@5p3cu10]

crowdfunding micro transactions xD video game BS leaking over

[@Aroundthestumpgames]

I’m going to get flamed for this I’m sure. There is a pressure on publishers which is why pre-pledges still exist. As a publisher we have to invest into the product, then gauge interest, then decide if we will invest further into the product. The challenge is gauging interest is hard cause Playtester’s “lie.” I put lie in quotations because they’re not being intentionally dishonest, they’re just excited to play something new but not necessarily ready to support that game. Email lists signups also “lie” in this same way. Most publishers who do the pre pledges are really just trying to better inform their decisions by asking the question “are enough people willing to give us money for this project for it to be worth finishing development?” Personally I won’t be doing pre-pledges because I don’t think it’s the best way to handle this challenge. But after having lost $35,000 in my first kickstarter project, I understand the desire.

[@harmarize]

I wouldnt use lie even in quotes. You know how many times I followed a page only to not back? A ton. Here are the main reasons going from most to least 1) Too expensive I may be extremely interested in the game and want it, only to see that the amount the game would cost (incl shipping) is way higher than I expected, or value wasnt there for me 2) Not enough details The game sounded great in previews, however once campaign launches, no gameplay videos, no rulebook, not releasing all the pledges, shady practices, etc 3) No longer interested anymore. At one point I was really interested, but maybe life changed, maybe I got another game since I followed that fits that niche, or maybe I did "lie" and wasnt even that interested to begin with

[@Aroundthestumpgames]

@@harmarize that’s why I didn’t include following kickstarter pages as one of the things that “lie” to publishers. It’s the premarketing stuff that we do as publishers that can result in us being mislead about the interest in the game. Way before there is a kickstarter page up to be followed we’re already asking Playtester’s how much do they like the game, how much they think the game should cost, and who they would like to play with. Then we start showing it off at conventions, doing small test ad campaigns and our email list begins to grow. During that time we get good open rates and very few (if any) readers ever respond with concerns about the decisions we’re making. So with those things going well, we’re told by the numbers we have a game that should have significant support from certain communities and we hire an illustrator, a graphic designer, a marketing team, we print prototypes (which typically cost about 4x what we charge for the game) send them to previewers, we have to pay for play through content and rules videos, then we hire a marketing team to grow the audience as large as possible over the course of two months before the launch.

[@mmag3609]

So why backers should take even bigger financial risk? As a publisher using crowdfunding you're already in much better position than any company that has to release their product straight to retail, using their own money and risking everything... I have another idea how to reduce risk for publishers: start selling idea before even starting working on a game... Let's say... "150$ for our next game. Not sure what it gonna be. Warning: Limited quantity!" See, even less risk for publisher👍

[@TheKingofAverage]

I don't think you'll be flamed, and I think we all understand the mentioned desire, though it's debated on how effective it is. I think, however that it's quite important to note how even in the explanation, only business is mentioned. Not once is is how this treats backers, of what this means for backers etc. as said by many in comments and this video, it's a business decision and the recognition of backers money even earlier isn't in the discussion. Backers. Backers first, always. Top of mind, not forgotten, in all discussions and decisions. This is not some store and they are not just customers. They are giving far more than that.

[@Aroundthestumpgames]

@@TheKingofAverage they were left out of my response for an important reason. In every social agreement both parties need to consider each other’s needs. This video was presented from the backers perspective my response was from the publisher prospective. Backers need to be treated with respect and gratitude, and their money should be especially respected and cared for. Publishers need to receive good and accurate feedback. Emails we send out can be engaged with and responded to. Backers can communicate early if they’d like things to go in a different direction. Surveys should be completed honestly. And when backers loose interest in a project please stop following it. If publishers get good communication it relieves some of the pressure that causes many to make decisions like the pre pledge. BTW, if you ever want a peak inside my operations and how I ensure backers are cared for I’ll be happy to have a chat

[@LeeroyPorkins]

Look at what they need to mimic Zombicide's power

[@zerosdeath]

Join me... on the Zombie...side!!

[@nobbynobbs8182]

Shout out to gamelyn games. They always deliver and their customer support is excellent