Bad History - 1421 by Gavin Menzies

This video talks about a famous example of bad history: 1421 by Gavin Menzies. In 1421, he claims China discovered America, Australia, Antarctica, and took Siberia home. No really.
➤ Support this channel with my Patreon!: / emperortigerstar
Cynical Historian's channel: / cynicalcypher88

[@EmperorTigerstar]

This book hurt.

[@al-dimashqi]

Agree

[@edenli6421]

It is cringey, yea

[@edenli6421]

I suggest you try the Short History timeline that rose to fame in the 90s because Garry Kasparov believed it.

[@hjorth3387]

You at least made a good video out of it.

[@mikado6407]

lmao

[@user-cq5hq5ce8f]

1421 was an important date because the Ming moved the capital from Nanjing to Beijing, where the Forbidden City is located.

[@QuizmasterLaw]

But MENZIES will prove THIS is why the NORTH won the American Civil War!

[@StarWarsJokes]

@@QuizmasterLaw wtf are you saying, the South won the napoleonic wars!

[@oworcestershire7331]

@@StarWarsJokes No! The *Japanese* did

[@StarWarsJokes]

@@oworcestershire7331 my bad I forgot about that

[@hmk1635]

@@oworcestershire7331 Japan won the Rhodesian bush wars. Get your facts straight.

[@iyoungblood2109]

The fleet made it to Australia, then Anarctica, then the Americas, then the moon, then Mars, then Pluto, then Tatooine, then an alternate dimension.......

[@diggs5142]

That's how Mafia works

[@Kai555100]

U forgot there voyage to Wakanda

[@Peizxcv]

To be fair I think the guy said it was multiple fleet and not the entire fleet making all those journey

[@Jokkkkke]

Oh fuck don't give Menzies more ideas

[@leonardofranzinribeiro4220]

@@Jokkkkke ***1420-1469: The Chinese space empire***

[@Corium1]

This sounds like a very crazy EU4 game.

[@fredricknoe3114]

We need this as a hoi4 mod.

[@sextuspompeius1266]

@@fredricknoe3114 why does everything need to be a hoi4 mod

[@fredricknoe3114]

@@sextuspompeius1266 this comment is now a hoi4 mod

[@sextuspompeius1266]

@@fredricknoe3114 hmm

[@heavenwatcher100]

It's not crazy to accomplish the circumglobal navigation with Ming if you are a proficient EU4 player. But still mindblowing in the real timeline.

[@scrambled5948]

When I was a kid, I thought the First World War was declared due to the sinking of the titanic.

[@starmaker75]

You think that bad, I thought there were battles in the South American during the Napoleon wars went I was kid.

[@willoliver8167]

Polandgod 75 you knew what the napoleonic wars were when you were a kid?

[@lapisleafuli1817]

I thought that the Americas were just the US,Canada and Mexico and that Britain was bigger than the US.....

[@memebrowser_6249]

Wasn’t it?

[@kingusernamelxixthemagnifi3488]

I had a cousin thinking that.

[@azisshelab2542]

This guy obviously played a civ game and wrote a book about it.

[@pewdiepieisstillabadyoutub4490]

No, Because Sumer Colonized South America In The 16th Century!

[@gu98marrafon174]

And Korea went to space in 1765

[@PatriotMapper]

Actually, Roman Empire discovered America in the 2nd century. And Poland went to space in the 17th century.

[@olololo9206]

Poland went to space in 1795 when it had to escape from earth

[@twkofficial]

Russia invaded USA in 1593 to get more land

[@AlternateHistoryHub]

Oof

[@jamwither9847]

Oof

[@randowdude6847]

The real oof is Your amount of likes in this comment

[@peterk.9571]

Why are you here

[@brandonvistan7444]

Make a video where Gavin Menzies actually made a factual book on the Ming.

[@agentripxrp1]

This post is 10/10 what a great joke

[@cebenify]

Chinese imperialism was never about overseas colonies. It was about exacting tribute and acknowledging the Yongle emperor as the son of heaven.

[@oworcestershire7331]

I believe there may be a misunderstanding

[@timothymclean]

It's almost as if Menzies took his pre-existing understanding of how exploration worked (based on the history he actually knew and understood), and assumed every culture would explore and empire in the same way.

[@arkadeepkundu4729]

That's kinda what modern Chinese foreign policy is like as well.

[@trihermawan9553]

@@arkadeepkundu4729 the mandate of heaven is lost wdym about that?

[@whafflete6721]

@@trihermawan9553 Imo it's passed on ROC which kinda exist in Taiwan

[@connorbrotcke254]

I almost spit out my coffee when he said Minoans in America lmfaooo

[@hmmmhmmm6917]

Lol

[@timothymclean]

It's like he combined the Minoan-Atlantis hypothesis with an attempt to rationalize -Plato's- Solon's account of Atlantis. (Which was, incidentally, a colonial empire of ridiculous extent.)

[@jbrown8601]

Everybody was up in merica

[@smuu1996]

More of "Bad History" please, this is quite fun and interesting.

[@mjr_schneider]

I think so too, but I predict as soon as he starts getting into more controversial subjects he's going to get a ton of dislikes.

[@perciblejames268]

SMN WGLT guns germs and steel is shit

[@smuu1996]

@@mjr_schneider Well, but it gets more clicks and money. So it's fine.

[@jeffreygao3956]

*throws up* WHY???!!!

[@CynicalHistorian]

Pfff, why wouldn't that guy touch the subject? Hiding behind Durant is no excuse!

[@Dragons_Armory]

WIlson sneers at this post 🧐 Har Har Har, US in WW1 was totally justified not for US but for all men, and so is Birth da Nation, disagree with me and you disrespect da States of the United.

[@MMFan2004]

WIIILLLLSSSOOONNNN!

[@Etropalker]

All the good maps were obviously sourced from the romans who migrated to the moon after the fall of rome

[@starventure]

Etropalker Because you asked for it... www.goodreads.com/book/show/933497.Romans_And_Aliens

[@aagh8714]

@@starventure HNNNNNGHHHAAAAAA

[@taylorford1689]

@@starventure I'm disappointed about how it is not about Roman alien legions... Also, i want to mention that one guy said that the book was well laid out and had interesting information but gave 2 stars.

[@oz_jones]

Space Romans, my arch -nemesis!

[@officialromanhours]

Julianus Romes again, cretans!

[@wongjonathan7407]

As a chinese myself, I am really angered by this terrible 'historian' who doesn't even respect chinese history and is basically trying to capitalise on the fact that most people dont know much about chinese history

[@brig.gen.georgiiisserson7226]

the flying piglet I absolutely despise con artist

[@wongjonathan7407]

@@brig.gen.georgiiisserson7226 same here

[@theZCAllen]

@@RoyontheHill oh you, you are a funny man

[@nakenmil]

It's a shame, because REAL Chinese history is already interesting as hell.

[@Selvyre]

@@nakenmil That's what I was thinking. You really don't need to spice up Chinese history, because it's already intense and awesome. I that's why I dislike the book even more than I normally would, because China really doesn't need propaganda to make its history look even more interesting than it already is. Now, if this book was in a less-interesting place, then maybe I could see that, but China already had so much going for it. This is like making the main character of a book That One Guy who does literally everything of note and everyone just has to stand in awe of them since it's not like they have anything more useful to do anyway when the main character just does it all by himself.

[@heavenwatcher100]

I am Chinese. But I will still say this book serves better as a fantasy novel than a solid research publication. The furthest confirmed destination of the treasure fleet was modern Somalian coast.

[@EmpireTVDragon]

China shouldn't have gone isolationist. Ming could probably survive if so. The Ming could escape to Australia probably and find ways to retake Qing.

[@approximateCognition]

@@EmpireTVDragon Sounds like a scenario for a HOI4 mod.

[@whafflete6721]

@@EmpireTVDragon I'd say Australia is too far away and only the coastal area would be more habitable.Even then you have to face the issue of polar opposite season with the mainland,aboriginals and everything in Australia that wants to kill you,which basically means everything.

[@EmpireTVDragon]

@@whafflete6721 Yeah but the Aboriginals in Australia have basically stone age technologies with only few metals they got from trading with the Malays. They are in no shape to fight against the organised Ming army with even some gun powders. Don't forget the Mings have diseases that the aboriginal haven't been exposed to. The Ming will likely just permanently call Australia home. Australia will be too far away for Qing to care about it, and it will over extend their border if they conquer it. Assuming Qing will still fall like in our world. The Ming will try to retake mainland, but probably fail due to distance. We will end up with 2 Chinese cultured Nation.

[@georgeptolemy7260]

@@EmpireTVDragon 3*

[@TheTank1900]

I love how the "Asiatic Chickens" Thing as a piece of evidence is so woefully lacking in knowledge about the history of the region, considering one of the major reasons Spain sanctioned an invasion of Mexico and Central America, aside from stories of gold, was the long-sought-after access to Asia, and one of the first thing the Spanish did after conquering the region was build a Pacific port, a road running across the continent, and start shipping goods from Manila to Veracruz where it could make it's way back to Spain, so of course some livestock would make it there as well.

[@victorvanraaij8532]

Ghandi and Einstein met? Cool.

[@matthewweir286]

How do you think Gandhi knew how to make nukes?

[@kurtvanduran7725]

Ghandi also met general Smuts

[@tyronechillifoot5573]

@@matthewweir286 according to civ games yes

[@howtubeable]

According to J K Rowling, Ghandi and Einstein were (and still are) black lesbian lovers.

[@victorvanraaij8532]

@@howtubeable of course

[@bothewolf3466]

I like how they specifically, according to Mezies map, AVOIDED Europe like the (black?) plague. A rich trading destination that they would have learned about from other trading ports...that is if they did not all ready know about the Roman empire, or have had contact with Marco Polo, etc by 142; which of course, China DID know by then. I'll put this book in my pile with the lost civilization of Muu books. Now I have to go met Ctuhulu and Yeti on Mars to found the new Mongol Khanate.

[@oz_jones]

The open steppe of the Andromeda Belt... good times

[@laurienickless5564]

Recently translated record describes 1433 visit to Venice and Po valley. Account even includes a quote from the Old Testament, which is impossible unless the Chinese were actually there..

[@hauntologicalwittgensteini2542]

@@laurienickless5564 or more accurately and less batshit crazy, the fact that China and the West has been trading since the Ancient Era

[@normalperson2462]

@@hauntologicalwittgensteini2542 which there is historical record for and even rome and China had contact and Roman, and Chinese officials would've met if the Persian empire wasn't cutting them off because they didn't want the two major nations on both sides of them becoming friends.

[@BlueDragon257257]

He played Eu4 and chose the fantasy new world option and saw that there were Chinese settlements and assumed it was historically accurate.

[@thenamesianna]

He wanted to tell people about his EU4 campaign but the ghost writers misinterpreted 😭😭😭😭😭

[@MrOwnerandPwner]

You're not insinuating that the Glorious Lechina Empire was pseudohistory, are you? It's 10,000 years old you know.

[@numanbaran8607]

MOAP BIG

[@peterfox1380]

MOAP YOU'RE STILL ALIVE

[@Jamie-kg8ig]

No joke my history professor from last semester believed what Menzies said. Completely absurd.

[@jaojao1768]

Lol

[@Jokkkkke]

What university do you go to?!

[@brig.gen.georgiiisserson7226]

He shouldn’t be a professor

[@frenchflag9390]

Jamie Did he lose his job?

[@nakenmil]

I had a biology teacher in high school once who didn't seem to believe in evolution. I'm still kinda gobsmacked about that to this day.

[@texasyojimbo]

Re: 1434... maybe Menzies will write his next book on 1443, the year China invented time travel?

[@fredericksmith7942]

Let’s not forget 1451 where Chinese Space Marines conquer Jupiter.

[@SilverMe2004]

You do know that time travel is illegal in China?

[@whafflete6721]

@@fredericksmith7942 "The solar system has been a part of China since ancient times and is inseparable" -Ming probably

[@hmmmhmmm6917]

@@purvdragon-sensei bruh

[@jeffreygao3956]

Too dead to write it.

[@annayosh]

I used to have contact with some historians who work in the area of voyages of exploration. Some of them actually went to libraries asking the Menzies book to be moved from the 'history' section to the 'fiction' section. That's how much real historians disagree and dislike this.

[@brig.gen.georgiiisserson7226]

Andre Engels that’s a good thing

[@brig.gen.georgiiisserson7226]

We should oppose this book ever being considered history

[@MrModum]

Just to wind this thing up for sport...if you look at sculptures available online from the Olmec period in the S. American peninsular region... you will find it very hard to differentiate them from Chinese....maybe this is where Menzies got his inspiration...?

[@GreenCanvasInteriorscape]

@@MrModum those statues look Polynesian or African, and all are depicted wearing the similar helmet, what are you trying to say? I often contemplate how Chinese looking Mexican folks here are

[@jeffreygao3956]

@@GreenCanvasInteriorscape Aren’t there actual Asian Mexicans? Ethnic diversity is the norm in Latin America rather than the exception.

[@orenashkenazi9813]

Question if someone has time to enlighten me: When Menzies says he saw "1421" in the Forbidden City, does he mean that he saw a date in the Chinese calendar that was the equivalent of 1421, or did he see the actual number 1421 and he thinks the Chinese were using the Julian or Gregorian Calendar?

[@normalperson2462]

Probably the latter

[@andrewpinedo1883]

@@normalperson2462Actually, probably the former. As someone else pointed out, 1421 was an important year in Chinese history because it was the year that the Ming dynasty moved the capital from Nanjing to Beijing.

[@Condobius]

Glad this came out considering the map on the left in the thumbnail was used by my AP World History teacher on a test. I stared at it for a few minutes and then just went on with my test. She claims China discovered the new world in their treasure ships and also that Ancient Egyptians came to the Americas based off evidence found in the Grand Canyon... I just try and keep my head down in there

[@shooterrick1]

You should contact the school administration. Someone like that shouldn't be allowed to teach.

[@SamAronow]

1421: The Year That Is a Clickbait Title

[@JHohenhauser]

When you use Console Commands in EU4

[@antek1854]

0:30 this map haunts us in Poland Jesus... there is a myth that this is an actual map of some empire, destroyed long before Poland even existed

[@MaylocBrittinorum]

Is that thing similar to the conspiracy theories posted by Romanian, Serb and Ukrainian ultranationalists about an "all-powerful empire that misteriously vanished and was coincidentally centered around our modern homeland, making us the greatest people in the world"?

[@antek1854]

@@MaylocBrittinorum yuuup

[@nanaya7e433]

@@MaylocBrittinorum Yeah, pretty much. Its name is even derived from the old name of Poland. They also explain the mysterious vanishing of this empire with the Catholic church destroying all evidence for a pagan empire. The most recurring argument I hear from them is: "Do you seriously think no one lived in these lands before Christianization?", which just shows what level of intelligence we're dealing with here. It's even worse since this map of this supposed empire even covers lands belonging to other well-documented countries (like Eastern Rome).

[@antek1854]

historum.com/threads/the-falsity-of-the-lechina-empire.122310/ ok, so Emporor also knows this problem. There is a discussion beetween him and some poles, explaning this hoax

[@Artur_M.]

@@nanaya7e433 The best part about this is that some of what little "evidence" they have comes from the early (rather fantastical) parts of the 13th-century _Chronica seu originale regum et principum Poloniae_ or just _Chronica Polonorum_ for short by Wincenty Kadłubek, who of course was a priest! The retired bishop of Kracow and Blessed of the Catholic Church since 1764 even. But no, the lack of evidence is evidence that the evil clergy destroyed the evidence.

[@dams6829]

This guy might be decent historical fiction writer. Like make fictions like these with few reliable sources like that ship but without addressing them as a fact.

[@lskywalkeys1]

I never heard of this book until two days ago when I listened to a podcast (History of Rome by Mike Duncan) where the host apologised for recommending this book on audible because he later discovered it was pseudohistory. What a coincidence.

[@Rynewulf]

I've seen it retain a top spot in the history section of most bookshops every year since it was published, and references to the idea that China colonised California I've seen all over the place since

[@SentryWill]

"Hello, and welcome to the History of Rome. Episode 178, Not With a Bang But With a Whimper"

[@jeffreygao3956]

@@Rynewulf Shift it to alternate history or fantasy and now we’re talking!

[@Rynewulf]

@@jeffreygao3956 it regular shows up in alt history mods for paradox grand strategy games, and was a whole vanilla campaign for Age of Empires 3!

[@theskycavedin]

This whole book reeks of rank opportunism. "Hey Chinese people! You guys are so cool. You discovered everything first! Buy my book."

[@nitro5401]

1456: the year chinese walked on the moon

[@Smartacus98]

As an Egyptologists I can relate. Almost everything people think they know about the place is pseudo-history and conspiracy theories.

[@jdhill4]

My girlfriend told me a while back that humans can't really translate hieroglyphics and that it is some sort of conspiracy. I went in to the discussion about the Rosetta stone etc. I was talking to a wall. Needless to say we are no longer together .

[@gregcampwriter]

It's the equivalent of The Da Vinci Code--an amusing read, so long as you understand that they're both alternative history novels. There is a beguiling "what if..." element to both and a lack of supporting evidence for either.

[@jeffreygao3956]

Except the Da Vinci Code's author is a massive egotist.

[@gregcampwriter]

@@jeffreygao3956 So is Gavin Menzies, from what I've seen.

[@DylanDude]

I would love an episode about David Irving.

[@anthonyioane4438]

That would be fascinating and intriguing.

[@starmaker75]

Who he?

[@DylanDude]

Polandgod 75 A pseudohistorian so bad he made up his own sources.

[@anthonyioane4438]

@@starmaker75 David Irving is a historical author who writes about primarily the history of the 1930s and 1940s Europe.

[@anthonyioane4438]

@@DylanDude Don't be a tool and just believe the Victor's side of history.

[@kaikota9107]

If China didn’t make a colony in San Francisco why is there a Chinatown? Czechmate

[@SkepticalChris]

I must correct your statement regarding the Chinese fleets as "exploratory or exploration" fleets. Zheng He and the fleet were not explorers, they were taking well established trade routes as a mission of peaceful power projection for the Ming Empire. The fleet didn't discover anything new they were going around to the nations along the Indian ocean to show that China was open for business and to expand the tribute system.

[@Imilmano]

Burundi changed it's capital city. Could this be a topic for the "New Change on the Map" series?

[@salokin3087]

Thanks for this, this book dumped a lot of bad history into my life that had to be fixed

[@jorelemes]

Worst thing ive ever heard was my history teacher saying that germany invaded the soviet union in 1941 with around 6.000 men. And that leningrad and stalingrad were the same city, but it was called leningrad first and then when stalin came to power he changed it to stalingrad.

[@numanbaran8607]

Can't wait for HISTORY OF THE KINGS OF BRITAIN. Best psuedohistory, debate me.

[@mjr_schneider]

Lies! King Arthur will always be real in my heart!

[@user-xo9ig8kc3u]

The thing is, I don't think that work was taken seriously even at the time it was written. For really 'good' bad history you can go to virtually the entire SE Europe, Turkish, Macedonian, Albanian, Bulgarian and Hungarian poular history all have absolute howlers.

[@numanbaran8607]

@@user-xo9ig8kc3u As a Turk I can confirm you many people in Turkey believe the native Americans are our close relatives. Sink that in.

[@NDOhioan]

@@mjr_schneider PRYDAIN AM BYTH!

[@whafflete6721]

@@mjr_schneider And she's an anime girl

[@nehukybis]

I got this book when it came out. I was really interested in the treasure fleet and I was having difficulty finding much information on it. I was skeptical but I also knew the Chinese were technologically >capable> of making such voyages, so I gave the book a shot. Before I bought the book- it wasn't cheap- I researched what actual historians had to say about it. But the flood of articles that have debunked Menzies' claims hadn't been written yet. Once I got into it I found a number of claims that were simply ridiculous. One that sticks in my mind is that he found a historical account of an Irish town being attacked by vikings. A witness said that the vikings destroyed the town with "fire and the sword." And Menzies said that proved they weren't vikings, they were actually Chinese. Because the Vikings didn't have firearms. I stopped reading the book at that point.

[@thebowiththemost119]

I-wha-what? Di-Did I read that right?

[@theofficialsikris]

The way that he event went about doing his research was wrong. He arrived at a conclusion and then searched for evidence to corroborate his conclusion, which is literally backwards to how you SHOULD do research. He SHOULD have searched for evidence, and then use that evidence to find a conclusion, and if the conclusion corroborates with the evidence at that point, THEN you have stumbled upon something interesting. But this dude literally made an idea in his head, and then strategically manufactured and omitted information to suit the purposes of the narrative he was making.

[@Robi2009]

0:29 - Lechia empire... yeah, in Poland there is a guy publishing books about it and people buy that c.ap ...

[@maciek_k.cichon]

Ah, yes. Gramps turned fun althist story to few crapy readers. I was bookseller and I've sold lots of this c. Not intentionally.

[@tyrson4331]

He puts the Chinese in the same pedestal than the Europeans as “discoverers”. He’s just saying the East was better than the West, without considering the natives Americans

[@Zaphod771]

I'm going to say that in order to actually be good at discovery, you need a written language to record the discovery and communicate it to others, you need the wheel, and you also likely need horses or other methods of long-distance mobility. Otherwise it would take multiple generations to to what European explorers could do in a couple of years. So yes, regardless of how you feel about those explorers, what they were capable of was impressive, and no other culture achieved it. The native Americans failed to achieve it because every one of them was missing some element required to have long-distance exploration, usually a combination of the wheel and a writing system. The South American Empires had writing, but not the wheel. Thus they were unable to impose their culture on other lands as effectively as Europeans (not that they didn't want to).

[@Blakbox92]

I like how the Treasure Fleet visits every corner of the world, including all around Australia and even New Zealand. It's theoretically possible but it's funny imagining these sailors deciding that sailing through the Indonesian archipelago wasn't enough, and then they hit Australia, and they still needed to see more... then they hit New Zealand and were like "alright boys, this is clearly the last islands this way, let's pack it in and go back to China"

[@Quickshot0]

The ship can even have a different explanation yet. Like it could have been made out of old wood that had been left lying around for a good long time, like can some times happen. And some ships have very long histories at sea as well, so who knows how long the ship was in use as well. Thus meaning for all we know it could be from well after the discoveries of the Americas and some person decided to give a go at it themselves after hearing about it.

[@Spitfire-nm6ic]

I noticed on the first "treasure fleet map" that the ships apparently went through the Panama Canal, a canal that wouldn't be built for another 5 hundred years

[@Smokin_Phat_Dabs]

Not all maps were 100% correct and its the reenactment of a prop piece.

[@planescaped]

It took the treasure fleet, manned by a freaking horde of people larger than the population of the entire city of Vienna at the time, 3 years to reach Africa. How TF does Gavin think they had the logistical power to go to America *and* back!? Each of these voyages he claims would have taken decades!

[@BloodRider1914]

You should do a video on John Brinkley, the con artist doctor who almost became governor of Kansas twice

[@daewolfo94]

"Bad History: David Irving" Please

[@jaojao1768]

Yes, good idea

[@gyalpoirgyud4759]

that sounds like good history to me

[@DylanDude]

Fully agree.

[@user-xo9ig8kc3u]

There were literally millions of dollars and thousands of man-hours thrown at his trial yet nothing but a few trivial typological errors and contentious usage of wording were found. But I'd like to see it sure.

[@DylanDude]

12 3 Why was he given a three year sentence, then?

[@Dell-ol6hb]

The New York Times Bestsellers list isn’t even a prestigious award anymore they literally put almost every book on there at some point.

[@aria5614]

If this series keeps up I'll subscribe. It looks good!

[@LcUlric]

I rember this guy. His book was featured in my World History 101. It's been so long I don't rember if we where supposed to take him seriously or not

[@fredericksmith7942]

Back when I was in high school, my teacher used this book to illustrate how easy it is to fall for pseudo history and how you shouldn’t take a book with vague bibliography seriously.

[@PhatomFoxy]

Do an episode on Jovan Deretic (A pseudo-historian from my country,Serbia that claims that every single person alive is a descendant of ancient Serbs)

[@mjr_schneider]

It's like the Pan-Turanists who believe that every group is descended from the Turks or the Pan-Africanists who believe that every ancient civilisation was founded by Africans.

[@starventure]

Fettleibiger dummer Kleinpenis Emskirchner “Constantine as an ancestor...” Not something to be proud of.

[@starventure]

MJR Schneider “Das rite!”

[@arifakyuz7673]

What is next? Romanians claiming to be the Roman Empire?

[@arifakyuz7673]

@Francescino PuntoFnaf09Gamer Goddammit. Southeastern Europe really IS a sick place like what Fettlebiger said!

[@kingusernamelxixthemagnifi3488]

This is an interesting topic.I hope you make it into a series.

[@nomadvyt]

Lmao at first I was like "what's so strange about a book linking Minoa to Atlantis? That theory is pretty common." And then he clarified and I died inside.

[@skywindow6764]

Minoa? The island's name is Crete.

[@jamestang1227]

Hey I really like this new format and think it could be used to tackle some somewhat prevalent historical myths on the internet too like the "Clean Wehrmacht" and "Empty Land" myths.

[@Abdullah-bw7ez]

What is empty land?

[@MervandtheMagicTones]

I just found this book in a Little Free Library (look it up) and was getting drawn in by the introduction. Thank you for saving me many hours that otherwise would've been lost reading fantastical nonsense.

[@M1574R]

Looking forward to more of these

[@isaacsorrels4077]

0:30 Lechina Empire bout to make like a Tyranid and nomnom everything. Also that treasure fleet map by Menzies is about to give me an aneurysm in my twenties.

[@neutralfellow9736]

I just love how the western orientalists constantly hype up China any way they can. Like how some group heavily exaggerated the size of the treasure ships, in complete disagreement with what the Chinese historians themselves consider, and made a model of it to make fun of Columbus's ship, when in reality such ships would be utterly impossible to construct out of wood. Even to this day you can see the ridiculous model comparison floating around the internet from time to time.

[@CantusTropus]

Orientalist is a good word. I wonder if having their own cultures constantly denigrated has anything to do with that.

[@mitchellgeorge6031]

For some idiotic reason, every history professor at my college believes 1421 is fact. I got kicked out of a class for saying it was fake.

[@spiderlime]

i admit that i read the book, and what convinced me that it was a fictional version of history is the authors claim regarding an extinct animal, the american giant sloth mylodon: apparently zheng he, the chinese admiral, was able to trap such an animal for the forbidden city zoo, and that since a population of this animal apparently existed well into the days of civilization, the skeletons of it that charles darwin found in his journeys were those of animals recently killed rather than fossils.

[@Rynewulf]

As much as his being torn a new one by academics will help, he does have a point about being listened to by ordinary people. His fake findings will live on in pop culture, conspiracy theories and poor historians for much longer than the average academics contributions will be publicly known. His bad fake history is probably going to continue having much more influence on how most people really think about the subject, sadly.

[@shooterrick1]

Yes, which is why I don't believe people like him should be allowed to spread his bullshit. Knowledge is sacred. He should be punished for his crimes against the scientific method.

[@Rynewulf]

@@shooterrick1 I do agree, I think it's a bit silly that you can basically publish whatever you want and call it history.

[@samuelchurch9892]

The Chinese did arrive in America but the Vikings and Knights Templars killed them all.- (sarcasm)

[@hauntologicalwittgensteini2542]

Lies China is too stupid to do anything. All chinese technology comes from the Ancient Krygyztanian Galactic Empire !

[@thatdoppioguy1825]

@@hauntologicalwittgensteini2542 Obivously the Egyptian Alien Pseudo-God beings eliminated them before they discovered there existence

[@earendil261]

Oh man, I read this when I was a lot younger and I lapped it up, uncritically. Thanks for this, good work 👍

[@n.a.7883]

Thank you for covering this. I saw this at my local book store and didn't even look at it, I thought it was so preposterous.

[@xyldkefyi]

With regards to the ship in the bay area: The wood may be from the 1400's, the ship could still be younger, couldn't it.

[@thomasturner6980]

Gavin Menzies has left the chat

[@kelleren4840]

Great points overall. To be fair though, in my University history class they talked about the Portuguese maps Columbus used to help get to the Americas (showed us the pictures and everything). Columbus had a hard time getting funding because of the political implications of Spain using a sailor trained at a Portuguese school/using Portuguese maps to try and establish a Spanish presence in what was then seen as a key resource by the very powerful Portuguese. Also, Columbus was arguing that the land the portuguese had found was simply an extension of India, and that sailing past those islands would put them in the Indies. He was arguing about the identity of the landmass based on his poor calculations of the earth's circumference, not necessarily the existence itself, as he knew it from attending Prince Henry's School of Navigation in Portugal. So, in the end, Columbus was having a hard time getting funding because it was a "pick your battles" type thing for the other countries, but, yeah. As of my university class at least, Columbus 100% used known routes (though they were trade secrets and closely guarded) and maps from the Portuguese to "proclaim" himself discoverer and establish a colonial presence in the Americas. Happy to send sources @EmperorTigerstar :)

[@AaronOfMpls]

I read this book years ago (from a library), and kinda enjoyed it at the time. But having learned of historians' opinions of it since -- and /not/ having seen its revelations in /other/ historical works since -- ...well, let's just say it hasn't stuck with me. Well done, EmprerorTigerstar! Looking forward to more Bad History. :D

[@jadenk1409]

There's a korean ultra nationalists' theory that there was an empire stretched from ural(sometimes even germany) to far eastern asia (sometimes even entire america) that named huan, and it's koreans' ancestors lol. And it's quite popular between low-class mid aged(about 40~50s) ppl XD. I guess sudo history is quite good for nationalistic countries which has not that much "glorious history".

[@blakeluccason9971]

I have only seen that in memes? legit?

[@jadenk1409]

@@blakeluccason9971 yep. They claim that us&british government and jews (somehow) finally ultimate conspiracy theory king, illuminati try to cover up the "great american korean empire's legacys" they claim the fact that somehow korea is the mother civilization of every civilizations on the earth XD. Also i heard there's some sudo history in finland too, that finno-uralic empire existed and conquered western russia the kievan rus's territory. I guess countries with history of being semi colony or bad record are weak to "patriotic" sudo history.

[@blakeluccason9971]

@@jadenk1409 meh I understand that ... I seen the finn thing too ... I'm descended from anglos and Dutch who came before america was ever a nation so I never needed those myths

[@shooterrick1]

@@jadenk1409 I gotta say, as a Finn, I've never heard of anything like that. I know people who want to see such an empire created, and during WW2 a "greater finland" was something quite a few people advocated for. But never have I heard anyone believe that anything like that actually existed.

[@DrmChsr0]

The Finno-Korean Hyperwar is a meme.

[@noriyakigumble3011]

Bruh, my history teacher last year claimed that China might have landed in America before Colombus, Now I know why

[@CokeDrkrNotSnrtr]

I read this book around 2007 or so. His big sticking points were the chickens and the Chinese DNA found in populations, the latter of which can be easily explained by the many thousands of Chinese imported in the 1800s to mine guano among other things. It was an intriguing theory, although incredibly stupid, but at the end of his book the same "points" were repeated ad naseum to fill up length I guess.

[@1800-REGICIDE]

There was an interesting History Channel documentary about this topic from about 10-15 years ago and Menzies appears in it. Its a good documentary, it starts open to the idea, then basically debunks everything Menzies says. The best bit is these American guys up on the Oregon coast who found some wood and claimed it was from a Chinese treasure fleet. It was just a wood chip about the size of a thumb, but they were convinced it was from a ship. Really illustrated the "start with a belief and work backwards to try to find evidence to make it true" thing.

[@ericnowak9497]

History Channel actually debunking wild pseudo historic claims? So sad how the channel has fallen in the past decade.

[@Gallalad1]

Let's have more of this! Bad history is funny as hell

[@JanKowalski-kw5iy]

0:29 Oh my God, not that shit again. I live in Poland and i've got PTSD from this.

[@aleksandersokal5279]

Those people over-exaggerate the Polish/Lechitic tribes which were located from Oder river, most centred next to vistula up until around todays Lwów that were disunited but had the same language and later formed the Christian state of Poland to some unrealistic/crazy idea that those tribe managed not only to easily unite but also to Conquer the entire non-Roman Europe. P.S.: They also destroy the word Lechia which actually is the second meaning of Poland and is used by many nations like Turkey (Lechistan), Iran (Lechistan), Hungary (Lengyelország) and Lithuania (Lenkija).

[@jliller]

Suggestion for a future Bad History episode: "Lost Triumph: Lee's Real Plan at Gettysburg--and Why It Failed" by Tom Carhart. It's an interesting theory but asserts far more than it has the evidence to prove. You can find much worse stuff out there about the Civil War, especially involving Black Confederates and/or arguing the Confederacy was right, but most of that is self-published. Carhart got published by Putnam and got James McPherson, Rick Atkinson, and John Keegan to give him praise in print.

[@takshashila2995]

The Lost Empire of Atlantis is also another of his fantasy books.

[@jeffreygao3956]

I know Ming China was mighty but not that powerful.

[@user-J.M.A.I]

Nice video! But could you please give us also some of your sources? That would be amazing thank you :)

[@Gloriaimperial1]

There is a Liechestein brigadier, who has another hypothesis: Gavin Menzies discovered the moon in 1969

[@frostyguy1989]

2:49 The Chinese treasure fleets explore literally everywhere except mainland Europe. But if these were treasure fleets, why wouldn't you visit Renaissance Europe? Why would you explore uncharted regions of the globe with a treasure fleet? Isn't that a huge, risky gamble? Moreover, why try exploring regions like the poles and Australia when at the time they had no economic value?

[@normalperson2462]

Exactly and the fleet was already prestigious for the time showing the wealth of the ming dynasty to a lot of different areas

[@erictaylor5462]

10:00 I remember when this "Chinese ship in California" thing came out. You forgot one other possibility. Considering the ship was found in California, this would have meant that who ever sailed it to California ended up staying, because the was found in California. If the crew ended up stranded in California, the crew would never have made it home, so news of the discovery never got back to China. In China the ship would have been listed as "missing, presumed lost" and would have joined the long list of other ships that never came home. There are indications of some Asian ancestry in west coast Native Americans. It is possible that Chinese ships could have crossed and been stranded in the Americas, but these would have been rare and one way trips. The Pacific is much *MUCH* harder to cross that the Atlantic. For one it is much wider meaning it will take longer to cross, meaning larger supply larders for the crew. Also the storms can be much more intense meaning they are more likely to destroy a ship. So while it is likely the Americas were reached by Asians it is unlikely that those Asian explorers could have made it home after discovering the new land. After all, remember you need a crew. While these sailors might have family back home, they have just survived a terrible ordeal and likely only just survived it, feeling lucky to have found any land. I think anyone would be willing to step back into the breach. Especially if they had friendly natives, even if the natives looked a bit weird. I'm assuming unfriendly natives would have made a debate on returning moot. You can't have any debaters if you are dead.

[@KatherineFtw]

> There are indications of some Asian ancestry in west coast Native Americans. It is possible that Chinese ships could have crossed and been stranded in the Americas, but these would have been rare and one way trips. The Pacific is much MUCH harder to cross that the Atlantic. For one it is much wider meaning it will take longer to cross, meaning larger supply larders for the crew. Also the storms can be much more intense meaning they are more likely to destroy a ship. This is refuted, because it's actually another entirely separate theory. Basically, an alternate theory on the settlement of the Americas. The concept states that prior to the melting of the ice caps, East-Asian peoples settled the Americas via boat. The main problem with this theory is all evidence for it is at the bottom of the California Bay. And, any attempt to research it risks damaging the sites. Though, it is the most probable alternative to the Land Bridge Theory. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Settlement_of_the_Americas#Pacific_coastal_route

[@kevinbaik5425]

I am seeing this video because a classmate asked the teacher if asian civilizations went to the American continent at the time of their colonization. So she answered that it was it is unthinkable that the Chinese could have done this, but in a very rude way. Now he wants to get revenge with the statements of 1421 by gavin menzies

[@MDzaki-uk2ll]

Being rude in a conversation/debate can be very annoying tbh, even if the teacher is right

[@ShwetankYa]

They could have done it, still possible there were contacts between Asia and s. America

[@EBUNNY2012]

LOL. Gavin Menzies is more like an "Ancient Aliens" and "Jesus was Married" author of "history" than, well, an actual historian. I hear George Lucas calling.

[@DrTssha]

I managed to get halfway through this book before I brought it up with a bunch of people I was doing a comedy show with, me being unsure of how much I should actually trust it. One of my friends looked up the author, and as soon as he mentioned the Atlantis book I'd gotten the impression this wasn't a book worth trusting. It was...entertaining. I'd gotten it as a gift, perhaps because the giver thought it was intriguing, perhaps because I share a name with the guy, but I've basically dismissed it at this point. Then I saw this video and clicked immediately, hoping to put this book to rest in my mind once and for all. ...which it has. Thanks for the video!

[@JeevesAnthrozaurUS]

If the Chinese actually did what Menzies says, You'd think they'd mention it somewhere in Míng Shǐ(History of Ming) Instead, the only one asserting they did is some British dude

[@christianweibrecht6555]

ETS, make a video about a historical narrative spread by Stefan Molyneux, for easy views and publicity

[@jaojao1768]

Good idea

[@jaojao1768]

This is a very good idea for a series

[@Martinos1991]

A quick note on the dating of wood! Never take a date gathered from it at face value. I am an archaeology student and when I was taught dating techniques that's the first thing they tell you. Because ask yourselves this, what are you dating? The age of the wooden structure, or that of the tree? It's the latter, you are dating the tree. And trees can be a lot older than the structures made from them. For example, a roman era settlement in the Netherlands was dated to thousands of years bc when researchers examined wooden artifacts from the site. Now, no one went "O my god, that means Roman civilization stretches back much further than ever thought before!" and for one simple reason, everyone in the business knows that dating wood is a gamble. As it turns out, the wood was traced back to that of a flooded forest. Trees covered by landslides or tsunami type things and excavated for use by these ancient people. So in all likelihood, that ship mentioned around the nine minute mark is far younger than the dating suggests.

[@matimatimati1992]

0:30 You should make episode about Lechia Empire.

[@ja-vishaara]

I just got a recommendation for a video about this same thing, which used 1421 as a source. Seemingly the only source. My immediate instinct was to find this video

[@djaevlenselv]

Absolutely love pseudohistory. Will definitely be coming back if you plan to do more in this vein. Will you be touching on Anatoly Fomenko and his "New Chronology"? That one's a doozy.

[@sciblastofficial9833]

When I was a kid I thought the HRE was a state in the Roman Empire Turns out I was -wrong- *right* (This comment was corrected by Pope Leo III and Charlemagne)

[@nerdymidgetkid]

'...claiming that Atlantis was a metaphor for the Minoan civilisation...' Oh, finally, something I can get behind! ''which, apparently, had an empire stretching from America to India.' Oh.

[@DylanDude]

How could he possibly think such an empire would be feasible at the time?

[@baneofbanes]

DylanDude And you’d think that it would leave more evidence than a myth. I mean even today people can shut up about the Romans.

[@georgebad4229]

This is an amazing series

[@vincent22046]

My wife bought this book for me from a library sale. I had my doubts. Thanks for clarifying the doubt. You saved me a lot of time and frustration.

[@Smokin_Phat_Dabs]

How to spot a smooth brain...make a idiotic post just like vincent22046 and watch the sparks fly.

[@GreenCanvasInteriorscape]

​@@Smokin_Phat_Dabsthe THC coats your smooth brain, what kind of a loser chooses his drug use as an user name? You signed yourself up for a lifetime of not being taken seriously.

[@Smokin_Phat_Dabs]

​@@GreenCanvasInteriorscape Said the idiot who fell for my trap...the KZbin title you see before you is designed to trigger small-minded idiots like yourself. Glad to see it still working, on top of all that. You really should take the time and see how many countries has fully legalized cannabis.

[@Undead_E]

This man litery wrote chinese fanfiction and became a honorary professor

[@theduchyofmilanball3157]

Im suprised the PRC itself didn't award this guy for his lies :P