Bad Writing | The Women Of Arrow & The Flash

I love the ladies on Arrow and the Flash, but the writing for them is so frustratingly bad that I want to punch a kitten.

[@TishTinyTroll]

Thank god you mentioned the Joe disregarding Iris' agency. Everyone in the Westallen fandom was cheering when he had that little speech about how he can't let Iris decide for herself whether she wants to marry Eddie or not because she'll regret it or whatever...but it was sooo patronizing of him. Even if he prefers Barry over Eddie, that is not his choice to make. Seriously all of the lying and the manipulation regarding Iris, the way Barry sometimes acts entitled towards her borderline makes me not want to ship it sometimes. I hope she at least is realistically pissed off when she finds out.

[@XxBarbyChanxX]

I hate what Arrow does to Laurel, we know that she loves Thea like a sister and has known her since forever, yet they can't include her in the hospital scene? We don't get to see how she feels? And they deleted the goodbye scene between Oliver and Laurel, which would have lasted 30 secs, because 'it didn't fit' I'm just ??? Just because they aren't in a romantic relationship anymore, doesn't mean that they are strangers now. And don't get me started on how this season has basically been about everyone yelling "Laurel you can't do this!!!" "You're not a hero!!" Why are they treating her like this?? Felicity's character is frustraiting, because while she is cute and all, it doesn't matter, she's only there to prop Oliver and I hate how she holds him into this pedestal like he's some innocent puppy. I don't know who the hell she is outside Oliver, she's just there to do some hacking and express her undying love for him... so ?? Helena is described as 'Oliver's psycho ex-girfriend' and I have no hope to see the Helena/Laurel relationship like in the comics because these writers only use comic characters to prop O/F: Slade, Ra's al Ghul and now Katana on the next episode... I don't understand why Malcom isn't dead yet. He killed Tommy, used Thea to kill Sara, yet Oliver gives him a free pass card and wants Thea to interact with him. Just no.

[@karleecraziness9216]

Thank you like people want to jump down Laurel's throat for wanting to protect Nyssa because Nyssa is a good person battling her own demons and yet she wants Malcom dead he is the one to be held for Tommy's death which Laurel watched him die and even held him he drugged Thea and made her kill Sara which once again Laurel has to watch the death of another person and wants him dead even tried to kill him. Instead of trying to comfort to Laurel when she was having a melt down Oliver basically said "It's Malcom Meryln what did you think was going to happen yet people and by people I mean Oliver are mad at her because she wants the man dead who killed her father yet Oliver is always defending/protecting him. Are you serious?

[@Godzillarex]

Really great points! You're right, they had no idea what to do with Laurel. And kudos to you for not relying on a thousand jump cuts to tell your opinion like others do, very well articulated.

[@Princess_Weekes]

+Godzillarex Thank you!

[@iamsuperbatman1993]

Excellent video, this is one of the many reasons why I don't watch Arrow any more.

[@Princess_Weekes]

iamsuperbatman1993 I only watch it now because the worlds of Arrow and Flash are sooooo interconnected you almost have to watch both to get everything and it's annoying because even Buffy/Angel didn't do that. Or The Originals/VD

[@iamsuperbatman1993]

I know how you feel, it is so annoying.

[@knifeofdunwall]

+MelinaPendulum yep that annoys me. I don't want to watch Arrow anymore and only enjoy Flash but I feel like iIhave to so I can keep on top of Flash better. btw I enjoy your videos.

[@mtlblues4710]

Iris is the best actress in the Flash Not talking about the character just the acting skills

[@vibingwithchill676]

Yeah that's true. But Caitlin's actress is great at being evil.

[@bethanychatman9531]

I think that's true! Always thought so.

[@MagicalPuddinPops]

Honestly, it doesn't matter what gender is being written for, this shows writing is awful. It blows my mind how some people will blindly defend this show because it's a DC property. It sucks soooo hard

[@astriddececco3005]

All the women on these shows are just used to either push plot points or be romantic fonder for the male protagonist for the show.

[@TeamForwood]

+Astrid Dececco basically since they haven't used Laurel well as if she's barely there due to the fact she's not on top or under a guy while Felicity has been given more screen time because she's either been with Ray or Oliver these days.

[@astriddececco3005]

+TeamForwood It's funny that Supergirl has been getting a lot of hate mostly from male viewers because of its "feminist views" but it is done the same thing that Arrow and Flash has done but the only differences is that she is a female character. As a society we're so used to seeing the hero's journey being male, that we forget that women can have the same journey too.

[@asaka616]

Olicity ruined this series in my opinion.

[@TeamForwood]

Thank you!I never realized it until I started watching Lauriver scenes again.It made me wonder why the fanbase made me ship Olicity during season 3.Felicity was better off with Ray

[@SchulzEricT]

@@TeamForwood I loved Felicity, I thought she was great. I thought she was far too good for Oliver, and that she deserved much better than a withdrawn, uncommunicative, selfish partner like Oliver. Their romantic relationship was bad, and I didn't like that the show foisted it upon us. (Although the show isn't very good overall because CW. I liked the first season or two, but I went back to rewatch it and couldn't because it was way too much CW. I wish they'd get good writers, or at least have an editor go over dialogue and take out the cringiest parts.)

[@TeamForwood]

@@SchulzEricT she was better with Ray

[@amandak.5967]

@@SchulzEricT Yes agreed! I used to ship it but I can't no more. During the whole crossover with the evil reality bending book or whatever.... there's this conversation Felicity has about how hurt she is that Oliver kept the existence of his son a secret from her. The other person in the conversation straight up says that trust isn't the most important thing in a relationship. What?!! It's def one of the top three most important things in a relationship.

[@killfrow]

Iris has gotten a lot better and lets be honest felicity is ruining arrow. At least her relationship with Oliver is ruining the show.

[@NEHOMAS2]

I am very baffled to learn that Kaitlin has a huge fanbase. I have no clue where that would come from... Please, please don't hate me but Iris frustrates the *SHIT* out of me on the show. She just come across as insanely selfish and immature to in almost every episode. But I don't blame the actress in any way. I just can't care for the character at all. And yes, this is coming from someone who doesn't/hasn't read the comics

[@Princess_Weekes]

NEHOMAS2 I personally think the writing does her characters no favors and the love triangle also puts her in this very awkward position, especially since everyone else is making decisions for her. I enjoy Iris, because I see that a lot of the errors with her character come from terrible writing and I am hoping that now that she knows about Barry things will get better (crossing fingers). Caitlin has fans because she's white. Period. lol

[@richiemackintyre5094]

MelinaPendulum Iris is the best written character in both series. She is a strong independent minority who is not up the main characters ass. He's actually up hers. Falicity is actually a dumb boy crazy bitch and I hate that she takes away from black canary's story. I also hate how she was a strong independent genius before she met Oliver. Now she's just a clown. #teamLuarel

[@kathrynbecker3404]

Actually, given the demographic of the fan base for shows like the Flash (mostly male) I wonder if it isn't matter of hot, attractive woman being the docile doe men are raised from birth to think are superior?

[@TeamForwood]

Stop it with the race card.I liked Caitlin from the start not because she was white,but because she spunky type of personality.People hate on SnowBarry because there's part of the fandom who ships them for the wrong reason.You're probably too much into WA to forget that Barry was the one who made Caitlin smile again since she stopped after Ronnie "died".Plus people also like Caitlin because they like her character's future persona Killer Frost which is another reason they like SnowStorm due to them being Fire & Ice

[@richiemackintyre5094]

TeamForwood Race card... what is rhat exactly? It's a weird concept that a minority can play the race card. When they are in fact a minority in this country. Caitlin is favored because little white girls want to put themselves in her shoes Period. That's a huge race card. That's why she says she's favored because she's white. Both girls are equally well written considering Danielle can't act and still has fans.

[@Sophiedesjardins]

Although this is years late: this is an awesome video! I finished watching arrow part way through season 4 (2015/2016). What a joke of a villain.

[@Magnus1964]

I remember when Felicity was introduced, and she was so smart and so appealing. In later seasons, she was a stone cold drag - zero empathy, self-centered (particularly over the existence of William). I never thought Laurel was fully fleshed out, and don’t understand why they handled her the way they did. Iris was a fifth wheel in the Flash ensemble, but she’s starting to grow on me. I don’t know how she goes from cub reporter to crusading publisher, editor, and star reporter (seriously, who’s running the biz, and where’s the $$$ coming from?), but she is definitely dynamic as opposed to the static character she was previously.

[@hadrianhexe9603]

Wait how was she self centered? It's understandable to be pissed about being lied to about the fact your fiance/husband has a kid

[@Magnus1964]

HadrianMoon Because Ollie made a promise to keep the kid a secret to the mother, and whether Felicity liked it or not, she didn’t have a veto over another woman’s life or anything Ollie did prior to his relationship with Felicity. She made the situation impossible for herself, and that’s due to really bad writing. She’s not a real person. The writers decided that was who she was.

[@XxBarbyChanxX]

I wish we could get to see Iris's POV on The Flash, she's supposed to be the lead female character, now that she knows the secret I expect to see her getting more screentime, and while I enjoy WestAllen, I want to see Iris on her own. Does she have any friends besides Barry?? What about her mom?? What does Iris like to do in her free time?? They shouldn't waste Candice Patton like this

[@CajunKhan]

I would have liked to see Linda Park become Wally's love-interest. Who knows if Wally will ever become an important character in this show? And they've already rolled a lot of Wally's characterization into Barry. He's more like Warry already. So why not pair him with Linda Park? I also have always thought Malese Jow was very charming and I want to see her in a main role. She keeps getting minor recurrings and it's a bummer.

[@mse90]

Binge watching Arrow and The Flash (I don't know why I did it, I probably hate myself) has been one frustrating journey and this video perfectly explains the main reasons for it, so thank you for it. And this was made before that one last horrible Arrow storyline with Nyssa, like that was really the low point to me. Enjoying The Flash is easier, because as you said yourself, it IS the superior show, but I probably got more attached to the female characters on Arrow, and that show is just hurting my soul every single possible way at this point. I'm trying to like Caitlin, but I was really surprised that she was the focus of all the fandom attention I was able to see before I started watching the show instead of Iris (I probably shouldn't have been surprised tho knowing how fandoms work). And thank you for putting into words what's my issue with Felicity is: she really is painfully underdeveloped, and is mostly used as fan catering. She's another character that I like but I can't get passionate about because I just don't feel anything. Laurel's and Iris' treatment by their shows is just plain terrible, but at least Iris eventually got her due to say some of her piece, not to mention that Barry is a lot more reasonable lead overall. The way the narrative treats Laurel, making her to be the one that is wrong or the incompetent one even if it (usually) doesn't actually make any sense is just increasingly infuriating. The show does this dance where Diggle or Felicity are the only ones who are allowed to question Oliver, and even then it's done by a choreography that seems forced and all played out. But if a character like Laurel or Helena or Nyssa, or really, any other female character comes in to challenge his stance, they are being dismissed by the narrative entirely. And he's the worst example of the brooding self-righteous hypocrite white male antihero that I'm just done with at this point, and I know that this show was always called Arrow, but sometimes in my dreams he actually dies in the midseason finale and the show gets renamed to Canary. And Thea... I just basically agree on everything you said, because Thea's arc really is probably one of the best ones the show's female characters had... except where they keep taking away her agency. She's drugged to kill her friend, and then she's told by her brother that she would feel guilty about giving up her father for that crime to a justice system that is - unlike Oliver - is actually WILLING to deal with him while also securing her and Oliver's safety from the League, and then on top of everything, she was forced to live in the same house as Merlyn after all of that???? These shows' treatment and writing of their female characters is terrible, period, but the amount of crap Arrow pulled in its third season is just unparalleled. Did Sara's death actually make any sense by the end? Because Merlyn's plan is just so contrived, and the effects eventually all but fade into nothing. (For instance even the show recognizes that no, Sara didn't have to die for Laurel to become the Canary.) And I can't believe that in 2015 a queer woc can be given that storyline that Nyssa was at the end of S3, and that it can be treated with so little respect. Does it even make sense that her father would turn into such a homophobic misogynistic asshole after years of grooming her daughter to follow him as Ra's al Ghul, and for all intents and purposes, respecting her and her sexuality? I know that he's supposed to be a bit crazy thanks to the Pit, but he's never actually shown as such on the show, he's just a guy with twisted principles who gets the respectful death from Oliver at the end. There is no other way to say this: that whole plot and how it related to Nyssa was gross. I kinda just went on on you, and I'm sorry. I could probably go on for days, but I'm going to stop getting myself worked up over this. Anyway, thank you for the video and putting these things into words, it's always good to see that I'm not the crazy one for being angered by these writing choices.

[@karleecraziness9216]

OH MY GOSH YES! THANK YOU

[@9xprincess]

Laurel's sister should had been the main love interest. Because like you said he is emotionally unstable so him being with someone else who is equally troubled makes more sense and would be a better dynamic.

[@luBfink]

Love your Sesshomaru poster.

[@inotaishu1]

This sounds very familiar. Teen Wolf had similar problems. And be lucky you never read Cassandra Clare's books that played after City of Bones and Clockwork Angel.

[@richiemackintyre5094]

Nyssa is no a good character. I hate her revenge storyline. I also hate the fact she is weak next to characters like oliver. She is written very poorly. Laurel to me is the best written character in arrow. She is very strong level headed and challenges olivers morals as a person. Instead of babying him like all the other characters do.

[@J1J7W]

I don't actually watch these shows, but I find the topic of female characters interesting nonetheless. Unfortunately too many shows have 1 dimensional women in. Anyway, interesting video, keep up the good work

[@pskarts20]

Thank you for this video I don't watch arrow but flash is bad on relationships through and through Barry is such a back stabing creep he deserves not to be with Iris and when Iris sat on her boyfriend friends lap right after shutting Barry down of a say 20 year crush just cold I don't see any chemistry between then both those show seem to cast a pretty face and luck out if they can act after the fact and like you said do not know how to write good female leads I noticed no Barbra from gotham I figure that's it's own video holy shit

[@Princess_Weekes]

Panagiotis Skartsilas I just don't get why they did the love triangle because it never does anyone favors in the long run.

[@errorsinconduct]

MelinaPendulum The reason Cisco can remember the other timeline is because he's gonna be the superhero Vibe, who can keep track of those. Iris doesn't have that ability.

[@Princess_Weekes]

That is possible, but it has not been established by canon yet. So I'm not personally accepting that myself.

[@errorsinconduct]

It's comic book canon.

[@Princess_Weekes]

I'm talking about the television show canon, not the comics.

[@Soma11887]

Loved the video. It highlights some of the problems I have with both shows, but I'm surprised you didn't touch upon Amanda Waller.

[@Princess_Weekes]

Soma11887 Oh yeah! Not going to lie, I fastfoward through the flashbacks. I have zero interest. I don't enjoy skinny Amanda Waller...

[@TheRealityleak]

This is a great video and incredibly insightful analysis. Laurel has been badly written for the entire series. Felicity has been wasted through season 3. Hopefully s4 will be better.

[@spiritofslumber]

Yeah I feel like this season had the most illogical character reactions and decisions in Arrow. Thea is my fav female character though.

[@littlered6340]

I need an update on this with all the new shows because I do not think it has gotten better. 😂 🤣

[@Passions5555]

thanks for this video. And I like that that you hit things that I have thought about. I have brought stuff like this up before in some of the fan communities and I have been pretty called a feminist and a hater or not understanding the plot. Badly written female characters has always ruined a good series for me. I am experiencing similar feelings in the series called berserk with the female character named Casca, the poster girl for being "stuffed in the fridge". Have you ever read the series Berserk?

[@TheMantaBluRay]

Although not a great show in & of itself, "Agents of SHIELD" has handled female characters better than either "Flash" or "Arrow" (especially this season). The friction between them & male characters aren't melodramatic, they THINK & take charge of their own paths, and there is more of a variety of personalities & skillsets for the female characters. I won't delve into Peggy Carter or Karen Page (from Daredevil) because they are much better than the majority of the characters of the CW DC shows (even the male ones).

[@Princess_Weekes]

***** Yeah, Agents of SHIELD is horrible, but Melinda May alone is fantastic. Peggy Carter and the women of Daredevil are amazing as well!

[@CM-ik8sx]

Everything you said about Nyssa and Oliver. Oliver is the most hypocritical ass ever. I'd also add that the frustrating fact of how the writers have done Nyssa's fighting and the disgusting wedding.

[@nathanieldaiken1064]

My criticism of Arrow is that they are not true to his character in the comics; they are trying to "Batman" -ify the character of "The Arrow". Their hands are tied because of "Gotham". They cannot introduce a real "Batman" to Arrow, even though they are supposed to be contemporaries. Oliver Queen has a well established character which is being trashed right now.

[@200damary]

Nice Storm number #1.

[@Princess_Weekes]

200damary Thank you! It's a first printing too Woot!

[@johny2586]

aye wassup michonne from walkin dead

[@dragonwatter]

sorry the writing in general for the cw DC shows is crap. how man times did olliver have to learn he can't keep secrets from his team in how many concurrent seasons. the show turned oliver queen in to batman.

[@BenFan-hx6ih]

I hope the B-Arrowverse will fix this problem

[@Legba85]

Melina, what's your thoughts on the new Supergirl trailer?

[@kendallrivers1119]

Idk if you've ever heard of the tv show Stitchers. But I personally think they do a very good job with the women (knock on wood) , especially having women in tech and not stereotype them and Salli Richardson Whitfield from Eureka (a black woman, mind you) being the director of the program. Also I ADORE how everyone is an equal, the women are just as intelligent and skilled as the men and vice versa. You should check it out if not seen it all ready.

[@elzbietahapsburska3711]

I don't watch Arrow; I need to get caught up on the Flash (love it). I agree that the writing of women on the Flash is problematic, especially for Iris. I think they didn't give Iris very much personality, and I think the fact that she does not notice Barry Allen's love for her and then turns right around and dates the guy who the show labels as the hot one (How did they decide that? I mean, common, they're ALL the hot one - Barry and Detective Pretty Boy and Cisco and Iris and Caitlin are all gorgeous!). She also isn't portrayed as being overly serious about her writing, just about her career and the money she could make. I'm not overly fond of her to be honest, but I do think its the bad writing (perhaps bad acting too? not sure), not necessarily the character. I think they wanted to do something else with Iris - they wanted to make her a "cool" girl who would hang out with the nerd but wouldn't fall for the nerd but also an independent woman with a head on her shoulders. However, the result was that she comes out as kinda stuck-up (her patronizing attitude towards Barry, which I know is supposed to appear sisterly, but it comes out patronizing - this could be both the acting and the writing's fault), a bit of an airhead (her attitude towards her dissertation, the fact that she never explains WHY she's obsessed about writing about the Flash - definitely bad writing), and pretty shallow (the Detective is a great guy, but the way the relationship is portrayed is that she falls for his looks, not his courage or his attitude or any of the other traits he happens to share with less muscly and more awkward and youthful Barry) Personally, I love Felicity. I love every scene she is in. She's hilarious and a tonne of fun. A lot of people say that the watch Arrow for Felicity. She and Diggle are really cool characters, although Oliver drives me up the wall because of the focus being on revenge. He's not fighting for the right reasons and he's not a hero in any way, which is why I decided not to watch the show. He kinda seems like just a street punk to me. I think the problem with him is that they were trying to write Batman, but they wanted to make a "darker" Batman, and the only way to do that is to make a killer and a jerk of a character, which is more anti-villain than hero. Although, to be honest, I think he suffers from the worst writing of the show: in the comics, Oliver was a lighter character than Batman. Batman is the one who can't get over the death of his family and is stuck living in what is apparently the world's most crime-ridden city . . . Oliver Queen is a modern day Robin Hood in all that that entails . . .

[@RambleMaven]

I just feel Laurel isn't likable. A lot of things that happen with Laurel are unrealistic. Tbh Laurel would have been dead in real life. I don't like how stubborn she is it's like she'll be facing a situation where she literally can't do any good if she tags along but she forces her way in and ends up coming along anyway and not helping anyone. I really don't like that about her. I think one smart move she made was training with Wildcat though! It's like if she wanted to help someone with something she needed to do that in the first place instead of endangering others by getting involved in situations where you do more harm than good. Now Laurel has gotten better as a character but that was the main reason I didn't like her and why I don't understand why people stick up for her.

[@karleecraziness9216]

Yet how is she able to fight off two guys and smashes one of their head through glass. Like wow god!

[@Legba85]

What did that kitten do to you that you have to hit it? LOL.

[@luBfink]

Thanks God Iris has got a better plot now, but the character still feels underused. Why can't we see her on her own not related to Barry at all?

[@nathanieldaiken1064]

I had to leave Arrow, and The Flash. Main reason: They are trying to fit the show to the network, i.e. the CW. So far, Supergirl is the only one that is a "good" fit. If Kara Zor-El grows, she may no longer be contained by the constraints of the network.

[@didac3859]

If you like the looks but you dislike the writing, then what you like isn't the characters, it's the actresses.

[@serge263]

You need to get a better microphone. I can hardly hear you at max volume on both YT and my computer.

[@Princess_Weekes]

Aduro Tri I just checked and I can hear in fine on my computer without it being on max

[@serge263]

MelinaPendulum Weird. Might be me.

[@ofentseleballo282]

I have always hated Felicity

[@RambleMaven]

Laurel is stupid and annoying. They needed to make laurel a smarter character if they wanted to make her a likable one.

[@gevoian]

+andreskizzo yeah felicity is probably the biggest reason i stopped watching, her and oliver and ray, too much forced love triangles and drama, much cringe, id rather watch a great superhero show, daredevil over again.

[@karleecraziness9216]

Laurel is not stupid or annoying she has been put through the ringer but she does act irrational at times because she has been through so much and is selfless in a lot of ways!

[@Kaefer1973]

Ever since I started watching " MelinaPendulum" videos, youtube is trying to sell me hygiene products for my period, talk about spot on profiling by advanced google ais.

[@richiemackintyre5094]

I hate falicity now

[@aixaaa_1117]

For the flash,Iris even in the comic books she was always just a love interest and in the show I think the actress who protrays her is just really untalented and unlikeable

[@mightymouse5930]

I'm sorry, but only a feminist would consider the bad writing and stereotypes of only the female characters in the Arroverse. Men in both Arrow and Flash are written as either SUPER stereotypical beefcakes or outright written to sound like dysfunctional females. 100% of the "faceless guards" that get killed right and left or beat to a pulp; all men. I'm not saying I disagree with your points, I'm merely pointing out the fact that useless feminists are the exact people who critique acting in a show or shows and only consider the female characters. You pretend as though they haven't made the men behave COMPLETELY adverse to that of actual men. This show is FOR girls. Why do you think 80% of the entire series is friggin love story and "dating". You sound like someone who choose comics as a hobby specifically because it's a male dominated area of interest for no other reason than to "fix" it with feminism. Long story short: I would really like to hear you critique of this show's characters WITHOUT all the biased feminist agenda. "Help the ladies, help yourself." Um, no, help yourself; help yourself. Help everyone; help everyone. God damn it can we put feminists in the same queue as white supremacists where they belong please.

[@itakemytime1156]

Only a misogynist will think that just because women have a problem with the way that women are being written they are labeled as feminist. The arrowverse is full of misogynistic and racist assholes. The men in arrowverse is delusional and disgusting.

[@VulpineNinja]

she did acknowledge that Oliver is a jerk. but the main topic now is how female characters are written.

[@msgirly6827]

Oh stfu

[@benbarry2489]

i only agreed about Barry Allen and Caitlyn Snow together... like "BARRYN" i guesss i love if they're together