SFV Primer: Negative Edge and Empty Cancels

[@MrSonicDoctor]

I knew it! Just started playing SFV and the negative edge in this game feels so intense. For charge characters in SF4 negative edge made sense to me, but in SF5 its so much more universal with all the characters.

[@RoosterCogburnPhD]

A button press is a button press, you can't say it's only half T. J """"""""""""""""""""Henry"""""""""""""""""""""" Yoshi

[@larsu-gx579]

That single frame of TJ "Henry" Yoshi made me laugh like a lot

[@Ejtan]

Bafael, you're a hero for making this kind of videos for everyone. You are, and will continue to be, a massive help to anyone trying to get into the series, for sure. :-) ...and thanks for uploading! ;-)

[@olpdragon]

Damn, this is a lot more to learn and practice, and I know it isn't necessary but it seems super useful in cases. This is awesome, thanks!

[@GatsuRage]

this thing is since alpha3 (as far as I can remember) tho is very well explained, and I'm sure there are tons of people who still doesn't know or new to fighting games.

[@austinreed7343]

GutsRage It was also in Super Turbo.

[@TheRegalRolston]

I've been playing for quite a while, but that fireball tip was godly!

[@chrisXDfull]

i don't quite get it, is he plinking the fireball then as he releases it , he imediately presses Heavy punch/heavy kick?

[@Cunt143]

PorraCaralho no plink bro. Qcf+press and hold punch, then when you wanna do the 2nd fireball qcf+release punch. Because the game only allows you to throw a fireball if you don't have a fireball on-screen this means you won't accidentally use a laggy normal if by chance your old fireball is still on-screen

[@Harlec]

Negative edge can be a pain in the ass, specially if your buttons are not very good or a bit sticky. Sometimes the borders are not clean and make the button to stay down only a little, but just enough for the game as counting it as negative edge.

[@rashid_hafez1]

Thanks for confirming about release check in this game

[@GrayVos]

Hey Bafael i apreciate the video, seems its just me. Im gonna practice this.

[@BACCHUS777]

There was a video recently on Vegas v reversal allowing punishing of normally safe moves, would love to see more on this in depth at some point!

[@Bafael]

+PNS SHOGUN (Dolph Lundgren69) I'll touch on that in my v-reversal video

[@RagingPanic]

DUDE THAT FIREBALL THING IS THE DOPEST SHIT EVER THANK YOU.

[@beifa93]

That Oro sneese at the beggining Cheeky Baf cheeky.

[@bumpyface228]

I wish I could turn negative edge off!

[@jayshelton86]

I would love to see a video on proper charge techniques or charge partitioning if it in possible in the game.

[@Bafael]

I might do a video on charging. But just so you know, charge partitioning doesn't exist

[@Otgmar]

Happens with Laura when holding down v-skill to dash and you release late and get v-skill axe kick by accident. QPU primer when?

[@D00Dable]

Could you make a video on wake up options? Throws in particular. Normal and command throws. How and when to throw someone as they get up and how to defend from it. I'm getting thrown right after knockdown a lot and I'm not sure what to do about it.

[@Bafael]

+D00dable right on, I think I'll do this

[@D00Dable]

+Bafael Thanks. I'm getting destroyed by throws.

[@cloudsora]

god damn man seeing you execute some of these so consistently is just ridiculous to me. One day I'll get there... but it sure as hell isn't today.

[@Bafael]

well this is a recording so I can edit out failures but this sort of stuff I execute super consistently anyway because it's not very hard to do.

[@robinwu1493]

When i do "cr.mk xx fireball " with Ryu sometimes DP comes out instead of a fireball. Is that the same problem? What can i do about it?

[@Bafael]

+Robin Wu That's not the same problem. Here your problem is the inherent overlap of shoryuken and fireball motions, which all shoto players become very aware of. The truth is that you simply cannot walk forward and then do cr. MK fireball, because you're gonna get an uppercut. Adding a slight delay (most pros do "walk forward, half circle forward cr. MK fireball" to buffer their motion a bit and delay it) will fix it, but mainly you just need to be aware that throwing a fireball is briefly not an option when you move forward.

[@Demonstormlord]

Good stuff Bafael. Thanks for posting!

[@sajallday]

thanks bafeal, this video helps a ton. I have a question for necalli and charge moves in general, charge buffering. If done right what does it look like, because I try to do the cr mp xxx lp disc,but it connected it half the time.

[@Bafael]

it doesn't look any different when you do it right, it's simply about how soon you start it. I might do a video about this tho

[@SpitefulAZ]

I would love to see a video about how invincibility frames work in this game. My friend was playing hero and was using fierce DP as an AA and it would lose to jump ins occasionally.

[@Bafael]

+SpitefulAZ hero??? Autocorrect for ryu or something? Only medium uppercut for Ryu and Ken has invincibility.

[@SpitefulAZ]

+Bafael what about invincibility for command grabs? which ones are throw invincible vs which ones are hit invincible?

[@Bafael]

I don't know yet :]

[@SpitefulAZ]

+Bafael according to Snake Eyes, Zangief EX command grab is throw invincible. Based on my XP, none of Vega command grabs are invincible in any way.

[@SpitefulAZ]

+Bafael lol yes, that was an auto correct for Ryu, man I had no idea what you were talking about at first.

[@GodOfFunk25]

the biggest thing I'm struggling with in 5 is hit/block stun. a lot of times I'll input a button to punish a whiffed move and the normal or special move doesn't come out because I did it too fast and I'm still in block stun. this is especially prevalent against characters like Nash and Karin.

[@thetipsysparrow9552]

+GodOfFunk25 Use training to get the timing of your reversals right. You could even set a dummy to your character, record the reversal on guard and see when it comes out with different characters' moves

[@GodOfFunk25]

The Tipsy Sparrow that's what I usually do. I think the biggest problem is just transitioning from ultra to 5. I'm getting use to it for the most part but certain characters I'm still having trouble with. Getting there though

[@PotbellyPunch]

the difference in 5 is that crouching jabs are no longer a near universal punish/combo starter tool. so now you need to be more aware of the speed/range of your character's wide range of normals to punish. some jabs in sf5 still can combo but almost none have the kind of range that sf4 jabs had.

[@GodOfFunk25]

PotbellyPunch this has become more distinct over time. I mostly play birdie and I really only use crouch jab as a counter poke or to just get people off of me. A lot of birdies normals are slow so its taken me a while to adjust to what buttons I should be pressing.

[@ArcadePlayersTV]

sweet

[@illinnoise]

this is a very effective skill I use it all the time against opponents who try to walk me down

[@DietPlain]

best intro ever

[@Snooopysniper12]

How many carbs should I be eating if I play video games all day on my day off?

[@DanyalElia]

If the opponent block the first hit will the special move still come out?

[@Bafael]

+Danyal Elia Two other people in the comments asked an identical question. Copying my response: The whole point of this OS is that you're cancelling from a normal that would only whiff unless it counterpokes an extended limb or catches someone walking into the active frames. In both cases the opponent cannot be blocking.

[@SleepayGui]

I don't have SFV so I can't check but does Zangief lack a good empty cancel?

[@Bafael]

+Jake Lee No, his are pretty shitty. The only two moves he can empty cancel into are lariat and super. Lariat doesn't hit crouching opponents and usually doesn't reach at all when st. LK hits at max range. st. LK empty cancelled into CA is actually pretty good but it's mind bogglingly difficult to do consistently on whiff

[@Blackdragon79]

I've seen videos where people will go from crouching medium punch to target combo into special using Ken. My problem is I can't get the target combo to link consistently after going from crouching medium punch. What am I doing wrong?

[@GrayVos]

+Blackdragon79 Its a matter of timing, you cant be to fast and not to slow. The low medium punch part isnt part of the target combo (Chin Buster 2nd) so that one is a bit harder to pull off then the standing medium punch followed by standing hard punch (these two are the target combo) into special. Easy way to practice this is to do cross up medium kick into low medium punch into the target combo. This method leaves you realy up close to the opponent so you have a bit more time to pull the combo off, beside that, its a good cross up when it hits.

[@Blackdragon79]

+GrijzeVos thanks alot for the response. Maybe we can train online sometime

[@thegundamkingr]

Try double tapping/'pianoing' the input, it helps a ton for my ken. cr mp-> mp(doube tap)

[@Bafael]

It's also important to note that cr mp into target combo only works at absolute point blank range

[@SaltiestSalem]

So i keep getting hit by air-to-airs and then grabbed on landing... One guy did it about 5 times in a row to me, and it was obvious he wasnt going to stop. Is there some property that stops me from teching it? I can't seem to do it

[@Bafael]

if you throw him before he lands, your throw will fail and he'll throw you in your recovery. Whoever lands first can pressure the opponent with meaty normals which is much better than throwing. Just make sure you only throw when your opponent is in range and grounded though

[@SaltiestSalem]

I noticed I did that a couple of times but most of the time it looked like I did nothing. I guess I'm just trying to tech a little too late Thanks for the reply!

[@thegundamkingr]

I have loads trouble trying to combo into Karins tenko, I'll get dash most of the time but no punch even though the punch comes up on the input display, I can do the tenko outside of combos 99% of the time but in combos it doesn't want to work. PLinking doesn't seem to help me :'(

[@Bafael]

when you do a tenko raw, the dash comes out the frame you hit kick and you probably do the punch immediately after. When you cancel into tenko, you do the dash anytime before the cancel window, but the game saves it and only execute it once the cancel window happens. What's happening is, you probably hit the punch for tenko before the dash even comes out. Do later cancels or later punch commands to avoid this

[@thegundamkingr]

+Bafael Thanks a lot man, I just tried it out and it helped a lot :D Good luck with the videos

[@thesmilingvagrants]

Will the cancel come out on block or only on hit? Seems like if it comes out on block, then that's really bad, especially for spiral arrow.

[@Bafael]

+acousticplayer3 The whole point of this OS is that you're cancelling from a normal that would only whiff unless it counterpokes an extended limb or catches someone walking into the active frames. In both cases the opponent cannot be blocking.

[@whatisorc]

What is that animal?

[@Bafael]

+Redpotato LAIO The three-toed sloth

[@ShinjukuSensei]

Could you comment on how to make an empty cancel safe, if the opponent blocks? As if the poke connects, but is blocked, it will still cancel. And using eg spiral arrow, will get massively punished.

[@Demonstormlord]

In this game, you can't. In SFIV you had the option to FADC, but the general theme of SFV is that you should commit to your decisions. To minimize the risk of getting your empty cancel blocked, adjust your spacing. You want to be at a range where your attack barely whiffs. That way, if the opponent sticks out a poke, you'll catch them overextending. The opponent will then have to adjust by trying to whiff punish you, walking up and blocking, or jumping, for instance (specific characters have other strategies, but these are universal). Be prepared for these adaptations and adjust accordingly. Good luck!

[@ShinjukuSensei]

+Demonstormlord Great answer, thanks man

[@PotbellyPunch]

another example of how the game so far seems to have focused on avoiding totally safe tech that was so prevalent in sf4.

[@Demonstormlord]

dacitizenonline You're welcome!

[@Demonstormlord]

PotbellyPunch Exactly! I think it's far better for it, too.

[@VinceOfAllTrades]

I'm not sure if this is as relevant to SF5, or even accurate at all, but in SF4 I heard people complain of Guile "mashing flash kick" during block strings. How does that work? I thought charge moves were intrinsically unmashable because once you attempt the move you lose charge and can't re-attempt until you have charge back.

[@Bafael]

dead on the money. charge chars have to be tactical about their reversals

[@erbonprzi2502]

Baf how do u counter poke ..& wht is a "buffer"..these are hot words i keep hearing but idk what they i kno they have something to do w counter poking tho..#LostAbtFoosties #MainAkuma

[@Bafael]

Counterpoke is using a normal with a bunch of active frames or even high priority (i.e. a heavy normal) which beats the opponent's pokes before they can become active, or hits the hurtbox of the opponent's poke before it can recover (which is called whiff punishing). Akuma's HP and MK are probably his best counterpokes in terms of priority, and his cr. MK is probably his best counterpoke in terms of hitboxes. Counterpokes don't always have good range but they often do. Buffering can refer to a few closely related things. Buffering basically refers to doing inputs during something else. So like doing a DP motion before you wake up so you can react easier = buffering a DP. Doing qcf P, qcf P as ryu to get a hadou super is "buffering the first half of the super" inside of the hadouken. Charge buffering refers to charging during other actions, like normals or jumps. You can use buffered inputs to get things like empty cancels kzbin.info/www/bejne/oaPNZqF3gNSbnJY

[@erbonprzi2502]

ok i get it kinda i gotta whiff punish more bro..chun & cammy have these normals tht reach so far..i dnt have a answer on how to beat cammy & ryu frame traps..just block i guess?..

[@Bafael]

Steve Austin a close range fireball is basically a poke with no hurtbox, so from around quarter screen it'll best almost any other poke.Close range fireballs are risky but it's also the most effective range to throw them, especially akumas

[@erbonprzi2502]

Ok my normals always get beat especially against Cammy & Chun umma try the fireball thanks baf

[@erbonprzi2502]

***** i went on a like 8 game win streak ..my neutral game get'n a lil better..but now im running into better nash players.. I'm silver for the moment..lol

[@MrKastle09]

I feel like you would be helping a lot of new players if you re did crouching uppercut.

[@hectorlgarciamartinez690]

They need to make an option to turn off negative edge like MKX problem solved

[@Ilovevidgames123]

... that wouldn't be a good thing. It would lower the potential skill ceiling of the game to turn negative edge off. I guess, if you REALLY just want the convenience, it makes sense.

[@grasshopper30000]

How to play karin

[@BongWatah]

how do I hadoken?

[@Bafael]

+ichigo kurosaki first I need to know if you're seriously asking or not.

[@BongWatah]

***** answer it however you like

[@Bafael]

qcf punch using a shoto

[@mrcharliekane]

but first, we have to talk about parallel universes

[@krehera]

0:48 (in case you didn't get it: kzbin.info/www/bejne/oaHOY6eaqLWbZqM )

[@PrinceATEye]

I luv u

[@matthewserda7275]

Are there any option selects for catching back dashes in this game? I don't currently own the game yet and I haven't seen any videos.

[@Bafael]

Since backdashes aren't invincible, OSes that used to catch them like safe jumps and jab sweeps are no longer necessary. The only time a backdash works now are when they're hard reads on throws, where there's no OS to catch them afaik

[@matthewserda7275]

OMG that's so beautiful. My friend Anthony would always complain that people could just backdash everything and he thought the option select was too stupid.

[@saviorofseals5111]

how the fuck are you inputting the special for the proximity OS empty cancel so quickly

[@BestSuper]

capcom makes a programming mistake? it''s your problem! your inputs are sloppy! get real. Instant Negative Edge ought to be an option that can be disabled in SFV. Maybe it helps some players, maybe it helps some characters, but its detrimental and unhelpful when it's not being 'utilized'. I honestly never had too much of a problem with how quickly negative edge goes into effect because I played characters where it was manageable, but the recent release of Gill has opened my eyes to this problem and now I just don't think I can continue playing this game considering this negative edge issue screws up my inputs at least 50% of the time and that Gill is legit the only fun character to me thanks to his parries. Crouch MP into LP Fireball with Gill is a pretty good option to use most of the time, and if he has V-trigger, then Crouch MP into LP+MP EX fireball into VT will get you setup with a nice starter. The absolute worst thing in this situation is getting crouch MP into MP Fireball thanks to negative edge, because the MP fireball is angled upward and completely whiffs crouching from an optimal distance where Crouch MP connects. It only takes a handful of frames to input the special cancelled fireball once the Crouch MP hits - once the Crouch MP is even pressed - and yet releasing it virtually immediately to input the fireball motion with LP unfortunately takes the negative edge MP into consideration first, even if the LP is pressed clearly still within the confirm window and still before any fireball animation has begun. Maybe Negative Edge is helpful for Ryu throwing fullscreen fireballs and not whiffing a normal if the fireball doesn't hit, but that's a hugely different situation - That kind of negative edge is holding the button down for over 30 frames, which is just about the amount of time that actual Negative Edge 'charge button' characters like balrog or ibuki or birdie need to be holding down to get their intentional special. The truly unhelpful or otherwise ought-to-be-toggleable negative edge issue is when you press the button and release it 5~8 frames later while special cancelling that button to get a special that uses that button. There's no good reason negative edge needs to be instant. Even if it's to help out new players, it doesn't benefit them any to learn to play the game like this. This isn't a player issue. This isn't sloppy inputs. A player issue with sloppy inputs is going wild on the stick and mashing all the buttons and SFV interpreting that as shoryukens and target combos and letting buttonmashers get to Gold. Between auto-corrected sideswitch inputs, an inane amount of leniency and 'shortcuts' for DP's while there is no leniency to even allow downback, downforward, forward to register as a quarter circle, and this instant negative edge - SFV is more like CvS2EO in a mandatory Easy Operation mode where you can't turn it off even if you don't want it or it otherwise gets in the way of trying to play the game normally. No sloppy inputs here. Just Capcom's sloppy programming.

[@Cunt143]

be better at the game