Barely-vangelical: My Journey Through Atonement Doctrine

[@SibleySteve]

I was a Baptist high school, college and seminary student who stopped praying, started making real money and raising a family, got intellectually lazy, and started teaching Sunday School at a mainline liberal church. The pastor asked me to use a Bart Ehrman video series back around 2003 in class as a guided forum. Within 10 years I was a full throated agnostic after reading Ehrman’s book “Gods Problem.” Hitchens and Harris were also good but Ehrman spoke to me. I was a happy agnostic until 2022, I literally stumbled into a local NT Wright lecture and thought, we will see if there is anything left in my heart that he can reach. Ehrman’s book Gods Problem convinced me that God doesn’t deserve our worship because the life of regular and poor people is so unfairly cruel. Bottom line, Wright was so adept at his Greek, which I once minored in, and so good presenting a critique of reformed theology, that I started going to an Episcopal church and got confirmed. All that to say, I am so glad NT Wright is writing and speaking. Because he does such a convincing job of refuting the grievances of someone like Ehrman, demonstrating the way of the ancient church is a healing model rather than a courtroom.

[@BillyBoy66]

Interesting story. Glad your heart had something left in the tank. BTW, what N.T. Wright book were you referring to with regard to his critiquing reformed theology? I'd be interested in reading it.

[@MrPanchoak]

Unfortunately Pastor Wright is no longer with us. But his legacy is.

[@JoelWentz]

Thanks for sharing your story! Always encouraging to hear things like this. NT wright has played a significant role in my faith journey, and I'm sure countless others.

[@SibleySteve]

@@BillyBoy66 He was addressing a reformed audience at Calvin Seminary when I heard him, and his critique of Calvin’s interpretation of Galatians was in his lecture, rather than written.

[@cord11ful]

@@MrPanchoak ?? He's still alive and giving lectures I thought. What makes you think he's passed?

[@NoeticInsight]

The answer to all this is in the Theology of the Eastern Orthodox Church. I used to be Evangelical and becoming Orthodox has completely healed and solved any and all questions I had of God and truly gave me a view of God that shows how incredibly loving He truly is.

[@BillyBoy66]

I hear you but for me there are some things that I can't unread or unlearn. Sometimes it's hard for me to square a loving God with things like the Rich Man and Lazarus in Luke 16. Whether or not this is a parable doesn't matter. Why is Jesus telling us this story of the Rich Man in torment? Just something I struggle with, and I know I'm not alone.

[@harrygarris6921]

@@BillyBoy66 in what sense is the rich man in the parable in torment? It doesn’t say. We know two things about him, he’s still capable of speaking and reasoning, so this isn’t the picture of the firey hellscape with people screaming in agony for eternity that’s being painted here, and also despite his state he still refuses to repent. He doesn’t ask to go up to Lazarus, he asks that Lazarus be sent down to him. I think it’s very reasonable to assume, and the Church often does lay out hell in this way, that it’s a prison of our own making and not something that God is actively doing to us against our wishes.

[@BillyBoy66]

@@harrygarris6921 I think this is wishful thinking on your part. Scripture clearly states that he's in torment and begging for water. You need to ask yourself why Jesus is telling this kind of story? Why is this man so thirsty that he's begging for relief? I don't care how you break it down, this is a very grim picture. To try to spin it any other way is disingenuous to scripture. Say what you want but don't dumb down a clear word picture here.

[@harrygarris6921]

@@BillyBoy66 is the difficulty for reconciling this your assumption that God is “causing” torment to happen to the rich man?

[@BillyBoy66]

Looking forward to watching this. I've read many of the books you review on this channel and some of them have changed or realigned my views on certain doctrines. Thanks for posting! One suggestion for videos this long.... maybe you could use the YT chapters feature to separate topics. It's helpful to the viewer, especially if we want to go back and find something of interest.

[@JoelWentz]

I actually thought I did that! Hah I'm still figuring out some of the technical aspects of all this, but I'll try to edit the video to make sure the chapters are split up. Thanks!

[@cord11ful]

As someone who felt led back to faith in Christ after a 30 year wander, I so appreciate your content - which I've just now discovered. The Christian landscape is bewildering to those new to the world of Christian denominations/traditions. I see flaws with everything, and some value in everything - no one 'church' has it all down according to my understanding of scripture and what I know of God's character. Your compassionate, intelligent, honest approach is a breath of fresh air.

[@timothyagner9015]

“Lamb of the Free” came in the mail yesterday and after classes tonight I plan on starting it and I’m so excited to be taught different ways of viewing the atonement

[@phlday01]

I got my copy a couple of days ago and have gotten through the first 2 chapters. It’s a great book already.

[@powellm415]

Joel, I think all your talks are excellent! Keep them coming! I really appreciate this one in particular. I appreciate how humble you are as you present some really big topics. I’d love to go to your church and listen to you each Sunday.

[@andrewguthrie4989]

I loved this video. As a pastor, I think this can be a great resource for folks questioning and "deconstructing." And it gives me a lot of language to use in my own ministry. I especially appreciated you finishing with not only being at peace, but filled with joy. Keep it up!

[@Wren_Farthing]

I loved this! Not too long at all, and I especially appreciate your generosity in describing what, specifically, resonated with you from each of the books you recommended. My journey on the atonement sounds nearly identical to yours. While I have yet to “land”, the focal points you are emphasizing sound like a beautiful resting place. I look forward to more presentations from your journey. And, please, take all time you want to when you’re unpacking this stuff. I assure you it is worthwhile to your viewers!

[@redeemerlutheranchurchsunc3414]

Thank you for sharing your struggle/journey/discoveries.

[@christopherwest5047]

It made me very happy that you mentioned Athanasius’s On the Incarnation towards the end there. As I am going through a similar process of challenging my inherited beliefs, PSA quickly hit the floor as I started to seriously examine it. However, that left me with the problem of not knowing what Christ did so that we could be saved. Listening to “On the Incarnation” really helped put things in perspective, and gave me some language I could use to express what I was discovering, but the main thing it drove home was the participatory nature of the incarnation/atonement. This was like nothing I had ever heard before, and it was the most beautiful thing I had heard up until then. Now I am starting “Lamb of the Free”, and am looking forward to a better understanding of the OT sacrifices and how they do or do not relate to the atonement/incarnation. Thanks for sharing your journey with us and letting us “participate” in it.

[@BiteSizeBible1]

Absolutely fantastic video. Love your channel!

[@jakobguy2246]

"THAT the atonement worked." Such a great conclusion. Thanks for letting us listen in to your thoughts.

[@KingoftheJuice18]

As a religious Jew, I've always been puzzled in conversations with some Christians about their view that there's no way for God to forgive except through sacrificial blood. Besides the fact that there are many passages in Jewish Scripture which deny that model, it also seems to suggest (as you pointed out clearly) that God is trapped, or has trapped Himself, and isn't truly and freely sovereign to forgive as He chooses. You might find it interesting (or at least cute) to learn that the Talmud contains a teaching linked to a lot of the themes you touched on. It derives from a biblical verse the idea that God regularly prays. And what is his prayer? "May it be my will that my mercy conquer my wrath; and may my mercy overcome my other attributes so that I conduct myself with mercy toward my children, and operate with them beyond the requirements of justice." Among other things, the passage assumes that there's no intrinsic reason that wrath or justice must be "satisfied," or that its demands are binding on God.

[@BillyBoy66]

Why would God need to pray? And to whom is God praying?

[@KingoftheJuice18]

@@BillyBoy66 Ok, so you have to understand what Midrash is. These writings are high-level, biblical "fan fiction," so to speak (in the most serious sense), which are meant to teach us theological, spiritual, and ethical ideas. Obviously, God doesn't need to pray in a very literal way, although God does talk to himself on certain occasions; see e.g., Gen 18:17-21. The midrash is teaching us humans how there is a serious theological tension between God's justice and God's mercy, and it places God firmly on the side of mercy. It also speaks to God's freedom, I believe. God wants His mercy to prevail, but perhaps at times it can't or shouldn't. God is not a cosmic vending machine whose actions we can always control. Does this make sense?

[@BillyBoy66]

@@KingoftheJuice18 It makes sense somewhat. I've heard of the Talmud but not the Midrash. Very interesting. So, when you say that there is "serious theological tension between God's justice and God's mercy", what exactly do you mean? Please elaborate if you can. And also, you said this 'theological tension' places God 'firmly on the side of mercy'. Please explain that a little more. I ask because when I read the Old Testament I tend to focus more on the Justice side of God's nature. I mean I definitely see His merciful side but it's always the justice that jumps out at me. Why that is, exactly, I do not know. Perhaps it's because I've been taught that God's Justice is 'demanded' and God's Mercy is not obligatory. Thanks for taking the time to explain a little more.

[@KingoftheJuice18]

@@BillyBoy66 Hi. When I say, there is "serious theological tension between God's justice and God's mercy" that's just another way of saying something Christians also say: God is loving, merciful, compassionate, forgiving, but also just, righteous, condemning of sin, hating evil. Is it hard to see that these qualities could come into conflict? Now, in the midrash I cited, God "prays" that his Attribute of Mercy overcome his Attribute of Justice-he is on the side of (or favors) mercy; he wants mercy to prevail wherever possible. This is how the Rabbis are portraying God's character, or what they believe God is like. But here's a good biblical expression of a similar idea: In the 10 Commandments, God says he punishes for 3 or 4 generations those who reject God, but shows kindness for 1000 generations to those who love him. The math is definitely in favor of blessing and rewarding. God does punish in the Hebrew Bible, but there are many examples of God's loving mercy, of course: Adam and Eve (they don't die right away from eating the fruit); Cain (exiled and protected, not executed); the Tower of Babel people (scattered, not destroyed); the Israelites for 40 years (God's patience and forgiveness despite their disgruntled complaining); at the Golden Calf (which is where God's "13 Attributes of Mercy" are revealed, in Exod 34). The list goes on. God's mercy is also powerfully expressed in the ability we always have-at any time-to return to God and be forgiven. Ezekiel, chapter 18 is a great teaching on this.

[@BillyBoy66]

@@KingoftheJuice18 Thank you so much for sharing! I appreciate your insight. This is good stuff! It's people like you that make commenting on these videos a blessing to me. Hope your day is blessed!

[@BillyBoy66]

I really liked this format, Joel! I love your insight and I learn from these videos and book reviews. Please keep it up.

[@AnnieKimArt]

Thank you for sharing your insights on this very important topic! I think it would be interesting to learn the history of atonement theory and how the early church understood it.

[@JonPagel]

Thanks for sharing Joel. I’ve been blessed over the years to understand other atonement theories and the rich complexity of all the cross was accomplishing. It hasn’t led me away from PSA but to appreciate it even more in a more balanced way. I think it is important to wrestle through things with authors but also older, godly people as well so I hope you’ve had that in your life.

[@CraigErvin-uh9em]

Thanks for a great talk and sharing the resources. I just finished “Lamb of the Free”- and Moffitts book on atonement is on the desk waiting for me. Those who disagree with your view argue from tradition, not Scripture. The sources you cite are full of Scripture.

[@sallylee2565]

So helpful to help me explain why the PSA view of atonement isn’t what Jesus accomplished through his death resurrection and ascension.

[@Steelblaidd]

A few thoughts. On the order, disorder, reorder path is the same pattern as the Creation/Eden, Fall, and Atonement. In my tradition (Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) the suffering of the Atonement coveres all of the consequences of the fall. Not just the pain of sin but the pain brought into our lives by natural tradgedy and the actions of others. In this model He is taking on Himself the natural consequences of the Fall like a mother throwing herself between her children and an attacking danger. Personally I think He also helps reconcile the consequences of our sins on each other.

[@stuarthoughton1788]

Joel, thanks for sharing your atonement journey. I identify with much of what you describe. I also wondered why God seemed subject to the Law. If God is God why can't he change the rules? Then I realised that the Law is an expression of God's good character - it flows from God, rather than being over him. Penal substitution is a legal metaphor and suffers from the weaknesses you point out, plus it is highly highly individualistic. It appeals to Westerners for these reasons. However, now I prefer to emphasise other metaphors that help people to grasp what Christians are also called to be, as well as what they have be saved from. How very NT Wright of me! But the broadening of my atonement understanding started with reading Leon Morris many years ago. I also appreciate the recent writing of Jeremy Treat. There is room within evangelicalism to for a full range of atonement metaphors.

[@bobwiegers]

lately I've struggled with the idea that could be summed up as "violence isn't the answer, until it is". thanks for talking through these issues. I agree that focusing on the victory and resurrection is much more appropriate and aligns with the emphasis of the scripture

[@thecoopfamily2475]

This is excellent. Subscribed!

[@MrPanchoak]

I'm EO. I thought it was very well done.

[@warrenroby6907]

It was good to hear your story and I look forward to the next ones in the series. I am more vociferous in my opposition to PSA and appreciate your approach because it helps cool me off. I need to work on being gracious as you are.

[@ThePreparedAdventist]

Have you looked into Dr. John Peckham's work? He's a professor of Theology and Christian Philosophy at Andrews University. I think you'll like his books _Theodicy of Love_ and _Divine Attributes._

[@phlday01]

Great video, Joel!

[@nathanaellewis1242]

Another recommended book. Moral Transformation: The Original Christian Paradigm of Salvation.

[@artoh3621]

Good stuff. And you are not the only one on this road. The atonement is a complex thing and the NT only tells you bits and pieces here and there. For me, the words of Jesus are the starting point: his life is "a ransom" and his blood is "the blood of the covenant" and is poured "for the forgiveness of sins". The word "ransom" speaks about freeing your own people from slavery. God sent his son to free the rest of his family from the slavery of sin and death. Our participation in Christ is the key to make this work. We died too. And we rose from the dead too. Christ's ascension to the heavenly "holy of holies" is also important. We were atoned. We were cleansed to be a new temple of God. (Read Leviticus. Read Hebrews. Read Acts.) And there is more... recapitulation, new creation, Christ living in and through us and renewing us in the process.

[@BillyBoy66]

So I guess the question could be.... If there is this thing called 'Justice' that God MUST follow at all costs, does this then mean God is subordinate to a higher power of sorts? And if God is perfectly merciful and perfectly just, then which one of these things 'ought' He follow when the two collide? Great questions, Joel. How would you answer them?

[@BillyBoy66]

One more question, Joel.... If we look at the atonement from a 'victory' standpoint, then who, exactly, receives the benefits of that victory? All people or only those who believe? And if the answer is for only those who believe, then how much of a true victory can it actually be in light of the fact that most will perish?

[@dqan7372]

Despite my dad's side of the family being Mennonite, I've never been bothered by the violence inherent in PSA. To me, it fits in with the rest of Scripture just fine. (Granted, I haven't read Rillera's book. If I ended up agreeing with him, it would rock my world--which makes me naturally suspicious of his claims). I find the other two arguments to be more a delightful challenge best faced sitting on the porch with Scripture in one hand and a big mug of coffee in the other. To be clear, I don't think traditional PSA tells the whole story, and we now find ourselves in a society more likely to get its theology from t-shirts and bumper stickers rather than nuanced texts. We definitely need a fuller, more nuanced understanding of at-one-ment; but to me it sounds like we're preparing to needlessly throw out the baby with the bathwater. I'm more inclined towards examining more biblical babies and more biblical bathwater before we make any drastic decisions.

[@BillyBoy66]

Hey Joel, is there any way to find out if the publishers will release Lamb of the Free and Rethinking the Atonement on audio? I would love to listen to both.

[@harrygarris6921]

Another big problem with PSA that you didn’t mention is that it lacks continuity with God’s revelation of himself in the Old Testament, and throughout the first 2/3rds of the gospels. Through the sacrificial system and the day of atonement ritual sin was banished from the camp and into the wilderness, and the sacrifice was about uniting the people to God through participation. I think PSA flips this and has it backwards for some reason, and we should always be wary of such theologies that break continuity like this. Under the traditional Christus Victor understanding of atonement we are united to God through his sacrifice and in his death he is banished to the wilderness (hades) which could not hold him because of his righteousness. And so in a similar way that he cleanses what is unclean through his life - the waters in his baptism, the sick and the lepers through touching them, the dead by calling them out of the grave, he also cleanses death itself through death, destroying it. There are glimpses of punishment throughout the Bible, but I don’t think it’s ever the punishment that unites us to God or that defeats sin, it’s more of a device that’s used as a kind of boundary enforcer to keep the people of God in line with the covenant. But not to establish the covenant in the first place…

[@enginekun]

How about these books? "Violence, Hospitality, and the Cross: Reappropriating the Atonement Tradition" by Hans Boersma "The Cross of Christ" by John R.W. Stott I wish you could have included in your reflection more on what "sin" is (both individual and corporate), the holiness of God, why Jesus insisted that He came to die for the "forgiveness of sins" (Matthew 26:28), and also if sin and evil is only a bondage that Christ liberated us from, then why is repentance so emphasized and deemed necessary (Matt 4:17, Mark 1:15, Luke 24:47, Acts 2:38)? Also, why must one view one atonement theory as superior to another (or less naive)? Why not embrace and integrate all the different atonement theories, such as penal substitution, Christus Victor, ransom, recapitulation, etc.? Each theory likely holds some truth and collectively, they can help us better understand and appreciate the complex and significant work that Christ accomplished on the cross-a mystery that we must admit is beyond our full comprehension. Peace.

[@SSNBN777]

The way I see it, God performed the first sacrifice, slaying the animals and using their skin/fur to cover Adam and Eve from the shame and physical consequences (losing the perfect climate controlled Presence of God) of their sin. This foreshadowed the Law and it's animal atonement sacrifice to come. Finally, God Himself became the Last Adam, the Sacrifice to take away our collective sin nature by living in perfect righteousness in the same flesh as the First Adam, thereby making a way back into the Presence of God, that Adam lost, and where is eternal life. We're born into the First Adam without choice, with an inherited fallen nature, and we are reborn into the Last Adam by recognizing our need for a Savior from our hopeless condition, and placing our faith in the Lamb of God’s, unblemished by sin, Sacrifice. The suffering on the Cross wasn't God’s doing, but He allowed it for the sake of the salvation plan. They killed all the prophets, and here you have the greatest of them all, the Messiah. Crucifixion is the most tortuous, demonically-inspired, brutal death ever devised. The man, Christ Jesus, at the physical and mental breaking point, no longer able to bear the inhuman suffering, calls out to His Father, have I been abandoned? We're still suffering punishment for our sins, so Christ didn't take that away. Adam's curses have been inherited by us, if we abuse ourselves, we suffer, or if we break the law, we go to jail, etc, so we haven't escaped temporal punishment for our sins. What is the wrath of God that Christ's Atonement saves us from? The Second Death, which is eternal conscious torment, or annihilation, depending upon how one views it. If you're “in Christ”, you won't receive the eternal consequence of your sin, but as the animal skin gave Adam temporal protection, and later the yearly atonement covered their sin annually, Jesus is the first born of the New Creation, the redeemed race of mankind, that is without a sin nature, and who will live forever in the Presence of His Creator, that Holy Spirit called Almighty God/Father (Luke 10:21), and with the Word of God//Lamb of God/Son of God. “I and my Father are one” - one Spirit. And the saved will be one as they are, one Spirit through all, and in all. 1 Timothy 6:13-16 NASB95 I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of *_Christ Jesus, who testified the good confession before Pontius Pilate,_* [14] that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, [15] which He will bring about at the proper time- *_He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords,_* [16] *_who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see._* To Him be honor and eternal dominion! *_Amen._*

[@Dizerner]

People always reject PSA because it "doesn't feel right" to them. Never a valid reason to reject a truth. Jesus promised there is inherent offense in his ways, and anyone who seeks to remove it, is seeking to undermine God's authority and exalt themselves.

[@annakimborahpa]

Barely-vangelical: My Journey Through Atonement Doctrine Response: Your conclusion indicates a moving away from the penal substitution atonement model, particularly by your mentioning the participatory aspect, which is fine by me as you will see, God willing. 1. Are you familiar with Thomas Aquinas' answer in Summa Theologica, Part III, Treatise On The Incarnation, Question 48 - Of the Efficacy of Christ's Passion, Article 2 - Whether Christ's Passion brought about our salvation by way of atonement? "I answer that, he properly atones for an offense who offers something which the offended one loves equally, or even more than he detested the offense. BUT BY SUFFERING OUT OF LOVE AND OBEDIENCE, CHRIST GAVE MORE TO GOD THAN WAS REQUIRED TO COMPENSATE FOR THE OFFENSE OF THE WHOLE HUMAN RACE. FIRST OF ALL, because of the exceeding charity from which He suffered; SECONDLY, on account of the dignity of His life which He laid down in atonement, for it was the life of one who was God and man; THIRDLY, on account of the extent of the Passion, and the greatness of the grief endured, as stated above (Q[46], A[6]). - and - THEREFORE CHRIST'S PASSION WAS NOT ONLY A SUFFICIENT BUT A SUPERABUNDANT ATONEMENT FOR THE SINS OF THE HUMAN RACE; according to 1 Jn. 2:2: "He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world." [Sacred Texts Com /chr/aquinas/summa/sum499.htm] 2. In the anthropology of the human person regarding acts that are informed by reason and deliberated by the will, there are three components: intention, circumstances and object. It is the intention that determines the nature of the act, as in case of homicide whether it is (A) manslaughter, (B) second degree murder or (C) first degree murder. Therefore, the intention is the greatest component. 3. In Aquinas' answer above, he lists Christ's intention first, followed by His identity as God and man second, and the circumstances of His passion third. All three were components in the atonement which was the desired object, but it was Christ's love and obedience that determined how great was His atonement on our behalf, even preceding His identity as God and man which gave the atonement its eternal dimension. 4. Thomas Aquinas' "superabundant atonement" of Jesus Christ involves the gifts of His sacraments to Christians: (A) Seven in number to the Catholic, Orthodox (Eastern and Oriental) Churches and the Assyrian Church of the East; and (B) two in number generally acknowledged by Protestant Churches. 5. Employing the Protestant sacramental model but common to all as an ANALOGY to Thomas Aquinas' "superabundant atonement" model: A. Baptism, through Christ's death on the cross, is a one time event that initially reconciles sinners to God. B. Eucharist, through the Last Supper as a permanent institution, is a continuous celebratory event in the life of Christians after baptism.

[@adrianthomas1473]

Interesting - however Christianity is so much more complex and interesting than US caucasian Protestant evangelicalism. US Protestant Christianity is strange.

[@jordanbey870]

You believe in the Bible in 2024????

[@Cat_Woods]

God can't overlook transgressions... unless he has the blood of tortured person to pre-pay for them. Sure makes a lot of sense. Sure makes for a "loving" and "just" God. I respect your struggle to make your doctrinal understanding more sane and compassionate, but I cannot respect people who wholesale buy into that penal substitution model. In their view "justice" means that Jeffrey Dahmer is eternally rewarded just for choosing the correct evangelical formula of belief before he died whereas millions of people who strove to be kind and to make the world a better place deserve eternal torture just for not choosing the correct formula of belief before they died. It's abhorrent, and I can't respect people who think it's okay, even good, even "perfect justice."

[@BillyBoy66]

So what model of the atonement do you subscribe to?

[@Cat_Woods]

​@@BillyBoy66 None. If you mean which version of Christian theology do I agree with. If you mean, how does one make up for the things we do wrong, that's a complex question with lots of answers. It usually starts with admitting what one did, apologizing to those one wronged, making what amends are possible to those one wronged, and hopefully getting to the point one can forgive oneself. Pouring out the blood of an innocent animal or tortured human does not do anything to improve the situation or make it simpler. It just adds the crime of hurting an innocent animal or human to whatever wrong one wants to atone for. I'm not sure why KZbin recommended this video to me, but I was curious and later impressed that the creator landed on a theology that's less harmful than the original.

[@BillyBoy66]

@@Cat_Woods Yeah, definitely not the place for you.

[@Cat_Woods]

@@BillyBoy66 That Christian "love" again, thanks.

[@BillyBoy66]

@@Cat_Woods Oh for Pete's sake.... grow up, will ya! Clearly you are not a Christian and wouldn't understand these things so I was simply saying this is not the forum for you. Stop acting offended because I absolutely know you are not. You are the kind of person who tries to act offended in order to try to manipulate someone into feeling bad or to somehow undermine someone else's faith. You are a manipulator. Just move on, Cat.

[@franciscafazzo3460]

You're intro, you're speaking skills.Your jagged speech.I appreciate your work but your introduction is horrifically tormenting me