Bart Ehrman and Michael Shermer: How a Forbidden Religion Swept the World

On Sunday, February 18, 2018, Professor Bart D. Ehrman and Dr. Michael B. Shermer connect via home-office computers to discuss Bart's book: The Triumph of Christianity: How a Forbidden Religion Swept the World. This interview is part of the Science Salon series, number eighteen. Dialogues are hosted by Michael Shermer and presented by The Skeptics Society, in California.
In Bart's book, The Triumph of Christianity: How a Forbidden Religion Swept the World, Dr. Ehrman explores how a tiny sect of just 20 people at the time of Jesus’ crucifixion in 30 CE became 25 to 35 million Christians by 400 CE. Imagine if the couple of dozen Branch Davidians living near Waco, Texas in early 1990s, instead of being incinerated by Federal agents in a botched stand-off, went on to convert two billion people around the world to their religion. That is what early Christians did. How did they do that?
Shermer and Ehrman also discuss the modern atheism movement, how Jesus became a Republican in the second half of the 20th century, the intractable (for Christians) problem of evil, the problem of identity for Jesus (how could he be both man and God?), what pre-Christian pagans believed about the gods, what early Christians had to offer pagans that other religions didn’t, how religions invented the afterlife and what people believed before the rise of Christianity about what happens after you die, and other fascinating topics.
Program discussed on Bart Ehrman's Foundation Blog: ehrmanblog.org/...
The book may be examined more here, along with provided purchase links: www.bartdehrman...
Audiobook excerpt link: / the-triumph-of-christi...
Learn more about Science Salon: www.skeptic.co...
Bart D. Ehrman is the James A. Gray Distinguished Professor at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. He came to UNC in 1988, after four years of teaching at Rutgers University. At UNC he has served as both the Director of Graduate Studies and the Chair of the Department of Religious Studies. A graduate of Wheaton College (Illinois), Professor Ehrman received both his Masters of Divinity and Ph.D. from Princeton Theological Seminary, where his 1985 doctoral dissertation was awarded magna cum laude.
Dr. Michael B. Shermer holds a master's degree in experimental psychology at the California State University, Fullerton. He is an American science writer, historian of science, founder of The Skeptics Society, and editor-in-chief of its magazine Skeptic, which is largely devoted to investigating pseudoscientific and supernatural claims. Shermer engages in debates on topics pertaining to pseudoscience and religion in which he emphasizes scientific skepticism.
Copyright © Bart D. Ehrman and Michael Shermer. All Rights Reserved. Unauthorized use, re-posting and/or duplication of this media without express and written permission from Bart D. Ehrman or Michael Shermer is strictly prohibited.

[@lucaclemente10]

As a casual agnostic atheist who was raised as a Christian, I really appreciate the work of Bart Ehrman. I have read most of his books and I find his analysis of the history of early Christianity to be absolutely fascinating. Bart's work has also enabled me to have wonderful conversations with the Jehovah's Witnesses who visit me periodically!

[@quantumeraser4833]

Luca Clemente "As a casual agnostic atheist"--- Agnostic -- Not enough Information to make the call. Atheist --- Lack of belief in the existence of God/gods. So you're just not sure about your Lack of Belief? Makes Perfect Sense. Have you heard ?? ... *1. Scientific Law:* Information/"CODE"/Software is ONLY ever ever ever *CAUSED* by Intelligent Agency, Without Exception! That is...whenever we find *INFORMATION* existing and trace it back to it's source...it invariably leads to an *Intelligent Agent* EVERY SINGLE TIME !! SUPPORT: 1. Library of Congress. 2. ALL Books. 3. ALL Newspapers. 4. ALL Languages. 5. ALL Computer Software. 6. *THE INFORMATION AGE !!!* *Null Hypothesis in Support* : Nature/Natural Phenomena Causation *CAN NOT* create Algorithmic Cybernetic CODING and de-CODING Schemes --- (INFORMATION). If you 'cry foul' and claim there is No "Information" or "CODE" in the " Genetic CODE ", you're screwed... "DNA has two types of *DIGITAL INFORMATION* - the genes that encode proteins, which are the molecular machines of life, and the gene regulatory networks that specify the behaviour of the genes." Hood, L., Galas, D.,: *The Digital Code of DNA:* Nature 421, 444-448 (23 January 2003) | doi :10.1038/nature01410 "The genetic code performs a mapping between the sequences of the four nucleotides in mRNA to the sequences of the 20 amino acids in protein. It is highly relevant to the origin of life that the genetic code is constructed to confront and solve the problems of communication and recording by *THE SAME PRINCIPLES found both in the GENETIC INFORMATION SYSTEM and in MODERN COMPUTER and COMMUNICATION CODES* ." Yockey, HP; Origin of life on earth and Shannon's theory of communication. In open problems of computational molecular biology. Computers and Chemistry; 24(1):105-123, Jan 2000 I have roughly 1.8 Million more in SUPPORT, if needed. Sooo... My Position, *The Null Hypothesis* : Nature/Natural Phenomena causation *CAN NOT* create Algorithmic Cybernetic CODING and de-CODING Schemes. (DNA -- Transcription & Translation) Your Position: *Alternative Hypothesis* : Nature/Natural Phenomena causation *CAN* create Algorithmic Cybernetic CODING and de-CODING Schemes. So essentially, you *MUST SHOW* : Ink/Paper/Glue Molecules Authoring Technical Instruction Manuals/Blueprints...? If Not: Therefore: *'A CREATOR'.* Essentially... CODE contains Information (Such as a Book, Morse Code, DNA, Instructions, ect). Information is only created by Authors. DNA is a CODE. Therefore, DNA has an Author. ('A CREATOR') *2. Quantum Mechanics:* a. *Observe a Phenomenon* : Photons/elementary particles/atoms/molecules exhibit both "Wave-Like" and a Particle behavior. b. *Hypothesis* : If the "Which-Path Information" is KNOWN or can be KNOWN then we will observe "No Interference" (Wave-Function Collapse: *Matter Existing* ); *Null Hypothesis* : Conversely, If the "Which-Path Information" is *NOT* KNOWN and never can be KNOWN then we will observe "Interference" (Wave Function Intact: *No Matter* ). i.e., If the Environment is the mechanism for Wave-Function Collapse (i.e., "Decoherence" --- interaction of quanta with a physical measuring device "Slit Detectors") then we WILL NOT observe any change in pattern (All Detectors will denote ' No Interference '). c. *Experiment* : Which one of the Thousands (Without Exception !!) would you like?? 1. Xiao-song Ma et al. (2013): Quantum erasure with causally disconnected choice. Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA 110, pp. 1221-1226. "The presence of *PATH INFORMATION* anywhere in the universe is sufficient to prohibit any possibility of interference. It is irrelevant whether a future observer might decide to acquire it. The mere possibility is enough." www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3557028/ [THEREFORE, The LACK of *'which-path' Information* anywhere in the Universe is sufficient enough to prohibit any possibility of Wave Function Collapse. i.e. Formation of Matter!!] 2. Kim, Y-H. et al. (2000). A Delayed Choice Quantum Eraser; Physical Review Letters 84, pp. 1-5. The authors show not only that "Knowledge" of *'which-path' Information* SOLELY collapses "The Wave Function" but can accurately predict future actions of "wave-like" and particle behavior after the Signal Photon has registered and before it's twin Idler has arrived; i.e., QM phenomena transcend Time and Space. SEE also: Walborn SP et al 2002, Scarcelli G et al 2005. cds.cern.ch/record/381875/files/9903047.pdf In conclusion, this Experiment Unequivocally Validates: a. Knowledge (Knowing) the *'WHICH-PATH' Information* ALONE causes Wave Function Collapse. b. Decoherence (physical interaction with the measuring devices) *DOES NOT* cause Wave Function Collapse. c. QM Phenomena transcend Time and Space. i.e., Space-Time has *NO MEANING* in Quantum Mechanics. ERGO: "Matter" (Our Reality) doesn't exist without, FIRST: *A "Knower"/Existence of the "Which-Path" Information* . That is MATTER is Derivative ( *The Consequent* ). Consciousness -- "Knowledge" is Primary ( *Necessary Antecedent* ). To overturn the Scientific Falsification of "Locality" and by direct proxy ---- Philosophical Naturalism/Realism (atheism); whereby invalidating Idealism "Christianity" (which is not a "religion", btw) and as an ancillary benefit collect yourself a 'Feather in your Cap' Nobel Prize... Please take up the *Quantum Randi Challenge* (arXiv:1207.5294, 23 July 2012) arxiv.org/abs/1207.5294 www.science20.com/alpha_meme/official_quantum_randi_challenge-80168 .... ( "The Quantum Randi Challenge, hence forth QRC, challenges any pseudo-scientist *[ YOU, as it were ]* who claims that quantum physics is not true and that quantum entanglement experiments can be explained by a classically realistic and locally causal model." arxiv.org/vc/arxiv/papers/1207/1207.5294v1.pdf A Nobel Prize AND $1,000,000(USD) is being offered: All you have to do is... Prove Naive Realism or Local Realism is True and not Observation Dependent. 4 Years + and still no takers, I wonder why? Alice in Wonderland has more veracity and is more tenable than your religion. Therefore: *'A CREATOR'.* ps. You (and Billions of others) have been DUPED by Fairytale Philosophers Masquerading as "Scientists". Why?? Well you wouldn't know what ACTUAL "Science" was if it landed on your head, spun around and whistled dixie!!! And the Fairytale Pseudo-Science Philosopher Priests...they *KNOW IT* so they... *EXPLOIT IT!!* *Wake the #### UP !!!* *3. Laws of Thermodynamics:* *1st Law of Thermodynamics (1LOT)* : The total amount of mass-energy in the universe is constant. (Nature/Natural Law CAN NOT create or destroy Matter/Energy). *2nd Law of Thermodynamics (2LOT)* : The amount of energy available for work is running out, the Universe is moving inexorably to *"Maximum Entropy"* or Heat Death. If the total amount of mass-energy is constant, and the amount of usable energy is decreasing, then the Universe will End - the *'Heat Death’* (The Big Chill) of the Universe; ERGO...it had a *BEGINNING (CREATION)* ---and not the 'big bang' Pseudo-Science Trainwreck. Since the First Law (1LOT) states that Nature/Natural Law *CAN NOT* create or destroy Matter/Energy. AND... Since the Universe had a BEGINNING (2LOT), AND... Since there are ONLY Two Choices, (Nature vs Intelligent Design)--- for 'The HOW' of that Beginning... AND... Since "Matter" (Nature) *CAN'T* Pre-Exist before it's Existence then Poof itself into Existence (before that... Poof itself from Nothing into Pre-Existence)... Therefore: *'A CREATOR'.* Hope it helps

[@elsol8223]

Quantum Eraser All your no sense writing shows no clear evidence, and therefore, A creator? Really? Then Why not “creators”? How do you know there is only one and not millions? No matter how much you write, it doesn’t prove a creator, or many of them. A creator if exist, shows up to see what is going on on it’s creation. Yes, that’s what creators do unless they are dead...

[@thetruthchannel349]

How can you study early early Christianity when all the history from the 3rd century was re-written a hundred times over the next 1000 years?

[@nikokapanen82]

@@thetruthchannel349 Who told you that? Dead seay scrolls shows that what was written in the Bible before Jesus, is what is written in the Bible today.

[@UnimatrixOne]

@@quantumeraser4833 wtf??

[@shujah4ever]

Great Man Professor Bart D. Ehrman. Your laborious work is deeply appreciated, already read your 7 books, and 4 more are on the way.

[@josueribeiro07]

Very interesting. Mr Ehrman is a very inteligent man. I'm from Belo Horizonte, Brazil.

[@MahatmatheMage]

Greetings from Belo Horizonte, Brazil! Congratulations for the both of you! This was a truly enlightening chat! - Editor of Fatos Bíblicos ("Biblical Facts").

[@rangelluizdossantos6965]

Here, from Brazil. Huge fan.

[@LughSummerson]

36:22 "A lot of Christians wear crosses around their necks. Do you think if Jesus comes back he ever wants to see a fucking cross? It’s kind of like going up to Jackie Onassis wearing a sniper-rifle pendant. “Hey Jackie, just thinking of John. We loved him.”" - Bill Hicks

[@rob5894]

Christian is a cult of death. It wallows in death and suffering and actually glorifies it. It is a sick religion.

[@elkinsuaza6394]

I like Bart Ehrman sense of humor. It´s not sarcastic or offensive.

[@Christ-or-Chaos]

37:06 The Ichthys is not an anagram, it's an acronym!

[@Alwaysdoubt100]

Bart is brilliant. I like his books.

[@skepticpsychologist5458]

Bart, could you possibly narrate your audiobooks yourself? Sadly, some of the narrators you have used sound awful and robotic to my ears. Your voice is much better and you're able to pronounce the words you use.

[@NotCapitalist]

I've gotten a taste of the same vitriol whenever I've had the temerity to point out the evidence against mythicism. I, too, have been told that if I think Jesus existed in some sense I'm not a "real" atheist. Just goes to show that bias and poor critical thinking is not confined to the theist.

[@ZinduZatism]

2 great guys.

[@celienepaul5378]

Tq great conversation. I am a Bart follower now!

[@Bookworm-ye9qi]

Great to see you guys again!

[@stiebingiii]

"the next best thing to being really inside Christendom is to be really outside it. And a particular point of it is that the popular critics of Christianity are not really outside it. They are on a debatable ground, in every sense of the term. They are doubtful in their very doubts. Their criticism has taken on a curious tone; as of a random and illiterate heckling" (GK Chesterton)

[@ligayabarlow5077]

Great stuff. Trivial pursuit! An Ehrman forte!

[@tombstone909]

Really need a better mic Bart.

[@jameswaltemath3771]

Hey Bart, it looks like there are some folks down here in the comments that think they can teach you something. LOL

[@DrAskildsen]

The moment we think we can't learn anything new, there is s problem.

[@frederickj.7136]

Add one part rude presumption and two parts Dunning-Kruger effect. Yep.

[@prodigalsun1069]

Loved the interview! I will be looking to purchase the Book. Many valid points. Thanks

[@DavidVonR]

Your best shot at coming up with a naturalistic explanation for Christianity and explaining why the disciples believed they saw they resurrected Jesus is to argue along the following lines: 1. An unknown group of grave robbers stole the body of Jesus the night before the guard was posted. This is despite the fact that the Romans didn't want the body; if the Jews took the body, they would have produced it and destroyed the Christian movement; the disciples had no motive for taking the body and a conspiracy involving that many people is preposterous; grave-robbers who wanted valuables wouldn't have taken a corpse; if gardeners took the body to discourage visitors to the garden tomb, they would have left the tomb OPEN to show visitors that the body wasn't there and to discourage future visits to the tomb. 2. A few days later, the disciples started to have individual and group hallucinations of Jesus that were compelling enough to radically transform them. The is despite the fact that the vast majority of hallucinations are auditory hallucinations that do not occur in groups. Rather, they are unique to the individual. Additionally, given that the women disciples knew the location of the tomb, don't you think the male disciples would have eventually checked to see if the tomb was still full? It makes it very hard on the hallucination theory if the disciples are having realistic hallucinations and the tomb is empty. 3. A large amount of legend must have crept in at some point. This is problematic for at least two reasons: 1. Paul in 1st Corinthians 15 gives an early church creed in which he lists the resurrection appearances of Jesus to groups as well as individuals. There is a large amount of agreement that this material goes back to a few years after the crucifixion of Jesus, and very likely Paul got it from Peter and James during his visit to Jerusalem around 36 to 38 AD. Could Paul have lied? If so, what was his motive in lying about the most important people in early Christianity? For power? Paul by his own account and by the accounts of those who knew him (Luke, Clement) suffered greatly for his faith. 2. The early church fathers (Polycarp, Clement, and others) seemed to have all agreed that Jesus rose from the dead, was born of a virgin, and so on. There seems to have been very little, if any, legendary development among the apostolic fathers. So really what you're left with is having to cobble together a bunch of different naturalistic theories that make a mess of the historical evidence. Or, you could accept the explanation that explains all of the evidence in a very simple and straightforward way: the Resurrection actually happened.

[@joelrodriguez1232]

David in Suspenders exactly!

[@reasonablespeculation3893]

"Disciples" Saw/Believed they Saw a resurection; is no more then a much repeated Story by the indoctrinated, who never met a Jesus Character

[@LarsPallesen]

You do realise that the gospels in NT aren't journalism, right? The claims in the gospels are not the claims of Jesus' disciples but the claims of the authors several decades after the fact.

[@spsmith1965]

Thanks for posting this. I am a big fan.

[@SixStringStrumming]

8 minute mark. So Bart is agnostic because of the problem of suffering. Say we remove some suffering- or even most suffering - that doesn't make the problem go away. People would still question why there is any suffering. Ok so take out all suffering but now what have you got? Answer: heaven. So perhaps the complaint boils down to "If there is an all powerful, all loving God then all people would be in heaven with him". Well what if that's not an option. What if we're separated from God by sin? Yes. God is holy and we are not. Why not make us holy. Free will- we have choice. Why? He didn't make robots? Why not. Love requires free will. Ok so now we have a scenario where God gives us the choice to love him and if we choose to do so then we will one day have heaven. You're right to want heaven. But what makes it heaven is God being there. The good stuff you enjoy here in this time and place? That's just a taste- a taste that is polluted by sin. And it didn't just happen by accident for no reason. Don't question God - he is all good all the time. Evil and suffering come from us. The bible shares a specific promise that every tear will be wipes away. Also remember that the suffering as painful as it is is temporary while heaven is eternal. Also be glad that God cares deeply about suffering. So much so that he did something about it at infinite cost to himself. He gave himself a ransom for many when He sent his only Son Jesus to give his life. This Jesus was raised up as the first of many to eternal life. He became one of us. He came to his own and his own did not receive him, but to as many as received him he gave the right to be called children of God.

[@houmandehdashtidmd9078]

Excellent!

[@JimCampbell777]

Awesome!

[@anatheistsopinion9974]

I approve this video.

[@ArielViera4008]

There's a lot discussion on the origins and evolution of christianity but the theme is kept isolated as if it has grown on his own without the immense and real influence of other concurrent and past religions and mythological beliefs in the ancient world. Christianity did not evolve isolated from other mythological influences and religious thinking of the time, especially the significant influence of Egyptian, Persian and Sumerian mythology. Although Dr. Ehrman briefly mentions mythological beliefs in other religions such as the topic of the resurrection in roman mythology, the fact that they both leave other mythological influences, and astro-theological beliefs in the ancient world out of the question leaves an empty space in a better understanding of the evolution and foundation of Christianity and why it gain so much power (apart from being imposed under penalty of death in many places throughout his history) in the history of the western world.

[@tjworker5482]

I love Bart! I listen to him all of the time. However, does this make me a follower of the serpent AND the TREE of KNOWLEDGE? 😲

[@paradisecityX0]

Not bad discussion. Except the "Invention of the afterlife" bit, the afterlife is a pretty universal concept

[@September2004]

26:58 "Henotheism" I never knew that word existed but I like it. Kinda like the characters in dungeons & dragons and other fantasy worlds. "One True God" is so boring.

[@paradisecityX0]

One true God and many lowercase-g gods is so fun

[@JohnSmith-yw9nk]

Christianity had one crucial difference from most other ancient religions. It was intolerant. If you worshiped the Roman pantheon, you weren’t under any obligation to deny the existence of Odin or Isis, or to force their followers to abandon their gods. Everyone remembers about Roman persecution of Christians, but the reality is that Romans were perfectly willing to live and let live: they would have simply added Jesus to their pantheon and possibly identified him with one of their standard gods (the way they e.g. identified Carthaginian Ba’al Hammon with Saturn), if Christians agreed to reciprocate and to recognize other Roman gods. (Something as simple as making a public sacrifice to Jupiter was typically sufficient to spare the life of an accused Christian.) Romans singled out Christians from dozens of regional cults, because Christians were the only ones aggressively resisting assimilation. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpretatio_graeca Consequently, Christianity was missionary. Ancient Romans or followers of Old Norse gods were under no pressure to convert people beyond their borders, because they did not perceive other religions as fundamentally wrong. Only late Judaism was comparably intolerant, but Judaism was not missionary, because, by definition, it applied only to ethnic Jews, and converting gentiles was not part of their dogma. Therefore we’re left with Christianity, and with its offshoot - Islam - which inherited the same drive to convert nonbelievers. Between them, these two have successfully converted most of the planet, except for parts of Asia where Western missionaries weren’t welcome until recent times.

[@babyyoda6453]

please let the man speak about his book

[@CHJazzman]

I think that there is no problem of pain. It is just that G-d sometimes does good, and/or G-d can be evil. The image of G-d is reality, such as thought, emotion, everything tangible, outer space, our feet if we are walking, the trees, the fish, rocks, and everything else that G-d sustains, even history, including everything inside and maybe outside the cosmos and that G-d likes to reward us for doing good, but it can take a lot. G-d that works to rework the cosmos, what we live in, what we receive and what we don't receive, but that G-d far prefers us to be healthy and well. And, I do believe that there can goodness in that reality, so can there be bad. We are made in G-d's image, creation, so why would there be an expectation the afterlife, why should we expect that suicide there won't be any change. Why worship then? Because if it is bad for you here, I assume that G-d is testing you, or maybe G-d is punishing you, or at least disciplining you, and that may continue the even in the afterlife? Like Ehrman says, I don't think that there is necessarily an afterlife, but what if there is? I too pray to G-d for salvation though I am not a believer in Jesus. I believe in creation. And, if you don't please G-d then, I think the pain won't necessarily go away from you if you do something, such as trying to escape.

[@KeithGiles]

Eternal suffering in hell wasn't a dominant view of the Christian Church pre-Augustine. The main view was Patristic Universalism and the other view was Annhiliationism, along with Eternal suffering in the minority view.

[@tjworker5482]

Why was king david, God's favorite person? A question that has never, properly been answered

[@NoelDiotte]

Cause David told us.

[@davidwest7776]

King David changed the family that the priesthood came out of. The descendants of those priests actively marketed the idea that the man who placed them in charge had a special relationship with God.

[@tjworker5482]

I have a seriously but silly question . Matthew 4:1-4. Is the devil, again; Jesus speaking with (the devil) ,,,,, could the devil be his conscience? Jesus suffering, even then! He didn't talk about devils temptations while on the presumed CROSS! just a question

[@glenthomason9636]

I left when they stated taking about politics

[@anaarkadievna]

11:10 So both Shermer and Erhman admit that atheists are way more aggressive then Christians... well... that's mind blowing....

[@ramnz6851]

A faithful Chrisitan, ex-Muslim, is here. I have followed many of Bart's debates and talks on the net. Obviously, not as smart as Bart but my recollection of all Bart's talks and debates is this simple fact; He could have only been the respected Bart Ehrman as he is today and made a successful career if he would have proved Jesus did exist! Many thanks to Bart as his excellent research works and his arguments on the existence of Jesus has helped to cement my faith more than any other Evangelical Chrisitan's talk and argument. In the meantime, atheists would need to get thier arguments right and deal with the fact that Jesus was a real person who did live 2000 years ago and his teachings are today the worldview and the basis for democracy in the free western world. I hope we dont take it for granted.

[@anthonyesparsen7776]

mike does not know or have a clue what a true bible christian is , he is stereo typing all in the same lump

[@davidanderson9664]

I'm not sure anti-vaxers are usually polite. Christians are generally, but not the antic-vaxers. D.A., NYC

[@wkmac2]

I'm agnostic on the claims of Jesus as myth or real, while being fascinated by the claims of both sides. But if one is going to use Paul as fact of Jesus existence, then why not take ALL of Paul's other claims in the bible as true? Rather see more non biblical evidence on historical Jesus to make the argument of a historical Jesus. And as to rigid fundamentalist atheists, yep seen that too and find it as detestable as the rigid fundamentalist Christian.

[@gorillaguerillaDK]

As Christians was the first ones to be called atheists it would make sense with the baby eating! I mean - who don't love a well roasted baby!? 😜😂😈

[@yasualmasih9058]

They were called Atheists because they only believed in ONE God, unlike the pagan Roman citizens.

[@乙-f1s]

The baby?

[@nativeatheist6422]

GorillaGuerilla + I'm not gonna give up my baby back ribs!

[@diplamatikjuan3595]

You mean like on a skewer over an open fire, served with butter, parsley, red wine sauce, fried onions and a small apple in the little chap's mouth...you're a sick man

[@petmensan]

Yes, if people only knew how tasty babies were, they would all be atheist.

[@reginaldodonoghue9253]

Does the OT contain no notion of heaven or hell? I would argue Daniel 12 does.

[@JohnSmith-yw9nk]

Conclusion Historians regard the existence of Jesus to be "historical fact" as much as any scholar can do so for the existence of an obscure peasant preacher in the ancient world. There is as much, if not slightly more, evidence for the existence of Yeshua ben Yusef as there is for other comparable Jewish preachers, prophets and Messianic claimants, even without looking at the gospel material. Additionally, that material contains elements which only make sense if their stories are about a historical figure. The arguments of the Jesus Mythicists, on the other hand, require contortions and suppositions that simply do not stand up to Occam's Razor and continually rest on positions that are not accepted by the majority of even non-Christian and Jewish scholars. The proponents of the Jesus Myth hypothesis are almost exclusively amateurs with an ideological axe to grind and their position is and will almost certainly remain on the outer fringe of theories about the origins of Christianity.

[@greggallan5175]

John Smith ,it doesn't matter that the Bible is 85% fiction.

[@Feature87]

Absolutely correct!!! People also have to accept that miracles in ancient texts are quite normal and ancient ppl do not believe miracles are simply defined as a violation of the laws of nature (that is 18th century thought) but rather as a means of devine revelation. Thus, refecting almost always expectations of societies and therefore they can be quite informative. Another false presupposition is that fictional narratives in the bible are written for entertainment purposes. While these societies struggle for survival this is a not very realistic presupposition. Fictive narratives like the book of Daniel are political fiction and were addressing the regime of Antiochus IV rather than the historical Babylonian regime of the exile. Or the Romans perceived the potential splitting the Jordan river (as Moses split the red) by Theudas as a threat since it was a purely political symbol of announcing a revolution - new exodus.

[@royindrasyah4446]

How forbidden religion swept the world? The answer is you have to go back to East Roman Kungdom era. Back to that time, the christian should thanks mostly to Theodora, the first Empress of Rome to be christian prior to Emperor Constantine. Her influence inspired Emperor Constantine

[@matthewsmolinsky5605]

I like that they spend the first 10 minutes comforting one another about how rude a handful of atheists are on the internet.

[@sagebias2251]

So many people believe ridiculous things.

[@johnrichardson3072]

Bible lessons from an atheist it works

[@MykolasGilbert]

I like and respect Bart Ehrman, but his argument that jesus existed because of paul knew jesus brother, and peter is like Hans Christian Anderson saying of course gretel existed because hansel knew her and was her brother! If paul was the author of the christian myth, then one of his characters in the B/S story can't be the basis of authenticating fact. Also how do we know that paul was a credible person of any integrity after two millennium of hearsay????

[@LarsPallesen]

That's a real bad analogy. HC Andersen wrote fiction and never pretended to do otherwise. Paul wrote letters to his congregations. If you accept that Paul of Tarsus was a real historical figure (he was) and he tells his followers about a meeting he's had with Peter (Kefas) and James, the brother of the Lord, in Jerusalem, then that should count for something if you're trying to determine whether the story about Jesus and his disciples is nothing but myth. It's a personal account of a face-to-face meeting with Jesus' most famous disciple. BTW they didn't get along very well, Peter and Paul. But I think that just adds to the authenticity. I'm an atheist BTW, if that is relevant.

[@katywendell9566]

Sounds like the learned professor evolved (devolved?) from one extreme to the other - excessive religiosity to scathing skepticism and hard-core atheism. "The Bible has too many mistakes, so forget faith and Godly devotion and join Dawkins' crowd" This is what happens when we equate spirituality to intellectualism and muddle faith with a select accumulation of historical documents. The failure to discern divine wisdom from worldly wisdom. If one's relationship with God was at the mercy of scholarly prowess and intellectual erudition, then only the clever and the well-learned would have access to God and the rest of us riffraff would be left sitting on the curbstone. I don't think that's how it works.

[@frederickj.7136]

In utterly predictable fashion, we have Katy Wendell inventing a straw man argument against a non-existent version of Bart Ehrman, which is of her own perverse fabrication. As usual, we have a militant political-Christian apologist who absolutely *refuses* to hear Dr. Ehrman's own words, here or elsewhere. If there's anything worse than the fractured logic, the unsupportable presuppositions, the ignorance of how nature works, the counter-factual assertions, the blasphemies against established, true Biblical content and meaning, and the naïve, simplistic notions of epistemology which characterize such Christian apologetics... ...It is the personal exemption such falsely asserting persons effectively feel they have from what are truly multicultural, virtually universal & essentially secular and biologically influenced, evolved standards for personal honesty, for fairness to others just tending to their own business without malice and with clearly expressed tolerance, and for just reasonably consistent adherence to concordance ethical standards in general: "I'm with Jesus (that is, 'Jesus, of course, agrees with *me* !')" means 'never having to say you're sorry'° for "alternative facts" or for persistent tactics bathed in self-serving mendacity... for the greater good [of the 'Insider' group], don't you know... Christianity, especially here in America, is pretty much by dogmatic Holy definition, the religion of *absence* of the necessity for consistent personal moral accountability -- Eve ate a piece of fruit, so, you know... The Devil made me do it, so hey... I'm "saved" by Holy Grace, not 'works'... yak, yak, yak. And of course, your Get Out of Jail (Hell) Free card awaits anytime at a moment's notice: "Oh, Jesus..." Shame, shame on shameless, unrepentent deceivers and narrow minded far right wing political hacks clothing themselves in religion. ° Apologies to my late, *great* professor of Classical Civilization, Dr. Erich Segal, for the appropriation here.

[@robinsonnait4252]

born again? tell me more....

[@nikokapanen82]

He said he has a born again experience, he didnt say he met with Jesus and that is the problem.

[@moesypittounikos]

Bart Ehrman should stick to the podium and Shermer should stick with debunking UFO's. Attempting to get into the heads of the ancients without Nietzsche is like attempting relativity theory without Einstein or evolution without Darwin.

[@kaa1135]

Love Dr. Ehrman. This interviewer, not so much.

[@DrAskildsen]

Love all people even when they don't deserve it.

[@JCResDoc94]

14:44 pays to be the brother of the Lord. all the glory, none of the miracle requirements. scam 101.

[@evanesoteric]

11:55 sums up the guest*. You’re welcome, reclaim your time from such absurdity.

[@tomchrobak598]

Sherman is much better at 2x speed. 5 or 10 times might be better. .

[@JCResDoc94]

& we only know a paul claims that about some1. i know you know these arguments, & reply the "history but" argument. which is fine. but burden of proof. vaccinations. any topic fails by those standards. but it is still a gr8 angle. wish i thought of it first. all athiest, but jeeZus is defs real - so brilliant. so brilliant. love everything you do. the blog, all of it. ^^

[@RobertaPeck]

Ehrman is Brilliant historically but ignorant of the brilliance in the leadership of Trump.

[@yasualmasih9058]

Mike Shermer is fast to point Christianity as a cult, but not his religious Darwinian evolution views.

[@Larryaw728]

SwolllenGoat, BS Darwinisn isn't a religion. Looks like your yellow bus is smaller you idiot. Just because Darwinism isn't academically logged as a religion, it functions as one. GOAT is a perfect name for a reprobate like yourself. Evolution is nothing more than idiocy masquerading as intelligence. Lol you dumbshits actually think we came from a rock. A fucking rock... lol... idiots... when you break down how the universe came into existence, you must admit we came from a fucking rock... Fucking Bozos

[@LughSummerson]

larry Darwin did not write about how life started, but how it developed and how speciation occurs.

[@Larryaw728]

Lugh Summerson , correct, however, it seems illogical to purport a theory on the development of anything (let alone, something as amazing as humanity) without addressing its genesis. Stroke the brush any direction you like, it still boils down to blatant idiocy.

[@quantumeraser4833]

SwolllenGoat "Darwinism' isnt a religion or a cult"--- It's worse. At least most religions can be DEFINED, smh. You try it... 'evolution'?? What the #### is that...? Define evolution...? a. Post the *Scientific Theory* of evolution...? b. Post just TWO Formal Scientific Hypotheses then *Experiments* that concretized it into a *REAL* Scientific Theory...? c. Highlight The Independent Variables used in Each TEST...? d. Post the Null Hypotheses that were Rejected/Falsified for each...? Watch this folks.

[@KentBuchla]

He also failed to point out his religious belief in the Theory of Gravity.

[@rizwanrafeek3811]

+Bart D. Ehrman There are at least three reasons I can think of necessitate evil to exists on Earth, one- goodness necessitate evil to exists in pairs, second- free-will necessitate evil to exists obey God or disobey God, third- without existence of evil on Earth we all man kind would have PhD in physics or MD doctors, engineers and so on, no one would want to do the odd labor jobs, however God do not participate in the evil. Suffering of mankind is direct result of power, politics and greediness of powerful-man on Earth. I hope this answers your question. Quran 10-99 If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed,- all who are on earth! wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to believe!

[@Knowledge-vw8xe]

I wasted 10 of my valuable time listening to this Michael Shermer and HIS achievements. while I was planning to listen to Bart Ehrman. Please prof never allow those opportunistic capitalize in your name.

[@timw4383]

Yes, Jesus was a Jew and he did teach the law and the prophets, but what he did not teach was Judaism. Jesus broke away from Judaism to teach the text, not their religious tradition.

[@nandinibandhini]

Tim W Wrong! Matthew 5:17-19!!! What do you know about the Torah, Nevi'im or Halacha anyway? Yeshu ben Miriam grew up with it! You?? He came to fulfill the 613 mitzvot (commandments) not to become a human sacrifice! He taught to KEEP them otherwise no entrance in the kingdom of heaven. Bye, bye.

[@nandinibandhini]

Tim W Gal.5:3: And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under OBLIGATION to keep the WHOLE LAW! (on a sidenote: Jesus was circumcised right?) Hebrews 10:28: Anyone who has set aside the Torah of Moses dies WITHOUT mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Matthew 23:1-3: Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples saying, The scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses seat: all therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do (Judaism right or your man-made Christianity hahahaha)

[@timw4383]

Truthseeker: Jesus taught the Law and the Prophets, NOT JUDAISM. There's a difference. Judaism is not the religion of the text. It is a religious tradition built upon an interpretation of the text. When Jesus began his ministry he broke with Judaism. Keeping the Law is not practicing Judaism.

[@motorhead6763]

Tim W he quotes Talmud "you notice the speck in your brothers eye but ignore the plank in your own" Talmud Bavli Sanhedrin 149a . Dozens of other oral laws also. Hillel and ethics of our fathers as well.

[@timw4383]

motorhead: That's not practicing Judaism Jesus departed from Judaic interpretation of the Old Testament, the Law and the Prophets, in a number of ways. He declared himself to be Yahweh incarnate. Judaism teaches the Christ will not be deity. He declared himself to be the Christ, but that his kingdom is not of this world. Judaism teaches the Christ will have an earthly kingdom only. As the Christ Jesus did not come to go to war with the enemies of Israel or to bring peace, as Judaism teaches. Instead he brought a sword to the home of every Israelite; and that sword remains in every Jewish home to this day. As the Christ he told the nation to submit to their oppressor. He had no intention of delivering Israel. As the Christ he had other plans. He came not to be served but to serve. Again, this is a rejection of the idea of an earthly kingdom, contrary to Judaism. He declares he is the Passover for the forgiveness of sin. Judaism teaches there is no forgiveness associated with the passover lamb. None of what Jesus taught fits with the "Judaic interpretations of the Old Testament," the Law and the Prophets. Jesus did not teach Judaism!

[@timw4383]

We can still be a believer because while Mr. Ehrman's studies are very informative, they are full of errors and based on misinterpretations.

[@timothygibney159]

Tim W Bart Ehrman is the top biblical scholar of North America in New Testament studies. He knows his stuff

[@yasualmasih9058]

Timothy, that may be the case, but he is full of shit.

[@johnstewart7025]

Ehrman questions the existence of God, but he doesn't attack the power of ideas or the possibility of some spirit or power less than an all-powerful God. He says he doesn't have faith in an all-powerful God.

[@lesterhalfjr]

example?

[@healthyskeptic6582]

Yasu Al Masih Sorry...and you're full of what??? I'm afraid that someone is really full of shit...and is not Ehrman..but good try..me loves Jesus freak!

[@phillipandrews8061]

Conservative Christian here. Great conversation!

[@jtwolfstories]

I would really like to volunteer my time and gear to Professor Ehrman and Sherman some more professional video and sound production. During this bizarre time, I would be happy to set up a self-run camera and mic so you can record these videos with quality video and sound. Please IM me if this sounds good. I will pay for everything. You guys are too important to have folks ditch your videos because of poor quality.

[@stiebingiii]

the most significant historical event is the resurrection of Jesus Christ and that changed the whole world. who would die for a myth? the blood of the martyrs is the seed of the Church.

[@rad608]

Obama & Hillary are Christians is hilarious! And going to church makes you a Christian? Just goes to show you that being an expert in one field does not make you an expert at all others 🤦‍♂️

[@seanj8878]

Great Interview; there is a treasure trove of information about the early christianity and how some of the "mystical" beliefs and traditions came into being. Ehrman knows his suject inside and out !

[@thomascunliffe4758]

Love Bart's work. I didn't really have any interest in the history of Christianity but listening to one of Bart's lectures really sucked me in. Even though he doesn't believe it's clear how passionate he is about the subject and it really makes his lectures/books a joy to watch/read! I keep thinking I should join the Ehrman blog! :)

[@bartdehrman]

Look forwarded to your joining the blog soon for one on one comments and conversation!

[@thomascunliffe4758]

Bart D. Ehrman Thanks Bart, I may just do that! :)

[@susanmcdonald9088]

The analogy with the Davidians & a first century movement is skeptical, at best; erroneous, at worst! Dr. Ehrman doesn't belittle believers; he educates them. Skeptics are just arrogant. And pride goeth before a fall. Materialism isn't the whole answer. And belief in nothing, is still a belief.

[@susanmcdonald9088]

goeth before a fall. Materialism isnt the whole answer. And belief in nothing, is still a belief. Unproven.

Great, insightful, and thought provoking conversation. Thanks for the upload.

[@GENESIS-3]

Forget the thought of JC as a substitutional sacrifice. As it comes to the symbolism of animal sacrifices - it cannot be compared to a human sacrifice. While the temple existed Torah accepted animal sacrifices for unintentional sins, but it could not be a substitute for intentional sins - as only repentance can solve that. To offer humans is an abomination according to Torah.

[@motorhead6763]

U Malm true.

[@timw4383]

U Malm: It is so unfortunate that Judaism continues to mislead. What you just stated is an example of how the Jews have misinterpreted the scriptures for CENTURIES. At the time the Passover was established the lamb was worshipped as a god in Egypt. When Yahweh comes to redeem Israel from Egypt, he does not come simply as their God. He comes as the heir to the legacy of Abraham to claim his inheritance. Symbolically he is Isaac, which also makes him the Christ. In the Akeda Abraham does not sacrifice Isaac but he prophesies God's substitute, which is the Passover Lamb. Therefore, God redeems Israel as Yahweh, the heir to the legacy of Abraham, the Christ, and the Passover Lamb. And in Jesus we see the fulfillment of the sacrifice of Isaac. This is done as the final sacrifice which also covers the forgiveness of sins. There are no more sacrifices.

[@cdgncgn]

you have precedence in God asking Abraham to sacrifice Isaac. Abraham obeyed, God stopped it, it was the plan Father had with the Son, and because Jesus Christ is God with Father and Holy Spirit, Jesus cant sin. So He is the Lamb of God, a substitution for your sin. God told to me in a prayer, 'I do not need your money, I do not need sacrifice. I already paid for you'. This is also how God also rejects the modern 'christian' tithing. It is extortion, tax, forced, not free. The old temple is gone, Jesus rebuilt his own in 3 days. He is the priest forever, in the order of Melkhizedekh. Levitical priesthood and old temple became redundant and those who did not believe were left for romans to destroy. If you read your stuff well, you would know that animals cant be really made to forgive you anything. God came with his perfect sacrifice, through sinful hierarchy that condemned the righteous. For 2k years now, Jews resist, because they were hardened by God to not believe, to hear and not listen. To look and not see. Only before Jesus is said to return in His glory, the Jews will be returning to God. And there is no other way to the Father other than through Jesus. Before that, your kind will happpily embrace the adversary and all sorts of false teachings. Many want to believe the 'very' end times are already here, but that is fearmongering. To have others follow them, not follow God. If you dont believe, it is most likely because you choose not to, and because your whole nation is under unbelief. You might consider yourself righteous under the law, but that is only skin-deep. The law doesnt make anyone righteous, only, that who fulfills it, will live from it. For Jesus sacrifice was the only perfect one and for all times. It needs no repetition. Jesus took on himself all the past and future sins, forgiveness that will only reach you if you believe that He is the Son of God, God with the Father. In the first book you have God saying, Let US make (hu)man in Our image. IF youre hardened to not be able to listen, no arguments will work, because it will only mean it is not the time. God is 3, Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

[@anotherskeleton]

Two of my favorite people! Great video.

[@JamesMostowski]

I was born and raised in the Lutheran Missouri Synod church; grammar school & Luther High North H.S. When I finally went to a secular university, I independently studied Judaism, Buddhism, Islam, Hinduism, etc. and finally became an atheist as we learned more and more about the natural world around us through science. I absolutely love Bart's scholarship and Schemer's skepticism and found this talk intriguing.

[@ianrwood21]

I was brought up a Catholic and we certainly were not encouraged to read the Bible on our own. When I did I rejected Christianity.

[@nikokapanen82]

@@ianrwood21 Did you read the Gospels? If so, what were the reasons you rejected Jesus?

[@brucewymore4624]

Interesting discussion with plenty of comic relief. The "Hilliary goes to Church" remark was a particular belly-buster !

[@gregrhodes6802]

And he wrote.... “How Bart Manages To Hold OnTo An Historical Jesus Which Enables Him To Keep His Teaching Job At Chapel Hill”... hahahahaha 😆🤪😆

[@DBCisco]

Islam spread farther and faster. Get honest !

[@IHeartZui]

If you are familiar with Arianist Christianity and the regions they held/populated on the fringe of the Roman empire and you lay a template of the greater majority of Islamic western conquest see you will see a near exact line. For those unfamiliar with Arianists they view Jesus as a prophet not a demi-god, Islam says Issa (jesus) is a prophet.

[@GeneralTHC]

Guy said he knew Jesus's brother, therefore, Jesus existed. If a guy said he knew Santa's brother, therefore, Santa exists, would you buy it? I seriously doubt it.

[@raywingfield]

The Triumph of Christianity: How the Jesus Movement Became the World's Largest Religion by Rodney Stark. how do they compare and how do they differ? maybe an interesting debate?

[@harrygearhart4520]

Hang on folks, the evangelicals are really stirred up since Billy Graham died. The rapture, Jesus, end of the earth. I write in on their podcasts ( where they let me, ha, ha. ) Sorry Jesus isn't coming, not soon, and not ever!!!!!!

[@alfjohns5399]

I see a telescope behind Shermer. Cassegrain Maksutov?

[@aleb.8938]

you should debate with Mauro Biglino, that would be interesting

[@scout2469]

Christianity's major appeal has always been solutions, to problems that didn't exist.

[@thomascunliffe4758]

brian heacock - I'm not sure that's quite true. Even as an athiest I can admit that the problem of suffering and death do exist. It's just that christians have created fanciful and simplistic solutions to these problems.

[@joem1070]

I always find the irony deep that in order to sell Christianity, they embrace a graven image, the cross. And there by making the Ten Commandments, the Ten Suggestions!

[@23ADJ93]

Joe M wut? The Ten Commandments dont apply to gentiles anyways, that’s what the noahide commandments are for

[@kayfox9546]

Like to hear his thoughts on astrotheolgy ...

[@stevepolanco9887]

Interesting Scholarship, Frustrating Misreading of Texts, and Much Personal Speculation.

[@IIIRDWIII]

I am a HUGE Ehrman fan! Great interview!

[@billscannell93]

I have yet to meet these mean, rude atheists who are so much worse than angry religious people. I wonder who Shermer is referring to. My own understanding of atheism has no political connection and really nothing to do with a social movement; it is the absence of supernatural belief, and the granting of precedence to logical thinking and evidence. That is it. It is not something to "convert" to--I saw a witty comment once that if atheism is just another religion, then not collecting stamps is a hobby. If Shermer is saying some atheists are "strident," like Richard Dawkins is endlessly accused of being, for being frank about baseless beliefs being not only untrue but pernicious and, well, oftentimes dumb and nuts...then I guess I am one of those strident atheists. I do tend to think Shermer has too soft a spot for certain bologna peddlers--especially since he is someone who, as the author of the Scientific American "Skeptic" column, has long been a spokesman for scientific truth. (I remain a Shermer fan though; I find him very likeable.) Shermer gives too much credit to people like Jordan Peterson and Deepak Chopra. I admire how Dawkins has confronted Chopra, who has grown vastly wealthy confusing people about quantum physics by marketing it as a Tony Robbins-style self-help program. I think it is permissible to sometimes risk being rude if one is debunking people who are full of bologna and far less than honest.

[@CassandraPantaristi]

Polytheistic religions had/have an afterlife. It is a matter whether said person believes in the afterlife or not. Julius Caesar was a polytheist, and believed he was descended from Aeneas. But didn't believe in Avernus or Hades.

[@theeconomicrevolutionist]

Look up, the followers of the "the way". Jesus is the way, the truth and the light. The way were the earliest Christians who did not call themselves Christians because the institution of Christ created the word Christians.

[@dasGagaTier]

too much Shermer talking.

[@IgorMikeshin]

absolutely

[@kaa1135]

right. he makes dickish comments. First thing he does is tell people how to get the dr.'s book cheaper, then the "shower head" statement (among others), . . . .please. Bart handled him with grace.

[@frederickj.7136]

@ Kevin Ashe... Well, that's very presumptuous. Would you care to unpack any more of the content of Bart Ehrman's head not in evidence here?

[@jeffsawade7353]

The increase in Christians sounds almost as bad as the Coronavirus spread Note 1:19... Possibly just as bad for humanity

[@SuperTonyony]

No one will ever understand Christianity if they refuse to admit that Jesus never existed.

[@tedarcher9120]

Or it is the fact that christian communities were very closed, so they were infected less frequently

[@theden1400]

Funny the more I listen to Bart Ehrman and read to Richard Carrier, the more I lose any believe in religion with blind faith, but my personal spirituality increase. I do believe in Paradoxe and I think both believers and atheists are right at the same time... We are so into black or white vision of life that it's why we still have all these debates about all this... Truth is beyond our comprehension as no one do understand everything about the Universe...

[@LarsPallesen]

One hardly needs to understand everything about the Universe in order to determine whether you believe stories about talking snakes and a woman made from a man's rib.

[@kurtwagner7610]

“Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.” ‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭3:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬ “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;” ‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:23‬ ‭KJV‬‬ “But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.” ‭‭Romans‬ ‭5:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬ “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” ‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:23‬ ‭KJV‬‬ “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.” ‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

[@joshuadanielrocks]

Super Awesome. 2 of my favorite critical thinkers.

[@SenorMorgenStern]

logistic growth curve at 53:00?

[@dtmania]

Yea. Yea yea yea

[@baghead777]

Can we keep the politics out of these discussions? Trump has atheist supporters too..

[@BlackEpyon]

Can't imagine how ANYBODY can't see through his charade.