Bart Ehrman & Daniel Wallace Debate Original NT Lost?

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Bart D. Ehrman

Bart D. Ehrman

Күн бұрын

Пікірлер: 313
@noelhausler2911
@noelhausler2911 4 жыл бұрын
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it". John Stuart Mill.
@samsingletary7004
@samsingletary7004 4 жыл бұрын
You listened to this debate and what you most got out of it is a belief Dr. Wallace only argues for his positions so he can get paid...? Surely there are easier ways to make a living, and more lucrative ones as well.
@anaarkadievna
@anaarkadievna 4 жыл бұрын
That's Bart Ehrman is a nutshell....
@harbourhaven
@harbourhaven 4 жыл бұрын
Explains both of these guy sadly ;) both profit from their professions.
@liljade53
@liljade53 4 жыл бұрын
however, if both guys changed their minds on the subject, their books in which they professed why and how, would be best sellers. So I don't think it's an issue
@EdgeOfEntropy17
@EdgeOfEntropy17 4 жыл бұрын
@@harbourhaven "sadly?" What is wrong with a man getting paid to work?
@PriestlyScribes
@PriestlyScribes 6 жыл бұрын
Why does Ehrman assume that earliest manuscripts were copies of copies? Just because we don't have the originals doesn't mean that the early scribes didn't. It's actually quite logical to assume that they probably still had access to the original a mere 100 years after the fact. Therefore it's disingenuous to insist that all manuscripts were copies of copies. It seems more logical to assume that there were tons of copies of the original rather tons of copies of copies. At least for the first several hundred years.
@GaudioWind
@GaudioWind 5 жыл бұрын
It seems to be a very interesting debate. Too bad that the quality of the audio turned out to be too low for my understanding of english.
@davidhoffman6980
@davidhoffman6980 5 жыл бұрын
Debate starts at 7:40.
@nickolasgaspar9660
@nickolasgaspar9660 4 жыл бұрын
Debate???? lol
@armymobilityofficer9099
@armymobilityofficer9099 6 жыл бұрын
Daniel Wallace is pretty impressive.
@nickolasgaspar9660
@nickolasgaspar9660 4 жыл бұрын
I think he is dishonest to him self at best. -"I lost my keys" -"no you didn't lose them, they are at your house or in your car or at your office......mixed with a huge pile of keys".
@jennifer97363
@jennifer97363 4 жыл бұрын
Army Mobility Officer.... I thought, as always, Ehrman was brilliant. A remarkable scholar.
@PM-4564
@PM-4564 4 жыл бұрын
@Benjamin Figgins A response someone else wrote to a similar comment: "He didn't lie. He was very much misinformed via a trusted source and admitted to it and apologized correcting his statement. In this video it's clear that Dan put great rust in him with his evidence... You sound angsty. Chill." Both Wallace and Ehrman had a good debate performance, and your attempt to disregard Wallace's segment because of a publicity mistake shows your lack of respect for serious scholarship, and that you've decided who you thought the winner of this debate was before you even watched it.
@noahhawkins6170
@noahhawkins6170 4 жыл бұрын
Army Mobility Officer yes he is
@alfredgomez3906
@alfredgomez3906 4 жыл бұрын
You had one job: record the debate! But noooooowa!
@megavide0
@megavide0 6 жыл бұрын
12:07 Urquelle/ Original Text? 17:08 *2. Corinthians* "... spliced together... " 19:07 "... it was argued that ... around the year 100 some editor came along and collected the letters of Saint Paul into one Manuscript..." 28:21 "... manuscripts..." 30:43 "... How many differences are there?.. 1707... John Mill... " 32:14 "... There are more differences in our Manuscripts than there are words in the new Testament..." 36:57 "... Lots and lots and lots of copies of the New Testament... What we don't have are lots of early copies... reliable manuscripts..." 37:37 "... What does 'the original text' even mean?.. Where are the early manuscripts?.. Why can't scholars agree?..." 41:28 Wallace 43:25 Two Attitudes: King James only! / we really don't know... ;) 57:07 "We have at least three times more New Testament manuscripts today, that were written in the first 200 years of the composition of the New Testament, than the average greco-roman author has in 2000 years. ... To argue that we don't have many manuscripts from the first 100 years is only true in relation to later New Testament manuscripts..." 1:05:16 "It would be a mistake to think that the uncontrolled copying practices tat led to the formation of the Western textual tradition were followed everywhere that texts were reproduced in the Roman Empire. In particular there's solid evidence that in at least one major see[sic?] of early Christendom, the city of Alexandria, there was conscious and conscientious control exercised in the copying of the books of the New Testament. Textual witnesses connected to Alexandria attest a high quality of textual transmission [from] the earliest times..." 1:07:00 *P75* // _Urquelle?_ 1:09:21 Nestle-Aland Greek New Testament 1:11:49 "The differences are so trivial that they can't even be be translated..." 1:13:37 "... several very early fragments of the Testament..." 1:15:14 "... a leap of faith where the guard rail should have been..." 1:17:00 Ehrman, responding 1:23:14 Wallace, again 1:23:42 2nd Corinthians 2:28:49 Ehrman 1:39:37 "... texted-in questions..." 1:47:07 "... game of telephone..."
@benvids
@benvids 5 жыл бұрын
Thank you.
@EdgeOfEntropy17
@EdgeOfEntropy17 4 жыл бұрын
This comment needs to be at the very top! WELL DONE.
@astrazenica7783
@astrazenica7783 9 жыл бұрын
Wallace is pretty comprehensive, his arguments are sound. One of those debates that rests on definitions, grey areas
@nickolasgaspar9660
@nickolasgaspar9660 4 жыл бұрын
He is irrational and dishonest to himself. He needs to accepted the common usage of the word "lose". He claims that the original NT is not lost....its somewhere in a huge pile of scripts....and we don't have a way to verify which version is the one.... This is what the word "lose" means...
@manne8575
@manne8575 4 жыл бұрын
@@nickolasgaspar9660 Wallace made more sense than Ehrman, get over it.
@noahhawkins6170
@noahhawkins6170 4 жыл бұрын
Manne facts
@UnimatrixOne
@UnimatrixOne 4 жыл бұрын
@@manne8575 lol
@SaadBinAlamgir3345
@SaadBinAlamgir3345 4 жыл бұрын
@@manne8575 No proof no Manuscripts! Get lost! You lost!
@brogeorge7
@brogeorge7 6 жыл бұрын
Bart Ehrman's definition of radical is a bit deceptive. It refers to the extremity of the viewpoint not to the number of people who hold said viewpoint. He used his nuanced definition to give himself the chance to continue to cry, "scholars agree." So instead of trying to allow his arguments to stand on the merit of his evidence and reasoning, he tried to infer if you don't agree with him, you are not agreeing with the smartest people on the subject. If you listen throughout this debate. Ehrman appeals over and over again to scholars and Wallace to evidence.
@neill392
@neill392 5 жыл бұрын
Actually radical simply means root, to be radical means no more than to get to the root of the problem.
@theelectricorigins846
@theelectricorigins846 4 жыл бұрын
Papyrus in wet conditions can hardly survive longer than 300 years (say 500). Romans used parchment for official documents, but it would have been too expensive for normal people. And it should have been difficult to gather so many papyri too. The most common medium should have been leather. How many people was able to write and read especially in Greek in ancient times (apart from monks)? How many of them could afford the use of so large amount of papyri?
@EnglishMajor2029
@EnglishMajor2029 9 жыл бұрын
Thank you so much for posting this! I always look forward to your debates, I'm a huge fan!
@natureboihikes162
@natureboihikes162 7 жыл бұрын
Professor Ehrman, I thank you for your work as a scholar, debater, and as a collegiate professor. That being said, I have been debating whether or not to go back to seminary and continue, as an agnostic atheist, instruction on history, the languages of the bible, epistemology, textual criticism and the like. I truly wish to understand the bible from its texts and be capable of examining them in such a manner. Again, thank you for all that you do.
@olorunseunenitolumo
@olorunseunenitolumo 7 жыл бұрын
Joshua Ciresoli The folks at ehrmanproject . com are more likely to give you an answer. They are not atheists or agnostics but they are interested in your well-being.
@tigistyiheyis5737
@tigistyiheyis5737 4 жыл бұрын
@@olorunseunenitolumo jesus is lord
@SaadBinAlamgir3345
@SaadBinAlamgir3345 4 жыл бұрын
@@tigistyiheyis5737 No
@randyw.8781
@randyw.8781 6 жыл бұрын
"out of all those manuscripts no variance changed the cardinal beliefs of the church" So I agree that the abundance of many in that light strengthens not weakens the testimony of who Jesus is and what He taught as truth. Not a conspiracy to make up a lie.
@matheno9494
@matheno9494 5 жыл бұрын
The Johannine Comma attempts to establish the Trinity concept directly in the scriptures. It fails under critical examination in that regard.
@seanmoore9713
@seanmoore9713 5 жыл бұрын
None of the early church fathers tried to use the Comma as a defense of the Trinity. If they had that in their possession, they definitely would have used it.
@benvids
@benvids 5 жыл бұрын
16:00 - Assumption that Paul did not communicate with his scribe(s). One could argue the scribe made a mistake but there is no evidence of this. Similarly there is no evidence to suggest Paul didn't have the scribe read to him upon completion. Nor is there evidence of many other scenarios one might propose.
@SIDI1590
@SIDI1590 4 жыл бұрын
Dr Wallace wrap up.." We have to assume, for progress sakes" when people base their lives on the bible especially here in Africa where it is taken literally. Can we assume things? From Nairobi. Kenya
@edgarvera4621
@edgarvera4621 6 жыл бұрын
A good debate. I side with Dan on this one. Much more thorough than Bart on his presentation but Bart did make some strong rebuttals. At the end of the day I believe Bart makes some serious assumptions that he cannot prove. His characterization of incompetent scribes based on the writings of the early church fathers up to the 2nd century poses some problems upon which it is possible to draw diverting conclusions. I just felt as if professor Wallace was a very competent presenter of the reliability of the text and Bart wasn't able to really surmount the confidence argument that was presented by Dr. Wallace. Bart's arguments are like placing a magnifying glass over an anthill and claiming that it's a monumental problem. Both have erudition and respectable knowledge and achievement.
@nickolasgaspar9660
@nickolasgaspar9660 4 жыл бұрын
Try using Dan's arguments in a Paw Shop, while trying to sell an old book and tell us how it went!
@pdxcorgidad
@pdxcorgidad 4 жыл бұрын
Your bias shows in the way you address the speakers and on your personal videos. You should do your best to attempt to remain unbiased.
@jennifer97363
@jennifer97363 4 жыл бұрын
edgar vera ...For me, Ehrman won this debate. I’ve only ever seen him stumped once, and I’ve watched many debates. He is reputed to be near to the top of the list of the world’s NT scholars, and I believe it.
@zahidulhasan3240
@zahidulhasan3240 4 жыл бұрын
Bart Ehrman is a Scholer of Bible , he had Doctorate Degree on it , yet you said he had weak argument just because he told the truth that you cant bear or maybe you think he should preach some emotiònal think what your church father do rather than Logic ???
@yanekcastell1886
@yanekcastell1886 7 жыл бұрын
I found the opening quote of Mat. 24:36, very telling on how things might go, in this debate. The majority of Scholars wouldn't deny it was doubted, in being part of the original book of Matthew. I wonder why he didn't mention Mark 13:32? that verse isn't questioned by most, as it being original. Mark 13:32 NET ""But as for that day or hour no one knows it--neither the angels in heaven, nor the Son--except the Father." I hope the rest of this is going to worthwhile. Finishing with it soon.
@Shirohige33
@Shirohige33 6 жыл бұрын
Dan was more coherent not tiresome repeating and better positioned.Bart despite the fact that he is a priori prejudiced against any kind of miracles (and he made it clear that he abandoned faith for the problem of evil,despite the fact that intellectually the problem of evil has been totally destroyed from Plantinga since the 70's) he is not honest about the reliability of the NT manuscripts.
@pelorix4969
@pelorix4969 6 жыл бұрын
You honestly think Plantinga solved theodicy in the 70's???
@ogagaeruteya3685
@ogagaeruteya3685 6 жыл бұрын
Personally, i think if Bart can get round the problem of evil, he'd probably review his positions. His personal testimony reveals that the major turning point for him was the inability to grapple with the problem of evil. No wonder he does not say he is an atheist but a happy agnostic.
@Frankiebrandom1
@Frankiebrandom1 6 жыл бұрын
Ehrman, "Glass of water half empty" Wallace, "Glass of water half full".
@kruelton
@kruelton 6 жыл бұрын
You are right! I am very analytical, as much or more than Bart... the difference, Bart is missing the main ingredient - FAITH!
@jujojamt
@jujojamt 6 жыл бұрын
Wallace just wrong. Dr Ehrman critically analyzes Scripture as an historian in the 21st century. Dr Wallace, although seemingly also doing the same, does so with his admitted evanglical agenda. His position is compromised by his partiality. Six years later Wallace apologizes for a key statement he made in the debate. His agenda blinded his skepticism. First-Century Mark Fragment Update BY DANIEL B. WALLACE. (from danielbwallace.com) 23 MAY 2018 Apology In my debate with Bart, I mentioned that I had it on good authority that this was definitely a first-century fragment of Mark. A representative for who I understood was the owner of FCM urged me to make the announcement at the debate, which they realized would make this go viral. However, the information I received and was assured to have been vetted was incorrect. It was my fault for being naïve enough to trust that the data I got was unquestionable, as it was presented to me. So, I must first apologize to Bart Ehrman, and to everyone else, for giving misleading information about this discovery. While I am sorry for publicly announcing inaccurate facts, at no time in the public statements (either in the debate or on my blogsite) did I knowingly do this. But I should have been more careful about trusting any sources without my personal verification, a lesson I have since learned. No such apology required from Ehrman.
@williamtotherow3367
@williamtotherow3367 5 жыл бұрын
@@kruelton So you believe whatever without questioning?
@azad1718
@azad1718 5 жыл бұрын
frank brandom lol only thing Wallace did is vomiting blah blah without evidence. Dr Bart provided evidence with his criticism of erroneous bible
@theelectricorigins846
@theelectricorigins846 4 жыл бұрын
"Epistemological humility" is GREAT MOTTO. Bravo.
@SciPunk215
@SciPunk215 7 жыл бұрын
Video starts at 7:30
@jonfromtheuk467
@jonfromtheuk467 5 жыл бұрын
Bart , love your work, bought the books etc however re the telephone comment - I have indeed seen you make the comment re the oral tradition being passed on, that its like the telephone game or Chinese whispers as I know it, where you tell someone something and by the end of passing it on over time and over people it has changed, so I think it was a fair question.
@cs.0903
@cs.0903 8 жыл бұрын
fascinating debate....
@sbushido5547
@sbushido5547 9 жыл бұрын
As someone who knows next to nothing about this sort of thing, I think the "Onion" or "Union" argument would sound a lot better if Dr. Wallace wasn't talking about texts that described the miraculous events you find in the bible.
@Johnnisjohnnis
@Johnnisjohnnis 9 жыл бұрын
Good Sir, you fail to realize that the original wording actually said "Onion", not "Union". This error originates from a secretary failing to understand how the great nation of USA is like an onion, it has layer upon layers. And beneath all these layers we all come together as fellow human beings to form the greatest nation on earth.
@land1sea1lions
@land1sea1lions 9 жыл бұрын
Johnnisjohnnis also, just like an onion, it stinks!
@trustinjesus1119
@trustinjesus1119 6 жыл бұрын
Bart says, "We have to _weed_ through them (the manuscripts)." That's kind of your job, Bart.
@jujojamt
@jujojamt 6 жыл бұрын
Bart is right. That's what historians (legitimate, reputable) do. No agenda, no cherry picking, as so-called Christian apologists do with history.
@jamesdaniel1376
@jamesdaniel1376 5 жыл бұрын
@@jujojamt Your assumption that historians have no agenda is basically incorrect. I cite the recent trend towards revisionist history and the attempts to erase from history anyone who is not politically correct. If someone owned slaves, forget the good ideas that we still celebrate. Disregard the historical context, then wipe them off the pages of history. Tear down their statues and monuments. Replace them with obscure figures. Historians are human and fall to the same ideological issues and agendas that everyone can. Even science is faked.
@dangunn6961
@dangunn6961 5 жыл бұрын
This is one of the best debates I've heard. Thank God for scholars. I wish instead of religions and cultures bickering and fighting they would combine efforts to explore space. There is something out there. And I hope we find it soon.
@WordOfAlmightyYah
@WordOfAlmightyYah 9 жыл бұрын
I did not know that Dr. Ehrman had a KZbin channel! He is one of my most powerful influences when it comes to my own studies. Similar to him, I was raised under mainstream doctrine, and I took everything I taught as fact. But unlike him, I never went to college. I did, however, start leaning New Testament Greek in high school, since homeschooling with my mom provided that luxury. And I've been studying it ever since. In that time, I made many similar discoveries. It was so hard for me to accept what I was finding because of how contradictory it was to my whole religious upbringing, but I would be a fool not to accept the facts. I was devastated, for example, when I came to discover that the Bible (at least in it's unadulterated form) never makes a solid claim for Jesus being Almighty God in the flesh. It was while I was in my mid-twenties that I first read Misquoting Jesus, and Dr. Ehrman gave me much insight into this new world. It made me feel so much better knowing that there was such a man championing these ideas that had made me feel isolated from friends and even family. Right now, I'm working on videos for my own channel that deal with such topics. Some of them are uploaded already, but they're unlisted for now. If anyone's interested, subscribe to my channel and you'll be updated when I release my videos.
@bryansphere6359
@bryansphere6359 6 жыл бұрын
Bart Ehrman’s rhetorical skills are stronger than Dr. Wallace’s. But Dan showed to be stronger in the analytics department. Good discussion. Both scholars are gentlemen. I’d like to hear them again with a better debate format ... with 10 minute cross exam and rebuttal portions. Soli Deo Gloria!
@EdgeOfEntropy17
@EdgeOfEntropy17 4 жыл бұрын
Ehrman is using the same old argument that he used against James White. You would think he would see the error in doing so, but for some reason I guess he feels he is winning these debates.
@roybaines3181
@roybaines3181 4 жыл бұрын
Even if hypothetical you could get back to the original text word for word intended by the authors, all you would have is a STORY. I'm sure some believers think it would equate to jesus rose from the dead and ascended to heaven historically.
@chasmbakeriii
@chasmbakeriii 9 жыл бұрын
Keep digging, Dr. Ehrman. Keep dusting us with gold. Thank you!
@jimchumley6568
@jimchumley6568 7 жыл бұрын
Charles Baker III Dusting us with gold?😂 Boy that is lots & lots of laughs.
@servenet299
@servenet299 5 жыл бұрын
Typical atheist clownish remark. Mere bias is a comfort pill though.
@marvinmuslim
@marvinmuslim 9 жыл бұрын
He keeps on saying we have to assume that we have the original NT in front of us.... I don't want to assume I wan to to know
@addjoaprekobaah5914
@addjoaprekobaah5914 7 жыл бұрын
Marvin Davis walk back into history. Oh wait you can't.
@paulbrandel7348
@paulbrandel7348 5 жыл бұрын
Well, Wallace states we have broad strokes of what the NT originals state. Sure much for trusting in all of the New Testament! 😅
@Calum2244
@Calum2244 6 жыл бұрын
For the people who think Dr. Daniel B. Wallace won this debate. I will quote him here and quote what he said after the debate and leave the link. Dr. Wallace debate response, "I believe that we can be relatively certain that we can recover the wording of the original text. Relatively and Confidant." Now his response after the debate, "I have never said in our debates that we are absolutely certain of the wording of the text of the New Testament. So, I would agree with him that “we really don’t have any way to know for sure.” But that’s a far cry from saying that we don’t have probability on our side." A whole different tone from the debate. He actually sides with Ehrman, WOW. danielbwallace.com/2012/05/01/the-bart-ehrman-blog-and-the-reliability-of-the-new-testament-text/
@epiphanydrums5427
@epiphanydrums5427 3 жыл бұрын
AUDIO NOTE !!! TRY HEADPHONES The scrambling audio distortion disappeared. (Ear buds might do the same thing )
@RF-nx9pm
@RF-nx9pm 7 жыл бұрын
Seems Ehrman 's whole argument is based on his perceived mistrust of ancient scribes.
@motorhead6763
@motorhead6763 7 жыл бұрын
Really Fun. They admit adding John 5:7-8 and hundreds of other words ideas. Church fathers modified the hebrew bible also.
@Pastor-Brettbyfaith
@Pastor-Brettbyfaith 7 жыл бұрын
Really Fun This is because he has placed his trust in the wisdom of man as opposed to the wisdom of God. Did he ever trust the Holy Spirit for his interpretation of scripture? Where is faith? Why even speak of faith where textual criticism is concerned? I studied textual variants for over 27 years, yet I have returned to my faith and trust in God as I read his Holy word, as translated in the King James Version. No confusion for me, and I am not a KJVO, but I am and will always be a KJV first believer!
@noah7477
@noah7477 6 жыл бұрын
@@Pastor-Brettbyfaith this was a historical interpretation debate not a stupid one about being filled with the spirit
@julie2518
@julie2518 4 жыл бұрын
R F That’s what you took from this?
@trommelnsmeindng
@trommelnsmeindng 4 жыл бұрын
Does anyone know what came of the first century manuscript about which Dr. Wallace spoke?
@knowledgeofself4
@knowledgeofself4 6 жыл бұрын
After watching the debate i read the comments and is just curious as to how ppl thought dr wallace won this debate. Were we watching the same debate?
@YoureRatherDumb
@YoureRatherDumb 5 жыл бұрын
Ehrman equivocates (really, really obviously) in a number of places. See, e.g., 1:20:53. "...would you seriously think that that would be better than having 5,000 copies that didn't disagree at all?" Well, no. Obviously not. What Wallace was saying was that it would be better than having one copy, which is what we have for the overwhelming majority of texts from the era. Frankly, I do not trust a man who tries to trick his audience in that way. He is intellectually dishonest.
@servenet299
@servenet299 5 жыл бұрын
Let me guess...you´re not a Christian, probably an atheist or at least an ¨agnostic.¨ What a surprise that you´re dazed and confused concerning how that ¨ppl¨ concluded that Wallace won the debate. Bias is a strong mind-controller. But I´m sure you´re not _biased_...now...are you?
@billhildebrand5053
@billhildebrand5053 5 жыл бұрын
D-iz ballin where do you stand with Jesus¿
@andywong9847
@andywong9847 3 жыл бұрын
Time to debate on the Dead Sea scrolls.
@spencer7093
@spencer7093 5 жыл бұрын
Torturous audio. Almost unbearable audio. Painful audio!
@hermenneutics6235
@hermenneutics6235 6 жыл бұрын
In hindsight Dan's source for this so called 1st century fragment must have been Donald Duck.
@servenet299
@servenet299 5 жыл бұрын
Dumb, guy. To err is human. Which apparently leaves you out...know what I´m saying?
@SpiritFJT
@SpiritFJT 5 жыл бұрын
Just came across this. Both gentlemen, Wallace-the-believer and Ehrman-the-agnostic, provided valid opinions / ideas / feelings on the topic question - is the what-we-call the New Testament (NT) original writings lost ? We do not have any “originals”, either being destroyed intentionally or simply over time by decomposition. I will go out on a limb and state, if God wanted us to have the “originals”, I’m pretty sure He would have ensured such. But working with imperfect beings as is, the evidence is clear we do have the “gist” of NT stories, due to the vast number of copies, although not identical in form, of the times of the being Jesus the Christ - from announcing via John the Baptist, the birth, limited childhood life, his mission, arrest, trial, execution, death, burial, ascension, initial spreading of the gospel and discipleship, and future events. The most important task is keeping the message accurate for salvation. Unfortunately, this itself has seen many scholars and laypeople turn onto various side avenues for whatever reason drifting from the basic truths focusing on meaningless points causing dissension among the brotherhood and vexing (the Holy) Spirit within some. Are we all supposed to be identical in looks, actions, gifts, skills, etc ? Most importantly, we, believers, are called to be one in Spirit - a very hard task in itself. Even today, erosion continues on key doctrinal points - some holding fast to the simple and plain scriptures; some wanting to and the water-downed version. Your choice, but make sure you are doing so with a sound reason. The real judge is standing at the real door ... In Christ + 😇
@lodewijklangeweg742
@lodewijklangeweg742 5 жыл бұрын
It's not about an original text, but about the original Truth. The original Truth is God and His human appearance, and the various ways that Truth is pointed at by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit of God are the various texts. Also, St. Augustine shows in his book "Harmony of the Gospels" how the seeming contradictions among the four Gospels are different ways of addressing the same Truth.
@MendicantBias1
@MendicantBias1 6 жыл бұрын
It is worth pausing to ask why the god of the universe would choose to express themselves through anonymous authors and confusing, often contradictory documents rather than simply stay here on planet earth for all to see and hear. After creating the universe on a quantum foundation, slinging matter together over billions of years into stars and planets, exploding supernova to create heavier elements that make up our bodies, god decides to have the bible be his preferred method to communicate his presence and will to us? You could say it's our fault for not understanding him, but then why does he suffer our limitations? Appear to all civilizations simultaneously throughout time to prove his greatness. Simply put, god can do a lot better than this...
@ogagaeruteya3685
@ogagaeruteya3685 6 жыл бұрын
Even if he did as you have described, you probably would still doubt him. But the point is, we often forget to give God his prerogative. Can't God decide how He wants to be revealed? We have a preconceived notion of how God must be and do things. What if He chooses to do it the other way round? I think that's what really makes Him God. If He does everything the way we think or expect, how would He be any different from us?
@tom_ad9343
@tom_ad9343 6 жыл бұрын
Mendicant - Or more directly, why didn't God the flesh just write his ideas down directly in numerous languages, with numerous copies (enough for 5,000 to read)? It's simply not possible for a thinking person to believe that an omnipresent, omniscient being intervenes and partakes in complex, current human affairs - yet didn't understand the value and importance of the written word, choosing instead the oral tradition. The "Life Of Brain" comically nailed this point succinctly, in the scene where Jesus is delivering the Sermon on the Mount - only to have Brian shout out the ultimate truism from the back, "Speak Up!"
@lodewijklangeweg742
@lodewijklangeweg742 5 жыл бұрын
"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." ~1 Corinthians 2:14
@Thormp1
@Thormp1 4 жыл бұрын
To be a Christian, They must ignore 90% of the bible that counsels evil. They must ignore the hundreds of commandments of the bible that they don’t feel like following. They must ignore the fact there is no corroborating scientific or historical evidence the bible is true. They must ignore all the evidence the bible is just a myth. They must ignore all ancient documents and myths from which the bible was plagiarized. They must pretend not to notice how the church exploits the poor and vulnerable. They must pretend not to notice the sexual exploitation of children fundamental to the church.
@jansteinvonsquidmeirsteen2256
@jansteinvonsquidmeirsteen2256 7 жыл бұрын
It's a credit to you for posting this debate. Since the differences between you seem to boil down to matters Christological, which were hotly contested for the next three centuries of the Eastern Roman empire, I wonder if a more substantive debate around Christology and the syncretic formation of Christianity from a textual basis could occur-- not the least of which being the trinity. The matter is not the differences as you both state, but the significant differences in the doctrine which reflects multiple origins.
@weiyishen
@weiyishen 6 жыл бұрын
Dan Wallace emphasized the value of the high number of Greek MSS we have today; but don't most scholars reject the 'variant readings' found in the great bulk of MSS, in favor of only a few favorites? Is Wallace any different?
@Robert.Deeeee
@Robert.Deeeee 9 жыл бұрын
1:49:00 this is from 2011 where's this 1st century manuscript?
@Heretical_Theology
@Heretical_Theology 5 жыл бұрын
He didn't lie. He was very much misinformed via a trusted source and admitted to it and apologized correcting his statement. In this video it's clear that Dan put great rust in him with his evidence... You sound angsty. Chill.
@PM-4564
@PM-4564 4 жыл бұрын
@@Heretical_Theology I see a lot of bitter people commenting about that manuscript, acting as if it means Wallace's entire academic career should be tossed in the trash.
@roscoboxer
@roscoboxer 9 жыл бұрын
Daniel Wallace's final point is something similar to what I hear from other Christians. In a nutshell, he said _if the new testament manuscripts aren't untrustworthy, then all other literature in western education might also be wrong and we might as well go back to the dark ages._ ...something to that affect. This reminded me of what my mother said to me once: "God must be real. If he wasn't, life would have no meaning. I wouldn't want to even live if God wasn't real." In other words, _I couldn't stand it if God didn't exist, therefore, God exists._ This seems to be the same sentiment as to why new testament manuscripts _must_ be trustworthy, because if they weren't, it would really really suck. That's what I took from it anyway.
@Johnnisjohnnis
@Johnnisjohnnis 9 жыл бұрын
It's too bad Dr Daniel Wallace don't find it beneath him to end the evening with a false dichotomy and an appeal to consequence. Nothing of what Erhman says goes against the claim that "Jesus Christ is our lord and Savior".
@Johnnisjohnnis
@Johnnisjohnnis 9 жыл бұрын
edmack4me I'm not saying Wallace is right, I'm just saying he doesn't have to be right to believe that he's right. All he needs is a gap small enough for his god to fit into. ;)
@dionsanchez3131
@dionsanchez3131 8 жыл бұрын
No. Since Greek and Roman history is taken serious and is based only on a number of relatively few manuscripts, the NT's reliability should also be taken seriously. That' what he means. It's not wishful thinking. It's a point-based upon the number of manuscripts we possess.
@RagingBlast2Fan
@RagingBlast2Fan 7 жыл бұрын
"if the new testament manuscripts aren't untrustworthy, then all other literature in western education might also be wrong and we might as well go back to the dark ages. ...something to that affect." How in the world does it follow from the above, that: "God must be real. If he wasn't, life would have no meaning. I wouldn't want to even live if God wasn't real." And then how does this statement entail that: "I couldn't stand it if God didn't exist, therefore, God exists." In no way does anyone reach the conclusion that, "This seems to be the same sentiment as to why new testament manuscripts must be trustworthy, because if they weren't, it would really really suck." The point is that if you believe anything about history you would also think the bible to be reliable. If you don't think the bible is reliable then you have to concede that we know nothing about our supposedly documented history. Since only lunatics are willing to grant that, then only lunatics would be willing to admit that the bible is unreliable.
@russedav5
@russedav5 6 жыл бұрын
roscoboxer Such a conveniently hypocritical avoiding of reality. If deceitful, hypocritical antiChristian bigotry like Ehrman's won't even follow the standards for which they laughably claim to reject the NT when it comes to other books they thus groundlessly do accept, why should such hypocrisy be listened to? There's only one possibility*: intolerant antiChristian bigotry lusting after evil and so desperately grasping at any straw to keep God out, even if it means committing intellectual suicide like most today do, e.g. Chapel Hill's vile history of antiChristian bigotry that might explain Bart's place there. *=I first wrote "reason" instead of possibility, but there's clearly no reason involved in denial of reality.
@FlencerMcflensington
@FlencerMcflensington 4 жыл бұрын
@1:15:00 The papyrus fragment of Mark he references has yet to be published...wonder why?
@namapalsu2364
@namapalsu2364 4 жыл бұрын
Is that sarcasm or are you genuinely curious?
@henrimourant9855
@henrimourant9855 4 жыл бұрын
It was published it just turned out not to be from the first century.
@gregt4202
@gregt4202 7 жыл бұрын
I like Ehrman and believe his observations are valid. However, he lost this debate. His talk was repetitive. Probably a 10 minute pitch stretched to 30. In terms of "believability", Wallace came off as more credible with better analytics.
@Dizzinator2114
@Dizzinator2114 7 жыл бұрын
Greg T Wallace didn't come off credible to me in a lot of points. Bart clearly shut down anything Wallace had to say in thy e first round. His second he reiterated Wallace did nothing but prove that the majority of these manuscripts came late and that from the first 3 centuries you have 42 verses... Bart is not talking about Latin and all those other languages because we know the nt writings were likely Greek... So any other language is just a transliteration of a copy... Therefore Bart is sticking to This point. That since we don't have any complete manuscripts we don't know what they said. That's a win
@vesogry
@vesogry 6 жыл бұрын
+ Mr. G - Wallace did win, you are just biased.
@mystre3550
@mystre3550 6 жыл бұрын
He always says you have to do your own research. His message is simple. If you believe that these were actually God's words spoken through men. Then how come all is not in the Bible we have today.
@junkim5853
@junkim5853 4 жыл бұрын
@@Dizzinator2114 DId you watch the debate if Bart truly believed that we didn't have any complete manuscripts and we don't really know what they said then we can't argue anything of the bible and about the bible. Wallace already pointed out Ehrman's hypocrisy and he still believes and uses the bible to support his own arguments such as the existence of the historical Jesus Christ. By his own logic if he truly followed that he can't use the bible as a source to prove the existence of Jesus.
@justinwhipperman3672
@justinwhipperman3672 9 жыл бұрын
I don't know if this debate is strictly on manuscripts, and this isn't to criticize Dr. Ehrman's debating in the least, but a key point was missed near the end: Christians aren't claiming that the NT is an accurate depiction of a form of Christianity at a certain time, but so accurate that if you don't believe them you will suffer eternal damnation. The problem of eternal destiny hinging on rumors aside, if we're going to accept that premise, is "good enough" historicity good enough? Ministers aren't calling the NT a record to study, they're calling it the divine truth and instruction filled with esoteric knowledge, not errors. Daniel Wallace is sort of slipping the audience a mickey. He's suggesting that if he can show the NT is good enough as a record, it's reliable as an absolute divine truth accurately conveying human destiny and God's terms for eternity. If anything the NT shows why the esoteric and legendary faith model of God is untenable: The believer isn't putting faith in any God, but in the integrity of the people talking and writing about him.
@superhoga
@superhoga 7 жыл бұрын
Maybe, but this is one of five debates. Your point may be outside the scope of this particular one.
@superhoga
@superhoga 7 жыл бұрын
It's faith in God's ability to preserve His words. Be careful you don't assume what you're trying to prove.
@defeatingdefeaters
@defeatingdefeaters 6 жыл бұрын
Bart finally lost a debate...well, Swinburne beat him too. And yes, Wallace was surprisingly solid.
@jujojamt
@jujojamt 6 жыл бұрын
Dr Ehrman critically analyzes Scripture as an historian in the 21st century. Dr Wallace, although seemingly also doing the same, does so with his admitted evanglical agenda. His position is compromised by his partiality. Six years later Wallace apologizes for a key statement he made in the debate. His agenda blinded his skepticism. First-Century Mark Fragment Update BY DANIEL B. WALLACE. (from danielbwallace.com) 23 MAY 2018 Apology In my debate with Bart, I mentioned that I had it on good authority that this was definitely a first-century fragment of Mark. A representative for who I understood was the owner of FCM urged me to make the announcement at the debate, which they realized would make this go viral. However, the information I received and was assured to have been vetted was incorrect. It was my fault for being naïve enough to trust that the data I got was unquestionable, as it was presented to me. So, I must first apologize to Bart Ehrman, and to everyone else, for giving misleading information about this discovery. While I am sorry for publicly announcing inaccurate facts, at no time in the public statements (either in the debate or on my blogsite) did I knowingly do this. But I should have been more careful about trusting any sources without my personal verification, a lesson I have since learned. No such apology required from Ehrman.
@rationalsceptic7634
@rationalsceptic7634 6 жыл бұрын
If Bart lost why is he still an Atheist...Wallace is just another self deluded Moron who never checks his sources...Dr Richard Carrier would destroy him!!
@justabeardedguythatisahero9848
@justabeardedguythatisahero9848 5 жыл бұрын
@Mike Bell don try , these people are arrogant , to them Christianity is nothing but a lie for fundamentalists , they been abused by bad parents mostly , even all the evidence in the world won' convince them they cannot let of their ego that their precious world view is wrong ..... oh wait it is all a materialistic world , we r nothing but a chemical machines with no free will .
@TheMaggsy1
@TheMaggsy1 5 жыл бұрын
@@rationalsceptic7634 because like you he's in denial about reality.
@TheMaggsy1
@TheMaggsy1 5 жыл бұрын
@@jujojamt oh right and you and Errman have no agenda. there is none as biased as those that claim to be impartial.
@lodewijklangeweg742
@lodewijklangeweg742 5 жыл бұрын
What is better: to look at a issue from one point of view, and have it explained in one way only, or as seen from more than one point of view and explained in more than one way? What will give the most comprehensive understanding of the issue?
@jamesdaniel1376
@jamesdaniel1376 5 жыл бұрын
It depends on the accuracy of both sides. Ehrman makes much ado about nothing to borrow from Shakespeare. When you twist information to make your case, you don't add to the sum total of knowledge, you subtract from it. You muddy the waters.
@JDVmusicSound
@JDVmusicSound 5 жыл бұрын
Such a strong opening statement from Bart. Sums is all up
@jamesdaniel1376
@jamesdaniel1376 5 жыл бұрын
Except that he doesn't change the minds of actual Bible scholars.
@billhildebrand5053
@billhildebrand5053 5 жыл бұрын
John DelVento are you wanting to go to heaven¿.
@SaadBinAlamgir3345
@SaadBinAlamgir3345 4 жыл бұрын
@@billhildebrand5053 Not interested in pagan heaven
@phenomenal17playz
@phenomenal17playz 3 жыл бұрын
Bart ehrman debunks in the manuscripts of the new Testament
@bluestarindustrialarts7712
@bluestarindustrialarts7712 5 жыл бұрын
Good debate on the historical value of ancient documents with respect to their even more ancient original sources. But here's the thing: If an agent such as a God who created the universe and has a plan for humanity were to author of cause to be authored a book, it would be one small volume...The Book of God. It would be easily understood by people's of all languages, would be comprehensive in scope, would be consistent with all scientific and historical evidence up to and including the end of humanity. It would be incapable of being wrongly interpreted or interpretation differences by groups of individuals. It would be without error and unparral to anything any human could create because it would exceed human ability Of God wrote (or inspired its writing) we could expect nothing less. Instead, what we have is the exact opposite. The earliest Christians did not agree, the early church fathers did not agree, and the dozens of denominations that exist today don't agree. And they all read the same book. NT, OT, Quaran, and other God texts have nothing but the fingerprints of men all over their pages.
@antonydigirolamo7927
@antonydigirolamo7927 5 жыл бұрын
Blue star. I have thought the same thing for many many years. Why would not a omnipotent God transmit his message in a manner clearly understood and incapable of interpretations errors which have led to 40000 christian denominations.
@bookghadi9695
@bookghadi9695 4 жыл бұрын
Differences between groups doesn't mean that they are all wrong; that's not logical, one of them could be right. And yes, the massage of God would probably be easy to understand by most of people (educated and not educated) and be superior to any other writing and i can't tell about NT&OT because I haven't read them, but the quran is easy to understand ( as long as you know the language ) and it's superior to any other thing ever written in arabic.
@matheno9494
@matheno9494 5 жыл бұрын
1:14:37 for those seeking the Wallace's announcement about first-century Mark fragment.
@excalibur92
@excalibur92 3 жыл бұрын
The fact that the existing Greek manuscripts contained 400,000 variants only proves that the Greek Texts are only translations from the original one which is the Aramaic. The Aramaic Texts are highly uniformed in writings, the variants are very few and in accordance to the masoretic level of uniformity. We must start to investigate the Aramaic paradigm of the New Testament and I have a very strong faith that Aramaic is the original language of the New Testament, after all Aramaic is the language of Jesus and his disciples.
@EderMallet
@EderMallet 7 жыл бұрын
The manuscript mentioned by Dr. Wallace, after all, was published?
@akd0192
@akd0192 7 жыл бұрын
No, it still has not been published yet.
@zzzubrrr
@zzzubrrr 5 жыл бұрын
@Phil Patterson you were never a christian.
@bbravoo
@bbravoo 4 жыл бұрын
That 2% difference was a bit misleading as he meant a 2% difference in length. You can change the 100% of a text and the difference in length would be 0%
@motorhead6763
@motorhead6763 7 жыл бұрын
Comma Johanneum, Koine greek papyrus p75, None of the hundreds of variant versions of NT used match the source being koine greek. Erasmus and Luther both knew this fact.
@dynamic9016
@dynamic9016 4 жыл бұрын
Great debate
@samnik9760
@samnik9760 5 жыл бұрын
Bart Erhman says Jews do not make mistakes when copying texts. Ermm Tthe last time i checked the new Testament is in perfect harmony with the Old Testament, hence why not trust the preservation of the New Testament.
@julie2518
@julie2518 4 жыл бұрын
Sam Nik Soooo, when was the last time you checked? 🤔
@globalimpactministries766
@globalimpactministries766 6 жыл бұрын
I enjoyed this debate. Dr. Daniel Wallace did a great job! To say that we cannot trust the copies of the NT would be the same thing as saying that we cannot trust the historicity of any of the copies of Greek and Roman literature. Since the earliest extant complete copies of the NT are only a few hundred years after the original autographs were written (fragment papyri and longer papyri texts exist from the early 2nd century onward) and since the earliest extant copies of Greco-Roman literature are often a thousand or more years after their original autographs were written, we know that the NT is certainly more reliable than most of the literature of the ancient world. Furthermore, it is hard to find many extant manuscripts of the Greek NT from the first 300 years of Christian history because of the severe Roman persecution that existed before Constantine became Emperor after the battle of the Milvian Bridge (AD 312). Pagan Roman Emperors like Diocletian (303 AD) ordered the burning of Christian manuscripts along with the mass murder of thousands of Christians. Thus it is easy to see why we have many more complete copies of the NT after Christianity was legalized by Emperor Constantine (Edict of Milan - 313 AD) from the early fourth century onward and so few within the first few hundreds years of the Christian era. I am a Oneness Apostolic Faith Christian Apologist with a growing number of books, articles, and videos on apologetics in order to defend the first century Apostolic Faith by giving credible answers to every attack on Apostolic Christianity. View ApostolicChristianFaith .com and Subscribe to the Global Impact Ministries KZbin Channel. Blessings!
@GaryHudsonsMusic
@GaryHudsonsMusic 9 жыл бұрын
Wallace was indeed referring to Ehrman as one of the "radical skeptics." He's not being honest on this point at all.
@jimchumley6568
@jimchumley6568 7 жыл бұрын
TheExRepublican Thats such a bullshit comment. Daniel Wallace is perfectly sane.
@motorhead6763
@motorhead6763 7 жыл бұрын
Gary Hudson. Long ago church burned alive people as heretics for even discussing this...let alone us Jews...
@superhoga
@superhoga 7 жыл бұрын
I highly doubt that. Ehrman is not that radical. He at least believes Jesus existed. Spong is a radical. He isn't sure that he exists. Robert Price is a radical skeptic. Wallace is plenty erudite to be aware of the spectrum of disbelief.
@vesogry
@vesogry 6 жыл бұрын
+motorhead - actualy Copernican heliocentrism was though at Catholic universities as a theory and there was no censorship. Try to teach Intelligent Design, or something contrary to man made global warming and you will find which group is more open minded. "people as heretics for even discussing this" - You are just full of leftist propaganda. "burned alive people" - yes about 2-6 thousand for 500 years. There is more abortions in an hour. So you have to have the sense of proportion. "burned alive people as heretics for even discussing this...let alone us Jews..." - Jews created communism (2% of jews in Russia, 80-85% in Communist party), so they killed about 100 million. Jews worked with Spanish Inquisition to persecute newly converted Jews, called conversos. So the jews aren't really victims here. Being atheist doesn't make you smart, read a book.
@russedav5
@russedav5 6 жыл бұрын
A conveniently fact-free accusation, name-calling not being rational argument, typical for deceitful Bart's deceitful allies.
@ISLAMislam-od5lc
@ISLAMislam-od5lc 5 жыл бұрын
so the conclusion is , that the actual bibles(NT) are the continuous correction of the available forms of early scriptures through time which end with 4 different bibles any way ! but still it is ok for your majority , so after 2 or 3 centuries superman could also become from a fiction a legend then a true identity , if the same criteria will be applied .
@sheaquintin1695
@sheaquintin1695 5 жыл бұрын
So the question is, are these texts intended to be an accurate depiction of real events? Or the relaying of a popular narrative with the purpose of transmitting a meaningful message to the reader?
@faizalhossen2289
@faizalhossen2289 6 жыл бұрын
Melbourne, Australia. Great debate. Prof Bart Ehrman made his points clearly and even a 5 yo kid would understand. Mr Daniel Wallace tried to defend the undefendable. It is mentioned that there are 400,000 errors/variances in the Bible. (30,000 errors/variances according to Jehovah Witness) . Yet, we are told to believe and accept ,that the Bible is the Words of Almighty God, despite of the admitted so many errors/variances. Are we fool? My questions are: (a) What type God is He if He can not defend His Book? (b) Who made the scribes made these so many errors/variances in the Bible? God or satan? Certainly, the answer is satan. Then, if satan made the scribes made that many errors/variances in the Bible, then for sure, satan made them also got into errors about the so called crucifiction of Jesus.
@rayober2273
@rayober2273 6 жыл бұрын
So list 10 errors and changes for me.
@benjasamu6694
@benjasamu6694 5 жыл бұрын
Faizal Hossen it’s obvious you really didn’t listen to the debate. Both Professors agreed that none of those variants affects or changes the core tenets of the Christian faith.
@PapalSoldier
@PapalSoldier 6 жыл бұрын
Anyone know what book Wallace was talking about that was coming out soon?
@henrimourant9855
@henrimourant9855 4 жыл бұрын
The manuscript was eventually published and it wasn't first century. The whole thing turned into a massive fiasco and scandal you should just look up First Century Mark or Dirk Obbink (the guy at the center of the scandal).
@walkbyfaithinlove
@walkbyfaithinlove 4 жыл бұрын
Mr. Ehrman's behavior was out of line. This was a discussion, not a debate; and even debates are not laced with a sore disposition. I praise God for it, as it made me research him further and I discovered that he is an atheist (agnostic) - that explains it. I am not in agreement with Mr. Wallace's position, as I am not a fan of textual criticism nor of Westcott/Hort's work, thus I am not a fan of NA28/UBS5, so my opinion is not based on a bias viewpoint.
@plwpahi
@plwpahi 7 жыл бұрын
Daniel, "I believe we can be relatively certain that we can recover the wording of the original text". Two and a half years later and still nothing, sooo "relatively certain" means, never going to happen?
@Dizzinator2114
@Dizzinator2114 7 жыл бұрын
plwpahi that's because it can't be done. They have no way to know what is original
@wolfsurvival2009
@wolfsurvival2009 4 жыл бұрын
Oh wow. 2.5 years is nothing compared to the whole amount of time taken to even get to the point where we are now. Maybe you could read up some more, or take your claims elsewhere.
@throcmorton
@throcmorton 6 жыл бұрын
Did Jesus Christ Himself read from the original Old Testament? Did any of the apostles read from the originals? No. Did Jesus or any of the apostles act like dr.Bart relative to this fact? No. Did Jesus promise His words would never pass away?Yes. Is it true that quotes from scripture from the early church fathers collectively form our New Testament? Yes. Do we have enough New Testament mss.to make reasonable judgments if certain scriptures were part of the original letters? Yes. Well over 5,800 manuscripts complete or fragments some of which are quite large. There are some 10,000 Latin manuscripts and some 9,300 manuscripts in various languages going back to the earliest centuries.
@jimiwilliams
@jimiwilliams 5 жыл бұрын
We dont have any because of Diocletian. And what survived was because they split up the original works.
@tke7986
@tke7986 4 жыл бұрын
known aliases: Double Barrel Dan
@johnwhelan9663
@johnwhelan9663 6 жыл бұрын
Ehrman's arguments are so poor here that I wonder about his sincerity. Surely he must know better. I've researched textual variants (in a non-Biblical contexts), and everything Wallace says is correct. Most variants are beyond trivial; more texts equals more variants; but more texts equals more confidence that you can reconstruct a text that reflects the original.
@LuciferAlmighty
@LuciferAlmighty 6 жыл бұрын
No you can't, the original text is lost and will never be known.
@Abubakar-yt1sh
@Abubakar-yt1sh 5 жыл бұрын
fie fie!!! you are need to reconstruction of Your word of God.. very funny!!!!
@junkim5853
@junkim5853 4 жыл бұрын
@@LuciferAlmighty go read his argument properly. Let's give an example of a lecture. Over 500 students went to this one lecture and took notes from the lecturer. They never copied what the lecturer said word to word but took notes what the professor said for 3 hours. You decide to collect all 500 notes from the students that took notes during the lecture and reconstruct it. You can rest assure by collecting 500 notes you can accurately form what the professor actually said in that lecture even if these students never had the actual literate copy of what the Professor said.
@davidhoffman6980
@davidhoffman6980 5 жыл бұрын
"Less than 1% of all textual variants fit this group" I guess he thought that sounded better than "Less than 40,000 textual variants fit this group".
@justincox9025
@justincox9025 5 жыл бұрын
David Hoffman four thousand is 1%
@JerryPenna
@JerryPenna 5 жыл бұрын
David Hoffman yes, like if the news reported an oil spill in the number of teaspoons instead of barrels of oil. Purposely trying to shade the narrative in your direction but patently dishonest.
@keenantruffen4
@keenantruffen4 4 жыл бұрын
Justin Cox it’s truly not even 4000 because only 1-5 of one percent are meaningful which adds up to 800 meaningful variants so he literally exaggerated it by 50 times. Even thought it could have been a spelling mistake
@andrewolson248
@andrewolson248 9 жыл бұрын
Bou't time Bart. I can't get enough of this shit. If Isis reads this comment they might want to cut my head off. Meanwhile I'm just trying to raise a family in the Midwest.
@Phobos_Anomaly
@Phobos_Anomaly 8 жыл бұрын
Why would anything you said make ISIS want to cut your head off? They would want to do it, regardless.
@1974jrod
@1974jrod 6 жыл бұрын
I find it interesting that Bart starts with Mark, and then shifts gears to 2 Corinthians.
@nickolasgaspar9660
@nickolasgaspar9660 4 жыл бұрын
both are part of the NT
@nickolasgaspar9660
@nickolasgaspar9660 4 жыл бұрын
btw 2 corinthians...if you pay attention to the talk, is the earliest copy of the NT that we have.
@throcmorton
@throcmorton 6 жыл бұрын
Did the apostles know their inspired writings were being copied and were being sent to various churches? Yes. Did they warn and complain about this fact? No. Did Jesus around 90 AD when Revelation was written ( John says nothing 90 AD when letters were being copied and circulated about his previous writings were corrupted) mention He was concerned copies were being made of the apostles’ writings that His Spirit had inspired? No. He knew they would be accurate enough so as not to violate doctrine.
@motorhead6763
@motorhead6763 7 жыл бұрын
Original NT most likely would have been written in Aramaic not koine greek. Seems like a moot issue to debate since no one has original NT and church fathers admitted changing adding to it such as 1John 5:7-8 along with Mark 16:9-29 and Mathew 29:19. Erasmus and Martin Luther knew this fact.
@cassandraseven3478
@cassandraseven3478 7 жыл бұрын
motorhead Yes, would love to have the Aramaic.
@ianrwood21
@ianrwood21 7 жыл бұрын
What possible reason do you have for arguing that the original NT was written in Aramaic? Name one credible qualified scholar that believes this.
@larrytruelove7112
@larrytruelove7112 5 жыл бұрын
We have nothing earlier than the Greek. Aramaic versions show evidence of being translations from Greek. The Greek versions give us quotes in Aramaic and translate for us. Why translate something for an Aramaic audience if it was written in Aramaic. The Greek shows profound influence of likely Aramaic expressions that make more sense if read literally in Aramaic.... however. That’s why some people argue for Aramaic. I wouldn’t worry about it too much. Some NT writers quote directly from the Septuagint. They did use translations and did not always tell us. They were likely multilingual.
@neill392
@neill392 5 жыл бұрын
The gospels were not only written in greek, they authored by writers with little knowledge or understanding f the geography laws or culture of the "holy land" other than what they could pick up from the Hebrew bible.
@mrtee3988
@mrtee3988 7 жыл бұрын
NT is obviously preserved praise God.
@jimchumley6568
@jimchumley6568 7 жыл бұрын
Mr tee Wise and true comment!
@borneandayak6725
@borneandayak6725 7 жыл бұрын
Amen...
@christofinb
@christofinb 9 жыл бұрын
I just question if it takes a life time of work painstakingly fudging through manuscripts evaluating and then determining (if at all possible if these were what we could say were close to the originals) we still might not get to the bottom of it all and evaluating whether Christian religion can have any credibility on paper anyway (excuse the non intentional pun) it is a confusing mess, the best way is to remain agnostic about Christianity and just be humble enough to say 'we don't know', either that or give in and play pascals wager.
@sbushido5547
@sbushido5547 9 жыл бұрын
In order for something like Pascal's Wager to be even slightly compelling, you'd have to have sufficient reason to believe that the possibility of this one particular god's existence is worth considering in the first place (given all the other gods we dismiss out of hand as myth). Which, I think, is a big part of the reason the reliability of biblical texts is such a big deal to the religious. If they can demonstrate that the bible is somehow different than all the other ancient works whose fantastical tales they ignore, then maybe they've bet their money on the right horse after-all.
@christofinb
@christofinb 9 жыл бұрын
Scott Bowser Hi, yes I know only to well what you are saying. However I believe I was never 'conditioned' by cultural influences to believe the Christian doctrine (I was a Budhist before I got converted to Christianity) and when I read the bible (the letters in particular) I just *didn't* want to believe them, as I was looking for flaws in its writings and any way out of not believing the stuff it claimed, I also didn't like what it was saying but somehow it convicted me and made me feel uncomfortable until I accepted it. Please bare in mind I am not a believer as such anymore I am agnostic/atheist but some things within the Christian doctrine seem humbling to make you believe it, unlike anything I've ever read and I don't know if any other religious writings could do that.
@jamesdaniel1376
@jamesdaniel1376 5 жыл бұрын
Except for the historical accuracy of the text. Archaeology has verified a significant part of both Testaments historically and geographically. Luke's writings in Acts have been proven factual in identifying the details of the cities and even gets the titles of the officials in those cities correct. That lends significant credibility to Luke's investigation and recording of the facts in the Gospel he wrote. Which then carries over to Matthew and Mark who agree in many of the details with Luke.
@SUPER_BOUY
@SUPER_BOUY 5 жыл бұрын
Dr. Ehrman you are wrong when you said that we can't know what the original was... what we have now is passed down traditionally through generations and that is infact evidence of preservation. Just because you don't have the same sources of manuscripts now doesn't mean Christians at the 1st, 2nd or 3rd century didn't had the accurate source of manuscripts back then... that's why we have what we call a traditional canonical books before the council decided what are canon books because what we have now are already widely accepted books written by the apostles or disciples of the apostles. Mr Ehrman you have a moral problem with God and that's the problem with you really.
@robbielee2148
@robbielee2148 4 жыл бұрын
Not a biblical scholar myself but as an audio engineer I can say this debate is horribly done. Doubt the debate did not have any funds, unreal no one had the knowledge to correct the ground issue.
@Johnnisjohnnis
@Johnnisjohnnis 9 жыл бұрын
Daniel Wallace does not need, or try to present any evidence for his case. He only argues for the probability of the original texts not being lost forever. But this is all he needs to do. He does not need knowledge of the original texts, only the probability that the original words are somewhere among the variants we have, (and or any yet undiscovered ancient text,) and the possibility that we in the future may learn to recognize which of the variants are original. He does not need knowledge, all he need is a gap.
@epiphanydrums5427
@epiphanydrums5427 3 жыл бұрын
Final comments of the evening were Erhman sticking to the accepted disciplines of scholarship and Wallace statement of fear if we don’t preserve orthodoxy’s end goal. Inerrancy flew out the window without fanfare or even realization by its proponents. Postscript: What ever happened to those mystery manuscripts that Wallace was sworn to secrecy about? I think I’ll research that, it’s been at least 6 years at this writing. Perhaps there’s been some progress? Edit: Update Report and Epilogue: THIS JUST IN! Dan Wallace looks for new “Hobby”. Donald Duck implicated for date tampering after all...🤣
@mypuritanicalopinion3332
@mypuritanicalopinion3332 7 жыл бұрын
Bible disbelievers are easily refuted by their attitude. It's that simple.
@Mansandanfan4335
@Mansandanfan4335 7 жыл бұрын
My Puritanical Opinion That is the worse logic I've ever heard.
@jimchumley6568
@jimchumley6568 7 жыл бұрын
My Puritanical Opinion Wise and true comment!
@noah7477
@noah7477 6 жыл бұрын
@@Mansandanfan4335 well xtians are emotional so what do you expect?
@steelframer
@steelframer 6 жыл бұрын
According to Bart’s standard thier is nothing from ancient history that we can know. I doubt any historians take him seriously
@neill392
@neill392 5 жыл бұрын
Now here's the nub of the issue, it doesn't matter whether Socrates existed or that we have no copies of anything he wrote, socratic philosophy still works. It doesn't matter if Pythagerus is an invention, the square on the hypotenuous is still equal to the squares on the other 2 sides. But when you are claiming to know the words of a "god" and to have a personal relationship with him/her, you have to be held to a higher standard of proof. The fact is, many of the characters of the ancient world and their writings are constructs, and their very existence subject to doubt.
@marymckinney4472
@marymckinney4472 4 жыл бұрын
If Dr. Bart Ehrman's case of the origal text being nowhere near what we have today, then why aren't the four Gospels radically different?
@tadm123
@tadm123 7 жыл бұрын
Wallace won this one
@borneandayak6725
@borneandayak6725 7 жыл бұрын
Agree, Wallace slaps his mouth....
@tigistyiheyis5737
@tigistyiheyis5737 4 жыл бұрын
Yess
@christofinb
@christofinb 9 жыл бұрын
Somebody wrote a reply to my previous comment about we might as well play 'pascals wager'.I got some of your reply through notification of it but it didn't show up on here, shame really I think you made a lot of sense but I couldn't read all of it, allthough I got the jist as I've heard of the arguement before.My reply is that when read alone without any inference the new Testament paticularly 'the letters' seem very compelling. Just saying from my experience
@Jan_von_Gratschoff
@Jan_von_Gratschoff 5 жыл бұрын
"From Dallas Theological Seminary". That should automatically disqualify anyone from an objective debate concerning the bible.
@hughlehman428
@hughlehman428 4 жыл бұрын
By your logic, Einstein could not have an objective opinion of relativity since he was subject to the force of gravity. Your post-modern nihilism is showing.
@substratic11213
@substratic11213 4 жыл бұрын
What a gross stereotypical generalization. You sound like you get your opinions from Family Guy
@infectedpriest9174
@infectedpriest9174 4 жыл бұрын
Had to stop watching, the sound quality is terrible.
@dookdawg214
@dookdawg214 7 жыл бұрын
Mr. Ehrman, I'm a big fan -- have read five of your books and watched a lot of your lectures -- but I've got to tell you... you're really overly repetitive when you explain things. I'm at 22:15 and I've just listened to you repeat the same single point over and over for about five straight minutes. We get it: 2 Corinthians is several letters -- all of them dictated by Paul and recopied and modified over centuries.
@rayober2273
@rayober2273 6 жыл бұрын
What are some specific changes?
@I-Need-Saving
@I-Need-Saving 4 жыл бұрын
If we don’t have the originals, how do we determine when the gospels were actually written? Lots of people like to say 50-90AD. But if the first copy of Mark was discovered 130AD, how can we find out accurately when the originals were written?
@drguitar2585
@drguitar2585 4 жыл бұрын
are just opinions, of men with faith and paid for that
@biguzinho1447
@biguzinho1447 4 жыл бұрын
No sound.
@SUPER_BOUY
@SUPER_BOUY 5 жыл бұрын
This guy is just making money out of his assertions can any other scholar put his work in scrutiny?
@milesrudduck1040
@milesrudduck1040 4 жыл бұрын
The sound is wrecked
@PLANETEv-sl7sy
@PLANETEv-sl7sy 4 жыл бұрын
HOLES EVERYWHERE....ENTYRELY IN ALL OF THE TEXTS
@rguil15
@rguil15 6 жыл бұрын
Why can't the moderator read?
@almo318
@almo318 6 жыл бұрын
First! you have to believe in a GOD or GODS and if you do then you had better start from scratch in your beliefs, good luck because you will find that GODS and religion are myths that the world really needs and always will.........A fact of life........
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