When Is a Christian Not A Christian?

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Why do so many Christians claim that other Christians are not really Christians? Is there a definition written in the sky somewhere? Here we talk about the history of the problem, from its very beginning. Among other things we'll discuss why some biblical scholars today refuse to use the word "Christian" for the apostle Paul, the members of his churches, and for followers of Jesus in the first century altogether; and we'll ask whether there is something about "Christianity" in particular that leads to debates about what it actually means; and we'll try to work out if there's any satisfactory answer to the questions: "Is it possible to define the term to everyone's satisfaction?" and "Does it matter?"
Megan asks Bart:
Why is this an important subject of discussion?
Can historians say when “Christian” really became a religious identity?
How would these people have self-identified? If you asked one of Paul’s converts, what would they have said?
When does the term “Christian” start to come into common usage?
If you asked members of different Christian groups what it meant to be Christian, would they have given different answers? What would a Gnostic have said, in comparison to a follower of Marcion? Would they all have identified themselves as Christian?
When do we first see arguments about what constitutes a “real” Christian?
This kind of in-fighting doesn’t seem to have been a feature of pre-Christian religions. What is it about Christianity that has created this idea of “one right way” to follow a god?
Is this exclusivity something that we see in the teachings of Jesus?
What did Jesus say about how he wanted his followers to behave?
Do any of these ethical teachings seem to have any bearing on how Christians define and have defined themselves?
How has what it means to be a Christian changed over the centuries? Would a modern evangelical be recognized as a Christian by the early Church fathers?
What do you think it means to be a Christian, and does what you think now differ from when you were an evangelical?

[@RobertH1971]

I believe Nietzsche said something along the lines of: “there has only been one Christian, and they crucified him.”

[@MichelleDavis-xk8rc]

He was a jew.

[@DrVictorVasconcelos]

Funny enough, he may never have been one at all.

[@PeterSchmuttermaier]

​@@DrVictorVasconcelos depending on the definition of the word...

[@mrmorpheus9707]

Makes no sense...if he is christ! Smh

[@lynwood77]

@@jttj742 The Roman rulers who executed people for insurrection on the regular for hundreds of years. Are you actually this ignorant?

[@milowadlin]

I am an atheist, but there are times that I think I am more of a Christian than many who believe themselves to be Christian. I think he said a number of wise things, and told some thought provoking parables. I hope I have filled my life with good works, though I don't expect any heavenly rewards as a result.

[@HisMessenger-wf5qd]

Have you submitted your life to Him?

[@kalords5967]

​@@HisMessenger-wf5qdHow do you submit your life to someone who doesn't exist?

[@FatherGapon-gw6yo]

You’re delusional

[@milowadlin]

@@HisMessenger-wf5qd Why would I do that? Should I submit my life to Einstein or Gandhi too?

[@PaulT65567]

Not to proselytize, but you're so close. You don't have to accept that God can be proved through reason or empiricism to be a Christian. Embrace the subjective. Embrace the fact that you are made in the image of God.

[@emark8928]

From the great religious philosopher, Emo Philips: Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, “Don’t do it!” He said, “Nobody loves me.” I said, “God loves you. Do you believe in God?” He said, “Yes.” I said, “Are you a Christian or a Jew?” He said, “A Christian.” I said, “Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?” He said, “Protestant.” I said, “Me, too! What franchise?” He said, “Baptist.” I said, “Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?” He said, “Northern Baptist.” I said, “Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?” He said, “Northern Conservative Baptist.” I said, “Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?” He said, “Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region.” I said, “Me, too!” "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?” He said, “Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912.” I said, “Die, heretic!” And I pushed him over.

[@User_pr3uLn5jzk]

Ask a non-believer this question "When Is a Christian Not A Christian?" Must be a Joke!

[@Duiker36]

I don't know how I'm still not tired of this story even though I've been laughing at it for well over a decade.

[@emark8928]

@@User_pr3uLn5jzk Good jokes offer profound reflections on society. This one illustrates the video's content beautifully, imo.

[@emark8928]

But also, my first thought when I saw the headline was, "...When it turns into a driveway?"

[@johnbishop2611]

@emark8928 most churches do not teach the whole consel of God people like to just take one verse and create a God they can live with its called antichrist the Bible is its own interpreter its own dictionary and comintary.

[@davidvernon3119]

There used to be a joke in Christian circles in Texas back in the day. “Wanna make sure all of your Beer gets drunk at the party? Invite one Baptist. Want to make sure that none gets drunk? Invite two

[@autumnonawhim]

Is the joke that Baptists are scared to drink around each other?

[@floccinaucinihilipilifications]

😂

[@FaithIsNotEvidence]

The TRUE Christian statement has always bothered me when I was a believer. Now that I am free of that belief system it is clear to be just a good person who treats other with honesty and respect. It feels so much more sincere living this way.😊

[@alanhilder1883]

But that isn't how "christians" act.

[@MrBadway_636]

100%

[@areuaware6842]

"True Christian" is an oxymoron because Christianity is a lie.

[@uberdonkey9721]

I agree, but in modern society it is very easy to be warped. Is it good to kill bad people? Many people who consider themselves good would say yes, but Christians would say no. Indeed, Christians believe in a spiritual and not material life i.e. our lives (and others lives) are less important than our spirit/values. I think we do have to refine our own values, but it takes time.

[@baldeagle-cq2jl]

Always love learning from Prof.Ehrman and hearing his views." Christian Atheist" ah,new term I can use.🙂

[@russellmiles2861]

In Australia a survey of parishioners of all major denominations had 4 out 5 respond they did not believe in a personal god, and 1:5 didn't believe in a god. There are probably far more non-believing Christians than you imagine and few believe that Jesus was more than mythical. Mind you, the great majority of us are indifferent to the God/not god thing. We just don't care. I suspect that bothers theist and atheist more than anything else. 😅

[@mushroom_thrillers]

Megan Lewis does an amazing job of teeing up questions that are open-ended and lets Bart take things interesting directions.

[@zapkvr]

It's a real joy for me to hear Bart. He has an ability to get to the very core of what it maens to be a christian based on the very earliest traditions. He is able to seprate out the power and the politics which is crucial in understanding how the survival of Christianity is an expression of our humanity in the way most of the ancient religions seek to express the same ideas.

[@rebella5769]

This is always so much fun. I look forward to each and every one. Thank you for this weekly gift.

[@robbabcock_]

I never get tired of spending an hour with Emma and Bart!

[@Arven8]

Megan...

[@Wertbag99]

I've heard so many criteria put forward as being required to be a "true Christian", some say it was all about baptism, others that its belief in the trinity, some say it's following the bible or following the right version in the right manner, perhaps its belonging to the right denomination or others say it's those who are "born again" or only those who claim a relationship with God. It's all very subjective, with people putting value on different doctrines over others based mostly on what they've been taught. There are so many versions of Christianity that the term can only be used as an umbrella term for all believers in the bible, Jesus and God. Someone saying they are Christian tells you very little about their beliefs or values.

[@Duiker36]

But they *are* telling you that it's important to them that you know they are a Christian. And sometimes that's the entire message they're trying to convey.

[@dickbacon7794]

All that should be understood is that Jesus said to remember the two greatest commandments.

[@potiphajerenyenje6870]

JWs say you need to belong to their church and preach regularly enough and use the name Jehovah every time and above all, do everything their governing body tells you even if they ‘don’t appear good or strategic from a human point of view’

[@dickbacon7794]

@@potiphajerenyenje6870 exactly

[@GldnClaw]

All I know is that the club of "not Christian" has been used against me and my beliefs since I was a child by every self-proclaimed "Christian" sect. It always baffled me because it was right there in the name: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

[@bmt-zo1ue]

I increasingly feel like Evangelicals treat 'being a Christian' like being invited into a private exclusive country club. Just recite the oath (the prayer) - and there you are. You're in. Still trying to work out at what point do you get kicked out!!!

[@ABARANOWSKISKI]

When I used to be a Christian, a long time ago, I had very clear, definitive views on what it meant to be a "Christian". Now, I've been an atheist for years, and I just don't care anymore. If someone tells me they are a Christian, I tend to just take them at their word, I'm not in the business anymore of deciding who is, and who is not, a Christian. I consider myself to be a Christian atheist, too, in the same sense that Bart said he's a Christian atheist. Sometimes, I feel that I act more "Christian" now as an atheist than I ever did when I was a Christian, a long time ago. I will always be an atheist, but I do feel a sort of nostalgia for Christianity. Perhaps that is why I watch and listen to so much stuff that has to do with Christianity. Like listening to the Bart Ehrman Podcast ☺️

[@adamcruz1407]

Dr. Ehrman, you have no idea how much I appreciate all your work. I am a man of faith and always will be, but your books and talks opens my mind so much. Thank you!

[@johnmeadow1426]

I would say denying the Christianity of other Christians is one of the most Christian things you can do.

[@Reznovmp40]

Barts laugh is so contagious it puts a smile on my face every time 😂

[@joshmeyers372]

I’m a personal trainer. I practice fitness, I study it, I believe the principles work. But do I know everything there is to know about fitness? Of course not. There’s never a completeness of knowledge that any one or group of people have. Same applies to religion or any domain. There’s never been a complete understanding of a full theology of any religion at any time.

[@uberdonkey9721]

true, but I would guess that you are more or less satisfied with your fitness level and you don't feel fat. Similarly, while religion/spiritual practice may be a path, we can feel a sense of satisfaction with where we are.. the difference between being lost, or heading in a certain direction while still discovering new things.

[@John.Flower.Productions]

_This kind of in-fighting doesn’t seem to have been a feature of pre-Christian religions._ Surely, ancient (pre-Christian) _Judaism_ constitutes a religion.

[@montagdp]

Agreed. Even if you just had the Gospels, you'd have a good idea that there was a lot of in-fighting between the Pharisees, Sadducees, and the people who followed John and Jesus (probably related to the Essenes).

[@moshezadka8414]

Nobody remember the zealots... 😢

[@vhawk1951kl]

Iappreciate that you cannot define religion but give it a try

[@kahlilbt]

I think that conflict was more ethnic than ideological

[@areuaware6842]

Really?

[@kosefix]

May I suggest audiobooks Meghan? You can do two things at the same time.

[@PeterSchmuttermaier]

Do you think the concept of an audio book is new to her?

[@kosefix]

@@PeterSchmuttermaier No. But I'm saying audiobooks are a viable substitution. I'm recommending it. Same way I would recommend for example the lord of the rings films to a person who know they exist but I'm not sure they've watched them.

[@PeterSchmuttermaier]

@@kosefix Not the same. There is a real chance that somebody didn't watch the LOTR movies by now, and your argument would work if you recommended a certain audiobook. But recommending audiobooks in general to an educated person of the 21st century is like recommending an umbrella to somebody who looks up to the sky and says "Oh, it's getting cloudy."

[@jennifersilves4195]

​@@PeterSchmuttermaier Sometimes we need reminded.

[@roderickladson1292]

Awesome and informative show!

[@confutatismaledictis7599]

I’m sure many have noted this, but Megan’s outfits, makeup, and frames are always so nicely well-coordinated. I’m always taking style notes lol.

[@russellmiles2861]

Professor Erhnan has always been a very refined dresser. They are in the public media. What would you expect them to dress like!

[@joshuapray]

She is indeed pretty cool.

[@confutatismaledictis7599]

@@russellmiles2861 Oh no, I didn’t mean to imply a comparison. Yes, Bart is a very stylish person, also. I especially like his unique round frames. And of course, both are immanent scholars with a media presence. But on an entirely different level, I just like pointing out good style. Not everyone in the public eye possesses it, God knows. Cheers :)

[@joknaepkens]

On my neighborhood fb page there often people, who are new to the area, asking for 'a good church, denomination doesn't matter'. That about says it all imo., considering most of them state you will go to hell if you choose the 'wrong one'. When people tell me about the bible I always ask: which one? 😂

[@AdiBuddhi]

I was taught that in the eyes of the Lord everybody is equal, but it comes as no surprise that the chosen ones have a different belief.

[@russellmiles2861]

Well perhaps not the Amalek.

[@alanhilder1883]

But some are more equal than others.

[@giovangciccareli1829]

When they are American Evangelical. They wouldn't know Christ if they sat on him.

[@alanhilder1883]

They would be "moving him on", this 'dirty man of middle eastern appearance'.

[@justinfleming5119]

Evangelicals are basically the inverse of Messianic Jews.

[@Wally-w2r]

💯% cults

[@dlynn101]

Jesus was at odds with the religous establishment. He blamed the Pharisees for the spiritual failures in humanity. Your average "Christian" is too busy doing it wrong to realize this. You don't HAVE to respect a person because they consider themselves an "evangelical". if anything, they're ones who most have to prove theselves worthy.

[@fr57ujf]

“Religion is an insult to human dignity. Without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.” ― Steven Weinberg

[@halzbog1180]

Hey Bart i hope you see this. An individual on reddit mentioned this thought randomly and I had never considered it before. Thought it might be an interesting line of thought to explore if you ever run out of content ideas etc. SUMMARY: (Does the idea of a spirit possessing a body determine one's gender or identity?) "Jesus cast devils out of a man into a whole herd of pigs. Some pigs were undoubtedly male and some pigs were female. So not only is gender not important, neither is species or number when it comes to spirits entering bodies." Fascinating thought for sure.

[@Nero-Caesar]

Many Christians need to hear this but sadly won't

[@zapkvr]

Well, people who call themselves christian

[@A.I.Silicate]

Christians tents to be willfully blind and stick to their echo chambers. Broader perspectives are threatening to their blind faith.

[@josephseneca4090]

He is wrong about the early church being confused about the content of the faith. There was from the beginning what later became known as the Catholic Church.

[@ruthbentley2090]

I’m a believer in Christ the Messiah, and I’m listening.

[@Nero-Caesar]

@@ruthbentley2090 awesome

[@keithquinton]

The most sincere and simple life has been to follow Jesus and let him guide me. I came expecting to hear like when I asked my Christian aunt what Jesus said about what I just asked and she said I don't understand.

[@TerryJLaRue]

Bart is using a computer background. Until the technology gets better, I wish people wouldn't use it. The edge distortions are distracting.

[@Gruso57]

Nietzsche's Joyous Science is one of my favorites. The man truly was a genius. And yes, I am aware of the faults.

[@michelmontreuil9839]

Off topic question. Is the background on Bart's screen the library in the last episode of the "Ascent of Man" by Jacob Bronowski?

[@michaeltelson9798]

Bishop John Shelby Spong was very controversial as the first Episcopal Bishop to ordain women and gays. He has several lectures that you can find on KZbin at the Chautauqua site. I grew up in his diocese and had met him. He was very influential to my growth in religious studies. He passed away about a year ago.

[@russellmiles2861]

oh, in Melbourne Australia, the Uniting Church had a woman in an openly same sex relationship as a Moderator (akin to bishop) in the 1980s, and no one cared. Bishop John Shelby Spong was a late comer in this matter.

[@michaeltelson9798]

@@russellmiles2861 You should look into it, Bishop Spong did that in the 1970’s. In Australia a bishop in one state banned him and another bishop in another state welcomed him.

[@justinfleming5119]

Gays should be marginalized on the same secular basis that we marginalize drunks and coprophiliacs.

[@seamusobrien2675]

Interestingly I have independently come to BDE's position. I have studied (formally) for many years Christianity and Jesus. Jesus before becoming Christ is the one who fascinates me. Wise, but not always right or perfect in understanding or behaviour. Imperfect Jesus, jew from the bush, simple person with complex ideas. I would very much like to meet him. The Christ is manufactured from the clay of Jesus. The pot once thrown, fired and decorated is not the same in essence, likeness or function as the clay.

[@FraterMerovius]

Well said.

[@Bhadradd]

Well defined and expressed. Love it👍

[@ThePeaceableKingdom]

I hesitate to correct Bart Ehrman, but from one Bart to another, there were certainly disagreements about the gods of the Hellenes. Was Selene the mother of Dionysus in Thebes? Or was he born of Zeus in Crete? There were of course those who tried to harmonize the myths in the same way some try to harmonize the gospels. What the Hellenes didn't do was try to condemn those who had a different myth for Dionysus, Aphrodite, etc.. They seemed happy to say, "Well, over in Crete they think such-and-such, bless their little hearts, but we know better."

[@johnt3929]

Not really the same as the theological disputes of Abrahamic religions. They had different versions of similar myths, but what you believed about the gods or their stories didn’t really matter. What mattered was whether you offered them sacrifices, did it correctly, paid them proper respect, and went about your worship of them properly. In religions that feature orthodoxy, which most religions throughout history were not, what you believe about the gods or God does matter and has profound implications.

[@ThePeaceableKingdom]

@@johnt3929 Exactly! Precisely. In paganism what you believed about the gods was your business. The important thing was to perform the rituals, especially for the gods of the state, whatever your beliefs, speculations, opinions or thoughts. That's why Socrates could be accused of atheism but also of introducing new gods.

[@Fair-to-Middling]

Megan, it's hard to believe you have a senior in high School. I thought you were in your 20's! 😊

[@justneoh8253]

Her stepchildren, her husband's children from previous marriage.

[@markadams7046]

I've always been annoyed by the people who say if you were a Christian and are now no longer a Christian then you were never a Christian to begin with.

[@he1ar1]

Even if I have stopped self identifying myself a Christian, on some level I still am. I still learn about the teachings of Jesus.

[@BunnyWatson-k1w]

Yes. They will say you never had a true testimony of Jesus and His gospel. In fact you did have a strong testimony but left for other reasons.

[@elainafaust3717]

Just one of the appallingly arrogant things Christians regularly get away with saying.

[@juanausensi499]

It's a defense mechanism. They sell 100% certainty, so every existing ex-christian proves they can't deliver.

[@MrBadway_636]

I call them blabbers🥲...I know for a fact that if I and a blabber were to enter a biblical exam, I would win. I've realized that people fall to religion for 2 reasons; #1. Because they cannot read. #2. Because they have no knowledge of the ancient world. They don't know greek mythology, nor sumerian mythology, etc, nothing at all...many of them solely believe that because they grew up in these religions therefore it is true💁

[@GabrielEddy]

This was one of Bart’s best podcasts to date.

[@jamiefaucett7216]

I'm curious what y'all think about Markus Vinzent's work on Marcion? Very interesting that Marcion might have very well had the first "cannon"

[@trilithon108]

Bart has a light on and sometimes above his head in this one 😇

[@Bronco541]

Ooh that was quite a cliffhanger for next week!

[@jeremiahrajanesan829]

Great question and Answers ,especially at 27.33

[@LuisRivera-vf9pk]

Talk about No True Scotsman fallacy.

[@BenChaverin]

Just curious... is this actually a podcast or just Bart being asked questions?

[@jamesmason5664]

Ive Always loved Bart [ a Brilliant Analyst/Scholar/Professor....And now I'm Completely in Love ❤️ with Megan too💗💖💝 U guys are the Greatest Teachers making it Fun and interesting Enlightening our World to Truth and Light💚😇🙏🌎🧘‍♂️May the Force Always Be With You!!!

[@hereigoagain5050]

I was comforted by reading in Genesis that the Covenant was between God and the descendants of Abraham. My peeps were causing mayhem in Europe at the time, so I'm not Chosen. So happy!

[@autumntheraven]

Megan! You're rocking the plat blonde!! 🔥🔥🔥

[@mystic627]

Jesus was more concerned with a person's change of mind. A new perception based on the spiritual truth. A change of heart that would lead to a change of character and behavior.

[@dannyguillory8941]

Absolutely, I came across Nietzsche as a teenager but never delved into his thought. It wasn't until many years later that I started to understand his genius.

[@AZ-hd2uz]

As a Muslim, I love your shows and watch them regularly . Please, Where can I send my question? Is there an email I can send them to? I do not have any social media networks. Thanks

[@brucewilson3619]

Weird seeing Megan without really funky hair and glasses.

[@welcometonebalia]

Thank you.

[@ginasrsen]

Love that stone fireplace Bart.

[@V.D.22]

Bart laughs at the thought of early Christians seeing modern Christians calling themselves Christians. Boy what a podcast this would be 😊

[@nathanaelsmith3553]

My father is very religious. I pointed out that he hadnt sold all his possessions and given the money to the poor. He said "Ah yes but Jesus only ever said that to just one person".

[@morningSTARranch]

Apologists will dance around that passage but the early christians absolutely believed you not only needed to fulfill the heart of the law, but to achieve the resurrection you also needed to take the extra step of not working for money and not serving personal possessions.

[@zapkvr]

@@morningSTARranch The early christians didnt believe any such thing. The Copts, the earliest Christians are proof of this.

[@PhilSophia-ox7ep]

​@@zapkvr I wouldn't say Christians universally agreed to that principle, but some certainly did.

[@SojourningOnline]

@@zapkvr Earlier than Peter, James and the Church in Jerusalem? Earlier than Paul and his churches?

[@travisdiveley1652]

​@@morningSTARranch. "Paul" should have followed & taught that one!

[@MatthewQuigley]

Best hairdo ever! Most elegant glasses ever!

[@GldnClaw]

Bart has certainly got it going on.

[@Arven8]

I had to wrestle with this question on my way out, too. I drew the line approximately where the Apostles' or Nicene Creed are. I think that if you believe most of what is in those creeds, you're a Christian, and if you don't, you aren't. I got that notion from a liberal Christian philosopher who is a staunch defender of progressive Christianity. I figured if a liberal progressive Christian drew the line there, it would be good enough to constitute a bare minimum for most Christians, and so good enough of a standard for me to use. I am not interested in imposing my definition on anyone else, but I needed to have a definition for myself, so that I knew whether I could call myself a Christian or not.

[@MilkmanNorm]

When it's a jar!

[@paulonius42]

😂😂

[@carolmorrow4095]

Paul''s "Christian" teaching was really "Judaism light," Judaism for gentiles.

[@christiangraulau8107]

In some ways, but he also helped pave the path for it to become more than that

[@pdyt2009]

No. Paul specifically wrote against any form of Judaism being imposed on Jesus' followers.

[@areuaware6842]

@@pdyt2009 , Then they bound the teachings of Jesus to the Hebrew Scriptures. LOL

[@elainegoad9777]

Paul used Roman and Greek mythologies to blend into Judaism to create Christianity (really Paulianity which morphed into Emperor Constintine's Roman Church and "Holy Roman Empire" LOL

[@carolmorrow4095]

@@elainegoad9777 Very clever, "Paulianity." I will use it without accreditation. Not Constantine's "Roman" church, of course, but his small "c" catholic one. In the Greek Orthodox mass today, the priest still prays for the small "c" "catholic" church meaning "universal" in Greek and further meaning and referring to the pre-schism unified church of the unified Empire. No need to rush any change in the Orthodox Church where two thousand years is simply a long weekend. Language, and political power, being what it is, fascinating to see that "orthodox (adjective) Jews" have become "Orthodox" (noun) Jews," a head-spinning concept as all religious things are.

[@ruthbentley2090]

I’m interested to know if Bart has studied Rudolf Steiner’s thoughts/insights into the nature of humanity’s evolution of consciousness?

[@Arven8]

Doubt it. I don't think Bart is into the more esoteric stuff.

[@ruthbentley2090]

That’s a pity…🦘

[@bensinclair8684]

How about the Natsarim. Would that be the name of a first century aka Christian / Yahusha follower?

[@magister343]

Does the term Christain appear in the New Testament, or is it the term Chrestian? The oldest manuscripts use an eta, not an iota. Many patristic writers note that non-Christains tend to get the name wrong and refer to Jesus ad Chrestos ('Good') instead of Christos ('Anointed') and the Christians as Chrestianoi instead of Christianoi.

[@KravMagoo]

Didn't see a place to add the promo code. 😭

[@TheColonelKlink]

Depending on the chosen point of view we are all in one form or another unsaved, apostates or heretics.

[@zapkvr]

Well that's not true. You cant be apostate if you never really believed it in the first place. And apostate is someone who has rejected the faith.

[@TheColonelKlink]

@@zapkvr I was addressing how all might be viewed. Believers and non believers.

[@rickn8or]

"Going to Hell in every religion."

[@islandofmisfityoutubers6734]

Hell is hell

[@areuaware6842]

Jesus was a heretic.

[@foxyshabazz]

When I was at school we spent a day canvassing people on the street in our local town, asking them what their religion was (basically so we could make graphs of the results later). One response was 'I'm Catholic, but not a Roman Catholic' which confused me at the time and still does. What did they mean? A High Church Anglican or something else?

[@PhilSophia-ox7ep]

There's a variety of Christian sects that claim the title Catholic though not affiliated with the Catholic Church in Rome. 99% of the time in common usage 'Catholic' refers to the latter, but not always.

[@foxyshabazz]

@@PhilSophia-ox7ep Thanks. I just did a Google search and discovered the concept of Independent Catholicism, which I must admit is a whole thing I never heard of before. Very interesting. :)

[@معرفةوترفيه-ت2ظ]

​​@@foxyshabazz I think it's more likely they were Eastern Catholics following a non-Latin rite (like Maronites, Melikites, Chaldeans, Syriac Catholics, Armenian Catholics, and many among Ukrainians, Rusyns, Hungarians, Belarusians ...)

[@foxyshabazz]

@@معرفةوترفيه-ت2ظ Maybe, but the person seemed very English. Not sure any of those communities have any kind of presence in the town we did the survey, but I guess it's possible.

[@mankdeems251]

I'd be interested in an overview of the heretics, including Pelagius

[@glennavants5655]

I wrestled with this very conundrum today when I saw a placard on a light pole that read: 1 Timothy 1:15 Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners. It made me pause and think, No where does the Bible say Christ came to save Christians; therefore, if He came to save me then I must be a sinner not a Christian. So there it is, according to the Bible I am not a Christian, I am a sinner.

[@Duiker36]

I mean, if you finish the sentence, Paul is describing himself as a sinner.

[@davidwillmore]

"All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." Seems to fill in that gap.

[@jennifersilves4195]

Christians are sinners...

[@parlormusic1885]

As an atheist I read Machen’s “Christianity and Liberalism.” He was arguing against a change in the American Christian church in the 1920’s and 30’s that shifted from emphasizing Christ’s sacrifice on the cross to Christ as a moral model. He convinced me that he was correct to say that the Christianity that I grew up with wasn’t in fact true Christianity. Anyway, I came to realize that if you progressively skipped back a hundred years to the year 30 each version of Christianity would be unrecognizable to the previous century. Religion is a cultural artifact, nothing more. Like tastes in dress and music each generation varies it for its own reasons. Does this conflict with the idea that there is an actual supernatural being behind it all? You bet, but it’s interesting nonetheless.

[@MorrisMills]

Its Intresting that you say Paul Thought the end coming in his life time? My question to did you believe that he did come , did the end Come?

[@richiezed]

In response to the episode title I would say usually.

[@joecahill1994]

Damn Bart, I never would’ve guessed that was your age. I hope I look as good and am as sharp as you when I’m 68!

[@Arven8]

Yeah, he's got a lot of energy for 68. I'm 62 and I couldn't keep up his pace.

[@Dalekzilla]

I took religious vows many years ago, and just a few years later totally rejected ALL denominations. I try to the best "Christian" I can be, but the fact is, other than perhaps Unitarians, most Christians wouldn't consider me a Christian at all. My ultimate response is, Christ was given ALL judgment, so in the end it is Christ alone who will get to decide who is a true Christian and who isn't. But I will say that I think it unlikely that He will find those who identify as Christians, but either ignore or mistreat the poor and needy ( which includes the homeless and migrants), or delight in using The Bible as a weapon (judging others viciously when they themselves are not without sin), or supporting the wealthy and powerful in spite of what Christ was supposed to have said about the rich, or indulging in bigotry and racism......to be actual sheep of His flock. Still, that is up to Him to decide...

[@GldnClaw]

"by their fruits ye shall know them" is reasonable. Have you considered the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

[@nylaway7170]

In all honesty, Yes! Please give us a Nietzsche episode! I think he accurately diagnosed slave morality inadvertently anticipating Wokeness in the process and how there’ll be a need and an attempt to fill the God-shaped hole in western civilization.

[@learningisfun2108]

I would not agree that: (1) loving your neighbour (2) helping others in need (3) caring for the poor …. are “special” Christian teachings or Jesus’ teachings, in the sense that these ideals predate Christianity my millennia. These are human values that arose from our social nature. They were adopted by leaders and “rebranded”. Here’s a metaphor: I teach my students calculus and tell them it is “my math”.

[@Arven8]

I agree, although I didn't hear Bart say that Jesus's teachings were unique. I assume Bart is aware that Jesus was drawing those lessons from Judaism, from the Torah (e.g., Deuteronomy), which predates him by thousands of years. And they do appear in other religions as well.

[@captaincatchy]

I so agree.

[@UsesElevators]

Video starts-ish at 5:38

[@HAFaber]

"Do His will and you will know the doctrine."

[@gazzas123]

I have a question in Luke it says that Jesus ascended into heaven and sat at the right hand of god. So where is heaven? Did Jesus just rise of the ground and go up into the sky and how did Luke or anyone else know where Jesus sat?

[@russellmiles2861]

Above the Moon below the Sky: duh!

[@Arven8]

It's just myth. Noble figures were sometimes said to rise into heaven, be adopted as God's son, and so forth. Read Ehrman's book, How Jesus Became God for more understanding.

[@sohu86x]

I converted to Christianity about 15 years ago, was "called to ministry" and subsequently went on to earn three postgraduate degrees including a MDiv and PhD. During my studies I served the church through preaching, but I have become an atheist in the past few years due to my studies. I consider myself an atheist Christian and sometimes, anti-Christian Christian. I have increasingly come to the conclusion that Christianity as a source for "good human living" to be too narrow in scope. While there are some valuable bits (love your neighbor, sacrifice yourself for others, egalitarianism), I also draw from other aspects of my cultural spheres for resources in being a better human.

[@kathykonkle1097]

Man doesn't have a brain big enough to know what God is or what God wants any more than you can teach physics to an earthworm. Maybe some day we'll build a computer brain powerful enough to know but until then, anyone claiming to know what God wants us to do is a LIAR and a MANIPULATOR. You explored the subject deeply and drew a logical conclusion. I'm not an atheist either because it's equally illogical to declare there is no God when the only correct answer is "We don't know" inconclusive due to lack of evidence either way.

[@BassByRon]

Better human? What does that even mean?

[@sohu86x]

@@BassByRon you know what human means? You know what being a human means? You know what better means? Put it together, voila.

[@Ex_christian]

So, you became a professional liar for your religious lies!

[@sohu86x]

@@Ex_christian No, I am no longer a practicing Christian.

[@bobgance6872]

Bart, I think many of us have put atonement theory behind. There’s an increasing understanding that the reason for the incarnation was the incarnation itself. Emmanuel… God with us. Not God for us. And yes, we continue to crucify “the other”.

[@neptunethemystic]

A Yank living in the UK a Brit living in US together they talk about an non existent-entity for hours on end , week after week. If you'd told 8 year old me thats the kind of sh!t i d be watching as an adult i would have been so unimpressed 😅

[@teshiterobe8265]

Thanks for your reply. If Dr.Bart doesn't consider himself a Christian , why doesn't he try Islam?Islam is the religion of truth as it is mentioned in the Qur'an 3:19. Islam means submission to the will of God which exactly mentioned in James 4:7

[@Joe-fk7es]

Bart noted "Christian" was cited twice in the NT. Checking, it was cited twice in Acts and once in 1 Peter. Acts claims it started at Antioch. I recall a film about Peter and Paul with Anthony Hopkins as Paul and he at one point notes people were calling his group "Christians" now.

[@magister343]

It is a bit more complicated than that. The earlier manuscripts say Chrestianoi with an eta instead of Christianoi with an iota. Some places they spell Jesus Christ with an eta too. The two vowels were pronounced identically in some Greek dialects at the time, but the spelling does change the meaning. Chrestos with an eta means "Good" and was a much more common and better-known word than Christos with an iota that means "Anointed." Several of the earliest church fathers noted that non-Christians tended to get the name of the group wrong and call them Chrestianoi instead.

[@teshiterobe8265]

If Dr.Bart is a Christian , which Bible does he use for his belief as he said the Bible is changed ?

[@joshuapray]

He was an evangelical Christian many years ago, but now he does not consider himself a Christian.

[@Idontanswerquestions.-yf8uh]

Oh, and Bart, I don't know how you can miss quote "Jesus" I've never read any writings from (Jesus) the so-called Christ...

[@jaybavis5896]

If you believe in the book of Acts . IN Is Antioch they first was call Christian. Yet the term was use to make fin of them . The church base of the bible followers where call saints.

[@myronmason8170]

I consider myself a Christian, a very progressive Unitarian one, and I do not believe Jesus' death cleansed anyone of sin. His death was that of a martyr and a hero but it is not his death but his life and teachings that reconcile us with God.

[@russellmiles2861]

So an Ariansist - be careful. That is what Giordano Bruno was burnt at the stake for

[@myronmason8170]

@@russellmiles2861 Arius believed that Jesus was still a divine being but was just lesser than God the Father. I believe Jesus was not a divine being and was 100% human during his ministry here on Earth. He now is a divine and exalted being since his death though, but not while he was alive.

[@russellmiles2861]

@@myronmason8170 Marcionist, then

[@myronmason8170]

@russellmiles2861 I prefer psilanthropist or adoptionist.

[@areuaware6842]

He was executed for sedition.

[@johnstainbrook4186]

I need some help…what book of Nietzsche’s should I read? The Genealogy of Morals? Suggestions? Thank you all!

[@Arven8]

Twilight of the Idols, the Antichrist, or The Joyful Science would be good places to start. Each are short, accessible, and punchy. I'd avoid Thus Spake Zarathustra, which is popular but notoriously obscure (good to read later, though, if you want to). Geneology of Morals is good but more academic in tone than some of his other writing and perhaps a bit too dense to start with.

[@johnstainbrook4186]

@@Arven8 Thank you! I appreciate your suggestions!

[@sesanjoseph8805]

The story of Lazarus and the rich man clearly illustrate that Jesus thinks heir is hell where there is torture. Cos to make a parable of story means at least, the premises is something the viewers can understand. It's like the parable of the lost sower. Everyone knows someone could at least choose to be a farmer, else the parable will not be intelligible

[@russellmiles2861]

And the cool thing is that the parable in Luke because the disciple most loved in John: who is immortal. It is almost like the writers were just making up sh&t as they went along.

[@Bhadradd]

Megan is so lovely💗💗

[@terririchter2279]

stay with that look megan....you have a beautiful smile....the blue hair and over sized blue glasses doesnt allow the eye to fully embrace the beauty of you whole face

[@busyb8676]

How do you know that Jesus thought like his Jewish friends .How do you explain John 8?

[@MrDalisclock]

Bart is gonna get two types of emails from this. One from people claiming they have the proper church. The other from people quoting CS Lewis's Trilemma at Bart in response to him describing himself as a Christian Atheist as if they think he's never heard it before or is unaware of the obvious rebuttal of a fourth option.

[@benb6527]

Nietzsche cannot be problematic, he does not believe in 'The Wrong'

[@lisaschweitzer7767]

😂

[@OblateBede]

I believe in the 12 articles of the Symbolum Apostolorum. Therefore, I call myself a Christian. However, please feel free to apply whatever label you prefer. The choice of label seems irrelevant to me. And then many people say, well, the Symbolum is a 5th century Gallic invention. But, there is evidence that it goes back much further. See Suitbert Bäumer, Das Apostolische Glaubensbekenntnis.

[@StannisHarlock]

When they're rich, and or politically powerful

[@StannisHarlock]

Or whenever they act as though Jesus isn't watching as a policy.

[@LoboAtwater-o8h]

O do find truth in the New Testament but I cannot worship Titus or his father.

[@miashinbrot8388]

Repenting -- do the early Christians ever say repenting from *what*? I have the impression that at some point it came to mean repenting from ever having been conceived through sex. But how can anyone repent from something they themselves did not do, and something that they wouldn't have been alive to repent from at all if their parents hadn't done it? If that's the definition of sin, then no wonder ministers often say everyone is a sinner. But what a horrible and inescapable Catch-22. My own father (who was an atheistic Jew) managed to instill in me the horrible belief that I'm bad for needing to pee. That's perhaps even more oppressive, but not by very much.

[@RichardGeresGerbil]

Nietzsche is my favourite author and I can't fault his logic no matter how brutally honest he is.

[@ChrisSmith-xh9wb]

I hate being labelled, and avoid labelling other people I know that I was once alienated from God. I know that is no longer the case, and what changed that was the realisation that Jesus died on the cross to remove the barrier of sin that stood between us. It could have happened no other way. Does that make me a Christian? Probably, but if anyone thinks differently then I am not interested in arguing about it.

[@MultiCappie]

Doesn't Jesus himself kinda say he's the judge of who is and who isn't a Christian? It's got to be overly presumptive (at best) to be one's own judge of someone elses standards.

[@grahambell8760]

Hey Bart and Megan (sp?). Thanks for these. This Hindu calls himself a Hindu. In India, you have to state your religion in your passport. "Hindu" is the term. Or all of the different language variants. We don't get too hung up on "Hindu". As our scriptures say water is water no mater what language you use or word you use. God is God no matter what language or label you use, don't get hung up on the word - or concept. Yes, the Hindu religion started out as really no words for it. It was just "a way of life", that the writers of the Rig Veda sort of assume everybody did or was or that was a description of the world - except maybe the Adavasi - or outcasts, the native Native Indians. Retroactively it has a name, Santana Dharma or even the perennial philosophy, or Vedas or..... But then there were the schisms - Jainism and Buddhism. The Muslim invasions and then Muslim rule of India created different tax codes for different tax rates depending upon your religion so names and categories were enforced. And yes, finally, the British came in and the land around and beyond the"Indus River. became India and "Indus" became "In du" and that became Hindu. Almost every Hindu I know uses the label Hindu. The Vedas say, the word doesn't matter, the thing is the same. I've had on multiple occasions to prove I am a Hindu to the police or authorities or temple workers. They will ask for my passport (in the US religion is not in your passport), letters of introduction from a local Hindu priest or I've gone through interviews with the chief of police. Or a shout out to my reoccurring guide, Fidel Castro of Madurai India has helped. In Madurai for the Menakshee temple? Ask for Fidel Castro. Good man. Good guide.