BashBots Season 4 Episode 3 - Thunder Will Strike

the creator croga's channel - / @croga9581

[@teamgetwreckedcombatrobots776]

34:15 I know this was mostly played off as a joke but legit question: why does the arena have gaps for pulverizers but no pulverizers? Also as a side note, can we all just take a moment to appreciate how fucking swole Kermit got in between now and last season? That loss to Sparks must’ve sent Croga on a training montage or something.

[@croga9581]

the walls were repurposed from the battlebox

[@KhaoticRobotics]

That decision hurt as a Thunderwave supporter but I won’t try to act like I’m a judge. Happy to see Polis doing well.

[@killdozer7792]

Commentators: Yeah, Ryu-Keshin has clearly lost, lets talk about how it can improve after this devastating defeat. Congrats to Thunderwave. Judges: Ryu-Keshin wins! Commentators: Wait, WHAT!?

[@markwebster4692]

Was a bit confused at that thunderwave shouldve won

[@drneroli]

@@markwebster4692 Our reasoning was that Thunderwave did the damage, and won the effectiveness category, but it didn't do all that much besides. Ryu-Kishin won by a single point, and that was largely down to the fact that RyuKishin was very effective and quite well controlled, where Thunderwave kind of just didn't do anything music after it did the damage it did

[@Emer8]

Theres a reason the videos posted on April 1st

[@drneroli]

@@Emer8 We recorded the event in July last year without any awareness that this episode would release on the first of April. I dunno if you're having a joke but, no, nothing in the episode is a stupid prank

[@TaleOfTheToaster]

Oh trust me, the commentators didn’t even learn about this outcome until today…

[@Frosty_tha_Snowman]

"Aperture labs" 😂 that's great

[@ThyrusEvo]

Guess it's time for: builder of Ryu-Kishin here... Spoilers n stuff First of all I wanted to say that I love Thunderwave and I've known the builder of it for years from Gametechmods. He's great and I have alot of respect for him. This decision was so close that it really came down to a single point in the scoring. If you need an explanation for how it was judges I'd say go through the comments that complain about the judging. It's been explained rather well underneath those. Shoutout to The Mad Brit King who made an essay here somewhere having a great outsiders view and put it into words greatly. When the fight was recorded back in July 2021 and the results were announced I was more than surprised by the outcome and had more than one talk about the decision as it also felt wrong for me at the time. But after viewing the fight over and over with the criterias in mind I can now understand why I got that. But as I said before it's been a difference of one point. Can't get any closer than that. And in the end of the day it's just a video game. Noone has actual sponsors that are mad for not having enough exposure or something. Last season I lost to Type 29 by just one point (I know the episode said otherwise because *someone* ;) forgot to write down the actual results) and I didn't see anyone complain about that fight. I didn't either. Long story short: Ryu-Kishin is by far the best bot and will be elected president next year.

[@chardreisvlog9853]

0:04 Salute To The Fallen Bashbot Driver... 🫡

[@Living_Murphys_Law]

This video is sponsored by Air Polis. For your next Bashbox trip, make sure to take Air Polis!

[@TaleOfTheToaster]

Well if Thunderwave or Firewave return next year (after this, I wouldn’t be surprised if they didn’t bother) I’ll just have to pre-write some justification for why the judges decision might not go their way…

[@crystalcarnage694]

I honestly think this is gonna be Bashbots most Controversial Season, Firewave, Thunderwave and Twinzer I felt were a little robbed after their fights that tbh it should have gone with Weapon Effectiveness, the the effectiveness of the whole robot I feel

[@crystalcarnage694]

Of course this is my own opinion, but hey I have no experience with the game

[@drneroli]

@@crystalcarnage694 Thank you for admitting that it is just your opinion, hah, we've had too many people acting as if they could judge the fight when clearly misunderstanding how judging works

[@crystalcarnage694]

@@drneroli yeah I think it's how the criterias are explained to the others when they see a big spinner

[@RoboticAppleXL101]

I Agree with the Sparks vs Twinzer fight, and the Firewave and Thundeerwave matches could have gone either way so i dont mine, but fair enought

[@dualforcerobotics]

my fight was pretty good id say judging wise. knew i should have put a smidge more into the wedge if it were smaller ;P

[@oswaldthatendswald9981]

Honestly the call in the Thunderwave fight was pretty good, very close certainly but Ryu Kishin just edged it

[@themuffinman4044]

Brilliant and beautiful as always

[@botbuster8841]

spoilers unpopular opinion, but i do agree with the judges in ryu vs thunderwave, although ryu took a lot of damage, it was still aggresive and constantly ramming into thunderwave and flipping it over

[@themadbritking5543]

Didn't know Battlebotsboy. This episode is the first I've heard of this but damn that's I mean what do you say? Fly Rich. Fly. Ok. That was heavy. Onto the fun stuff. Apologies for the essay. I just really like this sort of stuff. Damn that was a good episode. Keep up the good work y'all. SPOILERS BELOW The first fight was so hard to pick a favourite for as I love both bots. Unlucky for Catch but it had a chance to win that fight. The problem came when Atlas had an opening. The second Atlas gets an opening it's usually over. If all goes well for Catch it could be a dark horse and Atlas is looking stronger than ever. Fight two. I so badly wanted the underdog to win but it wasn't to be. It definitely had chances but not expecting to get under Polis was what cost it which is very understandable. Still though Ace 5 may surprise us all yet and Polis doesn't really need any praise. Fight three. I judged a fight similar to this recently elsewhere with a similar reaction when the bot that had all the damage done to it won. Anyway onto the fight. One of two fights everybody will be talking about. My take on it is that you guys got it right. Thunderwave obviously was the more effective with it's weapon while Ryu Kishin was able to garner some control. So with that taken into account it was always gonna come down to aggression which is probably the category that Thunderwave struggles in the most. That particular type of horizontal needs to back off and so it loses aggression points while Ryu Kishin can chase it down and remain constantly aggressive. So yeah while Thunderwave was definitely the more effective with it's weapon. Ryu Kishin had moments with it's weapon, was aggressive as can be and was able to be controlling. The judges cards show how close it was. Thunderwave got category one which we all knew it would, won two - one in category three but category two is where I knew it was gonna have trouble. Both bots were close in the third category and miles apart in the first and second categories but Ryu Kishin using it's lifter the way it did and not backing down or letting Thunderwave have any room to breathe is what won it the fight clearly. Was very close I thought Thunderwave had it but understood how it lost. It did a lot of visually appealing hits but they didn't stop Ryu Kishin in any way .It's probably annoying and will have people debating that Thunderwave should of won and that spinners are now useless with this new judging criteria. We're use to the spinners always winning judges decisions just because of damage. This new criteria makes it more fair and allows other bots a chance. Everyone complains when one bot is doing everything but the spinner lands one or two big hits and wins off damage and now people complain that spinners can't win when the main event showed otherwise. The criteria works extremely well. Right got that rant over with. Sorry about that. Just frustrating. Fight four. Well it's a rumble and it was definitely chaos. Dynamight obviously had the win but one slight mishap and down it went. Skullcruncher has major gyro issues and issues with causing damage but I do still love the bot. It's definitely got potential. Vertically Unchallenged winning a JD was not something I imagine a lot of people expected and yet here we are. The weapon dying hindered and helped it but at the end of the day. Good win for Vertically Unchallenged, unlucky for Dynamight and Skullcruncher. Keep it going y'all. I have in you still. The showcase matches. Wither looks good. Avalanche will be really cool to see in a proper fight but well done to Wither. Looks very promising. Goldeneye and Kamicho seemed fairly close. So I don't really have much of a takeaway other than good job Goldeneye and bad luck Kamicho. Keep it going. The bots looks fantastic. Well done to Siren. Not the most difficult of opponents but still I absolutely adore Spinning Mayhem. Bad Language didn't seem to suffer much damage aside from the back panel so it looks sturdy. I look forward to seeing it in an actual match. Devastation looks good. May not have been getting the correct angle to bite or something but still. I look forward to seeing what it can do as well. Fight five. Honestly this judges could of gone either way. This fight was extremely close. I don't really know how to break down this fight but here we go. Tenderlove started strong couldn't really seem to do much for a long period of time whereas Panther did what it needed to do. Panther winning control and not aggression was a shock. Doesn't really matter obviously though. Tenderlove had some good attacks and that late push but Panther had the more consistent period of attack. That fight was honestly a toss up. Panther had weapon effective but only just while Tenderlove snatched aggression which makes sense but I thought Panther would of had that while Tenderlove would of had control. Wouldn't of changed the decision clearly. Just my thoughts. But yeah this fight was so close that it's really difficult to pick apart. Watching it back though I saw this. So Tenderlove where it was stuck in that period of control by Panther was rough and the fact that they didn't land a particularly decisive attack. they remained aggressive but it was the period of attacks for Panther that won it for them. Panther was struggling early but that succession of hits near the screws was brilliant. Add on the fact that it remained aggressive and was easily in control of Tenderlove for a portion of the fight was so crucial. The flipper trapping Tenderlove was unfortunate but that's just unlucky. At the end of the day though it was a stellar main event.

[@themadbritking5543]

Quick note: I saw this mentioned in another comment. I don't play this game so I don't understand how y'all judge but I just like to add my own thoughts. I'm not attempting to do this for y'all I just find judging this stuff, discussing it and getting my thoughts and opinions out there really fun. Sorry if it comes across as any manner of standoffish or rude that wasn't my intention. Just really like fight analysis.

[@ThyrusEvo]

This is a "builder of" comment comming from the Ryu-Kishin dude and I wanted to thank you for your point of view on the fight. I'm considering a comment on my own on this video or talk about it in an upcoming podcast but your words pretty much summed it up. Cheers mate!

[@themadbritking5543]

@@ThyrusEvo No problem. It looked nerve wracking. I was surprised at first from the initial announcement but the score card cleared it up and a second re-watch was useful as well. it was close but I can definitely agree with a very close split JD. God I wanna talk about this more but that would just fill up the comments section so I'll refrain from doing so. Great match.

[@ThyrusEvo]

@@themadbritking5543 feel free to talk about it :) I've known Ounce (Thunderwave) for years from an other robot related form so I don't think therecwas any bad blood. I also was very surprised when the announcement was made as I (as alot of others) have this battlebots influenced mindset that prioritises spinners in JDs. But appart from the wheel that got sniped through the wheelguard, everything that got taken off was sacrificial armor. The sides are there to tank a few hits and then fall off. Same for the spine that I had in the fight against Tank Off (full fight on crogas channel) so yeah. Driving in this was hard as this version of the bot was extremely slippery and I'm planning on improving on that alot in the next one.

[@croga9581]

your thoughts on the third fight are basically identical to what the judges thought

[@Jonnyonthespot123]

Wedgy boys finally get a shot at winning the giant wrench! No longer do big spin spin automatically give you the win win!

[@ThePimpasaurusRex456]

Great episode, thought the thunderwave decision was a little off but got distracted a bit during the fight and upon a re-watch I more or less agree with the decision. Also two of my favourite bots in the main event. Extra thoughts below Spoiler. imo it ended up being down to thunderwave kinda just sitting in the middle of the arena for most of the fight and not really looking for it's own attacks. To relate it to a battlebots fight from this season Kraken should have beaten hi-jinx for the same reason (although this fight T-wave did more than hi-jinx did in that fight in terms of aggression). As for main event, I think judge 3 had the same card as I would have, interesting that all 3 judges had different cards, but it was that close that I don't think any of them were wrong.

[@killdozer7792]

Yeah, but that's BattleBots we're talking about. We all know their mentality. Robot X - Control bot. Spends two minutes and forty seconds of the fight dominating, driving Robot Y into the arena wall at every given moment, not giving it the time of day at all. Robot Y - Spinner-bot. Manages to land a hit during the last few seconds, causing a tiny scratch. Faruq: "*WE HAVE A SPLIT DECISION!*"

[@drneroli]

Can I ask you lot, before you comment about the judging of fights, pause, rewatch the fight, and try and see it from our point of view? We're making an active effort to work against BattleBots' rubbish and ridiculous judging with criteria that give every robot a fair chance, and you lot are being a bit hyperbolic with how you respond about the way some fights are judged, remember it's a new judging system we're working with and the way we define how fights are won is a bit different now. Also knock it off with the April Fools nonsense, this was recorded last year and we didn't know until a couple of weeks ago when the fights were airing.

[@blurayz3]

I agreed with every decision bar the last one, which I'm undecided on, but people need to chill out and accept the fact this new criteria is gonna have teething issues.

[@killdozer7792]

The issue I'm having is that, seemingly, the commentators have been left out of the loop, because it's MASSIVELY confusing when they're basically saying "Oh, this is an obvious win for Robot X" and then it's a split win for Robot Y. It happened with Glacier vs Firewave and it's happened again now with Ryu-Keshin vs Thunderwave. I hate to say this, because I know they're NOT stupid (Toast believing there's no such thing as a wolverine notwithstanding), but cutting them out of the loop like this just makes them look like complete idiots.

[@drneroli]

@@killdozer7792 What happened was Croga forgot to tell them that the criteria had changed, and we didn't have a proper document written up for the judging criteria either, so that was on us

[@topatoman]

These judges seem incredibly biased against horizontal spinners so far. Like, there's no way that Thunderwave lost aggression 7-2. It's opponent spent the last 20 seconds blatantly running away

[@ThyrusEvo]

I didn't

[@croga9581]

I'm not sure what fight you watched but ryu kishin was much more aggressive even in the last 20 seconds, when it wasn't attacking thunderwave wasn't either

[@drneroli]

Ryu-Kishin still won the decision by a single point when we rejudged it last night, Thunderwave spent the bulk of the fight just kind of sat around not doing anything, which badly harmed its aggression score. You don't just get aggression points by having your weapon turned on, and you need to divorce yourself from how things are judged in BattleBots' wonky judging system

[@SolaR17777]

Man First win Fuckin finally Kinda sucks that it was a highlight fight but tbf I don’t remember it being that good of a fight.

[@TheHankScorpio]

Spoilered comment, beware: Must say actual outcome aside (come to that after), having commentry saying Thunderwave pretty much won, only for it to be shown as Ryu-Keshin victorious, it came across as pretty bizarre but that might be the nature of how this is produced. Result itself, I scored it a bit more Ryu-Kehsin's way than even the judges tbh with; EFF: 6-3 (Thunder), AGG: 7-2 (Ryu), and CON: 6-3 (Ryu) for 16-11 in favour of Ryu-Keshin. Effectiveness; Thunderwave's was pretty obvious but it couldn't stop either drive or weapon, and Ryu got multiple flips and knocks/knockbacks on Thunder, so 6-3 for Thunder. Aggression; clear cut as Ryu was constantly going towards Thunder thus 7-2 Ryu. Control; I just never saw much from Thunderwave in terms of controlled movement with intent or thought, it just meandered around as Ryu would charge it and take the hit that comes from a nigh-on 360° attack angle - the 3 big damaging attacks on ryu came from; a decent shot to remove a wheel, a poor turn from Ryu as Thunder was facing away (hardly intended), and a landing ontop after a shove by Ryu. That's 2 of the 3 bits of damage that came by accident, but that is also why I took from from Ryu in Control as their right side panel was purely their fault. Overall I can see effectiveness being a sticking point for some people, maybe further explanation of the category (weapon or bot effectiveness?, do grab bots make the category the same as Control?) would help ease some of the backlash. Enjoyable episode overall once more everyone involved, glad to see my pick Dynamite ̶s̶e̶l̶f̶-̶p̶i̶t̶t̶i̶n̶g̶ being pushed into the pit, fair play Vertically Unchallenged. ( ̶n̶o̶t̶h̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶l̶i̶k̶e̶ ̶d̶o̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶a̶ ̶K̶i̶l̶l̶e̶r̶h̶u̶r̶t̶z̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶r̶u̶i̶n̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶r̶ ̶c̶h̶a̶n̶c̶e̶s̶ nothing like having to correct obvious mistakes because I'm an idiot, ffs brain.)

[@codesilvergaming]

Builder of Vertically Unchallenged here, Dynamight definitely didn’t pit itself 😂 the moment that pit button was activated my goal was to get him in there

[@TheHankScorpio]

@@codesilvergaming seems my brain and my eyes were not working in tandem when I made that comment 🙄, i'll edit it correctly

[@Visleaf]

I agree with the effectiveness rule tbh, if you can vaporize a wheel in 1 hit and delete a panel in 2... you oughta get the ko 🤷 otherwise what were you doing (hint: not winning)

[@dualforcerobotics]

What game are we playing today? Not seeing rocket league.

[@Frosty_tha_Snowman]

3 favorite Bashbots: Amber, Panther, and... Polis.

[@Frosty_tha_Snowman]

Tinder love is an honorable mention. I don't even know why I like it so much, but I find myself rooting for it against every bot it goes against except for the 3 I mentioned. Lol

[@GalacticSpartan]

So me, Thyrus (Ryu-Kishin) and Grimm (Dynamight) Did our after thoughts in Episode 3. Enjoy! kzbin.info/www/bejne/r3PIiYprn6aFg9k

[@pudissahachaiseree5378]

Effective: 6-3 Panther Aggressive: 5-4 Panther Control: 3-6 Tenderlove Total point 14-13 Panther with a close one ( these two is my own decision not from the video)

[@scottbennitt3528]

The Battle of the Box Flippers had to go to Polis! Ace 5 did try it's best!

[@DrakathDrago]

I'm sorry but was that Thunderwave decision an April Fool's joke? There is no way Ryu-Kishin won that fight. It lost a wheel and both side panels but because he got a couple deflections suddenly he's more aggressive and controlled? So spinners can't win now unless they completely eviscerate their opponent?

[@drneroli]

That's misunderstanding how we do judges decisions. Thunderwave spent most of the fight sort of setting around not doing alot, they had negligable amounts of aggression and they were ill controlled. Ryu-Kishin won because they drove well and were super aggressive, Thunderwave simply didn't do enough. I think you're conflating things a bit here, watch the fight again and see that not only did Thunderwave spend alot of the fight not being constructive but also observe that the damage done to Ryu-Kishin wasn't enough to stop it

[@themadbritking5543]

Just cause the big spinner who did damage didn't win that doesn't mean spinners can't win or are you just completely forgetting the main event? As the other person who replied stated Thunderwave clearly won the Weapon Effectiveness category, control was weirdly but looking back understandably close but Thunderwaves design means it needs to sit back and not be aggressive while Ryu Kishin can just full send. If Thunderwave were a little more aggressive just by pushing they may have won that fight.

[@MrnintendoSEGAfan1]

Ryukishin vs Thunderwave Verstappen vs Hamilton Coincidence? Well I dunno…

[@markwebster4692]

Thunderwave robbed like hamilton

[@MrnintendoSEGAfan1]

@@markwebster4692 exactly what the debate is all about

[@drneroli]

@@markwebster4692 Well, no, as i've already explained in another comment

[@drneroli]

bof bome fof

[@codesilvergaming]

Let’s agree to disagree

[@croga9581]

pure unadulterated cap

[@codesilvergaming]

The absolute balls of this lad

[@leafycrossing4755]

Controversy!! Thunderwave should've won that!

[@chdreturns]

I find it was unfair to put Dynomite in that rumble instead of a 1-1 now they are 0-2 and probably won't make it in despite showing a lot of promise.

[@pudissahachaiseree5378]

Effective: Thunderwave 5-4 Aggressive: Thunderwave 5-4 Control: Ryu kishin 6-3 Total point : 13-14 Ryu kishin win by a super close decision for me and Vertically Unchallenged totally win that one because it kill dynamite

[@landonjackson4971]

When is the next season

[@Dubstepper]

There needs to be a slight rule change for FBS bots

[@s-pracing8514]

Isnt that the F1 intro music?

[@croga9581]

yes

[@nathanielhayden5919]

Why in the world wouldn't Thunderwave win? They used there weapon to be insanely "effective" they were never out of control and they were aggressive until about 30 seconds on the timer edit great main event! I have to say I feel there is no way to call that one that's better than the other I think if the JD is close enough in preliminaries the judges should be able to call a draw not gonna lie

[@drneroli]

There's no point in something like a "draw" existing in the qualifiers, else what would be the actual point in qualifying? Thunderwave didn't win because its damage didn't really do all that much to Ryu-Kishin, it was still able to drive, engage and use its own weapon. Thunderwave won the Effectiveness criteria, but it wasn't aggressive enough, or controlled enough, to win, which, need I remind you, Ryu-Kishin only did with 1 point. There was too much of the fight where Thunderwave was just sort of sat there not doing anything, it wasn't even really avoiding Ryu-Kishins rams or wedging or anything, it was just... there. Hence why it didn't accrue enough control or aggression points to win

[@Frosty_tha_Snowman]

0:01 wait, what happened to this guy?..

[@botbuster8841]

he passed away from cancer

[@Johnzobeams]

what have we learned this season anything can happen when it goes to the judges

[@killdozer7792]

What I've learned is that Nick and Toast shouldn't just automatically assume a robot has lost because it always wins when they say that. XD

[@drneroli]

We did a live judging during the episode, and the maths worked out the same, even with the improved effectiveness criteria. RyuKishin was bullying Thunderwave alot

[@killdozer7792]

@@drneroli Apparently nobody told the commentators that, though.

[@croga9581]

@@killdozer7792 they were told but I think they missed it

[@jordanlloyd5421]

somebody sound the battle cry!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[@torrone13]

Poor thunderwave, he deserved to win

[@JDT-Loadsamoney]

Who the FUCK are judging these fights? What are they on? Are they being bribed?

[@drneroli]

Knocking bits off your opponent doesn't entitle you the win, and you need to divorce yourself from the concept that damage is the be-all-end-all of winning a fight. Thunderwave simply didn't drive well enough or aggress for most the fight, it just sort of sat there in the one place for the bulk of the fight

[@JDT-Loadsamoney]

@@drneroli meh fair, but you can’t help but agree this season has some very intriguing judges decisions. Also wow, I really was a bitch when I wrote that wasn’t I?

[@croga9581]

@@JDT-Loadsamoney the fights have been closer than ever so the decisions have understandably been a lot tougher, looking back on previous seasons I don't think there is many fights this close especially 1 to 2 times per episode

[@JDT-Loadsamoney]

@@croga9581 yeah, I do understand this, but I felt thunderwave was on top for a majority of the match. Whether that was true or not I don’t know and I can really see how I made myself look like a massive dick yesterday didnt I? Still absolutely love this series, I always have!

[@DeAtHaToMiC88]

april fool? nobody thought thunderwave lost.

[@drneroli]

Yes, we did. And the series was filmed last July, so stop with the april fools nonsense. Just because you knocked a bunch of parts off of your opponent, it doesn't mean you're entitled the win, Thunderwave barely did anything for most of the fight, hence it lost in the other criteria

[@DeAtHaToMiC88]

@@drneroli yeah because pushing a robot about and doing zero damage/being in effective is the same as snapping pannels and wheels off your opponent. Look at the comments, even the commentators were shocked... To say it was a control/tank bot it didn't do much controling the fight and a few more hits would have probably stopped it from moving at all.

[@killdozer7792]

@@DeAtHaToMiC88 Yeah, look at the comments because they're CLEARLY smarter than the judges who have the rules written in front of them. Why don't YOU be a judge if you're so clever? Pushing a robot around counts as aggression. Continually going on the attack counts as aggression. Not moving does not. Making the attempt to attack counts as control, waiting does not. But you're clearly smarter than everyone here, so you should know that. TL;DR - Nobody cares what some random comment says. What matters is what the judges, who have the official rules, say.

[@DeAtHaToMiC88]

@@killdozer7792 I never said anyone was "smarter" than anyone else I said look at what the majority of the comments say, most of them thought that thunderwave won. Mentioning who is smarter and Yadda Yadda isn't really relevent to the outcome of the bouts, it just comes off as condecending... So the rules are that if a robot does actual damage and one robot shoves another one around then that automatically means that shoving is automatically better and deserves more recognition? If thats the case, bot builders should just create a thick box on wheels and drive at opponents all game... How boring is that? Also, from your previous two comments "nobody cares about a comment"... Clearly you do, clearly you've had that many of these similar comments that you're becoming annoyed at it and replying to individual comments.

[@killdozer7792]

@@DeAtHaToMiC88 Except I was not being condescending (you are being, though), and I was not "annoyed by all these other similar comments". Maybe read what I wrote before commenting? The difference is that, once drneroli explained the reason as to why Ryu-Keshin won (and why it "obviously wasn't an April Fools joke"), they dropped the matter or accepted it. You, meanwhile, have continued to be rude and act like you know better than them. Need I point out, drneroli is one of the judges? Why don't you read what Joshdoingthings YT wrote and their follow-up comment. Also, you are misunderstanding what drneroli said. They clearly said that Thunderwave wasn't simply guaranteed the win just because it caused damage. They never said anything about Ryu-Keshin getting the win purely because it pushed Thunderwave around - it's all supposed to add up. See Panther vs Tenderlove later in the episode - by your logic, Tenderlove should have won that. Ryu-Keshin won because it was more aggressive overall and showed better control. Thunderwave was slightly more effective, but that wasn't enough to swing it. What people in the comments say is (no disrespect) ultimately not relevant because they're not the judges. What the judges say is relevant.