What place do LGBTQIA have in Sikhi? 3HO Solstice 2016 Q&A #2

As part of a series of videos from talks done at the 3HO community, Jagraj Singh did a Q&A session after his talk on Sikhi in Kaljug (Age of Ignorance). #LGBT #LGBTQIA
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Vaheguru Simran in the Intro and Outro is how Sikhs chant Gods name. Its performed by Jagdeep Kaur of www.qi-rattan.com. You can download it for free from www.thekdp.com (Jam 2, track 6 = Waheguru Simran).
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[@harkeeratdate2015]

Homosexuality was legal in India for 2000 years up until the British came and outlawed it... Anyway, Jagraj Singh, spot on: "nirvair''...

[@Doberdobax]

You’re so right, a lot of cultural hardships in Asia come from British and european colonisation, it’s so sad

[@HimanshuSharma-oe4mk]

@Deartháir agus mairtíreach supreme court - legalized it around 2015

[@youreright...1284]

@Deartháir agus mairtíreach akaal takt is a joke after 1850

[@ssk6010]

He was such a great man. R.I.P. He will always be in our hearts. Xx He is definitely in a better place now because he followed the word of God 'Nirvair'.

[@poojakaur4568]

He died?

[@s7ngh]

@Sonia hey dont say that. He was a man, that understood our Generation and explained everthing in a very good way.

[@gwk8009]

@Sonia and that's why you don't have the God's grace yet to understand there is only one God and no one else exists... Pray for Naam daan

[@MRMiSS-uy4ec]

@Sonia I can understand your problem. When a student can't understand a subject then he/she either start to give more time to it and practice that subject hundreds of times or he/she starts to hate and curse the subject. You can only appreciate the work he had done only if you know what really sikhi is.

[@MRMiSS-uy4ec]

@Sonia you are talking abt cult. Are you serious. I mean you are probably now siting on ur couch and watching the TV never realising who is controlling the TV and news. In the name of entertainment and knowledge you are getting from your TV you are escaping the reality that you can't live with yourself.

[@jasmeetkaurkukreja15]

Honestly I found him because I was doubting myself as a Sikh and felt bad, really would love to meet him but he's with Waheguru now.

[@gerilla5582]

He died in 2017

[@AntiRedditSikh]

You are not a sikh if you are lgbt

[@mgwyville469]

Why did he die so young, despite his positive impact on those of all faiths? (or even lack there of) Is there a reasoning ? Thanks.

[@GurbaniExplained]

@@mgwyville469 he got liver cancer unfortunately

[@tonisylviamallette1601]

wahe guru~this man was a living saint~ his devotion was greater than one can imagine

[@ramael306]

sikism is the best religion in all wordl because tech love to everybody

[@justiceprovider9822]

Hey you seem like a latino sikh? Would you like to share your story?

[@ramael306]

guru granth sahib always speak about love to god and teach us we are one all kind of people we are one.

[@AntiRedditSikh]

No it does not. It condemns homosexuality

[@jackd2504]

i am a white britsh male i grew in southall. once again what a very evenly spritual motovatoinal speach

[@agd8462]

thank you for this. As a sikh man i have struggled with who i am... but this is beautiful!

[@user-yv8su2rq1p]

thank you for uploading this ! we need to talk more about these kinds of topics in the path

[@user-yv8su2rq1p]

*panth

[@duuhwinning6589]

You think the Brits kinda assassinated this great man?!

[@knownstranger2655]

"EXPLAIN TO OUR ELDERS"..... thank god we can

[@jackd2504]

one love to all mankinde.

[@amangill1uk]

Very well said 🙏🏽

[@radicalkills123]

Beautiful response. We're not here to take part, we're here to take over. Raj Karega Khalsa. Deg Teg Fateh

[@AmanSingh0699]

radicalkills veere you sound like a radical. Irony though.

[@Rob88]

We shouldn't identify ourselves with our sexuality but our spirituality. Sexual preference has no place in Gurdwara bottom line.

[@gagangill3078]

I go to bars , I chase girls , I do drugs , I kill daughter in womb , I Have kam kroth hankar in my mind but when I go to gurudwara no one judges me for following me anti sikh path , I m still welcomed and I sit in langar . My guru still welcomes me like a father but if my sexual desires are not straight i won't be welcomed , that's what people in this comment section things that's sad , coz dharam is son daya ( dhol dharam daya ka poot) if guru nanak can bless sajjan thugs and koda rakhsh why not lgbt , when nanak say " ek noor ta sabh jag ujpa kaun bhala kaun mande" , then people like me and people on this comment section has no aukat( capability ) to judge lgbts

[@Rob88]

please forgive me I only speak english could you translate?

[@janburn007]

I think it's quite easy to say that sexual preference has no place, but in reality it may be difficult to put into practice - both in religious communities & the general community - when certain sections of the community are not allowed the same "benefits" as others.

[@Rob88]

janburn007 is that another way of saying life isn't fair because it isn't. I feel that if we have gotten so far as to even speculate on ones sexuality while in the Gurdwara or practising Sikhism is a disservice to Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji and Sikhism in general and should not be tolerated internally or externally. Fairness is a human conceit that can not really exist because we are not and can not be omniscient. Rather just cultivate love and meditate on The Guru's teachings the rest should follow.

[@janburn007]

All I really intended to say was that, yes - there may be a perception out there, especially amongst the LGBT community, that life is not treating them fairly, because for example, same-sex people are not allowed to marry. So gay people are certainly treated differently in that regard, which also may flow over into the religious/spiritual aspect of their lives at some point (eg if the country's laws allowed it & a same-sex Sikh couple wanted to marry in a gurdwara). I was certainly not advocating speculating about the sexuality of people visiting a gurdwara, or any other place of worship, & I don't believe that should happen in any case. We should accept people for who they are & welcome them. However, I think we also need to acknowledge that in certain situations, there will be some aspects of religion (eg marriage in their religion) which cannot be made available to them. To some devout gay people, this may be important, leading to a perception that they are being treated differently, due to their sexuality, regardless of how loving & accepting of them we may be.

[@wildyoungbohemian]

Great motivational speech...

[@TheTurbanatore]

Waheguru

[@khushwantsingh1286]

to all LGBT haters - God is genderless, so what do we do about it?? ` also there are quotes in Gurbani - where states that Yakshas, Kinnars etc all sing gods praises...here kinnar means (half male and half female or eunuch); also somewhere i heard/read that Guru nank stated that forget outward appearance and the physical everybody is kinnar from inside ie. mind food for thought...probably change of thought

[@mnharjotsingh]

umm, not sure where you are getting that definition of Kinnar (ਕਿੰਨਰ) from. ਕਿੰਨਰ are a class of celestial beings who sing the praises of/play music for Devi/Devte and are described in the Mahaan Kosh to have the body of a human and the facial resemblance of a horse -- they don't even belong to our plane of existence... I have no idea what line of Gurbani you are trying to quote either, sounds like a fabrication derived from whatever your misguided (Sigmund Freud-esque) philosophy on the matter is. BTW - Your "food for thought" from me is to examine the word "celibate" -- which is a concept around the entomology of the word eunuch, especially in India.

[@xshoota6954]

but humans are gendered lol and its man and woman

[@kernailsingh5418]

Not hater until they want anand karaj so stop gay anand karaj and they everything will be fine

[@YOYO-dl6fe]

Vaheguru Ji

[@tavleenkour1107]

Hey one basic question to this topic in regard, saw many people and myself as long thinking about this thing that when we are having anand karaj does it anywhere specifically defines the knot between a male gender and a female or it is just fir two people taking guru sahib as supreme and living their life in God's rehat Or you may say under waheguru ji Would really love @basics of sikhi to answer this question

[@jaswindersinghsuniara800]

paji what is the sikhi view on divisive things like brexit and tories and capitalism?

[@ramael306]

love is love only matter love to your parthner, hate is the problem be gay is natural, nothing wrong with this

[@seufielassinantedhruvsingh1438]

No Sir,It is Unnatural and People's Personal Choice,but when they will get connected to Sikhi and Gurbani,they will themselves leave this behind bcz Sikhi bends towards Spirituality other than someone's choosed Sexual Prefrences,But when je get Connected to Sikhi he won't fight and argue on sexuality and live as a Sikh other thwn Gay or Lesbian

[@dharmakaurkhalsa1865]

found another one doneat Summer Solstice 2016

[@sapnavalley]

Where do you find answers in the guru granth sahib regarding topics such as homoesexuality, abortion and divorce? I can't seem to find anyone that can tell me further about these topics. Since the gurus words are true, then where is the information for kids to know more about this or get answers?

[@atwalbros2403]

Homosexuality has no reference in gurbani. Abortion however does, and on page 74 it is written that life begins at conception. Thus abortion is forbidden in sikhi. Divorce is allowed in sikhi but is kind of seen as a last result option.

[@daman9304]

You can find the answer in rahetnama of bhai nand Lal ji

[@kernailsingh5418]

Kuri mar was against sikhi the people who did it were were expelled gays not aloud

[@kernailsingh5418]

Divorce not really happened in guru ji days but today just go do Ardas sahib ji infront of Maharaj Dhan Dhan sahib Sri guru Granth sahib ji Maharaj

[@HS-lz8jg]

@@kernailsingh5418 ardas for what ?

[@ablekanh8938]

❤️🇨🇵

[@lemonade9051]

He said in this video there is 'official' edict/guidance on divorce. What? How can you say this is a way of life and an actual religion which guides your whole life? If there is a process/ceremony to get married, then what does your religion advise regarding divorce? Is there no religious procedure for this? This was a very wishy-washy, vague answer. 'We can educate' he says but then he also says that there is no 'edict' for homosexuality/divorce and other things. Why not?

[@gagangill3078]

I go to bars , I chase girls , I do drugs , I kill daughter in womb , I Have kam kroth hankar in my mind but when I go to gurudwara no one judges me for following (vipran) anti sikhi path , I m still welcomed and I sit in langar . My guru still welcomes me like a father but if my sexual desires are not straight i won't be welcomed , that's what people in this comment section things that's sad , coz dharam is son daya ( dhol dharam daya ka poot) if guru nanak can bless sajjan thugs and koda rakhsh why not lgbt , when nanak say " ek noor ta sabh jag ujpa kaun bhala kaun mande" , then people like me and people on this comment section has no aukat( capability ) to judge lgbts

[@mnharjotsingh]

+Gagan Gill, of course Guru Sahib can bless an LGBT individual, they are ਸਰਬ ਕਲਾ ਸਮਰਥ ! No one is questioning the ability for a gay person to receive blessings. So, in your statement about ਦਯਾ , what is your implication exactly? What ਧਰਮਿਕ act compassion are you requiring from those you are criticizing here? An acceptance of what?

[@gagangill3078]

veerji you didn't hear the question, she said lgbt community is opressed, their voices are not heard and prosecuted and in their is no place of in justice no matter what r u , who r u what u believe. Example guru nanak deny janau he called it's useless and then guru teg Bahadur gave his life to protect , it's doesn't believe in janau but he stood against injustice and oppressions

[@mnharjotsingh]

Bhai Sahib jee, you have misunderstood what is being said. Of course Sikhs will defend the right for all people to live in whatever way that pleases them, and that the laws of the Government should not deny people their rights. What we are saying in discussion is that there is no reason for a Sikh to need to support the LGBT community in their fight to re-define Marriage to be inclusive of homosexual couples. There is no "injustice" or "oppression" in defense of the fact that Marriage is between only 1 man and 1 woman.

[@gagangill3078]

that's like saying there is injustice in workshipping one God why sikhs defend idol worshipers , guru nanak sahib to garisti but if I don't wanna get married or marry gay doesn't make me a offender in God's eyes coz bani says karmi apo apni ki nehre ke door . An example is beef ban in India , I don't eat meat sikh don't eat meat but I find it wrong you can't appose what hindu religion say to other people who eat beef like Muslims plus Hindu organization act violence who violate the ban, that's why veerji said daya comes before dharam , guru nanak called a woman selling her body on street oh my daughter dont sell urself for money your suffering will go away if you give urself to naam, surprising in Pakistan they have transgenders or we call hijira election candidates even fundamentalist Muslim country like Pakistan ruled legalizing gay marriage u can Google even though sikhi doesn't say anything about transgenders, but Quran call transgenders is against Islam , and we sikh who call our self our religion all on logic and truth we acting this way

[@mnharjotsingh]

You are correct, Sikhi leads by light and not enforcement. Other people can go on believing what ever they want... Where above has anyone talked about going out there and fighting to stop gay people from marrying? But, in line with the fact the Sikhi teaches -not enforces- what is wrong with saying what eve believe to be the Truth about Marriage? We are simply saying that the concept opposes Gurmat and are trying to reiterate that point for people who identify as Sikhs, and we should be able to state this to any other person who would ask us what the Sikh belief on the matter is. You would be surprised, there is a very large proportion of Sikh youth in the West who have started to believe that, even within Sikhi, marriage does not have to be between only a man and a woman.

[@greatgirl6013]

The one more fact is that sexuality is more related to physical body However Sikhi is more concentrated on soul than body So do soul has any gender???

[@yash-lo9od]

Well I can't speak for everybody but gender is a social construction, so no I believe souls do not have any gender

[@harkiratsingh5169]

But soul and body are interrelated ..

[@swaranbains8326]

Soul can be put into man or woman or male or female, we have experienced all genders as we progressed this reincarnation life, souls do not have a gender if they did it would be against Sikhi

[@swaranbains8326]

@@harkiratsingh5169 no they’re not, the body is dust and dies, the soul does not, the soul has no penis or vagina, the soul changes based on actions

[@kernailsingh5418]

@@swaranbains8326 well no anand karaj

[@mgwyville469]

Why did God call him "home" at such a young age , despite his positive impact on those of all faiths?

[@tonisylviamallette1601]

he was taken from us as he held great power~wahe guru

[@4M4NSingh]

Degh Tegh Fateh

[@diphyllum8180]

What's the "haloomi raj" he says it sounds like but isn't?

[@dietoxickidthe2nd889]

Diphyllum HE laemai raj that’s how to pronounce it

[@stoicx2532]

Cheese. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halloumi

[@SHERAxBeats]

Halemi Raj ( Compassionate Rule )

[@seneca5556]

India always accepted Homosexuality from thousands of years When Ram had to fight a war with trans people in Lanka he accepted them as equal humans Our temples have had inscriptions of Lesbians These all went away when west asian religions invaded and found it derogatory for no reason No Indian panth promotes homosexuality

[@michellebell9931]

Hate is a Spiritual Death.

[@harbir9]

Sikhism teach get rid of lust, anger, greed, attachment, ego. I will focus on lust portion to answer the questions of sexual attraction. If a straight person have lust it is wrong, he will be drenched in using other sex for his false pleasure. Would that be right? Answer: no. Do having any amount of lust is right? Answer:no. This life is to get out of this bondage. Lust controls all beings that reproduce sexually. So no true freedom, bonded to act on lust. Whereas Human life gives chance to learn to be free of the act that gives mimmalist pleasure but is not forever and is poisonous. People deliberately fall into trap of lust and lose there moral ground and feel pain. Homosexual or any form of sexuality is still bonded to lust, as long your body aches for false pleasure in sexual act. True pleasure is to know god. All sexual act other than bringing natural life to earth is lustrous. It is to used for personal gain to a perceived happiness(not actual happiness). The question should be even though if a person is straight or homosexual, they should ask themselves to be free from lust. Lust hinders the spiritual growth. Well when there is no lust (no sexual attraction), no need to perform sex because out realization that this pleasure is temporary and harmful. You won’t even consider it. Now is LGBTQ+ right or straight is right. The answer is none of those. The right answer one who is above lust is right.

[@skang420]

With respect, none of you get it. Homosexuality is a question of sexuality & thus, the act and expression of sex. What is sikhi's opinion on sex? That it's a worldly pleasure. So waheguru ji, any LGBTQIA stance is worldly. A huge misunderstanding comes from not understanding the meaning of lavaan shabd ( if you look deep, let alone sex, even marriage is a wordly thing according to baani). Sat di sri akaal h ji

[@Cheetahlover]

I’m transgender and I want to be sikh

[@adilavi-xo4yf]

in other word the Sikh community is not open yet completely to LGBT "It's in a process"

[@templosikhbrazil]

Nanak naam niranjan janeyo

[@Jaaas]

/NO HATE/ I don’t think we should allow ‘Gay’ Anand Karaj…. Honestly, I am very uncomfortable with the idea…. ‘Gay’ Anand Karaj I mean, ppl can just live their own lives as they want. But Anand Karaj have always been with Male-Female. It kinda feels like Marayada or something. Maybe I’m just uncomfortable with ‘new’ /change…

[@GaganDeep-iz6bz]

Nobody talks about these communities people .

[@khushimushi109]

do sikhs not like hindus?

[@princekrazie]

🏳️‍🌈😇

[@janburn007]

So does this mean that Sikhi would approve of same-sex marriage, & if so, could a same-sex Sikh couple be "married" in a gurdwara (providing the laws of that country permitted same-sex marriage)? Could a same-sex couple go through the Anand Karaj ceremony in a gurdwara? If this was not possible, how would Sikhi view a same-sex Sikh couple who chose to marry in a Civil wedding ceremony, where the laws of that country permitted same-sex marriage?

[@basicsofsikhi]

No the Anand Kaaraj cannot be held for a same sex couple as the Khalsa Panth has not decided that

[@mnharjotsingh]

+Basics of Sikhi There it is again, your open to interpretation answer... you did not even address the full question. Why do you just say "the Khalsa Panth has not decided" on it; why not include the fact that, per the traditions of the Guru's, marriage is exclusively between one man and one woman? Do you not see that the (very intelligent) question being asked by janburn007 follows the logic behind the vague answer that is repeatedly provided by your team? I would ask you please to address my much earlier comment at some point please. Here it is again for your convenience: I think everyone agrees and accepts parchaar that the LGBT community should not be mistreated for their lifestyle choices. It's the fact that as a team of parchaaraks, you fail to mention that Sikh philosophy rejects the concept of a homosexual 'marriage' which is an issue. Instead, you go on to say their lifestyle (even though you do not explicitly mention that it might or might not be monogamous -and not promiscuous) is "not doing anyone any harm", and is therefore acceptable and is a non-issue to Dharam... You do not ever acknowledge/address the fact that there are currently people, even those who consider themselves Sikhs, out there preaching that gay 'marriage' is acceptable to Sikhi...rather, your response is an ambiguous, "the Khalsa Panth has not really discussed this matter, [so in the future] after this generation has 'educated' the older and younger generation in regards to these issues...[who knows what might happen]!" What will you do when tomorrow the government of the UK or US decides to remove the non-profit tax-exemption status of Gurdwara organizations unless they begin to accommodate homosexual marriage ceremonies (and for arguments sake lets say they are not requesting an Anand Kaaraj, but just want the Granthi Singh to do ceremonious Ardaas for their civil 'marriage') and the Sikh youth (you are responsible for educating) all believe that these things are within Gurmat and are "non-issues"? What will you do?

[@janburn007]

Manharjot Singh: You mentioned there are some Sikhs who preach that same-sex "marriage" is acceptable to Sikhi. By that, did you mean they are saying that it's okay for the general public to allow same-sex marriage, or did they specifically mean that it would be okay for Sikhi to allow/perform same-sex marriage ceremonies (if the country's laws permitted it). I am aware of people from other faith-based communities/religions who would be happy to accept (& perhaps even advocate for) a change in their country's laws to allow same-sex marriage, as long as they are not obliged to accept such practices & perform same-sex marriages, within their own religions (as their religions do not allow same-sex marriage). However, if a country's laws are changed to allow same-sex marriage, I think there is a genuine concern amongst followers of some religions, about whether the laws will also protect those who, because of their religious beliefs, do not believe in, or acknowledge same-sex marriage. Will those religions be obliged to perform such marriages if requested, , even though it may be against their beliefs? In some countries where same-sex marriages are already allowed, there is evidence of legal action being taken against people who refused (due to their religious beliefs) to provide wedding services to same-sex couples. So it could be that such laws might over-ride religious beliefs, unless special exemptions are put in place to accommodate people's religious beliefs & protect their religious freedom. Some people might advocate that same-sex marriage is a matter of "human rights", & there are also those who might say that in all cases, human rights should over-ride any religious beliefs or cultural practices. As you mentioned, it would also be interesting to see whether religious organisations could maintain their tax-exempt status, if they will not perform same-sex marriages, once the the laws have been changed to allow it.

[@mnharjotsingh]

+janburn007 Exactly, you've hit the nail on the head with the statements you made. It is a concern that religious beliefs might be overridden in elevation of the matter to one of human rights, especially because accommodation laws (in light of the US Supreme Court's ruling on the matter) are almost non-existent and often time vetoed (even when passed in heavily conservative regions such as the State of Georgia). To begin to address your question, I'd want to say first that by the teachings of our faith: Sikhs do not believe in imposing our beliefs on to others, Sikhs are opponents of oppression of any form, and we do not support the discrimination of individuals on the basis of their color, creed, caste, status, sexual disposition, etc. Personally, I believe that the "Marriage Equality" movement has taken advantage of this sentiment, in such a way that many in the younger generation of Sikhs (my generation) now believe that a push for this "equality" is a contribution towards the delivery of social justice. All Sikhs should advocate for policy reforms that treat homosexual partnerships (and other civic relationships) equally under the law and extend to them the same legal advantages marital relationships allow for, but to say that philosophically we have no issue with indirectly advocating for these policy changes by way of re-defining what the institution of marriage is, is false. So to answer your question: In my comment I did not literally mean the word "preaching". Amongst preachers, there really is no discussion, the general answer you will get is, no, it should not happen, Sikhi does not have any hate for homosexuality as the Abrahamic religions do, so people can carry on making whatever lifestyle choices they want, the actions of a promiscuous straight person are just as condemnable those of a gay person’s. The Sikh Council in the UK issued this statement back in 2013, “We have no objection to same sex couples wanting to make commitments/vows to each other, as they currently do so when they enter civil partnerships. Nor do we object to same sex couples having all legal and other rights, similar to a married couple within a civic union. However, we object to the word marriage being used to replace civil union.” By preaching, I really meant you will find some (youth - generally armed with little more knowledge than “Sikhi teaches us that all people are equal” and enfranchised with the idea of a delivery of social justice) baselessly asserting that Sikhs support gay “marriage” as the law of the land and even fewer (but still existent) arguing that it is acceptable for Sikhs to partake in practice. A Sikh might happen to choose a civic partnership in places where law allows for it, but, just because it may not be grounds for discrimination against the individual, by no means could it be considered as sanctioned within the Sikh faith. In reality, the re-defining of marriage is a misguided easy fix to addressing the general policy issues/oversights that exist surrounding banking, property rights, healthcare, death, and inheritance (in the United States at least). In truth, there is no discrimination in marriage: any individual, man or woman, has always been able to get married -- given of course a marriage is what they seek. In Sikhi, when a man and woman are to be married, it based upon a consideration of their individual qualities and readiness for marriage, not a preconceived notion of ‘love’. Upon completion of the, Anand Kaaraj, it is said that the individuals have become “Perveshi of Grhisat Dharam” or roughly translated to mean “entrants to the 'life of a householder' ” (and are now “ready to contribute to society”). To say that same sex partnerships are equivalent to traditional marriages is an argument for the dissolution of marriage. The removal of the sexual complementarity aspect of marriage is akin to suggesting that mothers and fathers are replaceable/interchangeable and is advocacy for an increase in practices such as IVFs, gestational surrogacy (“womb rental”), and (effectively) the denial of a child’s right to both a mom and a dad. Were a proper discourse around this allowed, rather than the reduced, “shove our ‘progressive’ (#lovewins) agenda down the throat of the masses”, approach by the liberal media which has dominated this discussion, this viewpoint might not be considered as ‘bigoted’ and negatively stigmatized by millennials as they have been taught to think it to be.

[@janburn007]

+Manharjot Singh: Thank you for your detailed response, & I would certainly agree with most of what you have said. While the LGBT community often claims it wants "marriage equality", I generally prefer to use the term "same-sex marriage", because it appears to me that their idea of "marriage equality" is really just confined to "same-sex marriage", & not marriage equality for "everyone". There are presently a number of categories of people (besides LGBT people) who, according to the laws of most countries, are not allowed to "marry". These include people who are already married, people who have not reached the required age, & people who may be related to one another in certain ways. If the LGBT community really wanted "marriage equality", then to my way of thinking , they would want to give that same equality to all those people whom the laws presently prevent from marrying (not just the LGBT community). As I do not believe that is what the LGBT community is advocating, I don't believe they want "real" marriage equality at all - they just want the laws changed to allow people of the same sex to be able to "marry". In many countries there are now laws allowing "civil partnerships", which is a formal & legal acknowledgement of a couple's committed relationship. Such civil partnerships, (while being technically & legally different to a "marriage"), can usually also be entered into by same-sex couples, & usually bestows on such couples the same, or very similar rights, to that of a "married" couple. I think part of the problem is that for same-sex couples who may be devout in their particular religion or faith, one of these "civil partnerships" may not be good enough, & they may desire to actually be "married" according to the rites/rituals of their particular religion. I remember seeing a TV documentary a few years ago where a Roman Catholic lesbian couple were interviewed & they said that nothing short of a full Roman Catholic marriage ceremony was acceptable to them - not even a "civil partnership" ceremony (though this was neither legally possible, nor acceptable to the Roman Catholic church). As you indicated, in order to allow same-sex "marriage", the marriage laws in most countries would need to be changed & re-defined, to indicate that legal "marriage" is no longer just between a man & a woman. Most of the Abrahamic religions would agree with Sikhi, in that they believe (according to their scriptures) that "marriage" should only be between a man & a woman, & they would oppose the re-defining of "marriage" to include anyone else. Most of the Abrahamic faiths teach that any type of sexual relationship outside of "marriage" is wrong & "sinful". As gay people are presently not allowed to "marry", their only option therefore is to remain celibate, if they truly wish to "practise" their faith. In the Christian scriptures, it is mainly homosexual "practices" which are condemned. So one might say that it is okay to "be" homosexual (ie be attracted to people of the same sex), as long as one does not indulge in homosexual practices, or is not in a homosexual relationship (ie one is celibate). I would certainly agree with you that the proponents of same-sex marriage, whilst advocating "tolerance" by the general community, do not readily display the same tolerance towards those who have a different point of view. It seems to have somehow become "politically correct" to be in favour of same-sex "marriage", & those who hold a different view, even due to their religious beliefs, are labelled as "bigots" & "discriminating", & told they are "wrong". Freedom of speech & the ability for people to hold their own beliefs, does not seem to get a look in on this issue. I sometimes wonder where all this might lead. Will the "thought police" tell us what to think & believe?

[@jessicastrat9376]

Doesn’t GGS state “chop off the head that does not bow to the lord”? In which case, aren’t atheists treated differently to say the least?

[@ablockbathrooms8304]

not necessarily. for me thats interpreted as bowing down to pureness. and everyones pure :)

[@Val-M.]

@Jessica Strat - no it doesn't state that.

[@jessicastrat9376]

@@Val-M. I’m happy to be corrected. IF it did say that, would it mean atheists would be treated differently?

[@jessicastrat9376]

@@AnonymousPerson-wh7jl Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Page 89

[@AnonymousPerson-wh7jl]

@@jessicastrat9376 SGGS has a lot of metaphors, not everything included in it has a literal meaning. The SGGS also included a shabad about cleaning the feet of god with your hair, this does not literally mean we will clean the feet of god using your hair as all that is left after death is your soul. It simply resembles a love and respect for Waheguru. Do not take each and every shabad literally, instead understand the teaching behind it and implement it in your life. Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh.

[@pablohernandez9681]

Man without knowledge is dangerous

[@moonlightlight5450]

love is conditional not unconditional

[@93Dholi]

Whats the view on this when it comes to kaam tho? Surely if they are gay they arent allowed to undertake the anand karaj. If so any sexual acts performed are out of wedlock and therefore it is kaam. I think bhai saab you should have also touched upon this point also that yes there is no hate and they can be and should be treated equally however they also should realise that if they choose to be gay then if they want to live a sikh lifestyle they also must remain celebate as and form of physical relations with their partners will be acts of kaam. There are many sacrifices people make to try and follow the path of sikhi, whether it be giving up meat and alcohol or socialising in places such as bars n clubs, to marrying within the faith and on the same sikhi path aswell as the gays living a celebate life to control kaam. This i feel should have also been mentioned to not confuse that sangat.

[@93Dholi]

+BoonzieHD no you misunderstand me. I feel you are looking at this through your preconceived idea of already having hate for the gay people. I am not gay, nor do i feel that lifestyle is feasible in sikhi, but in saying that i do not judge them or hate them. Im simply pointing out that it should be explained that if they want to live a sikh lifestlye, due to kaam they must sacrifice theses acts inorder to not since. If two people love each other then its not my place to say whether that love is true or false.

[@93Dholi]

+BoonzieHD dont fall into the trap of judging others. Maharaaj says the true judges are those that judge themselves and not others. Your opinion is your opinion and people must respect that, but if your opinion is guided by hate and judgement then your opinion becomes worthless as you too are not adopting the gurus ways

[@93Dholi]

+Vir thats true but in gurbani it says maharaj gives us this form of marriage to control out lust. Basics also covered a video on this where they say When we get into sikhi and we follow the path maharaj gives us 4 things. Controlled kaam is one of those things. Yes you cant stop people from having sex, but its the whole sacrifice for your guru. Remember, when the panj pyare took amrit they didnt go up to take amrit, they went to give their lives and head to guru gobind singh ji. If they can sacrifice life then surely we can sacrifice lust. Sex outside of marriage is not allowed in sikhi. As gay people arent allowed to have a anand karaj then they also are not married in the eyes of the guru. Therefore any sexual acts are outside of marriage and essentially forbidden

[@user-yv8su2rq1p]

wait so are people who are unable to reproduce told they have to remain celibate too? like that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard, kaam is an internal thing you can't tell someone to just get rid of kaam and if having sex and not being able to reproduce is lust then why don't we stop people who can't reproduce to not get married?

[@93Dholi]

+kaur no penji how did you manage to come up with that conclusion? kaam is not sex, kaam is lust. Maharaj has given us this life of marriage to help us control our lust. Sex is not just for reproducing, it can be for pleasure and for expression of love for your partner providing it is again controlled and it doesnt become the focal point of the marriage. It is guru sahib and akal purakh waheguru that is the focal point of any marriage. anand karaj is a ceremony that binds/marries two souls into one. Upon this, those two in wedlock are able to help each other control their kaam. In the eyes our guru only a gursikh man and woman can partake in the anand karaj ceremony and only when married can they engage in these activities. Remember it is only after marriage when sex is permitted. So if this is the case two gays as they cannot get married via the anand karaj they, in the eyes of waheguru are not married therefore should not partake in any kaam as these acts will be outside of wedlock.

[@hsingh4869]

The day when 2 Sikhs who are not 1 Male and 1 Female have an Anand Karaj in a Gurudwara, is the day when Sikhs will truly accept equality of humankind.

[@UncleRuckus2134]

What?

[@hsingh4869]

@@UncleRuckus2134 What is the rest of your question?

[@Arnold_Thelegend]

Shut up bro

[@Arnold_Thelegend]

fuck that equality

[@__soap__]

LGBTQIA what??

[@kikolandzik]

the organisation like feminism, racism, BLM, democracy to destroy humanity.

[@xaviarnoir5840]

LGBTQIA is an acronym for people who are "Lesbian, Gay, Transgender, Queer, Intersexual, Asexual. There are a tone of versions, with a tone of letters. That's why you better say SAGA (Sexual And Gender Acceptance) -It's easy to say -It includes everyone without having so many letters in the acronym -Saga means "a long story of heroic achievement", which is an excellent way to describe the movement -It sounds hella cool :D

[@__soap__]

kikolandzik What is Queer/intersexual?

[@kikolandzik]

McQueen queer = homosexual intersexual = is when someone born with genetic problem in mother bump. And this is the fact - sorry.

[@godisacritter8917]

It should only be LGBT it stands for Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Trans.

[@arunveergrewal4346]

I am so sad that our Sikh religion which was supposed to be accepting and inclusive of all is becoming so much extreme nowadays!!! ☹️☹️

[@gursimarsingh5505]

You think like that. They are just asking questions and answering them According to our guru. Open your mind. They are not saying bad words to them or anything. Extremism is when you say something extreme.

[@harkiratsingh5169]

I think that we should firstly check ourselves then others... In sikhi we respect all community and people and we help them in their needs but just as patit sikh aur sehajdhaari sikhs (sikhs or punjabis who love guru nanak but are not baptized) go to gurudwara, do sewa, read bani but they are not considered as singhs just the case applies for homosexual..

[@swaranbains8326]

@@gursimarsingh5505 i have been on the main Sikh forums, in accordance with their egos a lot of Sikhs refuse to accept gay people can be Sikh or punjabi, they torment these people in these groups and do not be Sikh, they say horrible things. You do not have to go far to find homophobia in Sikh community, it doesn’t exist in Sikhi but in the community which is so dumb bc we didn’t care till the colonisers made it illegal and made it a huge part of society, Sikhism hardly talks about homosexuals bc it doesn’t mean anything

[@swaranbains8326]

@@harkiratsingh5169 that’s crap. A homosexual can be a Singh, people should be judged on spirituality and their connection to god, who cares not for if they like men or women

[@rozqr4320]

Its not becoming “extreme”. But after cycles of genocides and constant attacks of assimilation/elimination from forces ( Brahmanical and similar), it is rightly on defence. Its rejuvenating itself in spirits. People who interpreted it as a passive practise are having issues with it. In words of Bhai Nand Lal; “ Khalsa soi jo kre nit Jang” Internal and outside battles define Khalsa!

[@templosikhbrazil]

Tu byant ko virla jano

[@SuperHectorofTroy]

@10.18 that’s a fundamental flaw in your religion! How can Sikhi not know if homosexuality is correct or not? You should be extremely worried! This reinforces the view that Sikhism was a man made religion by a someone a few hundred years ago.

[@jasleensihra9754]

Homosexuality is outside morality, it has nothing to do with right or wrong.

[@satvindermudan5006]

Which religion is not man made?

[@swaranbains8326]

So was Christianity, Judaism and Islam. All from men who had connections with god. The flaws you think aren’t flaws, they do not talk about homosexuality bc it doesn’t matter, you need to connect to god, not debate about who people are. These are myopic views that will waste ur time on earth. If god accepted homosexuals who were compassionate and connected to god, then what, all other religions who strongly opposed it those people would have done a great injustice

[@kernailsingh5418]

@@jasleensihra9754 no .opinion there was no gay Sikhs

[@Val-M.]

@@kernailsingh5418 - There are plenty. One of my relatives is.

[@kernailsingh5418]

Have said some things about gays but yes guru ji says never hate but anand karaj is only man and woman Singh and Kaur but two men no and plus their is nothing about it from guru jis and the khalsa PANTH because it was not around .its like women panj pyaaras if it started 1699 then would be acceptable but women giani ji ok. APOLOGIES for my language about gays forgiveness

[@ben_s73]

How do you determine who is actually LGBTQIA or someone who has exhausted their affluent lifestyle experiences and just wants to try the next trend driven thing as part of their publicity endorsement-driven survival model. This is damning in the world of role models especially where young uninformed people who have a tough enough time getting through youth without patriarchy and matriarchy often look to media as a surrogate when trying to define and understand themselves.

[@diphyllum8180]

You don't need to determine you just need to love and accept. Whether they're bound to the Dharma or wandering aimlessly, either way that's what they need to do at the moment.

[@harapriyamoharatha2868]

Well,how did u determine u were straight?????

[@amolpreetkaur3443]

This would have been a question if it was a choice, it's really not

[@ben_s73]

@@harapriyamoharatha2868 ....erm....The majority Natural order and protocol of procreation to sustain life on the planet...good grief!!

[@ben_s73]

@@amolpreetkaur3443 I wonder why your Guru in their infinite wisdom prescribed "Singhs" and "Kaurs"s as the Sikh "Standard" and nothing else. I guess they got it wrong!!!

[@bettytan7975]

Would gay marriages be allowed in the Sikh temple?

[@sajjanonecreativestudio1281]

My understanding is that gay marriage can but Anand Karaj cannot

[@user-gq3xc9yl5l]

In anand karaj (sikh marriage) is only for a sikh man and sikh woman

[@user-gq3xc9yl5l]

Amanderp Singh you spreading dumb information 🤦‍♂️ In sikhi you are only allowed to marry in anand karaj, and this is between sikh man and sikh woman But sikhi does NOT discriminate if you are gay and marry a man but this should be done not in gurdwara

[@svll4131]

betty Tan no

[@hope2251]

Sikh marriage is a for procreation not for love or romance. So no

[@adityasingh-lf5os]

No disrespect to him but he doesn't know anything about Indian culture, when he said india culture is against transsexuals, homosexuals, he was totally wrong, he hasn't read anything apart from the Sikh literature it seems

[@zracklfr1334]

gays, bisexuals, transsexuals etc are fine with me, but it is the non binary stuff i don' agree with.

[@diphyllum8180]

All souls are genderless, but in this physical incarnation there are many mixes of masculine and feminine. There's nothing really to disagree with, there's just our existence, and the ignorance and hatred we have to deal with from people who want to erase our existence.

[@SimranKaur-dq1lc]

ZrAckl Fr1 let people be who they want to be love and respect everyone

[@swaranbains8326]

Sikhism says souls are non binary lol, but physical bodies are gendered

[@transcendentallll]

Why?? We don’t need your opinion to stop being who we are. Non binary people are also trans if you didn’t know. Just use their pronouns and don’t deadname or disrespect them, it’s not hard.

[@Neklank]

Hanji, Guru Sahib is santokh and nirvair, we should not persecute LGBT community. BUT, this does not mean it is right or normal, it is clearly against universal law and as early as the 60s was a recognised philia even in the US and frowned upon. The leftie liberals now terrorise ones who are against this mindset. The shabad quoted is perfect, at that point in time, Sikhs did not face these questions as homosexuals in the panth did not exist. Whatever next BoS will start supporting the Anand Karaj of same sex couples and make a mockery in the process. Trying to be too popular will be its eventual downfall.

[@kanwalsingh9385]

Where is this universal law written? In which book? U believe in something doesn't mean that is a universal law

[@jessweaver5713]

LGBT people have existed since before Sikhism. It’s social rules and norms that persecute them, not god. They are born that way and doesn’t that mean they are created in their perfect form?

[@bhavandeepbath4370]

@Deartháir agus mairtíreach So are you also agaisnt infertile couples getting married?

[@bhavandeepbath4370]

@Deartháir agus mairtíreach So then you are just homophobic, I hope someday you are blessed enough to change that perspective, but until then I can't do anything to get rid of the intolerance and hate in your heart.

[@AntiRedditSikh]

Sikhi has condemned homosexuality and lgbt as it has no place in sikhi

[@jasmeetkaurkukreja15]

Honestly I found him because I was doubting myself as a Sikh and felt bad, really would love to meet him but he's with Waheguru now.