Bassnectar 360 Subwoofer Sound Design

[@Ratso_au]

I liked this format Dave. Nice to see the journey from problem, to theoretical solution through to implementation

[@DaveRat]

🤙👍🤙

[@Jlinwoodjackson]

All of his “tutorials “ are like this. He usually has some sort of “model situation “ set up on the computer, or with actual gear. His videos are crazy informative. He shows it all. And he has soooo much real world, cut your teeth knowledge on tour sound

[@DaveRat]

Cool cool James, and Dover is a member of my channel as well. I do live zoom chats and post them and there are a few hundred more vids on the member side

[@maxwaehrens4402]

Only thing that could have topped it off, was a short demo of the points in your conclusion here: 19:55

[@DaveRat]

I've been pondering a setup that will demonstrate low frequency nulls in a desktop videotapable scenario. That said, I am on to new adventures and need balance sharing stuff I already know and did vs stuff I enjoy figuring out and learning.

[@kenp9073]

Your performance as a sound engineer is just as, if not more important than the performance of the actual musicians. Poetry in motion is an understatement! Thanks again Dave for sharing real world knowledge with us!

[@DaveRat]

Fun and thank you! 🤙

[@spejsat4505]

I surely hope you mean is this instance specifically? This guy is a good engineer i have no doubt and much respect! But the SE is around at all to make the musician translate in the room, or on record. Im strawmannirg you because you probably meant this specific performance tho... which is very much materialsport music from what i gather, high and mighty as i am...

[@DaveRat]

Hmmm, an artist can be defined many ways and one way is that an artist is someone who can transform ideas concepts, emotions or entities into a form that is more understandable or accessible to others. Putting more or less weight on the various links in the chain is a very individual decision. Beautiful architectural concepts are nothing without a master builder and a craftsman capable of fulfilling the build along with the mathletics of structural engineers to ensure feasibility and stability. My heroes might not be the same as your heroes and you are no more or less correct than I in who we consider a true artist

[@WompRok]

​@spejsat4505 no for any bullshit DJ who requires this dumbass decibel level. Perfect example of being louder is better, great for grooming high schoolers. Dave is the artist on this one, fuck bassnectar and fuck dipshit DJs with their heads stuck up their ass lmfao

[@mattarthurs3571]

Very VERY cool stuff Dave. I was not present for this show you designed specifically but I was present for multiple other “360” shows Bassnectar put on and they were truly a magical experience provided by a one of a kind production. Standing anywhere in a 20-30,000 person stadium and it sounding as if you are up front is something wild. It’s amazing to see the technical application here having experienced it live as well. More stuff like this please!

[@DaveRat]

👍🤙👍

[@visathief]

Young audio engineer here, videos like this are incredible resources in practical problem solving. Explanations were very clear and concise, especially the little details of temperature change and how to keep levels consistent in spite of it. Great stuff!

[@DaveRat]

Thank you!!

[@PsychicHealingFactoryOutlet]

As a non-engineer whos interested in spatial audio and the physicality of sound, its super interesting to see the software used for designing a sound space on this scale. I’d love to see more, especially nontraditional configurations or works with lots of low frequency in three dimensions.

[@DaveRat]

🤙👍🤙

[@Matt.S.]

This was such a great video; I remember learning this in school. We did a small setup in a staging room and I will never forget how erie it was to be standing behind 1,000s of watts of subwoofers and almost all the sound was gone, but yet I could hear EVERYTHING shaking and vibrating intensely. I would have paid $100s to have experienced your setup. 🤩

[@DaveRat]

🤙👍🤙

[@Toggymok]

'The eye of the storm'

[@chrishall4012]

Seen Bassnectar over 100 times and this show was definitely top 5 in sound

[@DaveRat]

Love that!!!

[@StereoAnthony]

I totally would pay to have experienced this as well. Just amazing!

[@thenoisynomad]

Love the timing of this video in my life right now. I’m at Rational Acoustics going through SMAART training and just set up cardioid subs for the first time yesterday. Walking around the pair of subs and hearing the rejection blew my mind. It’s one thing to know the theory, but the practical application made me giddy. I can only imagine what it must’ve been like to get on that stage and hear, or rather not hear it for the first time! Thanks Dave!

[@DaveRat]

Fun and yes!

[@TheKb117]

@@DaveRat can you liken it to being in the eye of the storm... the lull and peace, and yet you know outside the bass is raging... hahaha

[@DaveRat]

It really was a surreal eye of the storm feel

[@kenners02]

I’m going through SMAART training also!

[@DaveRat]

Good plan. Awesome software and important to know

[@UncleManuel]

Holy crap, this is ANC on a whole other level! Using reverse-phased subs to improve quality of live for the DJ/performer is quite genious! 😎😎👍👍

[@DaveRat]

👍🤙👍

[@AttawayAudio]

Fascinating journey through design, conception, implementation, and continued testing. With the small changes in delay times being such a significant factor, I'd imagine that sub positioning being precise down to the 1/4" was a critical component as well. Thanks for sharing!

[@DaveRat]

Yes, position was critical and arcing the subs may have been even better but I reached what I believe to be the point of diminishing returns

[@tobitweaks]

incredible work

[@DaveRat]

🤙👍🤙

[@raiden72]

I was there in Birmingham 2015 and for NYE the next couple of years! That is so cool to see how the magic is done! Thank you so much for your hard work and dedication to the craft!!! Those Bassnectar shows were surely a sight to see. It is really a shame How some may abuse their fame to exploit others, but there's no question that those shows were a work of art

[@DaveRat]

🤙👍🤙

[@YourMomsFavoriteCommenter]

@raiden72 I haven't been following the basshead scene, but I do like some Bassnectar music. Can you give me the rundown on what you're referring to? Short or long answer, if any, works. Thanks in advance.

[@raiden72]

@@YourMomsFavoriteCommenter i could not summarize it better than the vice article, "fall of Bassnectar"

[@pauljohnson2478]

@@YourMomsFavoriteCommenter seems like a bunch of girls (some women technically) made obviously retarded decisions which they are now cashing in on with media hysteria and pretending like their choices were solely the product of manipulation, instead of actually owning up to their real mistakes from their ultimate self decision. Did they fall victim to their own obsessions? They took money for fucking a famous person, they probably bragged to their friends about it. Have you ever heard girls of that age group talk privately? Esp. ones that behave like that... Now they are taking money for insinuiating they were raped, which is pretty awful degredation to the term for people that have been. The human condition is in a state of dissarray. It's offensive to hear about this, thinking about the immense history of people, and all the terrible malpractice, and suddenly the tables are turned and the plebs are able to manipulate and generate benefits too. This is not an Epstein-like story. These people weren't trafficked, they weren't bred in captivity at a Mexican ranch. Teenagers aren't supposed to be allowed to make such character harming mistakes, they shouldn't be programmed to think they can get away with those mistakes, they shouldn't be allowed to wear them like this, it does nothing to limit this kind of dynamic in the future. Now all these fan girls will think they can get the story, get the cash, and win the lawsuit no worries, everyone will support their terrible decisions. Very selfish and sad. The moral of the story is don't be disgusting, it will have an impact. For Bassnector to lower himself to these impulsive situations due to a leverage many at his level have used forever, and for those girls to prostitute themselves, it's not a good move. Beatle-mania should have been a big red flag in hindsight. Widespread hysteria is unhealhty, everyone is targeted and it is needed from every individual to not fall victim by making good choices and carrying oneself in a considered and ethical way. It impacts everything not just our own little selves. A serious pity, and there's no room for empathy when people act up like this. Edit to add: this video was actually really cool, and linking to that Vice article really turned my mood reading about a bunch of idiots and their woe is me "I was only 21, like he had so much more life experience" - I doubt whether these fools can gather such a thing, given their inability to understand and control their motivations and actions at a grown age.. lol

[@RyanKirk99]

That is interesting how seemingly small differences in time and temperature can have such a dramatic difference in the end result. Thanks for allowing us audio geeks a peek behind the scene.

[@DaveRat]

🤙👍🤙

[@robertharker]

Oooh. An interesting case for machine learning. Real time analysis of temperature, humidity and level. Constantly adjusting delay while monitoring sound level to minimize level in the center while maintaining level in the outer ring. Machine learning (AI) doing micro adjustments in realtime and analyzing the results. Great format for the video. Helped me understand the difference between cardioid and end fire sub arrays. Keep up the good work!

[@DaveRat]

Super cool Robert! Also you have access to loads of vids as a member. This has been a member only vid and am just releasing public. Check the member exclusive playlist, there are over 200 member only vids in there

[@raball]

You don't need AI, it's just calculus man (or experience!). Don't replace Dave with robots!

[@DaveRat]

👍🤙🤙

[@RoySATX]

That was really fascinating. Admittedly I don't know all the physics but as someone who in my younger days spent a lot of time in DJ booths, with the resultant ear damage to prove it, I can appreciate the challenges involved and how more skilled engineers such as yourself should be consulted.

[@DaveRat]

🤙👍🤙

[@solarforless]

Your should do one on bose 802 and sub and l1 and sub1 and 2 for the small guys so they can get better sound at different venues they play at think it would a great one because a lot if there are being used from small bands to dj’s and plays dance recitals So we can get it to sound better for the audiences and teach /show how important speaker placement is

[@DaveRat]

Check out my subwoofer playlist, there is loads of info there and more to come

[@kumble2687]

I'd imagine it be so much fun, and amazing to see artists butting heads with engineers to create unique experiences together, amazing insight and a treasure for sharing

[@DaveRat]

It was not butting heads, I was brought in as a specialist to solve an extreme and complex challenge. I love this stuff!

[@kumble2687]

@@DaveRat i think i might have used the wrong words haha, i meant colaborating

[@DaveRat]

Yes and perfect

[@DaftFader]

"Putting their heads together" means collaborating, but "butting heads" means not agreeing. They sound very similar, but are in fact opposites heh. ;)

[@johnmarkbaugbog6296]

Genius! I now realized that sound cancellation can be that important, Ive always thought the louder the better. Thanks Dave!

[@DaveRat]

👍🤙👍

[@jarrett7977]

I was at this show. This video is an absolute gem for someone who not only loved his 360 shows, but a sound nerd as well. So cool to watch and learn! And I was in the riser seats and it was plenty loud!! It was awesome. Thank you for your hard work.

[@DaveRat]

Awesome and yeah that was a fun show

[@LILDIRTNAPX]

just say "very popular edm musician" hahaha

[@DaveRat]

👍🤙👍

[@nathanbarnes4740]

What a fascinating video! Seriously loved it! It was awesome seeing the prediction process being brought to life with the actual rig. And that you monitored it with Smaart during the show to optimise it even further when the room was warming up is just so cool. Awesome work.

[@DaveRat]

👍🤙👍

[@DanielDunn1222Music]

This is exactly what I've been searching for in my quest to really understand how to slay the fans at my future shows. Thank you so, much for sharing this; you are a wizard and genius for figuring that out. I've already been curious about humidity and temp' living/starting in Tampa so you're also a ninja for solving/elucidating that issue with this also. And you resemble my old neighbor almost to a T, I can't believe I'm spacing his name right now, he's a sound engineer also so you may be related in blood or spirit. Thank you again for such amazing info!

[@DaveRat]

Super cool and thank you Daniel!!

[@faderautomation]

Dave that’s always interesting to see and understand from you on these kind of sub setups, also cover few Venues with flown subs aiming down towards the audience area concept

[@DaveRat]

👍🤙👍

[@parkeranderson1172]

any particular reason you went with this setup versus a gradient inverted stack deployment? I would imagine the latter would save a bit of the space required for physical spacing of the two rings.

[@DaveRat]

would love to see a prediction of a gradient inverted stack covering 360 degrees with 40dB lower spl in the center than at 300 feet. To the best of my knowledge, and based on the numerous designs I considered, there is no other design that will achieve this extreme cancellation. In fact, not even close. In fact I challenge anyone to come up with an array that can meet or exceed the coverage consistancy, maintain volume level in the listening area and meet or exceed cancellation in the center. Extra bonus points if it can be done without blocking sightlines or increasing the footprint

[@charliecaminiti9614]

Great insight Dave! Can I have you sitting by me in my classes for audio engineering live & acoustics? 😉👍🏻

[@DaveRat]

Oh my, I did not do so great in school, I get too distracted

[@RobertBardos]

Awesome Dave thanks for sharing !! I am an aspiring sound human in Minnesota! Appreciate your sharing / teaching! Big upps man!!

[@DaveRat]

Cool cool Robert!

[@jmannUSMC]

Having pros that are willing to teach the public their craft is so great. Loved this presentation and learning more about arena sound design!

[@DaveRat]

Awesome

[@topekadiyver2]

Thank you for sharing this! I find it informative and enlightening....but isnt "enlightening" the LDs job? har har har! I have an issue with that software youre using...and maybe its in my own head. (Ive never uised it personally) but does it take the walls and other objects into consideration that would reflect the bass energy back towards the source? (or some other direction?) I realize that in this scenarior you have banks of seating going up at a slope, so thats going to brek up and absorb and redirect the sound to where its probably not an issue. But what about straight up?

[@DaveRat]

You can add surfaces but typically the prediction you want are the direct sound and to place surfaces and try and minimize sound being reflected. I've got more in depth vids on subs you have access to as a member Search the member exclusive videos for "sub" and or "subwoofer"

[@TheAveridgeGuitarist]

Awesome video and very articulate explanation and visualization of sound cancellation from design to final product. I've engineered for a lot of DJs in small clubs who insist on insane monitoring SPLs, it's so interesting to see the work going into the solving the complete opposite problem! Understanding acoustics makes such a difference to what we do and your videos are a great source of knowledge.

[@DaveRat]

🤙👍🤙

[@mattc487]

"caused his HDD to skip" Bro even back then EVERY MOBILE DJ IN THE BASS MUSIC KNEW you would need to upgrade to an SSD I was an IDIOT and lost my music collection like 3 times over before actually doing this myself ironically enough. VERY cool explanation; def subscribed for more!

[@DaveRat]

The HDD was the back up that failed when the SSD failed but the biggest issue was his vision was blurred and could not see the computer screens. Everything was shutting down both electronic and human due to vibration

[@wilsden]

This is so cool. i always wondered how technicians handled sound issues like these. Thank you for sharing stuff like this. What a cool job

[@DaveRat]

👍🤙👍

[@peehandshihtzu]

This is really cool! When you introduced the temperature variable it blew my mind a bit. I mean I knew it was a factor but I did not realize it was so consistent as to be useful. Too cool Dave! :)

[@DaveRat]

🤙👍🤙

[@ChaseNoStraighter]

Great work! As an RF engineer I have often gone after nulls in circuits. With RF we use a network analyzer with a polar plot showing both amplitude and phase. You are adjusting phase with delay and can find a minimum but without a polar plot it is hard to tell phase imbalance from amplitude imbalance. Anyway great process and great explanation as always!

[@DaveRat]

Awesome and yeah the software I use doesn't have the best tools for this. In more recent versions of the software and I didn't show it in the video but there is the ability now to click into the field and the software will output the amplitude and time delay of a signal at that location. So I can set the null signal and the main signal to have the exact same amplitude and delay at a specific location. The software uses it so that you can find maximum summation but it can be used also with a polarity verse to get maximum cancellation

[@disklamer]

Good stuff, this kind of large complex installations with specific requirements make for interesting challenges. I like how you applied the principle of cancellation to shape the sound level in different areas. Add a controller with a thermal sensor to automate the delay adjustments for ultimate overenginerding. When you mentioned 136 dB I felt a slight panic and my ears started ringing...

[@DaveRat]

🤙👍🐝

[@ox64ox64]

Absolutely love these types of videos and discussions! Thank you so much for sharing Dave. This is the type of stuff I would live for, but unfortunately don't get to do. Question....noticing how critical the delays and temperature are in the software designer phase on manipulating sound levels, how does frequency response impact sound level as you cross 32hz to 63hz? Is this non-issue because of doing RTA and correcting with DSP? It would seem the subwoofers/cabinets would have a response curve as well as the venue that would throw things off some? Or am I missing something? Would've love to been at this show to hear this!

[@DaveRat]

Low frequency waveforms are such long wavelengths that temperature doesn't affect them much but higher frequencies can be a challenge and the coverage changes with temperature

[@tonmasterdigital7937]

This is burning profession, i really like your videos and the fire that you have for the things that you're doing. It is always mind opening, thanks a lot

[@DaveRat]

🤙👍🤙

[@pkdude5334]

what was the feedback from Bassnectar? I imagine he was dumbfounded by your ability to make it so quiet in the center but so loud everywhere else, especially because of his experience at his previous shows.

[@DaveRat]

I actually worked with Loren on numerous projects as a sound consultant solving low frequency issues and optimizing maximum low-end. Yeah I was his go-to guy for a while then I got busy but the people that took over used my designs

[@chrishall4012]

I was at that show and I saw Bassnectar over 100 times from 09-2015 and this show was definitely top 5 in sound quality

[@DaveRat]

Awesome!!!

[@darrylpioch2055]

After bassnectar cancelled himself for sexual abuse did you jump on the excision train as a substitute? Lolll

[@DaveRat]

Working with Lorin back in 2015 or so was pleasant and professional. Have not worked with him since but I'm not one to jump to conclusions or make assumptions as you may know from my tests and videos. Whatever he has or has not done to the best of my knowledge factual information is not available to us publicly at this point in time

[@darrylpioch2055]

@@DaveRat brother he admitted to it all and cancelled all his shows bc of it. He got charged with sex trafficking, pedophilia and a couple other things. It's extremely public lol. It's about the first thing that comes up when you google bassnectar

[@darrylpioch2055]

@@DaveRat I'm not sure about the progress on the lawsuit though. But yea it doesn't sit with the rave community and he's not gonna be able to make a comeback

[@malacmalac05]

Hello Dave, This is really amazing, thank you for sharing! I am wondering, how do the outer ring subs sum with the inner ring subs outwards without cancellation? Since the inner ring subs match the outer ring to cancel inwards, don`t they also cancel partly the sound travelling outwards? Thanks!

[@DaveRat]

Cool cool this is an older video but explains how cardioid works and and fire in the three part series kzbin.info/www/bejne/jKiveWqwhZt_rdEsi=0BDXKeT4bG6t3iXv

[@dubdogstep]

Great content loved it, thanks for sharing!!!

[@handlenotset]

WOW WOW WOW thats amazing! my jaw DROPPED when the center went black. incredible work dave

[@DaveRat]

Fun!

[@ericpeters0n]

Suuuuper facinating! @Dave Rat -- Don't know this tool, but I assume the modeling is doing an average over the analyzed frequency range? I'm curious if (and would expect that) there'd be significant differences in cancellation from the bottom to the top end of that range.

[@DaveRat]

Sound vision allows you to analyze in any 1/3 octave region from 20 Hz up to 100 Hertz. Since this is a polarity reversed cardioid array the cancellation is actually pretty consistent over the full range of the subwoofer

[@deadmusik9969]

FACTS state Bassnectar groomed young girls, dope speaker set up Dave, but man working with an artist like that..... sheesh

[@DaveRat]

Hmmm, reading the news in 2021 and back dating whatever you read to form an opinion on a person's doing show in 2015?

[@jimmy_jamesjams_a_lot4171]

3M makes these things that they call ‘dampers’. Dampers are installed into buildings as an adhesive and joining compound, and older buildings can be retrofitted with them as well. Supposed to ‘earthquake-proof’ buildings. They’re basically blocks of a semi solid goop that is high-viscosity and high-elasticity. Imagine a sort of synthetic muscle that pushes back at you while you push on it, and pulls away from you When you try and stretch it. It also seems to contract when you hit it. Really interesting stuff. What it seems to do is prevent structures from ever resonating by any means available. You know this I’m sure, but when that champagne glass atop a PA shatters from sound waves, it’s because the tone has matched the resonant frequency of that glass. So maybe someone could squeeze a new product out of those dampers, by seating the sensitive computer appliances in it?! Always great videos, Dave! Thank you for sharing with us your professional experiences!

[@DaveRat]

Very cool and yes, familiar. If the issue was just gear, that path could be considered, but actual human DJ could not see with blurred vision and it gets hard to breath at thos levels. So reducing the energy radiated in that area is preferred

[@Melo7849]

Blurred vision because of excessive bass volume at a Bassnectar show?? Nah. Never. Although, I did see nuts unscrewing themselves off of a bolt because of bass volume - yeah, bassnectar did that. Bloody q-tips.. yeah, that too.

[@DaveRat]

👍🤙👍

[@jimbrown6422]

Can you fly the PA from above pointing down? Over the most of the audience locations? Just don't put a cluster above the DJ. Include subs and full range above?

[@DaveRat]

That can be done the challenge is placement of the sound system due to conflicts with lighting and video and it's not possible to have it really loud for the audience and very quiet for the DJ if the speakers are at a distance. The only way to get really distinct cancellation is to have a very symmetrical pattern around the DJ with very well tuned cancellation. Think of it this way the ring of subs are like flashlights pointed outward and dark in the center. Putting subs above and pointing them downward at the audience would be like putting lights in the ceiling and shooting them downward and trying to have it be bright for the audience and dark for the DJ which is right near the audience

[@jessejuliano8056]

Man, totally forgot about bassnectar. I randomly stumbled into one a gig in 2012(I think) in Auckland New Zealand. First time hearing the music was at that gig!

[@DaveRat]

🤙👍🤙

[@CarlBurnss]

i was wondering what the temperature impact was on the surround/spider, thus fs of the driver, lately i had these new 18sound drivers after 4 hour brake-inn, still having a 18HZ higher fs than spec. and than thinking, my workshop was almost freezing!

[@DaveRat]

Don't know but it is important to drive the same or very close to the same power into all the speakers so they all warm in unison. Maintaining the cancellation

[@willb1157]

Interesting - seeing that sub is omni directional. Well, thats how mere mortals perceive it. Dj story is great - couldn’t focus hahaha. Oh God!

[@DaveRat]

🤙👍🤙

[@travisSimon365]

Great video. There seem to be a large number of variables: heat, humidity, and even placement of the subs. I can't imagine that they were millimeter precise. So my question is: at the gig, how did you adjust for all the variables? Was it just a matter of trial-and-error with the delay?

[@DaveRat]

Set it up and was not getting the desired rejection found the subs were not as accurately placed as needed. Got them to an inch or 2 then it was better. Fine tunes the delay to max rejection. Put a mic in the center and monitored level and adjusted delay to maintain rejection.

[@MMeesh13]

I love this! I’ve always been interested in making this a career for myself! Would you recommend any particular schools or is there a specific program I should apply for to make this my future career?! I have a solid knack for computers and have been around live performance’s/ studios my whole life! Any help would be greatly appreciated!

[@DaveRat]

That's a tough one. I didn't attend the school but I've hired people from various schools and also people that have not gone to school over the years. Yeah keep asking around and try not to end up with one of those we spend a ton of money and don't learn a lot

[@cromagnon305]

Interesting. Does that lower the bass response for all frequencies or do certain frequencies not cancel? I wonder if you could use this to make the DJ puke 😂

[@DaveRat]

With a cardioid setup it cancels all frequencies and the coverage sound for the audience is band limited a bit so it loses some energy so you want to increase the sub count to make up for that. And yes if you flipped the focus to the DJ he or she would not be able to see or breathe

[@SaccoBelmonte]

That was absolutely fascinating Dave. Thank you for that super cool insight. BTW I wonder if there is a maximum diameter a woofer can be? Like beyond a point the materials of the diaphragm don't move as expected (I'm talking something like a 10m x 10m speaker, something ridiculous), I imagine such massive diaphragm having the issue of rippling waves within.

[@DaveRat]

Used to be 18 was best for subs but 21" is growing. 30" requires such a big motor that conventional motors don't work well

[@andrewpaschall320]

I was at the show and had really thought at the time how it was even possible to be in the middle of that thing and survive the set... it was loud where I was dancing on the floor level to be sure, and as you mentioned it got HOT, FAST. Awesome explanation on how you managed to not rearrange dude's organs with the math done here. 😂 Cheers! Any wild rigs you've got coming up I could catch somewhere?

[@DaveRat]

Cool cool and fun show. Nothing really other than my work on Coachella festival

[@DaKeithCody]

@DaveRat I have a SoundVision model the the BJCC arena if you want your listeners to have it. I think Kyle Pace was the original author.

[@DaveRat]

Kyle works for me!

[@QIKUGAMES-QIKU]

You put your Mixxers etc on airbag pillows... suitable for all environments

[@DaveRat]

Save the gear, let the human be pummeled.

[@ridefast0]

Subwoofers and room acoustics are exactly what I need to hear about, thanks!

[@DaveRat]

👍🤙👍

[@miguelcraveiro]

Shure I like this format. Very interesting and your explanation is very informative.Thank you so much for sharing those kind of experiences.

[@DaveRat]

Thank you

[@ladjkaoz]

7 ft distance between subs, did you used 28hz as Xover point? Thank you for your time and info... 👋

[@DaveRat]

7 ft is about 1/4 wavelength at 40 Hz. Unrelated to x-over

[@farty555]

Great video. Love this problem and solution. Thank you for sharing. That phase cancelation trick is genius

[@DaveRat]

👍🤙👍

[@housemana]

hey dave. . . this is a long shot most likely geographically speaking, but you wouldnt by chance have been the designer/engineer for lorin when he came to the key arena for bumbershoot 2014. or 2015 - where the crew and him set a key arena first and blew a mainline fuse the squad went THAT hard. ive been to hundreds of shows at the key now and the bins were going full gale and then some. operations went to the fuse box and repaired the fuse quick in and out and the rig was throwing bassweight within probably a handful of minutes of wait time for them to safely perform the repair. a golden memory. appreciate all yall do plus anyone with that big a portrait of their doggo is good people in my book mate. big up that too D stay warm out there ty again ⚡

[@DaveRat]

I was renting gear to BN back then but not as involved with design yet

[@jdub1922]

Great video! I'd love to see more about your personal experiences on the road, stories, you know, the juicy stuff :) Thanks for this!

[@DaveRat]

🤙👍 cool, will try some more of that

[@claudecharles3679]

Everyone should know that bass sounds are not quite directional; thus you don't need to position your average bass boomer in the center of your stereo. 360° diffusion? no need for a special engineer to achieve that, it's only a physical law.

[@DaveRat]

For home hifi the fun way to find where to put the sub is to put it at the listening positions and then walk around and find where ya hear the most lows. Put the subs there as sound is recirpocal

[@Teamcurtisbjj]

I had no idea this level of wizardry existed. I’ve done lots of FOH… and realize I’m such a novice.

[@DaveRat]

👍🤙👍

[@Roetz40]

Very nice explanation! Gonna go and scetch up my company floor and maybe re arrange the woofers :D

[@DaveRat]

👍🤙👍

[@Me63422]

This was very interesting. I once went to a club where it was insane, it was noticeably loud, you could feel everything vibrate but i could still talk to a friend in the middle of the dance floor. Usually everything is just too loud and I don't like it. Why is that?

[@DaveRat]

Each artist and engineer combination will have a different goal on what they want to present and somewhat overwhelmingly loud immersive and some want a different balance it really just depends on music type and target audience and how much gear they have

[@CDP135Z]

How hard is it to get the subs exactly placed in the real world room according to the software drawings in order to make this happen? Are you guys busting out measuring tapes and moving the clusters down the the 1/16ths of an inch?

[@DaveRat]

For this I had someone hold the end of a measuring tape and drew to big rings with chalk. Then put the subs on the rings

[@pntbwlr]

assuming you wouldnt stack the cardioid subs on the bottom of the stack because theyre already stacked forward?

[@DaveRat]

All the subs are standard dual 18, the cardioid pattern is achieve through spacing in er to outer ring, time delay and polarity

[@gregoire4188]

today i discoverd a job, and what an interesting one, was looking up about how making my how subs but this is another level, impressing, thanks for the knowledge about it, it's very cool !

[@DaveRat]

👍👍🤙

[@OwlKnight32]

Bassnectar bro? C'mon.

[@DaveRat]

Perhaps you're better at predicting what will happen in the future than I. Back in 2015 when I worked for that artist he was polite and professional and since then people have made accusations against him that is currently to the best of my knowledge a " he said she said" scenario And if you watch any my videos and see what I do you will also know that I base my positions verifiable facts and do not embrace assumptions. While this may change, to the best of my knowledge any opinion positive or negative towards Bassnectar and the current legal issues are not currently based in publicly available verified facts. So my response to you is Come on bro , prematurely jumping to conclusions you know better than that.

[@JacobCHolden]

That was sick, great video! Wish i was there with Dillinja being played!

[@DaveRat]

👍🤙👍

[@buxda]

There is so much thought put into the subwoofer setup, but then again there is ARCS side by side that are not coupling but interfering in the HF - or did you mute one of the ARCS's HF sections?

[@DaveRat]

Look up the arc specs. Normally done vertically, two arcs horn to horn give 90 degrees

[@derKischda]

I noticed that you only changed the temperature in your simulation and leaving the humidity constantly at 30%. From my experience the humidity also gets quiet high at concerts especially if people start heating up and dance. Is the effect of it negligible in general?

[@DaveRat]

Heat is the dominant factor

[@topekadiyver2]

Ive got a more general question RE Bass Subs. It would seem that most of your subs are front-loaded boxes. Is this just a better, more efficient design? What about scoops and folded horns? Have you done an episode comparing these various designs and boxes and showing their individual practical uses? I work in mostly medium sized clubs and a few out door (VERY DIY Punkrock festivals) a year and i just dont have any subs that can keep up with that, and our budget basically means I do a LOT of work for free. What design should I use if we decided to just pour some giant horns out of concrete and then just took some 18ths to bolt to the backside?

[@DaveRat]

Hmmm, personally and as a rental company, we look to using more modular and configurable subs than fewer louder bigger heavier horn loaded subs. Where are you located? I may have some dual 18" rat subs I can sell off if you are interested Front loaded tend to go lower, require less EQ but not be as loud. Using more of them and having them easy to transport and move around and places to put them is a big advantage

[@topekadiyver2]

@@DaveRat Im out in the Golden Waving Plains of Wheat in Kansas (Youve been here with BF before) Id LOVE to get some subs but it would have to be uber cheap , Im not sure I could afford the shiping! (However, I think I can get you a tax write off if they were donated through a non profit.)

[@mostyles328]

you can experience a cardiac arrest at extreme lower bass sound pressure. I would have been terrifying being center stage at the previous event. Wonder what the max spl/db was?

[@DaveRat]

🤙🤙🤙

[@SeattleRingHunter]

Noise canceling headphone technology 🤣 Cheers, #SeattleRingHunter

[@DaveRat]

Oooh, fun and I wish! Great to meet ya! noise cancelling headphones are another level up where they listen to sound and create the opposite sound and combine them I experimented with noise cancelling but it gets messy fast once you are bigger than the safe predictable haven of headphones

[@nicholasrheaume1568]

Amazing , that softwaer is pretty incredible. i attended 360 n new york for the new years one year and it was awsome im a huge fan of the artist . did you enjoiy the performance ? And dd you have a good expirence working with Loran and hs team ?

[@DaveRat]

Yeah, was good working with Lorin. And did a bunch of shows and mixed a few..

[@localpyro]

This is a very interesting topic and I have learned so much from your content, thank you so much.

[@DaveRat]

Awesome and thank you

[@ericmattinen4728]

Nice to see how temperature affects how sound travels. Now imagine setting up for a festival that goes all day long for several days. Temperature, humidity, barometric pressure all affect how sound travels. You would have to look at the weather forecast and model for all of the variables over a period of time, and hope the forecast is accurate and be able to shape the sound on the fly.

[@DaveRat]

Ha! I can imagine, actually as the sound provider of audio for Coachella festival I imaging that every year for the past 20 years

[@jimbeaux4988]

That's crazy! If the DJ steps off his platform, or the inner ring cuts out, he dies.

[@DaveRat]

Ha! Yeah. Or at least plug his ears

[@ke6gwf]

This is where you want to put your sub system processors on the same power feed as the inner ring of subs, so in case the inner ring blows a breaker, you don't blow the artist's eardrums, because it takes out the outer ring as well! Lol

[@DaveRat]

👍🤙👍

[@StephenTack]

That's awesome, and intriguing. About how many watts of subs and mains were there?

[@DaveRat]

64 subs powers by 16 LA8 amps So about 120,000 watts.

[@ModulateRecords]

A really interesting video, it's crazy what you can do with a few extra subs and a bit of delay!

[@DaveRat]

👍🤙👍

[@garethplaysdrums]

Is it only in the last few years that this sort of software and modeling has helped to develop a stage and pa setup?? Would it have been possible to figure this out like 20 years ago? Great video sir 👌

[@DaveRat]

This was 2015 and the software was around in the mid 90s That said, I used to and still ocxasionally calc all this by hand. I use the software to show others and fine tune

[@jacksondavis6043]

hi Dave, When reversing the polarity are the subwoofers mirroring each other? as in facing away from each other to achieve the cleanest deconstructive interference? Thanks in advance!

[@DaveRat]

I've done a load of sub videos. Maybe even check the oldest ones I did if ya really want to grasp the concepts

[@ItsWesSmithYo]

Engineering is where it’s at. Thanks dude. 🙏🖤😎🙌

[@DaveRat]

👍👍👍

[@Tinmar_Isation]

I like how 0.1ms difference could make a DJ's head explode

[@DaveRat]

Crazy right! In real world it's not that touchy as the prediction but was still way more sensitive than I expected

[@samfromuk]

That is very interesting. I am be interested to know about the effects of sound bouncing off the seats and walls etc. and reflecting back in. It does not appear to be an issue with the low end 360 design.

[@DaveRat]

Whether it is 360 or not, indoor sound results; n reflections. But with 360, sound sent in more directions increases overall reverberance. That said, getting subs closer to people improves direct to reflected ratio. Timing the subs to mains with mains that can go very low helps focus sound to desired distanced areas. Also, stage center venue gets sound closer to more people than sound at one end of the arena

[@lightingisfun]

With such tight tolerances I’m wondering how the layout was physically done. Though with all the symmetry at least it’d be easy enough to measure. I imagine someone there with a tape measure needing guys to nudge those things .5” one way or another.

[@DaveRat]

I drew chalk circles

[@Hellbrawler]

Amazing video! Could you please tell me the name of the song used in your outro? Thanks!

[@DaveRat]

Good question, I haven't named it, I made it with some software to have some music to test with. Here is a video with the whole version kzbin.info/www/bejne/bnjMlZaoj959ipI

[@markyoder9304]

Don't you get weird frequency cancelations out front with the delay and being out of phase?

[@DaveRat]

Maybe check out some of my other subwoofer array vids where I cover the advantages and issues

[@audioquest1]

Nice Dave. I missed a view stuff. Been out of Connection. But will catch up here.

[@DaveRat]

Hey hey Hennie!

[@chaysendreamz]

Hold up, his hard drive skipped? Why wasn’t he using a SSD?

[@DaveRat]

I believe in 2014 he had multiple redundant systems that all failed due to vibration

[@notyourdadsmusic]

Too smart! Who’d of thought that a .1 Ms delay shift would make all of the difference!

[@DaveRat]

Yes and this is an extreme case because adding 0.1 milliseconds moves 24 subs an inch farther away from 40 subs so the impact is magnified. In real life the precision of placement of the subs is not as accurate as the idealized software shows so the impact will not be as touchy That said, changing the time by half a millisecond showed significant differences in the measurements of volume cancellation in real life

[@crud118]

I can vouch for those HSD BattleAxe 21" horns! Best front loaded horn subs I've ever run and super flat down to 25-28 hz!

[@crud118]

I've always been interested in learning more about how horn loaded subs behave in more complex deployments like this, but can never find any info!

[@DaveRat]

Interesting. Yeah, I have never deployed horn loaded sub cardioid arrays. Have not mixed much on them either. I try to avoid them actually as horns tend to be higher Q and narrower bandwidth than reflex and I prefer a very flat , extended bandwidth, not resonant, lower Q designs and then just use more of I need increased volume levels

[@covenantsound6774]

Very much enjoy this format. Thanks @DaveRat . This one hit home as I am in the Birmingham area and I have worked in this arena. In 2020 just at the onset of the COVID pandemic a remodel was started to update the BJCC arena. I was brought on temporarily by a contractor for the removal of the house PA gear. I had on rope experience and rappelling certs at the time. We removed all of the installed/flown speakers and subs. I had some great video of us swinging the EV subs from the upper ring of the arena and landing them on pallets on the arena floor. It is now the Legacy Arena and significantly nicer than back in 2015. Thanks again for committing your time for us who just want to learn more!

[@DaveRat]

🤙👍🤙

[@dracula3811]

What was the feedback from bassnectar? I assume it was very positive.

[@DaveRat]

It was good. Though I personally moved on, I believe my design was used for all future 360 BN shows

[@LA-xr6fn]

That was sick Dave thanks for sharing your mastery on the subject ..

[@DaveRat]

🤙👍🤙

[@keepinghe4235]

hello： Dave Rat teacher！This is a very clever design. What is the software in the video?

[@DaveRat]

Soundvision

[@elliot823]

At a Snoop Dogg concert recently and dang they got down low, clean and balanced. I also smoked a j with Snoop.

[@DaveRat]

Petfect

[@ACoupleStoners]

Wtfuck?! That's incredible.

[@DaveRat]

🤙👍👍