Batman (60's TV Show)--The REAL Reason Frank Gorshin was REPLACED With John Astin as the Riddler!!

[@se9f282]

Frank Gorshin had the physicality, the flailing limbs, the twitches, the hyperactivity, and the best evil laugh ever.

[@anju-andrukat]

..BETTER than the Joker’s….or any Joker so far

[@radicalross7700]

And he looked like he was better shape than Adam West. Good thing for Adam they didn't fight for real.

[@tperson8347]

Frank Gorshin is my favorite Riddler. He redefined how the Riddler should act. As a little kid when I watched the Batman TV show, he was the one (and False Face) who actually put me on edge. He had that certain look on his face when he had those intense moments in his acting. He was daffy & silly, then he'd go deadly serious in the blink of an eye. They all played the Hell outta their character, but Frank Gorshin WAS the Riddler.

[@QClubs]

No one can replace him

[@bernie2231]

Awesomely maniacal laugh!

[@williamwatson4354]

In the comics, the Riddler was at best a second tier villain. Probably third. It was Gorshin that permanently raised his status.

[@rodneymarsden3003]

The whole business about giving away the crime you are next going to commit began in the comics with The Penguin. With the Riddler it really was his thing in these riddles. Why oh why would any criminal not wanting to end up getting caught follow someone most likely to get caught? It never really made sense.

[@markcadieux3445]

Gomez and Morticia both played villains on Batman. Lurch did a cameo too.

[@radicalross7700]

You're expecting sense from the Batman TV show. Just repeat to yourself it's just a silly TV show and relax.

[@johnweber4577]

@@rodneymarsden3003 Wasn't there an early Scarecrow story where he straight up used riddles too? Much like how Hugo Strange was actually the first person shown using fear toxin. Lol

[@rodneymarsden3003]

@@johnweber4577 Hugo Strange did use fear toxin.

[@MrMarkgeller]

Met Frank Gorshin several times when we lived in Westport Ct. back in the late 70s. He was so polite and soft spoken. Real class gentleman.

[@lawb1614]

Nice to hear. In addition to being a great impressionist, he had a terrific natural speaking voice. It was fun hearing him speak during the Star Trek episode he was in, "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield."

[@Bigbadwhitecracker]

I met him when he was touring in On the 20th Century back in the early '80s. I worked as an usher at the theater and he was great! Chain smoker though.

[@creativeguy1138]

I met him at Chiller Con once. I paid him too much money for an autograph, didn't realize I handed him an extra 20. I had already started walking away and was pretty far from him but he shouted to me to come back and he gave me my 20. Honest good guy. I was sad when I heard of his passing.

[@joesimon2018]

Frank was the comedian on the Ed Sullivan show right before the Beatles performed

[@NYRM1974]

Frank Goshin is perhaps the best at playing the part of Riddler. No other actor can capture the essence of the character like Frank Goshin

[@mattyrock2467]

agreed. by far.

[@edholmes1386]

Twice. You skipped the “r” twice. F-.

[@bwtv147]

Jim Carrey.

[@SuperMarioBrosIII]

@@bwtv147 How about George Burns... Frank Goshin portrayed Burns in a forgotten 2005 film titled Angels With Angles. It was also his last film role before he passed and ditto for Rodney Dangerfield.

[@shoresean1237]

Gorshin owned the part. His portrayal still has echoes in every non-comics version. Every time I see the Astin episodes, I think Gomez.

[@kevinmoore4887]

Exactly. Gershin made the Riddler. Its like, "oh Gomez Adams has a summer job." Astin was so good on the Adam's Family.

[@robertcarson141]

Gorshin was the one that could have been done seriously. He had some weight to it where he could be chilling. You could really see his version killing someone.

[@williampennjr.4448]

he sure looked better in the costume.

[@kevinmoore4887]

@@robertcarson141 The villains were all supposed to be a bit comical, cartoonish. Gershin brought a more sociopath edge to the character. He was good.

[@robert_bbiii]

@@kevinmoore4887 that is what I mean. They all were comical but if it was done seriously his portrayal still worked. I loved how he would laugh and then just go dead serious.

[@ballybunion9]

Frank Gorshin's laugh was one of the coolest sounds in the history of the world.

[@jeanetteduda6611]

AGREED!!!!!!

[@diddymuck]

he was impersonating Richard Widmark's performance as Tommy Udo in "Kiss of Death"

[@ballybunion9]

@@diddymuck Thanks for the tip. I'll check it out.

[@SirManfly]

Got shin owned The Riddler, to me Astin’s version sucked ! 🤷🏻‍♂️

[@BBQFanNo1]

I can only see Frank Gorshin portraying the Riddler in the same way I can only see Caesar Romero portraying the Joker. He was born for the part. I'm not lessoning Jack Nicholson' or John Astin as great actors which they are but I about 90 percent always prefer the Original actors or actresses portraying TV or Film Characters than ones later portraying them. Sean Connery will always be my favourite James Bond no matter who else later portrays the character.

[@FerdinandCesarano]

1:48 - Note that the two-part Batman episodes were not aired a week apart. Batman was on twice a week for its first two seasons.

[@markanderson-hc1tz]

Frank Gorshin was the Riddler. Nobody comes close. And he has an Emmy award to prove it. The powers that be at 20th century fox vastly underpaid him for the Batman movie . Meredith and Romero were paid considerably more their roles. He was offended and was not going to return to the role unless he got paid like he felt he deserved.

[@christopherkraft1327]

Yes, Frank Gorshin had a contract to perform at the Tropicana Night Club!! John Astin did a good job but to me Frank Gorshin was, is & always will be the Riddler! Stay healthy & be hopeful 🙂

[@jamesvickers9476]

Was it the same Tropicana that Ricky Ricardo worked at?

[@christopherkraft1327]

@@jamesvickers9476 of course!!! (LoL)

[@edd2771]

Had to be more than that. Stars were lining up to be villains. Why didn’t they just film with another villain if all was well with gorshin

[@TheRip72]

@@edd2771 The Puzzler episode was originally supposed to be the Riddler, but re-written because they were unable to cast Gorshin. I didn't enjoy that 2-parter anywhere near as much as any of the Riddler's. Maybe Dozier didn't either so decided that a re-cast Riddler would work better? Sometimes you don't know until you try.

[@gopherstate777]

Everybody in my family screamed "look, it's Gomez Addams in the Riddler costume"!

[@theoneandonly6431]

I met Frank Gorshin several years before his death. While I never asked about the situation concerning his Riddler and Astin's Riddler, and the reasons why, I will say he was a very interesting fellow. As far as Astin is concerned, he wasn't Gorshin and wasn't trying to be. He did the Riddler with his own take on it, and I still enjoyed those episodes.

[@SirVic42]

Maybe the answer is a combination of the two stories: Gorshin had a nightclub deal that was paying him 5k, and to cancel it he wanted the Batman producers to match that amount.

[@travissmith2848]

Sounds reasonable to me. Kind of a "Work around my other gig or pay me the same as it."

[@AceLM92]

That is the most plausible

[@mikeseppy7163]

I think that you might be right. The average villain was getting 1k per episode, I would have thought about paying it if he could prove the night club contract, he was irreplaceable i.m.o.! Batman was a smash hit in the first season, they should have had some money to play with! I believe that Adam west was getting about $ 5k per episode!

[@nigelwalker6103]

@@mikeseppy7163 West was the lead though so would understandably get a lot more. I expect that if they had paid Gorshin the same then the other actors like Cesar Romero and Burgess Meredith would also have been looking for a payrise.

[@joesimon2018]

5K is a lot in 60's dollars for a "nightclub" gig.

[@gabevee3]

I used to watch Batman since the 60s and recall the two episode arc came on two nights a week. This is why the narrator said "tune in tomorrow night, same bat time, same bat channel."

[@Pat4HUMANITY]

There is yet to be a live-action Riddler that can nearly match Gorshin’s creation. Even the incredible Jim Carrey fell way short.

[@TheNameisPlissken1981]

Actually, I am pretty sure Batman aired twice a week which is why the announcer would say, "Tune in Tomorrow. Same Bat Time, same Bat Channel." So kids didn't have to wait until next week for the continuation.

[@antonnym214]

No one likes to admit it, but in Hollywood, it's ALWAYS about the money.

[@babayaga1767]

yea, these actors, producers, directors, writers, and crews should not worry about their families and own futures, they should just entertain us no matter what

[@atrociousconsequences4432]

"This was due to Frank Gorshin asking for a pay rise for the second season."

[@gouryg4774]

I really think that the truth is somewhere in the middle of both stories. John Astin did a great job with the character. Probably nobody else at the time could have pulled off the character in Frank Gorshin's place. They both played the character very over the top but each one had their own take on it.

[@rogerrousco2921]

@@babayaga1767 lol 😆 most people missed your sarcasm but well put

[@kindnessfirst9670]

Are you saying show business is a business?

[@TheRKae]

The second show of each plot didn't play the week after. "Batman" was an oddity in that the show was on twice a week. That's why the cliffhanger episode would say, "Tune in tomorrow night; same bat time, same bat channel!"

[@Laceykat66]

1:55 - the stories were over two CONSECUTIVE nights, not a week apart. That is why we were asked to "Tune in tomorrow night, same Bat-time, same Bat-channel. " Thank you for this information. I had always heard it was due to creative difficulties and Goshin's nightclub act.

[@pauld6967]

@Laceykat66 You got to the correction that I was going to make. This is why I have gotten into the habit of scroll through the comments before leaving my comment. Rick probably wasn't aware the _'Batman'_ deliberately broke from tradition of having the second part a week later. It was the first and to my knowledge the only non-news, non-soap opera show in the 1960s to air more than once in a week.

[@Laceykat66]

@@pauld6967 I think you are right though does airing more than twice a week MAKE it a soap opera? I am thinking of Peyton Place. 😁

[@pauld6967]

@@Laceykat66 No, no you misunderstand. I was saying that in the 1960s the only shows that aired more than once a week on television were the network news shows and soap operas and maybe game shows. I remember _'Truth of Consequences'_ being once a week but there may have been daily games shows as there are today.

[@bryanhenderson8807]

I had heard the salary demand story before, so it was probably valid. I also remember Frank Gorshin appearing on Star Trek for one episode at around the same time which caused confusion for my then 7 year old mind. No one can top Gorshin as the Riddler, especially not Jim Carey.

[@STho205]

It was the salary demand from that agency (William Morris) Same thing almost happened with Leonard Nimoy in the leadin to S2 of Star Trek. NBC agreed to keep it on after S1 but they said NO INCREASE IN BUDGET...NO RAISES...AT ALL. Nimoy's agent demanded a raise or he'd walk. Justman and Coon said no...and they started screen testing Mark Lenard and the actor that later played Staan as Spock replacements to scare Nimoy into backing down. The agency then contacted NBC directly and finked that Norway Corp (ST staff) were trying to replace Spock. NBC said to Roddenberry's team...are you crazy...without Spock you have nothing. Nimoy got a raise...then everyone got a raise...then Shatner insisted on a raise....and that's why there is almost no new space VFX in S2. Budget was fixed.

[@bryanhenderson8807]

@@STho205 Very interesting story, thanks for sharing.

[@mattyrock2467]

agreed. no one was even close to frank gorshin as the riddler.

[@SuperMarioBrosIII]

@@mattyrock2467 How about George Burns? Frank Goshin would portray George Burns in a 2005 film titled Angels With Angles and ironically the film has never gotten a DVD release. Gorshin died the same year the film was released. ❓🤔🧐📽

[@patrickwilson1459]

Frank Gorshin appeared on Star Trek in Season Three, a year after Batman ended. Just like Yvonne Craig. Julie Newmar appeared in an episode of Season Two which during Season Three of Batman, which is when she left the series and they had to replace the character Catwoman.

[@dougonodera8764]

“There are 3 sides to every story: Your side, my side and the truth...” Frank Gorshin was the one and only Riddler. Period. I didn’t realize it was only 2 episodes for John Astin. Thanks Rick!

[@ricknineg]

Doug Onodera exactly, and it’s great to hear all the nuances and sides to every story

[@runequester6834]

@Enzo 1965 I vaguely remember it.

[@m.j.c.6969]

The contention that any actor owns the role or "is" the role is jarringly idiotic on it's face. People who write things like this clearly have significant problems dealing with everyday reality because everything becomes magical contests to them. Pitiful!

[@AK-Drakoin]

@@m.j.c.6969 there IS one and only Mona Lisa and only Da Vinci could have painted it as the Mona Lisa was painted . The artist is endowed to their work of art and acting is an artform

[@m.j.c.6969]

@@AK-Drakoin They're "endowed" to their work? What does that mean?

[@bastardjokemen8518]

“Hey it’s Frank Gorshin’s birthday. He was The Riddler, you know.” - Hank Hill

[@cherylsHTX]

Gorshin is THE Riddler. It's funny, Frank Gorshin was in a Disney movie called That Darn Cat back in the 60's. It's one of my favorites. I can't watch him in it though without imagining him as the Riddler. Thanks for this, Rick!

[@dfulce]

Met Frank 5 times in the 70s and several times later in the 2000s. ..When I first met him in 76 I asked about being replaced, he said he had a Vegas Commitment and the producers didn't want to delay production of this episode...He had no ill feelings about it..He asked me whom I thought was a better Riddler, him or John ? No contest I told him, but John was the definitive Gomez Addams ! Frank was a great guy...just that damn smoking !

[@TaiChiGhost]

John Astin radiates kindness, he always did. He can portray "kooky" like no-one else, but he just can't pull off any degree of meanness. Frank Gorshin portrays a villain much more easily. He did it in a comical way, so as not to give little kids nightmares. He was more naughty than nasty. Astin was great in "Evil Roy Slade."

[@every1665]

Evil Roy Slade - one of the greatest and most under-rated (and generally unknown) comedies ever.

[@StanTheObserver-lo8rx]

I laughed at Evil Roy like I NEVER had at another movie as a kid. Or since. Well,where's Papa was funny too...

[@StanTheObserver-lo8rx]

@@every1665 I thought his "Ani-mules" was the funniest thing I ever heard at 10.

[@rynehall9990]

😮 only I have ever heard of Evil Roy Slade...that goes double for The Brothers OToole.

[@liverush24]

Gorshin always played it like The Riddler was on amphetamines. All that manic, nervous energy. Great. John is great in everything else, but Gorshin nailed this role.

[@braintree2]

FYI, as of this moment, John Astin still breathes at the ripe old age of 92.

[@saints093]

Frank Gorshin will ALWAYS be the one and ONLY Riddler on the Batman live action TV series, I saw the two part episode with John Astin as the Riddler, but it just wasn't the same not seeing Frank wearing the Riddler costume though, looked odd seeing John wearing the Riddler costume

[@johnmcmaster5810]

One of my stupid asshole teachers claimed never to have heard of Astin, whilst discussing "Batman" with me. Was going to call him that to his face, but begged off..

[@howlinhobbit]

@Simon Leib -- while I do agree with you about Ms. Newmar, Eartha Kitt was no slouch.

[@steloneil6699]

Howlin' Hobbit Yes indeed!,.....I was like, wait-a-minute!....yea, definitely Ms. Newmar deservess her iconic status for being catwoman,........ohhhh, but Ms. Kitt without a DOUBT! most DEFINITELY brought a unique exotic deminsion to the character of catwoman!

[@125sloth]

Which is why actors do not want to be typecast as well. Your impression of John Astin reminded you of Gomez in the costume...that is a good point. Astin was trying to avoid that all his career, and trying to shake off the "Gomez" label. He wasn't against Gomez as such, it did his career the world of good, but it is when actors want to diversify later, the public often cannot release their thought process from the characters they are familiar with. Fred Gwynne as Herman Munster was a similar situation. He could not shake off the Munsters character with the public in the future. Sorted it out eventually, but he was never appreciated for the diverse characters he could play.

[@ianman15]

I had the honor of meeting Frank Gorshin. We were able to have a one on one conversation. He was a true gentleman...polite, respectable and sincere.

[@ricknineg]

Incredible experience

[@l.a.gothro3999]

I like best your end message! It's really great to hear your positive attitude, and I hope you take time out for self-care every day!

[@passwordbosco407]

Gorshin's impersonation of Burt Lancaster on the Dean Martin Celebrity Roast kills. He about had Martin and Don Rickle's falling out of their seats from laughing so hard. Brilliant entertainer.

[@RegenerativeHomes]

Frank Gorshin's Riddler was an impression of Richard Widmark as gangster Tommy Udo in 1947's Kiss of Death, a character known for his high-pitched laugh. Gorshin, known for his impression of dramatic actors, did Widmark's Tommy Udo in his nightclub act.

[@richarddecredico6098]

he was one of the best impressionists ever. Far better than Little.

[@TheJthedog]

I believe it might of been a little bit of Both: I think the nightclub deal was legit but he could of had a way out but knew he would probably be taking a risk with it so he basically wanted them to give him some compensation because either he’s going to lose a big pay day or he wanted this risk to have some guarantee brightside

[@dennisdeleo74]

Astin was fresh off of The Addams Family and fresh out of work...Worked out to ABC's advantage...but Gomez was still fresh in America's mind ,so to the average 8 year old, like myself, (an evil)Gomez was back...and after Gorshin came back, Astin jumped into the Phyllis Diller Show, also an ABC show, and played a shifty version of Gomez, but even that couldn't save that show...and don't forget...two years prior to Gomez, a mustache -less Astin starred in "I'm Dickens...He's Fenster"...also on ABC...So Astin was on ABC's payroll for a decade. You know Rick, Astin is still around and lives in New Jersey... Why don't you arrange an interview ? Us fans would love it , I'm sure!!!

[@loginregional]

I loved "I'm Dickens, He's Fenster" KAFF KAFF -- gettin' old.

[@dadoctah]

@@loginregional Starring Patty Duke's future husband and Shirley Partridge's future husband (as well as the actress who played Dr Bellows' wife on I Dream of Jeannie).

[@jordil6152]

Here! Here!

[@zoperxplex]

Astin also appeared on another A.B.C. program in the seventies entitled "Operation Petticoat".

[@dennisdeleo74]

zoperxplex Oh yea, I forgottaboutthat!

[@stebaer]

I met Frank Gorshon at a SupermegaFest Show in My Hometown and he told me that he was on Vacation John Astin did a great job filling in for Frank and even if he doesn't look like him.

[@laurabeane8862]

I'm a John Astin fan. I love him as Judge Harry's Dad in "Night Court": "But I'm MUCH BETTER now..."

[@Bigbadwhitecracker]

Now that was a part he was damn fine in.

[@mcgannahanskyjellyfetti6854]

...me too! ~RIP Harry Anderson~

[@richarddecredico6098]

EVIL ROY SLADE

[@ComicBookGuy420]

Massive fan of his work in Adams Family, but Frank was always Riddler

[@kmaru80]

Is that the one where he breaks down and starts quoting the 3 stooges? Amazing how those moments can stick with you..

[@joeblow9210]

Gorshin was so great in the role that he probably did ask for the salary increase. Astin had wonderful comedic skills, but the character belonged to Gorshin.

[@geeked-outturtlesfan4288]

Frank Gorshin is the only true Riddler in the 60's Batman tv series. The laugh, the quick sporadic movements.... Everything.

[@troyfunk5578]

Frank Gorshin's Riddler was WAY more unhinged than Cesar Romero's Joker. By far. 'Nuff said!

[@Irisheddy]

Frank Gorshin said people use to come up to him and say "I loved the way you played "The Joker" on Batman. He had to correct them all the time.

[@bradsmack1]

Loved those crossword t-shirts (Across & Down)---character names, I'm guessing!

[@howardkerr8174]

I wasn't a regular viewer of Batman, so I often confused The Riddler with The Joker. I would have to watch an episode for a few minutes before I could figure out which of the two was the villain that week.

[@thefonzkiss]

Gorshin had an Emmy nomination for s1 and he thought he deserved more money. He came back in s3 for the same money but they were only single parters not double parters so it was half as much work. As others have said, The forgettable s2 Puzzler (Maurice Evans) episodes were changed from a Riddler story because they couldn’t come to financial terms with Gorshin. This is all well known in fan circles and the correspondence you mention has leaked. It’s on the batman66 forum.

[@mikeface1]

They also came up with “The Puzzler” played by Maurice Evans who is very very similar to The Riddler to fill in for Gorshin’s absence.

[@moubear32]

Truth be told though. Maurice was just good at everything. I love his acting mostly because you can tell he comes from a Shakespearean background. I could listen to him talk forever.

[@Scyllax]

mikeface1 The Shakespeare-Spouting Riddler Rip-off was Superman’s adversary in the 1950’s. He was not created for the series.

[@pauljoyner4338]

Dr. Zaius. End of story

[@ETH5626]

From my understanding, The Puzzler is a former rogue of Superman from the comic books. I mean really? They couldn't even use Arthur Brown or the Cluemaster, a criminal mastermind enemy of Batman for that show since he made his First Appearance in Detective Comics #351 (May 1966)

[@williampennjr.4448]

The Puzzler is a real character. Not a fill in.

[@stevehoch9528]

John Astin replacing Frank Gorshin was definitely a money move. John was good in his appearance but it was too late. The role belonged to Frank, who was an extremely talented man. I've seen clips of his stand up comedy routines that are hilarious even today. He should have been a way bigger star than he was.

[@antoniosantorini9355]

As a kid when I saw the advertisement for the following week and they showed john Astin as the Riddler I was devastated , Frank gorshin was the Riddler , he was one of the reasons I watch the show those characters were great

[@charlesrosenberg8233]

Actually, it was money. What most people don't know is that the Puzzler episodes were originally supposed to have Riddler as the villain. When Gorshin couldn't come to terms on pay, the story was rewritten and Maurice Evans cast as the Puzzler. Astin wasn't bad, but he wasn't the Riddler. Frank Gorshin had the physical comedy that made his Riddler unique.

[@jons.6216]

Ohh, Rick! You made one slight error in your narration and that was saying that the second part of the episodes would be shown the following WEEK! These shows were made to be played over two days - Wednesday and Thursday I believe! This is why the narrator would say to "Tune in tomorrow, same bat channel, etc.!" I never got to see them on air originally that way, but this was explained later! Your track record is still unmatched in great facts, though and thanks for another great video!!

[@r0kus]

I was about to make a similar comment. The pairs of episodes would air in the same week. I believe it was Tuesdays and Thursdays, though. While I'm old enough to remember the show as it originally aired, I'm also old enough to forget some of the details.

[@ricknineg]

Thanks for spotting that error. You are correct. I will update that in the description below

[@markmaciag235]

It was originally aired on Wednesday and Thursday. Never missed an episode.

[@RSEFX]

Others have already pointed out that the show was aired two consecutive nights, Wednesday and Thursday. I only am commenting to clarify--positively---that the show aired Weds&Thurs., not Tues-Wed, or any other combination of 2 days. I was first year college when the show first aired, so I remember that very distinctly.

[@WaltANelsonPHD]

I recollect Tuesday night and Thursday night being the schedule for this show. Some stories would have the first part on Thursday and the conclusion on the following Tuesday. "Tune in next week. Same Bat time, same Bat channel!" I only watched the first season regularly. Anyone can disagree with my recollection. No problem.

[@raiderjohnthemadbomber8666]

Frank Gorshin told TV Guide that he was only able to do "the laugh" on days over 80○F.

[@pandarush.]

Ahhh...Frank Gorshin. When I mention his name to anyone, I get a blank stare. I adored his talents to perform perfect and hilarious impersonations on the Ed Sullivan show. He impersonated the legends to a T. He was handsome, too! He was the one and only Riddler.

[@garyfisher2015]

I remember seeing that Ed Sullivan show too. Frank was amazingly great! So well done, way better than Rich Little..

[@pandarush.]

@@garyfisher2015 Hahaha, forgot about Rich Little. Funny impressions of Richard "Tricky Dick" Nixon!

[@nicoleknight9412]

Gorshin had a flair for the dramatic as well, as he was in the "Star Trek" episode, " Let This Be Your Final Battlefield", which I see as an alligory about the folly of prejudice. Fun Fact: Exec. Producer William Dozier was the narrator on "Batman".

[@mcgannahanskyjellyfetti6854]

*ON A SIDE NOTE:* John Astin turns 90 in 14 days...🎂

[@ZuluLifesaBeech-]

Darn! He is still alive. Wish I had a train set to blow up in his honor🚂

[@hawktalon7890]

I'm glad he's still kicking.

[@johnbockelie3899]

An actor has the magic of being anyone they play. But John Astin was fresh out of his Gomez Addams role to be the Riddler, so basically he was Gomez in the wrong show. Like if Frank Gorshln was playing Gomez.Addams. in all an awkward Batman episode.

[@dwlopez57]

John is the last remaining Male arch villain still alive as of April 2020.4 women are left Julie Newmar, glynnis John's, Joan Collins and Barbara Rush. John would have been a good Riddlet but people were used th Frank's version so didn't readily accept the change. When I first saw Gorshin as the Riddler my 1st thought was that any kid that acted like that would have been locked in psycho ward

[@masonbricke4568]

John Astin was Gomez Adams, even in the Riddler's green costume. Just as nobody else was Gomez Adams, so also was nobody else the Riddler. Frank Gorshin owned that role. His portrayal was iconic. After he performed, there simply was nobody else. When Gorshin's Riddler appeared in a scene, people stopped watching anyone else, including Batman. His performances were strangely compelling, unlike any other character on the show. Until Jack Nicholson's Jack Torrance in The Shining (or the Joker in Batman), Gorshin's Riddler was the very face of giddy, malevolent madness. Nobody could top him, then or now.

[@juliemitchell3794]

Astin has a unique way about himself but he's no Frank Gorshin.

[@m.j.c.6969]

It's simply because he played it first. If Astin, or any other actor played it first, then the next actor seems dissimilar and wrong. Gorshin wasn't magical either.

[@edwinstovall3334]

I want to make a correction. "Batman" did use cliffhangers, but they were not separated by a week. Instead, the first part aired (on ABC) on Wednesday, then the other part aired the next day on Thursday. I was a kid in the 60s; I watched that show EVERY WEEK!

[@theloyalorderofclassictv5435]

Well, there's actually a second (or first, chronologically) replacement - The Puzzler, played by Maurice Evans (Who by this time was reoccurring on "Bewitched" and this was about a year before "Planet of the Apes) Was a Riddler Script rewritten while the Gorshin-Dozier situation was being played out.

[@MoshTMA]

yea though Puzzler ended up being more like a Bookworm-Riddler hybrid with how they made him obsessed with Shakespearean literature. they even use the bookworm music theme in the puzzler episodes.

[@halfigliulo1019]

Actually the episodes were designed for 2 a week. First part of an episode was a cliffhanger. It was Wednesday night. 2nd part was Thursday. This was 2 seasons. The third was weekly.

[@SidJustice1]

Frank Gorshin was defining as the ‘Riddler’. Astin did a decent job, tho.

[@Mysterwright]

Sounds like a bit of both. Can't get out of the nightclub gig so to cover themselves Frank's agents asked the TV show for an impossible amount to force them to release his contract for those episodes. And then he came back again.

[@carmelopappalardo8477]

Frank Gorshin was the man when it came to the Riddler. I still remember that first episode with him. The Derby the cross the gun that was a lighter.

[@davidyoung5114]

I saw an interview with Eli Wallach, who said he was paid $800 for his one-time appearance as Mister Freeze (the third actor to play the part), which works out to around the $5000.00 in today's money that most guest actors are paid for a one-time appearance on a TV show (according to Michael J. Fox, who said that's what he got paid for his first appearance on THE GOOD WIFE). It seems to me that the BATMAN producers called Gorshin's bluff, and his subsequent paycheck, while probably larger from when he started on the show, was nowhere close to what he was demanding.

[@wearewinnipeg]

John Astin did a decent job in the two episodes. That being said, there really can be only one Riddler - Frank Gorshin.

[@mattyrock2467]

yep. no one else comes close.

[@ANDROLOMA]

I didn't know John Astin did that. What's really amazing is that he's still alive.

[@willieholmes1483]

I always thought Gorshin’s portrayal of Riddler was what Cesar Romero’s Joker should have been.

[@dwlopez57]

I agree Gorshins probably the only one who could have equaled or topped Romero. There's a short clip from the movie of both Riddler and Joker laughing if only they had had the foresight to make it longer with some Penguin quacks too

[@robjones8733]

Hi Willie, have you seen the joker movie with Phoenix? I'm afraid to watch 😬

[@brucesmith3740]

romero was perfect, imo

[@willieholmes1483]

@@brucesmith3740, Romero was about as frightening as Ronald McDonald.

[@willieholmes1483]

@@robjones8733, I saw it and liked it. However, like with Heath Ledger, Phoenix’s character isn’t the TRUE Joker.

[@Proteusbound]

I heard Gorshin bet his Riddler suit on an aces high full house, but Astin took the hand with 4 kings. Feeling bad about winning, Astin shot him a game of billiards to allow him a chance to win back the costume... He lost. Next they played darts, but it wasn't his night. The final nail in the coffin was depressing for Gorshin as he saw his crushing rock, smothered with paper in a two out of three match. Three days later Astin showed up on set in the Riddler suit, and since they had a whole crew standing by on union rates, there wasn't much Dozier could do. The final irony is that the studio payroll sent the check to Gorshin, as his name was still on the contract.. Astin shaved off his moustache in retaliation to the studio, but ufortunately John was up for the lead in Daktari, and when the producer saw his famous lip hair was gone.. they went with Marshall Thompson instead.

[@berliner0]

Proteusbound really never heard that

[@jackgrattan1447]

They should had dressed John Astin in the tailored Riddler suit and derby to make it work, because I think that he looks understandably uncomfortable and embarrassed running around in those tights. A classy guy like Gomez Addams would never dress like that.

[@MichaelTheAnimator.]

I like Riddler just randomly has a mustache in the second season but John Astin had to keep the mustache because he was doing Addams family.

[@deadstick8624]

I believe the producer... it always ends up being about money and this wasn't the only time such a situation took place in Hollywood.

[@JohnSmith-kw9yc]

The REAL reason isn't surprising or interesting, just business.

[@MidnightDStroyer]

I think there's no coincidence that in the movie Batman with john Carey as Riddler, he played that part with the same manic energy as Gorshin did in the TV show. Frank Gorshin was the Riddler & he made the unequaled standard for the role, no doubt about it.

[@tropicvibe]

I remember both very well and although John did a really good job I think Frank was the one who defined the role. His insane giggling to serious demeanor was priceless. Another thing was how nimble Gorshin was at times as he seemed to be able to wildly move and jump around effortlessly.

[@TheUluxian]

I had read a story somewhere (take it for what it's worth) that Adam West and Gorshin had gone to a party somewhere, got ripping drunk, and decided to have a contest to see who could sleep with the most ladies (both of them were noted lotharios), and some of the girls were not of age. This was part of what got him axed from the show.. ..Again, it's internet stuff..take it with a grain of salt.

[@pl5624]

I remember an interview with Astin...he stated he was brought in last minute because gorshin had other commitments....and he was only filling in...

[@christyverplank3552]

He’s a class act.

[@rondpert5167]

The way I remember it, each story line was broadcast in 2 parts, on 2 consecutive nights.

[@life02ab]

Gorshin was such an amazing actor and crazy as they come! Always loved his work. Great Vid, Rick!

[@roccodinosantino1474]

When I saw Gomez instead of the Riddler, it was the worst night of Batman I seen

[@moboutmen]

They should have teamed him with Marsha, Queen of Diamonds.

[@notajp]

Gomez and Morticia together again!

[@alanrogers7090]

In many, many interviews with film and television actors, many will state that, "my agent negotiated a better pay rate than I expected from that part." Which means that Mr. Gorshin might not have known about the agent's request for a pay raise. I remember those times, and especially Mr. Gorshin, as he was a Pittsburgh native. Being from that area, we always looked for "local" talent when watching television or movies.

[@kevinschofield7864]

frank gorshin will always be my favourite riddler of all time

[@joeygiannini7904]

There was another episode during the second season that was actually a script meant for the Riddler that was then changed to the Puzzler, played by Maurice Evans, during Christmas week in 1966...

[@jamesgrassia844]

Frank Gorshin, but John Astin held his own. I seem to favorite Gorshin's story.

[@SmallSpoonBrigade]

John Astin is good at pretty much whatever he does. I loved his turn in Brisco County Junior, the part was probably written for him.

[@MochaDaisy8645]

Totally agree! I found those to be lousy episodes but that’s just me

[@albertwells8503]

It’s impossible to speculate about the specifics. But if I had to guess, Dosier’s version is probably much closer to the truth. Producers will always try to stay within budget.

[@DodiTov]

During that time frame, Gorshin was primarily a stand-up impressionist. Those were at their peak then. Such performers as Rich Little, Frank, Rob Schneider, and others were in high demand. The premise of the Batman series was guest spots for high paid performers to add to the kitch of the pop culture. Many of us tuned in to see which artist would make a surprise appearance that week. Batman gave Gorshin the opportunity to show his acting chops and branch out into other roles. Given that he had just appeared in Star Trek, his demands for more money were entirely justified. Batman was making money hand over fist because of the style, and Gorshin was a prized player. Astin was not the only "replacement" actor in the series, as you know. Julie Neumar was forever Catwoman in the same fashion. Lee Merriweather was an adequate replacement, but the character was never the same. Even Eartha Kitt as Catwoman was a success, so the producers thought they could simply replace Gorshin as they had Neumar. To their surprise, it went over like a lead balloon. Gorshin forever cemented his place in that show after that, giving Romero and Meredith their bargaining chips.

[@kimedmond5377]

Dodi Tov Rob Schneider didn’t do anything til the 1990s Dunno where you think he fits in to this situation

[@shermanium7834]

@@kimedmond5377 i think he meant Bob Newhart haha

[@randyjordan5521]

@@kimedmond5377 Probably thinking of John Byner.

[@Tzvi092]

correction: When originally aired, Batman episodes, written as two-parters, that aired, NOT over two weeks, but rather one night after the other; Wednesday and Thursday at 8 pm Eastern. Perhaps by the time you saw them they were in weekly syndication but the original broadcasts were two consecutive nights.

[@daltexasone]

Thanks for the information. I always wondered what happened I agree 100% with your perspectives.

[@gabrielhalston6726]

Salary disputes have often caused the disruption of character appearances in TV series. As an example, Don DeFore and Whitney Blake of "Hazel" were dropped from the 5th and final season due to salary disputes. The first 4 seasons were on NBC, but was switched to CBS for the 5th season and CBS didn't want to pay. The dropping of DeFore and Blake greatly disrupted the immense chemistry that existed in the 4 previous seasons between all the actors and the show (in my opinion) was never the same. Shirley Booth elected to end the series at the conclusion of the 5th season. Therefore, I'm inclined to believe that a salary dispute had something to do with Gorshin's absence on Batman.

[@zardox78]

His new agents were bad at dealing. They probably expected to settle for considerably less than that, but they started way too high. Any time you're trying to make a deal with somebody, if you start out too unrealistically greedy, you run the risk of insulting the other party to the point where they'll get up and leave the table just to spite you.

[@timl1977]

They had 3 cat-women, 2 Mr Freezes, and 2 Riddlers ...that's just how they rolled

[@ricknineg]

Yes but correction, 3 Mr. Freezes

[@VeryGerryNYC]

Love your positive words at the end. Your passion speaks volumes!

[@michaelmcchesney6645]

I can't see any reason for William Dozier to lie about the reason if it was really just a scheduling conflict. On the other hand, I could see Frank Gorshin possibly being worried that if people knew it was a salary dispute they might think he was greedy. Of course, if people might think that about Gorshin they would definitely think it about Dozier. Yet, Dozier told a story that might reflect him in a bad light. Why would he say it if it wasn't true?

[@stevesmith8484]

Gorshin was the best, the subtle changes in voice when speaking, up and down tones really made the character crazy as he was supposed to be. I think it was money, but there's nothing wrong with getting that. I have a question. Who did they audition for Catwoman after Julie Newmar couldn't do it. Was Eartha Kitt always the first choice or were others. Same goes for Batgirl. Do you have any info on that. Great channel, Keep it up. Cheers, Steve

[@johnnhoj6749]

Having had some dealings with agents, the demanding more money explanation is extremely plausible. Apart from anything else, why wouldn't the producer just agree that unfortunately Gorshin wasn't available if that was the case? It doesn't reflect badly on either of them. It's entirely possible that the agent either didn't tell Gorshin at all about the increased demand or talked him into it, stroking his ego and telling him how the show could afford it.

[@allenhuddleston4616]

John Astin also starred as the captain of the tv series based on the movie Operation Petticoat called " in the Pink " . he gave a great interpretation of the Carey Grant role . A young Jamie Lee Curtis portrayed one of the rescued nurses . Thanks for posting this story . I never knew about him filling in as the Riddler .

[@dianetheisen8664]

I don't remember John Astin as the Riddler. Having said that, I can certainly believe that Gorshin wanted more money 💰.

[@jettsoma]

I don’t know the reason, but Frank Gorshin was much better.

[@BenjaminGessel]

Manic. Energy. 😁😁😁

[@raymondgerlach3148]

I agree wholeheartedly. And I saw him on The Tonight Show a couple of times. He was a great impressionist. Like his Kirk Douglas impersonation was spot on.

[@jettsoma]

Raymond Gerlach I did, too! He was great!

[@pmdk1953]

I can understand that they had to find another actor for The Riddler in tis two-part episode. With all due respect to John Astin whom I absolutely love as Gomez Addams, he somehow wasn't right for the part of The Riddler, that was Frank Gorshin's part.

[@TheGuyMullins]

Astin is a great comedian... he was awesome... and of course, we were already into our original Joker mode... it gives you a lot of questions when you are young... Astin did a fine job.

[@falcon664]

The Batman series was not sequential. Though two episodes were linked, they were independent of the others. Therefore, if Gorshin had another commitment, the Joker episodes could have been shot at another time. I think Gorshin wanted too much money, the producers weren't going to pay it. In the end, its likely the producers recognized Gorshin was better in the part and perhaps Gorshin compromised on the fee.

[@larrysmith937]

Okay since you're talkin about The Addams Family, Carolyn Jones who played Morticia, was also on the Batman series as the villainess Marsha Queen of Diamonds. Lurch also made an appearance via the window scene. So there is a total of three actors that did crossovers from Addams Family to Batman

[@thomaswalters4927]

I heard somewhere along the line that Frank Gorshin had chronic health problems, even then, and that illness was the reason.

[@Jared_Wignall]

I remember hearing something about money being a reason why Astin replaced Gorshin for the second season. I’m sure there may be some truth to Gorshin being tied up with other commitments, but the money situation could have been a big reason why he wasn’t able to play the Riddler until the following season. It’s quite likely they made a deal that would make everyone involved happy monetary wise for Gorshin to return. Astin did a fine job for what he had to do in the episodes as the Riddler, but Gorshin will always be the Riddler to me.

[@stefanosprokopis6974]

He needed more money for cigarettes. He had a few parts in the movie 12 monkeys and every scene he is smoking. The man could finish a cigarette with one draw according to Adam West. The guy was brilliant. He was also on Star trek on the episode he was painted half black half white and he did stand up, impersonatiins.Amazing talent.

[@johngean4034]

Frank gorshin is the Riddler but if he never played The Riddler to begin with and John astin started out as the Riddler John would have been very convincing as the Riddler just because he was so bizarre.

[@ronaldschild157]

I remember when "Gomez Addams" showed up as The Riddler and it totally blew up my 7-year-old world view! All I could think there was a horrible mistake or Frank Gorshin was killed or gravely ill. I like John Astin (BTW, he's still with us at 90-plus years old, and teaching acting classes at his alma mater) and love his Gomez but he was out of his lane with Riddler. He didn't even get rid of the moustache for the role! Gorshin was THE Riddler as Astin was Gomez Addams. It would be like if Burgess Meredith was replaced by George Burns to play Penguin. As to what happened with Frank Gorshin and the show, I think it was a classic game of chicken: Gorshin wanted more money (justifiable in my view), the production company balked at the demand so they tried the role with someone else. Both parties lose in a big way and realize it, they agree to talk, and eventually hash out a compromise deal. A latter-day version of this happened with "The Dukes Of Hazzard" when the two leading actors held out for more salary when the show was at its peak. That show's producers tried to go on without the two actors, hired look-alike replacements, and claimed the true star of the show is the car, The General Lee. It went one for a few episodes like this, the plots were now perceived as too contrived by viewers, the two parties went back to the table and hashed out a deal - and then wrote a hackneyed storyline bringing the two original stars back and sending the replacements on their way.

[@Zacdawac]

I knew Frank Gorshin and while he was a generally nice guy, he was the cheapest man in creation. He used to go into Sardi's and drink at the bar while he waited for his car to come, when he was playing George Burns in a one man Broadway show, right next door. He once tried to con me into paying the bar bill that he had apparently accumulated for a while. The word was, he wasn't very well liked in the business. I could see him trying to hold up the producers for as much money as possible and then relenting and going back to the standard guest salary when he realized he wasn't indispensable.

[@filmsforfred]

I don’t know the reason, but Frank Gorshin to this day is my favorite Riddler. I think he set a level that Astin (even with enough preparation) could not perform at.

[@dhenderson1810]

This is the full reason I heard, plus some rumours. Gorshin played the Riddler in eight episodes of Season 1 (4 2-parters). I heard that there were two pay structures on the show. One for the main cast who worked every episode (West, Ward, Napier, Hamilton etc) Then guest star villians got paid per episode, so, for example, Burgess Meredith was paid for the eps he appeared in as the Penguin. I heard that, after the first season, the Emmy Awards were on, and Gorshin got nominated for best supporting actor for the pilot episode two-parter. He was the only one nominated for the show. When the second season came along, the Emmy nom went to his head, and he wanted a huge pay rise (as much as the main cast made each episode). The producers, instead of firing him, or him quitting, just didn't use him, since, if he didn't appear, he couldn't get paid. So instead of being paid more, he got paid nothing. The nightclub thing doesn't wash for two reasons. Firstly, Gorshin didn't appear in any season 2 episode. So they weren't all nightclub commitments. There were 66 eps in Season 2, and many different stars used (it was like a Who's Who of Hollywood), yet Gorshin didn't appear once. Secondly, the eps are filmed months before they are shown on TV, so they could have just moved the order, and filmed his ep when he was available. But they deliberately replaced him with Astin and filmed when he wasn't available, so that they wouldn't have to pay him a pay rise. I bet if Cesar Romero had a nightclub committment the same night of a Joker ep, they would wait until he was available to film it, because Romero wasn't asking for a pay rise. Two 2-parters stand out as "Riddler" type eps. One of the John Astin one "Batman's Anniversary/A Riddling Controversy", and "The Puzzles Are Coming/The Duo Are Slumming", which had the villian the Puzzler (played by "Bewitched"'s Maurice Evans). Both of these were originally eps for Gorshin, but they found ways to replace him. He appeared in Season 3 ("Ring Around The Riddler") because the ratings were declining, and they were one ep adventures, meaning that they paid him for one ep, not two (they filmed his phone call to Gordon from the previous ep at the same time, so they only had to pay him once). Also, Gorshin was apparently a "cage-rattler" and clashed with the show's producers and the studio regularly, so that didn't help their cause.

[@ANDROLOMA]

Sounds plausible.