Batmania Day 3 | Batman Returns

[@thatKONNORguy]

When I was a kid I always went to this one over '89, and to this day still don't have found memories of '89, but I have loads of Returns. To me they are both the same quality, this one just gets me where 89' doesn't.

[@donnyst.pierre3820]

thatKONNORguy Do you have any idea why? If you were a Batman fan before this, I'm willing to be it's because you like the Penguin more than the Joker.

[@robertcherryman6906]

I agree with Eric. It bothers me that people act like there are deep themes and ideas in this movie. I enjoy it from a surface level standpoint including some action, set design, music, and performances. However, there is just nothing there in terms of deep themes and the script is total nonsense. People act like Batman Forever was stupid and the two Burton ones are high art. They are just as stupid, just darker.

[@Skute]

Damn that scene Where the batsignal signs on Bruce is something I really love and you guys just slayed it :-/ lol

[@ConnerNielsen6]

This was the movie that freaked me out as a kid. Catwoman carving a square on a dude’s face, Penguin biting the guy’s nose, all the violence and blood, all the crazy people; it got under my skin and I’ve never gone back to it in all those years since I first saw it.

[@therealmanos]

Logan did the commentary with me. While the plot is a mess, I still love this film. With another tighter draft, this could've been much greater.

[@cinemagraphic6324]

therealmanos On that, good sir, I think we can agree! - ToonMobb.

[@johnnyfive222]

therealmanos Yes I agree with you. I still like 89 over this though.

[@therealmanos]

Agreed. Batman 89 is the best of the 90's films.

[@tankgunner9860]

Ah I love the commentary you guys did of Batman and Robin

[@therealmanos]

Thank you! That was a lot of fun.

[@KiramidHead]

I've read the Sam Hamm script, and the only things that carried over were Penguin and Catwoman as the villains and the Christmas setting. Bruce and Vicki are still together, and Dick Grayson appears as an orphaned street kid acting as a vigilante on his own, before being taken in by Bruce. It's not terribly good. I also have an earlier Daniel Waters draft, which featured Max Schreck as Penguin's long lost brother, and didn't feature the death of the firstborn or Catwoman's last minute appearance. The death of the firstborn was added by Wesley Strick in rewrites because WB was worried that the Penguin's evil plan wasn't big enough. Strick, I kid you not, claims that the studio suggested that Penguin could burn or freeze the city.

[@omaridaniels8427]

Even though I'm not watching the films alongside you two, I greatly enjoy the conversation.

[@shaunblake7411]

2:04:00 To clarify yes Batman Forever does have Alfred in a car in the ending but its a deleted scene but it is on the DVD and to clarify Eric's point 2:04:20, Batman Forever was also supposed to have Batman and Robin silouetted on the roof in the same way as Batman 89 and Batman Returns. This was also a deleted scene replaced with the 'running by the Bat-Signal'. The original scene was deleted and was not included on the DVD, but a brief shot of it was included in the video game commercial (though not in its entirety). I have seen some fan edits where people have tried to put those two deleted scenes (the one on the DVD with Chase and Alfred and the video game commercial footage) and then use other random footage of Gotham from either '89 or B'Forever to fill the gaps and slopped Elfman's original '89 theme onto the footage to show how the movie was originally supposed to end (to get as close to it as possible)

[@Iam123-i5j]

This movie was my introduction to batman. I was too young for '89 when it came out and this came out when was 6 and we had it on VHS so i watched it a lot as a kid. Much moreso than 89. Didnt get 89 on VHS until some years later

[@radiofacecomedy]

I really feel like a lot (not all) of the criticisms you guys make, ignore how heightened the film is. Things like complaining the car can boost around a sewer tunnel is assuming a degree of logic that the film is intentionally eschewing. It's a superficial film, absolutely, but a lot of the problems you highlight are only problems because they weren't designed to be analysed with real world logic. It's about broad ideas and interesting visuals before it's about a wholly "logical" or even consistent universe.

[@WowThereBuddy1]

This and Begins are my favorite Live Action Batman films. Begins feels the most like a true to Batman film but Returns works better on it’s own as just a great visually stimulating piece of cinema in my opinion.

[@raynwolfsbane2084]

I love this movie. To me this is the level of dark Batman should always strive for aside perhaps from some of the murder lol. To me Batman works best when you crank up the horror element.

[@bujilou]

I like the part near the end with the guy in the train and all you see is the lightning then the shadow of Batman opening his wings before grabbing the guy

[@justinmitchell2577]

The way I rationalize the leather outfit for Selina Kyle is that she is a huge fan of Grease and went as Sandra D. for Halloween once.

[@ThePonderer]

I really do not care for this movie. Mean spirited is the perfect description.

[@Iam123-i5j]

The Ponderer I showed this movie to my wife for the first time 3 years ago and by the end she was totally put off and disgusted by it.

[@geektopia8024]

Two things that I noticed were related to Moses. The first is the river and basket scene that you guys mention. The second is that Penguin has a list of all of the first born sons of Gotham that he wants to hurt. In the bible there is the plague of the firstborn. I don't know if it means anything. Just something I noticed.

[@nyrobsivad1360]

There are bigger problems certainly but I will say that the tree lighting makes sense. The Penguin challenges the Mayor to host a second one because the first ended with the gang attacking

[@chasblankenship697]

Going off the animal-motif idea, I think if you really want to stretch and go there, you could say that despite there being a Bat, a Cat and a Penguin, the REAL animal is Max Schreck...i.e. Man...he manipulates, he betrays, he murders and all the while, he wears the mask of a benevolent, compassionate person bestowing "unconditional love" for the people of Gotham, adored by everyone when in reality, he's more of a beast than Penguin or Catwoman, wanting to stockpile the city's power and claim it for his own. Like I said, a stretch but that could be the case if you want to paint it in that light.

[@johnnyfive222]

To your complaint about the tree light ceremony. The first one was destroyed when the circus attacked it remember? There just re lighting it. :)

[@Farmeryeti]

I agree with all your points about this movie except for Batman's costume. I've always liked it more than the suit from '89.

[@louiswilson3653]

The score is fantastic and michelle pheifer gives us the best portrayal of catwoman ever imho!!!

[@johnnyfive222]

Really? The best Portrayal? I don't know Julie Numar says hi. As well as Lee from the 60's batman movie. I like those two over Michelle.

[@johanjohansson3973]

Maybe the sexiest, I can admit that.

[@johnnyfive222]

Johan Johansson Not even that. I prefer others over Phifer.

[@stephenwheeler4912]

This is a gothic fairy-tale, with dark aspects of the soul coming to the surface, and all three main characters, are essentially different aspects of revenge on society's injustice, including Batman.

[@tgif1345]

I actually agree with you guys on this movie. It's got great moments in it, like Bruce making fun of Alfred about letting Vicki Vale into the Batcave in the previous movie, but overall it's not a good movie. I also saw it when I was a kid, and I never got through the whole movie, because it scared me so much. Especially the part where the Penguin bites somebody's nose. At least in the Nolan films the heavy violence and dark tone has story reasons for it, whereas in this film, it feels gratuitous and unnecessary. Batman Returns came out on June 19th, 1992, and Batman: The Animated Series didn't start airing until September 5th of that same year, with Heart of Ice airing on September 7th, so Paul Dini hadn't written the episode yet, at the time the trailer for Batman Returns came out, so I don't think anyone not familiar with Batman comics would be thinking Mr. Freeze at that time.

[@spencermalley10]

This is certainly an odd little picture to say the least. I enjoy it from time to time as a Tim Burton film that just happens to have Batman in it but I certainly do understand the gripes fans have with this one (I have quite a few myself). Still not a bad movie by any stretch of the imagination.

[@Johnlindsey289]

What do you think of Batman TAS being a semi-tribute to the Burton films even during production in 1991/1992 when this movie and the series were made back to back even with Selina Kyle's Michelle look and Devito's design for Penguin in the first 3 seasons?

[@tankgunner9860]

Batman returns is one of the most beautiful movies ever made with one of my favourite scores ever. However it's also one of the stupidest CBM's ever made if you think about it. For example Batman is seen murdering thugs all over the film and the cops are ok with it, but hes framed by penguin later on and thats a problem to them? Not to mention Penguin and Catwoman make absolutely no sense, but all the performances are great though Its also the most Tim Burton movie and by that of course I mean, its most style and no substance. I always liked it as a Christmas movie though

[@johnnyfive222]

Tank Gunner so true you said my words correctly about this movie ;)

[@tankgunner9860]

Yeah the police in these movies are all around incompetent

[@tankgunner9860]

I feel like Batman Forever is a better movie than this or atleast its about Batman

[@johnnyfive222]

Tank Gunner That is what I loved about the animated series so much. They didn't dumb down the police at all. They made them a important character in the stories. Like Bullock and Montoya and Gordon.

[@tankgunner9860]

Yeah Batman wasnt necessary because they were incompetent and the Arkham games do that also to a degree

[@nicholasbarber768]

You know what, the Bruce/Selina thing doesn't really work for every reason you mentioned..... But gosh darn it I can't help but like it. Especially that scene at the party. I don't know why, it doesn't make any sense, but I just can't help myself.

[@corbean3]

One thing that's always bothered me is that we get an entire sequence of Catwoman blowing up Shrek's Department Store to smithereens. We never see Shrek's reaction to his store being destroyed. Then Shrek host's a party inside his Department Store where Selina Kyle says "big comfy california king over in bedding" line. It's as if that explosion hadn't even happened. That's pretty sloppy continuity. For some reason no one picks up on that but it drives me nuts.

[@Lady_Yuna]

Bryn Smith Another continuity error when they fought on the roof and Batman is dangling over the side you can see the Shrek building (matte painting backdrop) with the cat mascot still in tact and not destroyed after the explosion.

[@corbean3]

And that takes place directly after! How'd they not catch that one?

[@chasblankenship697]

Well to be fair, the explosion's at street level...that might not have necessarily toppled or imploded the entire building. But you still make a fair point, especially with the ball being held there as if it hadn't been destroyed. I have no explanation for that haha.

[@johnnyfive222]

By the way another complaint I have with this movie. This is not Commissioner Gordon. He would not put the blame right on Batman. He would have second thoughts and would give Batman the benifit of the doubt. Maybe somebody planted it there to frame him? I mean if this was the animated series Gordon or the Nolan Gordon.

[@samjane3500]

To be fair, Gordon came in after the cops shot Batman & told them to hold their fire, he disappeared after that so like everything in this movie, it's completely jumbled.

[@CyborgHorse]

Gordon's in this more than Mask of the Phantasm, which everyone says is the best thing ever. He's literally says one thing in his office and disappears. Interestingly, the climax of Phantasm is ripped off from Returns. Like Sam said, he had his moment stoping his men from firing. He's not quick to turn on Batman like everyone else, holding up the batarang on tv.

[@samjane3500]

But the idiot did put EVIDENCE on public television. So he kinda made Batman look even worse through his unknowing incompetency.

[@CyborgHorse]

he's grumpy about it though, reluctant "purely purely circumstantial"

[@johnnyfive222]

I admit not one of my favorite Batman movies but the soundtrack and atmosphere is great and makes it for me. Plus Christopher Walken? :)

[@cinemagraphic6324]

Ironically, this was the last one in the series that I saw before the Nolan Batman films. - ToonMobb :-)

[@cinemagraphic6324]

11:45 - Hey, Captain Logan. Real Quick. Out of curiosity, do you think that David Mazouz's Bruce Wayne would drive an Audi, a Lamborghini, a BMW, a Mitsubishi Eclipse, a Ferrari, an Aston, or a muscle car? The reason I ask is because Bruce doesn't have a Tumbler yet! And, they also can't seem to get the damn bridge to work! What I really want to know is if it comes in black, or if he would need 20,000 cars up to specification to not arouse suspicion! - ToonMobb.

[@chewbaccaslover1432]

It bothered me that so many people act like this is a better Batman film then Forever, I really enjoy this movie, but it honestly feels the least like a Batman film, even Batman and Robin feels more like Batman then this.

[@johnnyfive222]

Chewbacca's Lover Lol Batman and Robin is really pushing it. But I agree I like Forever in it's own way. It's a better Batman movie then Returns. I have fun with forever and 89 over returns.

[@chewbaccaslover1432]

I'm not saying Batman and Robin is better or even good, but it feels more like Batman in the characters and situations.

[@jman2856]

It helps that Joel was actually a fan of the character.

[@RobbyRayRana]

Chewbacca's Lover Honestly, I may be the only one but Forever is my favorite of the 80s and 90s movies.

[@redguardhammerfell1101]

Same, I've always preferred Forever over Returns&89.

[@evang3676]

I haven't seen this one in years. It scared the hell out of me when I was a kid

[@Mario500NOW]

(note: I had always liked the movie) I had enjoyed listening to a recording of an earlier discussion of the movie involving the Captain (with the exception of the rude language used by the host with whom he was discussing it as part of that recording) after hearing this one (I had heard the earlier one once before (in its entirety)). (the recording of the earlier discussion could be accessed at this address: kzbin.info/www/bejne/sHvdXn2gl72hrpag)

[@HBHaga]

Penguin's birth was almost a Lovecraftian note to the movie.

[@Farmeryeti]

When I've been away from this movie for a while I always seem to think I like it more than I do. Then I watch it again and remember that I only really like the Bruce Wayne stuff which there is next to nothing of in the film.

[@cinemagraphic6324]

1:16:27 - Gee, I wonder if Captain Logan is about to say "If you have TWO villains in a superhero movie, ONE MUST DIE, AND THE OTHER MUST STAY ALIVE!!!" - ToonMobb.

[@redguardhammerfell1101]

Imo, 89 isn't the most overrated Batman movie, Returns is.

[@redguardhammerfell1101]

I completely disagree. I usually see more people hyping up returns than 89.

[@KiramidHead]

Yeah, people like to hail this some sort of artistic masterpiece. Apparently shallow references to German Expressionism and Biblical concepts make it "deep".

[@jokertdk]

Nostalgia aside, I can agree that the Burton Batman films have flaws. And I don't have a problem with you guys highlighting them in this commentary. Having said that, I hope to hear the flaws in the Nolan films highlighted as well.

[@DrMadd]

Say what you will about Tim Burton not evolving as a director but man oh man did his ability to only do the same themes save my life when I had to write about auteur theory for an exam in film studies class.

[@SolarDragon007]

My favorite Danny DeVito role is Frank Reynolds.

[@abombnyy13]

SolarDragon007 that’s all I see him as now

[@SolarDragon007]

MY HOOR WIFE!!!!!

[@abombnyy13]

SolarDragon007 can I offer you an egg in these trying times

[@SolarDragon007]

Brandon Cetta Call me Mantis Tabogan

[@SolarDragon007]

Brandon Cetta I'm so sad they took the series off Netflix

[@bujilou]

KINDA FUNNY when they accuse Batman of pushing the princess, it's kinda believable because he threw joker off an even taller building too 🤔 never thought of that..

[@andresvezamaldes1384]

This film is brilliant.

[@Ultratron563]

not-steve

[@joshgulisano1863]

Lol wut

[@donnyst.pierre3820]

I agree with you on a lot of Batman things but I disagree. Any chance you could explain your thoughts on the film?

[@joshgulisano1863]

Donny St.Pierre this isn’t actually Steve Baxi.

[@donnyst.pierre3820]

Josh Gulisano Damn you're right. Thanks for pointing that out lol

[@Smee319]

I totally get the criticisms about the plot not making sense, but that is true of all the Burton/Schumacher films. I do think it has more merit than you guys give it credit for. You may be asked to sympathize with the Penguin on a base level of him being discarded, but he is a monster through and through. The political satire is not setting Penguin up to be more sympathetic because society shuns him; society is dumb for not seeing he is a monster. A lot of people don't pick up on the suggestion he is already a child killer. The scene where Bruce is researching in the Batcave answers a lot of your questions. Also, I couldn't believe you guys think Keaton and Pfeiffer have no chemistry. They act and play off each other way better than Keaton and Basinger.

[@Iam123-i5j]

I agree with cap with the whole stuffed animals down the drain thing. If messed with me as a kid too

[@samjane3500]

I'm glad I wasn't the only one. It especially disturbed me with the blood & pale crazed eyes Selina, I always skip this scene when rewatching the movie.

[@Iam123-i5j]

Sam Jane my wife saw it with me for the first time 3 years ago and she checked out after that scene

[@samjane3500]

Well damn, that didn't take long. Probably for the best since it would've only confused & disturbed her more. I will give it this, she missed out on a beautifully looking & scored movie.

[@bbsj86]

The extra bats came from the tree, you see them leave the tree. Its dumb but for a different reason than what you're saying

[@cinemagraphic6324]

5:42 - Paul Reubens - ToonMobb.

[@strefanbunney3983]

fun fact: This film was rated 15 in the UK.

[@cinemagraphic6324]

1:16:32 - Like...A...Freaking...G, sir! - ToonMobb :-)

[@KiramidHead]

Dario Argento basically stole this movie's opening for his Phantom of the Opera film, only instead of sewer penguins, the baby is raised by telepathic sewer rats.

[@dylancohran6626]

Could You Do some Commentarys On The 3 1990s Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles Movies

[@donnyst.pierre3820]

I hate titles that mean nothing to the movie but something to the audience.

[@SolarDragon007]

I'll at least give Returns credit in that the title at least makes sense on some level. What the fuck does Forever mean? It means nothing to the audience and even less to that film.

[@donnyst.pierre3820]

SolarDragon007 You're right. That title is worse on many levels.

[@SolarDragon007]

It might have worked if Forever was about Bruce trying to get away from fighting crime and make a more normal life for himself, but in the end realizing that deep down he'll always be Batman no matter what. Damn I wish the movie was about that!

[@donnyst.pierre3820]

SolarDragon007 Yeah. Or even if we explored how Batman is an idea that will outlive Bruce. It's actually a title with a lot of potential. They just didn't explore it at all.

[@SolarDragon007]

It's certainly got more potential than "Batman and Robin". Not only does that title not make sense, it's also lame as hell.

[@McCaffery]

2021 The Binge Returns

[@McCaffery]

2024 The Binge Returns

[@cganimefan1267]

This commentary was really good, but I'll have to respectfully disagree about Batman Returns. I think it's a masterpiece.

[@batfan038]

While I think this movie sucks. It did give us the awesome SNES game so there is that.

[@johnnyfive222]

With a awesome soundtrack.

[@evang3676]

Like 89, the Sam Hamm draft is a better movie. Burton Burtoned it up again

[@BobTheHun64]

The costume guy Bo Welch worked on both this and the live action Dr Seuss films.

[@CyborgHorse]

Bo Welch oversaw the designing of the city and vehicles. His underlings did the actual drawings.

[@danschneider4754]

Aside from all of this film's problems, it's a lame sequel to 89, other then Michael Keaton returning it doesn't feel the same in tone as the first film at all aside from the fact that it's also dark. It's why I never got the the outrage over the Schumacher films, these films never really feel like they where in the same universe going back to Returns.

[@DarkHeroesForever]

It's so good to hear someone sharing my exact same opinion. This movie is insanely overrated.

[@WhatAboutall]

the whole concept of male objectification in westernized societies bug me, when the bulk of the culture is female objectifying themselves. Cat woman in this very movie dresses in tight leather & moan purrs while wielding a whip in an action like she is fulfilling some S & M fantasy. I enjoyed my ignorant bliss as a kid when I wasn't aware of these things.

[@BobTheHun64]

Honestly this film gets as goofy the Schumacher films, it's darker and more violent, but it's about as silly. Even going to some of Catwoman and Penguin's goofy lines.

[@MercerCreate]

you guys are roommates?

[@JustPassingThrough27]

MercerCreate Couple of bum chums

[@ryanhowe5595]

I love this movie, it's so bad it's hilarious

[@thunderingdumbass9135]

This movie is a piece of Tim Burton's shit.

[@johanjohansson3973]

I think this is the Batman movie with the best soundtrack and set designs, but it has no plot.

[@jman2856]

Batman Returns is about as stupid and nonsensical as Batman and Robin.

[@spencermalley10]

Yeesh.

[@bryanuhl124]

I HATE this movie, this is almost as bad as Batman and Robin

[@sodajerkclassic]

Batman Returns is convoluted in parts but still a good movie. It's just not as good as it's predecessor. imho