Batmania Day 5 | Batman Forever

[@ImplicitlyPretentious]

I love how utterly joyful this is, great job guys

[@chewbaccaslover1432]

I'm glad to see other people like this film, it's the second best Batman film of the series. It really gets to me how down people are on this film because of Batman and Robin, especially in relation to Batman Returns.

[@johnnyfive222]

Chewbacca's Lover Agreed I was disappointed that Oliver Harper was way down on it in his commentary and I had to turn it off. I think they were being to negative to the people who liked the movie Oliver and Duncan

[@keirtanaka2929]

2:04:08 - I was actually synced up with CJ which is AMAZING because I actually went back to watch Carrey’s “I’M BATMAN” scene a few more times then fast forwarded to catch up back to em and was miraculously synced|

[@MrMetalheadPoser]

Did anyone else go back to the Doctor Strange video to see Cap break his Riddler cain 😂

[@BriantheWolverine]

When I was a kid the sonar suit was my favorite batsuit because I thought the large black symbol and the grapples in the arms were cool.

[@tiarnanhamill3027]

Forgive me if i'm wrong, but in the attack on Wayne Manor scene, doesn't Harvey flip his coin 3 times; once for the life of Alfred, once for Chase and once for Bruce (where the coin says he gets to shoot him). People always say that he isn't following his own rules but he is, right? Maybe its just because its not clear enough?

[@Vader47000]

Regarding Chase's office: Bruce passes a big CITY HALL sign as he drives up to the curb. So it's probably police HQ in the city's civic center. And she's not taking clients. Bruce is there to discuss the case of the guy leaving clues for him. Given that I doubt Batman would really need to consult the police about the clues, I wonder if earlier drafts of the script made it more clear that Bruce wanted to size up Dr. Meridian after she took such an interest in Batman earlier, and used the clues as an excuse to meet her socially.

[@cinemagraphic6324]

19:32 - A conversation that "just raises too many questions." DING.

[@KiramidHead]

The deleted scene with the book was a little different, actually. He reads the last diary entry, which says that Bruce wanted to see a cartoon, but his parents were set on Zorro, so Bruce learns that it actually wasn't his fault after all. There's also some weird stuff with the shot to Bruce's head making him lose all memory of Batman and him meeting a giant bat in the cave.

[@cinemagraphic6324]

My Definitive Alfred Pennyworth: somewhere in the void between Michael Gough, Sir Michael Caine, Former MI6 Alfred from Beware the Batman, and a little bit of Sean Pertwee from Gotham. Agent, Bodyguard, Butler, Father figure, Ally and Friend.

[@SoftwareAgentsTV]

Joel did A Time to Kill which I thought was pretty pretty pretty good.

[@Farmeryeti]

I guess the eye thing is that "eyes are windows to the soul" and Nygma's brain box looks into your mind/mind's eye/what your heart desires? Gun to my head, it's SOMETHING to do with that? It's real loose though.

[@HunterTechTen]

This probably is my favorite of the four Burton/Schumacher Batflicks. Primarily for nostalgia, but also because it actually tried to be about Batman, even as it gets too messy in tone. Score is great too.

[@natsmith303]

I have a fan theory about that otherwise pointless car chase between Two-Face and Batman in the middle of the movie. Dent is dressed up like a woman slowly pushing a carriage out in front of the Batmobile. When watching this movie back-to-back with Returns, I noticed that it was similar to the scene where the Batmobile nearly runs over an old woman out in the street after Penguin hacked it. So I think that that scene is Harvey's way of saying that he believes Penguin's smear campaign on Batman. Everything that they framed him for, Two-Face blames him for. And after hitching his wagon to Batman at the end of 1989, that comes as a bigger betrayal. Naturally, Dent's quest at this point is to bring down the Bat to make up for his error and protect the city he has fought so hard to save. But it all goes awry when Grissom pours acid in his face. Batman failed to save Harvey. While not great justification for a vendetta, Dent doesn't need much to directly blame the vigilante for his scarring. But now he has been personally affected by Batman. And, as he says later, "Emotion is always the enemy of true justice." How is he to know if he's bringing down Batman out of duty, or out of vengeance? What better resource than an unbiased coin flip? EDIT: This read of course doesn't work if you approach Forever as a stand-alone film, which I otherwise think you should. I'm allowed to be a little inconsistent.

[@Iam123-i5j]

Nathan Smith i really dont viee the Schumacher batman films as sequels to tim burtons batman films. Batman forever feels like an in series reboot in a lot if ways

[@Ryda124]

This was the first Batman movie I ever saw. For whatever reason, this and Returns were the only ones I was exposed to as a child. I used to love Forever with all my heart but growing up unfortunately ruins some things. I still 100% insist that Kiss By A Rose is used in more Batman things. It should've been the opening theme song of Gotham

[@Vader47000]

I was hoping you'd discuss a couple of the key character relationships that tie into the film's primary theme of duality. You were discussing Jim Carrey's hair and mole but didn't seem to pick up on the idea that he was emulating Bruce Wayne. He had Bruce's haircut, glasses and had a fake mole in the same spot. Edward's whole story arc was that he wanted to be Bruce Wayne. Meanwhile, Dick Grayson's whole story arc was that he wanted to be Batman, thinking that was the way he could avenge his family. Two-Face is then the opposite of Bruce/Batman, in that they are both two personas in one man, but Two-Face is just a man split into two, while Bruce/Batman is living two distinct lives that are now starting to clash with each other. That's where Chase fits in, as in dating one and lusting after the other without realizing they are the same person, she becomes the catalyst (figuratively and literally, since she's a psychologist) for Bruce to reconcile how to have a normal life while remaining Batman. Which is the decision he finally reaches at the end. At least, that's my take on it, which I think might have been more fleshed out in the earlier drafts of the script when it was more of a direct connection to the previous two films, before Schumacher and Akiva Goldsman and the studio steered it more toward the goofy comic book approach, which lessened the depth of some of the film's primary themes (which, I would argue, are still there). Also left unsaid in this commentary was that the primary difference between this production and Batman & Robin is that Akiva Goldsman started from scratch with the script, rather than taking over one that had already been there. So the story was basically just the same general beats as Forever, but Goldsman and Schumacher doubled down on the campiness they added to this movie, thinking that's what the studio wanted because Forever made more than Returns. In other words, Batman Forever was a potentially serious film with goofiness added to it, while Batman & Robin was always a campy production where the serious elements ended up in it as a result of trying to apply the Forever template to the story. There's another way I like to compare the two films when gauging the disparity in seriousness. I can't imagine the Kilmer Batman whipping out a Bat Credit Card the way Clooney's does. In that regard, had Batman & Robin never been made, I think it would be a lot easier to see Forever as one of a kind (with some evolution in style) with the two Burton movies.

[@redguardhammerfell1101]

Wow, amazing analysis.

[@cganimefan1267]

The reason that Tommy Lee Jones did the film was because his son was a big fan of Batman. Also, the reason he disliked Jim Carrey was because Jim Carrey accidentally hit him with the Riddler cane.

[@spencermalley10]

Falls squarely into the realm of guitly pleasure for me. The actual foucs on Batman/Bruce Wayne is a welcome relief and the Robin origin story is done fairly well (I don't even mind Jim Carrey as the Riddler) That being said, Two-Face is an atrocity and the films inability to maintain a consistent tone is a problem. It get's a bad rap because of what came immediately afterwards but it's not really that bad.

[@johnnyfive222]

Spencer Malley I actually like the neon in this movie and Val Kilmer as Batman

[@cinemagraphic6324]

14:14 - "THE BAT MUST DIE!!!" written in red on a wall in Two-face's cell at Arkham.

[@mew10521]

I never understood that quote "If you kill him, you won't learn nothing"

[@redguardhammerfell1101]

My favorite 90s live action batman movie!!!

[@dupersuper1938]

Your question about the box isn't "Why does it look nothing like a box?"?

[@tankgunner9860]

This is the first Batman movie that was actually about Batman and Val kilmer is a pretty good Bruce.

[@cinemagraphic6324]

Tank Gunner AGREED. - ToonMobb.

[@johnnyfive222]

Tank Gunner I actually think he is a decent Batman. Like I said he isn’t the problem with this movie

[@DeepEye1994]

Though, after Honest Trailers pointed out how he CONSTANTLY hangs his mouth open, I can't unsee that now lol

[@tankgunner9860]

I like how they go into his psych and comparison to Dicks journey too

[@BTSwithCTS]

Not sure how anyone else feels about the idea; but on the topic of redoing Dick Grayson's origins, I can see something like rewriting the Graysons to be a legendary wrestling family (think the Harts, Rhodes, Guerreros, etc.) that has traveled the world; and collectively, won a record-number of championships across tons of different promotions. Wrestling is a performance art, like acrobatics; and young Dick Grayson would be in line to continue the Grayson family name in wrestling as the next generation of super-stardom.

[@AssyMcgeeee]

Cyber-Troupe Studios Wrestling is fake and stupid.

[@johnnyfive222]

Emma Bos Wrestling is choreographed and wrestlers are very athletic. It take years for them to train for the moves. I respect them more then NFL players who make millions of dollars a year and cry about stuff.

[@johnnyfive222]

Cyber-Troupe Studios I actually like your idea. But how would they die though? Unless he plants something in the arena like a bomb attack or something.

[@Vader47000]

I had the same thought about potentially tying Dick Grayson to wrestling, but then it seemed to hue a bit too close to Sam Raimi's Spider-Man. The easiest thing would be a Cirque du Soleil type show, but another thought that crossed my mind was an amusement park stunt show.

[@cinemagraphic6324]

27:40 - Had this movie actually gone the "Dark Knight" route and started with Riddler only to set up Two-face, and Dent was more serious, as Manos suggested years back, I have a feeling that this would be a much different film. You could theoretically keep the Batman psychology, give Chase Meridian a.k.a. NOT Vicki Vale something to do in the story. Also, I think Logan mentioned this, but I agree that it's weird that Bruce and Harvey aren't established friends. - ToonMobb.

[@Vader47000]

When Batman reminds Two-Face of the coin flip at the end, the Harvey side mentions how much of a friend Bruce always was. So I took that as a reference to the friendship that must have occurred between ’89 and when Harvey became Two-Face after being hit with acid, which I guess is 2-3 years before this (1993 maybe, right after Returns?). It's just since they decided to start with pre-made Two-Face, there was no room for Harvey-Bruce stuff in the script other than a passing reference. I always thought it would make sense for a movie to have Dent get burned by Joker's acid flower, which I think almost happened in the Nolan movies.

[@bryanuhl124]

This is my favorite of the original 4 live action movies. Not the best movie, but a decent movie

[@cinemagraphic6324]

At some point, I plan on making a Top 10 list of Guilty pleasures from the 90s, and this movie is definitely on the list. So, look forward to that, some time in the coming weeks/months! - ToonMobb. P.S. Captain Logan, which Batmobile do you prefer: 89, Forever, the Tumbler, or the Arkham Knight Batmobile?

[@dupersuper1938]

Ah yes, the movie in which Batman adopts a 25 year old man and meets the least professional psychiatrist in history...

[@lordbatman1206]

The giant bat looks amazing!

[@Farmeryeti]

Man, this is probably my favourite Batman movie. I love it to death. It actually came out about a month before I was born.

[@supernintendo6983]

Love this movie and have a special place in my heart for it like Cap does for 89. I saw it in theaters when I was a kid with my dad. Very special to me. Is it perfect? No but damn entertaining and better then returns and Batman and Robin.

[@donnyst.pierre3820]

I always thought the court room footage was one of the older suits.

[@cinemagraphic6324]

Ironically enough, much like Man of Steel was the first Superman movie I saw in theaters, Batman Forever was the first Batman movie I saw in theaters. (It probably should have been the only one). And, like you said at the beginning of your Rewind, Batman Forever is supposed to be a "middle of the road" batman movie, since it's more about Bruce Wayne than the Burton films. You could easily watch 89 and Forever back-to-back and the continuity would be somewhat intact. Regardless of whether or not he's thinking of Jack Napier/Joker, when Bruce tells Richard that killing Harvey Dent won't make things better, you can tell that he's speaking from experience. - ToonMobb :-)

[@lordbatman1206]

CinemaGraphic probably better to go straight to forever than returns Returns is just jarring

[@stroopeproductions9769]

i think Warner bros should release all the deleted scenes for batman forever, with those scenes it would have been a much better film

[@kyledion1346]

It's weird I actually ENJOYED watching Batman Forever this time.

[@omaridaniels8427]

Well, Nicole Kidman WAS just on television last year with Big Little Lies on HBO, so she doesn't shy away from TV altogether at least.

[@Vader47000]

I thought the same thing, but that was a prestige miniseries that was basically shot as a long movie. I think the rigors of an episodic show such as Gotham would be much different for any appearance longer than an episode. The best example I can think of is the original Janeway on Voyager, who was a film actress who snapped under the faster day-to-day schedule of TV shooting, and left after a week, replaced by TV veteran Kate Mulgrew.

[@SolarDragon007]

This movie is the Die Hard 4 of the Burton/Schumacher Batman films. A film that, while not terrible, foreshadows worse things to come for the series.

[@abombnyy13]

SolarDragon007 but it’s still better than batman returns

[@SolarDragon007]

True. I find the aesthetic to be slightly less garish than Batman Returns as well. And I actually like the first Batsuit in this film minus the nipples of course

[@abombnyy13]

SolarDragon007 yeah besides the nipples I kinda love this suit and for all the problems Schumachers batman is the only director so far where batman isn’t killing people left and right even in Nolan’s trilogy he actually kills quit a few people by man slaughter

[@johnnyfive222]

SolarDragon007 i Actually did like the Neon in this movie. It’s Batman and Robin where they over did it

[@johnnyfive222]

SolarDragon007 you got to admit. Nicole Kidman is very hot in this movie. Probably the most attractive she has been.

[@ConnerNielsen6]

“We’re doing something with eyeballs.” “We’re doing something with eyes in this movie.” “Look! There’s another eyeball!” “Look, eyes! Eyes are a thing.” Was Ridley Scott a co-director on this movie?

[@Vader47000]

The scene of Batman trusting Robin to save himself from the fall happens in Batman & Robin

[@cinemagraphic6324]

Show of hands: how many people went to see this in the theaters after being introduced to the animated series? - ToonMobb.

[@natsmith303]

I was about to say that it'd be ironic for Schumacher to write Chase Meridian as a wish fulfillment character, since he's quite openly gay. But a simple IMDb search assures me he wasn't one of the writers. So never mind...

[@raynwolfsbane2084]

You guys had me in tears with the Gordon-has-Alzheimer's stuff

[@evang3676]

Also, if any of the 90's Batmen should come back and be old man Bruce in a live action Beyond, it should be Kilmer

[@Vader47000]

Probably more likely to be Keaton at this point, though.

[@evang3676]

Vader47000 I'd rather they cast someone completely new than bring back Keaton. I'd rather they give Clooney another shot than bring back Keaton.

[@Vader47000]

I just meant Keaton seems like the only former Batman actor to embrace the fact that he played Batman

[@donnyst.pierre3820]

I have three of the McDonald's glasses and I'm missing the Robin and it makes me mad.

[@thedeadpoolchannel1]

Batman forever is amazing

[@KiramidHead]

Funny you compared the box to replicators, just yesterday I watched the DS9 episode where the replicators scramble everyone's brains lol.

[@JefferyEPetrone]

I still have my vhs copy of this movie

[@johnnyfive222]

I still have the original CD Compact for the soundtrack with Seal lol.

[@johnnyfive222]

Okay why do we have to change his origin? Why can't Grayson be the same? I love his origin. Just because Ringling brothers shut down last year doesn't mean that Circuses don't exist. There are more Circuses out there. Just not as famous.

[@Vader47000]

Yeah. I thought only the animal-type circuses shut down. Acrobatics and stunt shows are still a thing.

[@johnnyfive222]

Vader47000 which I still think is bull shit for a lot of reasons. If it was because of animals attacking humans I get it but I loved the circus and I’m Heartbroken it’s not a thing anymore. The dang Peeta members ruin fun. Also you are correct we can still make them acrobats. I still don’t understand why we have to change his origin or that comment. Even if the circus is not around it’s suppose to be a fake comic book world. Why does it have to change?

[@Vader47000]

I think they were referring to how comic book characters tend to be updated as the generations pass. Like how Iron Man and Punisher are updated to fight in whatever the most-recent war is. Batman's origin of his parents being murdered is somewhat timeless and translates to pretty much any time period. But if there's no such thing as a circus anymore, then kids watching a Robin origin film in, say, 20 years might not understand the reference. That's what I think the commentators are wondering

[@johnnyfive222]

As my good friend Jeremy Jahns would say. "This would be a good movie. If you are drunk. Yeah now it's a party. Riddle me this Batman. I'm totally drunk and forgot my riddle." Actually it is a good party movie in a group of friends. Also this has my favorite Batmobile. 89 was great but I loved this car so much. Actually had a model of it and brought the toy. Too bad they blew it up half way threw the movie. Also Val Kilmer was not the problem with this movie. I thought he made a decent Batman and Bruce Wayne. The Studio butted in and changed a lot of what Joel wanted to put in the movie.

[@Ryda124]

I loved this batmobile too until someone pointed out it looks like a penis-simulating adult toy which was probably Schumacher's intention. My beloved childhood toy is ruined for me

[@johnnyfive222]

Demetri J why would it be his intention? Why would it let that ruin it for you? I don’t freaking care I still love it.

[@Ryda124]

His 2 Batman movies are filled with homoerotic imagery so it's not unlikely at all that he made it look phallic on purpose. And now that's all I think about when I see it. You can still like it though, i envy you if thats true

[@johnnyfive222]

Demetri J well I think it’s stupid to not like a movie for that reason. And I disagree I never saw any of that.

[@Ryda124]

I said I don't like the Batmobile because of that. But even so is that really any more "stupid" a complaint than the nipples on the batsuit which everybody else talks about

[@BobTheHun64]

Fun fact, Riddler was originally gonna be played Robin Williams, imagine how that would've went.

[@johnnyfive222]

Bob The Hun Actually probably decent. Remember Robin was a good serious actor as well.

[@Vader47000]

Well, I think the cast was supposed to be Keaton as Batman, Rene Russo as Chase Meridian, Williams as Riddler and Billy Dee Williams as Two-Face. But after they pushed Burton out, Keaton quit and they went younger with Bruce and Chase, and Schumacher liked working with Tommy Lee Jones. As for Robin, I think Burton had cast Marlon Wayans for Returns but then cut the part, though Wayans still got paid for it. I don't know if Burton intended to sign him again for the third movie. Then again, wasn't Williams in line for the Joker too, and then considered for Riddler to make up for it?

[@johnnyfive222]

Vader47000 where they going to bring back jack for joker? But I still like this cast except for Jones he was missed cast

[@Vader47000]

All the rumors I've heard were that the fifth film, the third Schumacher film and sequel to Batman & Robin, would have used Scarecrow and Harley Quinn. Harley would have been Joker's daughter and there would have been a flashback featuring Nicholson, who was reportedly on board with the idea before everything was scrapped after Batman & Robin wasn't well received.

[@nicholasbarber768]

Random thought: seeing as the circus isn't a thing now, how are we gonna reimagine Robin's origin?

[@thedeadpoolchannel1]

I love batman forever it's soo good

[@SolarDragon007]

51:38 Cap drops an F bomb?

[@SolarDragon007]

Gothamyte I think he did lol

[@newt8094]

I kinda like this film. The underlying story is generally solid, including Bruce’s repressed memories and the villains’ brainwave plot. While some of the performances are less than stellar (Jim Carrey and Tommy Lee), the cast is fine overall. Although, I do detest all of Dr. Meridian’s scenes with Batman; she’s far too unprofessional to be believable and I don’t buy her and Bruce falling in love by the end.

[@bujilou]

You guys shoulda all sang along to kiss from a rose 😜

[@mew10521]

Tommy Lee Jones really dislike Jim Carrey? why?

[@jman2856]

What’s Tommy Lee Two Face so mad about? All he has to do is wash off that pink makeup off his face and he’s fine.

[@hyuthestampede]

The Riddler get up made the video, epic Cap :)

[@cinemagraphic6324]

11:46 - Arkham Knight aesthetic, anybody?

[@767scarecrow]

The ooootheeeer caaaaarrr.

[@ConnerNielsen6]

CJ looks like Damien Chazelle

[@donnyst.pierre3820]

Here is is!

[@Iam123-i5j]

I don't buy batman forever as being in the same universe as the tim burton films. The world and batman himself is just too different. To me forever works as an in series reboot

[@SolarDragon007]

I think Forever is the dictionary definition of a "soft reboot".

[@SoftwareAgentsTV]

49:88 8 mm ?

[@1701EarlGrey]

people like this movie? it's very cheesy and it's wasted potential; look Two-face. Also, novelisation was better.