Battery vs. Power Supply!

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Howdy folks, Rig Dr. here, Uncle Mason - today we're talking about the OG isolated power supply, the 9V battery, specifically, carbon batteries. We're looking at how they compare to a normal regulated and isolated power supply, and what the advantages might be of using a carbon battery on select overdrives, distortions, fuzz, and wah style pedals. Additionally, we're going to talk about some technical aspects of the battery and how that differs from a more linear power supply that most of us would use on a pedalboard, and how that impacts the tone. Enjoy! XOXO ~ Rig Dr.

[@vahnrondel]

Wow! Will do the experiment first before i make my own battery psu. Thanks for this very informative video!

[@VertexEffectsInc]

vahnrondel my pleasure! Glad you liked it

[@skweekykleane9810]

Hi, Mason. David here. TOTally appreciate the Vid & gave it a Thumbs UP ! So, here's where I'm at... Realizing pedals have come quite a long ways since the late 70's-mid 90's (my 'gigging' days), was looking to see what's the Latest & GR8est for powering the few pedals I still have, & came across your vid, & now... have questions : Re: a Tech 21 SanSamp TRI-AC OD unit; Specs: *USE DC POWER SUPPLY ONLY! Failure to do so may damage the unit and void warranty. DC Power Supply Specifications: -9V DC regulated or unregulated, 100mA minimum; -2.1mm female plug, center negative (-). Optional factory power supply is available:Tech 21 Model #DC2.* 1) Would your Vertex unit be compatible w/the Tri-AC unit, or, would you recommend finding an original #DC2 adapter ? Re: your vid... Back in the day (late 70's - 90's) pretty much concluded as you shared (batteries for Dist, Wah), finding the same results. 2) Seen your 'I don't plan to make them again' comment, below, & was wondering if you replaced it w/a Newer version, or, if 'that's it' & I got to try'n find a used one ? Kind Regards ! David

[@marcuslewitzki4610]

Isn't it possible to build a power supply that recreates this effect of using a carbon battery?

[@thepatternplayback]

Wow. I didn't think I'd be able to hear a difference but that's undeniable.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

It will depend on the pedal, but these pedals were particularly sensitive.

[@OTownProductionsDJ]

Great power supply. Love my Vertex battery supply. The difference in tone was definitely noticeable in your video. Great job!

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Bigswampbushcraft so glad you dig it!

[@benediktschlereth6070]

Great episode Mason! Finaly someone clarifies this topic in a professional way. Love it!

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Benedikt Schlereth thanks for watching!

[@johntraas1252]

I had no idea it would affect the tone that much...wow! Really enjoying the content, thank you.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Thanks for watching

[@DarkBassStyle]

Also, battery powered OD/fuzz feel different when you play. Glad you posted this, I feel less crazy now 😀

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Mike Ike very true, just not sure how to demo that

[@garthkirkcaldy3808]

I didn't think the sonic difference between carbon batteries and a power supply would be that big... I was wrong, there is a clear contrast. Super interesting video!

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Again, it is dependent on the pedal, not all distortion, overdrive, fuzz, wah, etc. will exhibit these same symptoms, a lot of it is dependent on the manufacturer.

[@garthkirkcaldy3808]

@@VertexEffectsInc Have you found a rule of thumb regarding certain time periods or manufacturers? Or is it very much based on trial and error?

[@D-NastyNoise]

I agree, it seems very exaggerated.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

It’s really trial and error

[@VertexEffectsInc]

I chose examples that exhibited a high degree of variability based on power, this may not be true of all drives and is on a unit by unit basis.

[@RiggsTaylor]

Great video Mason! Loved the side-by-side comparison of batteries and a regulated supply.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Riggs Taylor thanks Riggs!!!

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Odell Mateo ?

[@billtice5057]

This is really helpful and yes Carbon batteries are a real game changer

[@DammitCartman]

the difference is unbelievable. thank you for this!

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Yes indeed!

[@clemguitar63]

Yes, Yes and YES....It's All TRUE people! I have many older and newer reproduction Fuzz and Distortion type pedals that just simply sound best burning on the old Carbon type batteries! That's why last August I bought one from Mason....So easy to use....Built like a TANK, in the greatest country in the world Baby! SIGN UP FOR VERTEX EFFECTS NEWSLETTER!!! This is Not a Paid Advertisement...Just the expressed appreciation of one very satisfied customer! Thank You Mason!

[@VertexEffectsInc]

clemguitar63 thank so much! Super appreciate it ?

[@braxal6983]

Another Excellent video Mason. As always I am learning. This is a great channel. Please continue to educate me. I appreciate it.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Thanks for watching! Super appreciate it

[@LostInAce]

Carbon battery sounds creamy. I learned something old. Great stuff!

[@VertexEffectsInc]

👍👍👍

[@Guitarman19853]

That new intro voice over has me dead every time 🤣

[@VertexEffectsInc]

hahaha! We'll add in a few more soon!

[@PeterEllmanMD]

Man you are answering all my questions. Amazing video!!

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Thanks Peter! Hope we earned your subscription!

[@JeffKeel]

Always such great INFO. Was hoping to make it to summer NAMM and introduce myself to you. The schedule is not lining up. Anyway absolutely Love my STEEL STRING. It's the 1 pedal i can't live without.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

JT Keel Thank you so much! We’re not doing summer NAMM, but we’re always at winter NAMM! Please say hello anytime! We’d love to meet you

[@WesterlySunn]

Wow... I never expected that big of a difference!

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Again this is one snapshot- not all pedals will exhibit this same sonic difference - we chose pedal types and specific circuits that would exaggerate these differences. I recommend trying with your own pedals and seeing what works.

[@jameswedeking4380]

This was great. Mason, you really seem like a stand-up guy. I appreciate that you present competitive products. Shows you have nothing to hide and you're really on the side of the guitar player. Honesty is starting to wane in business today. Refreshing to see there are still good guys out there. Great work!

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Thanks for watching, hope you found it useful!

[@mayaratseyguitar]

Hey James I suggest you do some research on Mason and Vertex and their history in this industry. Not that this video is dishonest or incorrect but I do think it is important you stay informed and aware of the past dishonest business practices, fraudulent pedals and issues Mason has had. I am not trying to riffle up the past but I believe it was an important event/events to be known and I know Mason is transparent about those past issues so you can know all sides to the Vertex company and history and business practices.

[@jameswedeking4380]

I had no idea this occurred. Did some research and red his letter. Looks like he made a mistake. I'll update my statement to "I appreciate you, Mason, for being human."

[@jameswedeking4380]

*read

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Maya Ratsey , We do not attempt to cover up the company’s or Mason’s past decisions. However, Mason has gone to great lengths to build the company’s (and his) reputation back up. Those who were impacted by past dishonest business practices have been refunded. I would like to also mention that these things occurred in 2014. We keep a public record of those who have been refunded on our website; you can go to www.vertexeffects.com/redemption to see it. Refunds are still available for people who feel like they have been deceived by the products we were carrying in 2014. We appreciate your honesty and your continued support of the KZbin channel. Let me know if you have any questions. Regards, Mason Mejia

[@DanRodriguez1]

Amazing how a simple thing can change the sound that much

[@MusicTherapyLaz]

Ok...so I'm totally getting this now! Listening with my Beyerdynamic 990 Pros and clearly more open, live and darker tones on the Tube Screamer ..definitely more dark and mufflely on the Fuzz...and sounded more open and lively on the Wah...but that's my 53 year old ears here...thanks for sharing!

[@VertexEffectsInc]

On some pedals it’s very noticeable

[@jamesman3694]

Great video, very informative. I love the scientific aspect of it. Definitely using Batteries to power part of my rig now, thank you.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Thanks for watching! Be sure to check out some of the cool products to help facilitate this in the description above.

[@PaoloGiacci]

The sonic differences are quite noticeable in terms of frequency response, but most importantly, there’s a huge output level difference. To me carbon battery seems to produce a stronger output level, which, as we know, does affect the frequencies perception of human ear. With drive circuits having the proper output level is crucial for the reason being said and also because of the way those type of circuits are designed. In other words, if you use a power supply and boost the output form the pedal of about a couple of notches you should eventually get a stronger low frequencies content, and also “impression”, that should match the actual carbon battery sound.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

The midrange change and increase treble exaggerate the volume difference, if you look at the dB’s it’s not that different, a few at most.

[@millstap]

Great idea. Actually, I didn't know these supplies existed until recently. I switched back to batteries years ago because I discovered how much noise was being added to my signal with the so-called "isolated" power supplies. And these are safer. I am in the process of repairing a fuzz because someone connected the wrong power supply and fried the transistors.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

I've liked a bunch of products in the description for you to check out that all do this. Please let us know if you have questions!

[@millstap]

@@VertexEffectsInc I appreciate it. I am only using two vintage style effects right now with batteries, a Fuzz Face and a Vox style wah-wah. I just hate it though when I forget to unplug them and they run down pretty quickly if you don't. I have a sign on the door, "Unplug the Fuzz" but I still forget sometimes. I guess all of these battery supplies have on/off switches. You still have to remember though, and if you don't, you wear down four vs. two batteries. Too bad they can't make these have an auto shut-off after 30 minutes of no playing or something. Probably too complicated. I guess you could do it with some type of circuit board but it would drive up the price. I would be willing to pay it if it was reasonable.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

@@millstap The battery power supply would solve that issue. Ours turns off automatically as soon as you remove the power input.

[@millstap]

@@VertexEffectsInc But you have to remember to do that, right? My memory is not as good as it used to be. Hopefully you have the manual online so I can look at it.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

@@millstap yes, you'll have to unplug the power.

[@Thurston86]

Thank you! I have a bunch of older Danelectro Pedals that I use and I swore it sounded different when I put in a different battery! It turns out I wasn’t crazy after all! I was just gonna mention the Battery Billionaire and how I kinda like your Vertex a little more because of the input and metal casing!

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Thanks for watching! Hope you found it helpful!

[@Holtenstein]

Wow, the battery power makes a massive difference. I had no idea it was that different. It's almost like a presence control. I defiantly prefer the battery-powered sound.

[@HHJoshHH]

Great vid bro!

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Thanks for watching

[@johnlucus5468]

Thank you Mason. Another great video. Ive heard of this concept before but didn't put much stock into it. I have to say the difference in those examples was very noticeable to me. Im going to buy some carbon batteries and do some experimenting.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

As I said in the video, it will be pedal specific - not all pedals will exhibit this sound, much is dependent on the manufacturer and how they’ve set up the power supply section of the pedal. Again I’d only try it with your drives, fuzz, and wah

[@rorymcclellan3740]

Ive had a single carbon 9 volt battery in my Analogman Sunface now for almost a year. Im always unplugging the jacks, however there have been times I forgot to and left in plugged in for a whole day before and its still going strong. The battery it came with I believe.

[@JELIFISH19]

If yours has the DC input, you can just buy plugs and plug them in when you're not playing. They disconnect the battery. That's what I do. I got a 10 pack from China for $2 on ebay. That's what I do with all of my vintage-style pedals. It's easier than unplugging the jacks especially if your pedals are on a board.

[@goomanus]

Had a gig last weekend and I used the cheap Panasonic batteries in my pedals (instead of Duracell,Eveready). I noticed a huge difference (to my ears anyway). Couldn’t believe it, had people taking photos of my setup/settings. (Tuner, Dunlop 70th Anniversary JH Wah, Timmy, Ts9 converted to a 808, OCD, Mossfett 2, Voodoo Lab Tremlo, MXR delay) The Wah and overdrives sounded huge with the Panasonic Batt. And didn’t mind being stacked onto one another. Thanks Dr. Mason. Love your work. Cheers.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

shane goonan glad this helped! I would imagine only the drives and Wah would make a difference

[@goomanus]

Vertex Effects Thanks Vertex.

[@enkiea8322]

Wow, the difference it made in the wah-wah was a revelation. And oh yeah, I'm buying that battery supply box. 🤙

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Enki Ea awesome! See links in description

[@bratta69]

Great video and explanation ! You should do one about ohms and correct use of wattage in heads and cabs, no one seems to explain it well, I know this is primarily a pedalboard channel but hey just saying.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

serge aguilar thanks for the suggestion

[@michaeljywang0619]

This is really interesting! My cousin who has played electric guitar for maybe 30 years told me this, but I never really heard the difference (as I don't have any old-fashioned overdrive pedal). Thanks, Uncle Mason, for such a great demonstration of the power of the old carbon battery. Now I have a quesiton: will it make a difference with the active circuits of the on-board preamp/pickups by using different (i.e., alkaline vs carbon) batteries?

[@VertexEffectsInc]

michaeljywang0619 thanks for watching! I can’t speak specifically to the preamps, I doubt it as they’re designed for low impedance typically so they’re not as sensitive- you might just see the battery life decrease when you switch to carbon. You can always try and see.

[@royfulton]

Very informative. Many thanks!

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Thanks for watching!

[@andrefugissawa7675]

Can you make a 2 outputs version for those who doesn´t have many pedals or struggling with space in the pedalboard? Thanks!

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Not at this time, it would have to be a whole new product.

[@shashman95]

Would it be possible to have some sort of power buffer inside a pedal that can respond to the input guitar signal and modify the voltage and current that's powering the 'tone-changing' part of the pedal so that you can get the same carbon battery sound but use a regular power source? or potentially some sort of external power box that is specifically for powering fuzz, drive, wah and distortion pedals that have a carbon battery responsive circuitry?

[@VertexEffectsInc]

shashman95 it’s possible - I think it comes down to cost in the end and how much the market would bear for a power supply with that feature - my guess is the cost while not justify the sales.

[@ktulu33]

Was it just me or was the sag control difference not discussed?

[@VertexEffectsInc]

You know what, you’re right! I realized that somehow that discussion got cut. In essence, the sag control would look exactly like the power supply line on the graph, just at a lower voltage. It doesn’t emulate a carbon battery because it’s too linear. There is also no current limiting that is occurring in the “sag” equation in a power supply. Which is half the equation of a how a carbon battery reacts to say, an overdrive or fuzz pedal. The closest it can come is by adding series resistors in attempt to recreate the current variability. Again, that’s a constant- not a variably changing current that would be consistent with a battery.

[@alexgl]

I dont believe my ears so much that im going to perfom this kinda test by myself. Huge difference. Unbelievable.

[@dustinmbox]

Just curious which of your pedals would exhibit this effect? I have the boost and the Dynamic Distortion.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Dustin Box Dynamic for sure, boost wouldn’t be an advantage

[@druwk]

Big difference! Really could hear it. Might want to start having a mixed power supply? I use a Wah, Fuzz, and OD that could benefit? Plus, I could put a couple more pedals on my board!

[@dominiquecerdan8255]

Again and again, the doctor strike, Mason the best by far of course

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Thank you sir!

[@LagunaPadre361]

QUESTION! Would wiring 2 9v carbon batteries parallel "Double" its operating time in the sweet spot, or would it defeat the purpose of going for that non-linear interplay that was intended for in the first place?

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Andrew Villarreal it would double the current if you connected two of them, and would change some of the behaviors, but it would still decline in voltage at a slower rate.

[@LagunaPadre361]

@@VertexEffectsInc so if its like that, then theoretically, you can run that same pair in series instead and power an 18V drive, but w/ the same "synergistics"as the single battery right? i want to make my own "billionaire box" by mounting those battery boxes they use for active pick-ups to a pedal board then wiring them to that kingtone mod for the danelectro boxes so i can have that power switch. THANKS ALOT for this post! you've given me the biggest brain-fart ive had in a while ;)

[@chrisk3390]

Is there an option to add an on/off switch to your battery power supply versus using an external supply?

[@VertexEffectsInc]

No, it's designed to be used with a larger supply for your higher current as an addendum power supply. If you need the on/off function, consider checking out the Danelectro I linked.

[@18JR78]

And its back!

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Yes!!!!!!

[@Jorbex]

i never knew i needed this

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Jorbex thanks for watching

[@Jorbex]

@@VertexEffectsInc no no. thank you for uploading

[@VertexEffectsInc]

of course!

[@GazMoz78]

Would the difference be as obvious with all tubescreamer type circuits? I use a Rockbox boiling point and I'm wondering if I should go carbon?

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Not necessarily, they may use a large power supply cap so it's not sensitive to differences in power - best way to tell is to try it. Easy enough to do that as most DC supplies when plugged into a DC jack will bypass the battery so you can A/B them quickly.

[@GazMoz78]

@@VertexEffectsInc ah great thanks for the info. Great video btw, very interesting

[@VertexEffectsInc]

@@GazMoz78 Thanks for watching!

[@NoCoverCharge]

I have been using the Donner pedal supply with 10 outputs 18v,12v,500ma9v and 7 100ma9v it is only $40 any thoughts on the Donner ?? Been using it for 6 months with zero problems

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Sweet! Never tried one.

[@Martin-vw3oh]

Question: For busking with a pedalboard and a cube street. what do you recommend? the pedalboard has an avalanche run, a boomerang looper so it can't be powered with 9v battery, help. thanks

[@VertexEffectsInc]

In that case, I think a rechargeable system of some kind would be better - I'm not sure about the Boomerang requirements, but I thought it was AC, maybe you'd considering a 9V style looper like a Ditto?

[@Martin-vw3oh]

@@VertexEffectsInc I guess ill build a 2nd set for busking, probably something with an rc30 and other pedals that run on batteries.

[@KanlydNorge]

So you decide to continue making them? I sent you an mail last week and I got the impression you stopped making them. I found one on e-bay so I’m covered, but I might order more if you decide to make them again. I build rigs for guys in Norway

[@VertexEffectsInc]

We have a small batch on Amazon.com right now, linked in the description - you can purchase there if you wish, or I can connect you with a European dealer.

[@redcomn]

Btw does this logic apply if i am using voodoo lab battery snap with ts mini?

[@VertexEffectsInc]

No

[@mattya1133]

Curious if the different batteries would effect the sound of an acoustic preamp or active pickups

[@VertexEffectsInc]

No, I wouldn’t use a carbon battery in this case - the more linear the better for this application

[@mattg082]

Thanks for this! I have some newer pedals that really run great on 9v. But my 90-early 2000 seem to do better on a fresh 9v. I notice a dull in my tone though if the 9v gets low on old buffered pedals, and stuff like DOD. When I plug in a power supply or use a fresh battery my sound is not muffled as much…but my biggest one is my Fuzz. It just sounds better with a battery! But on older ones it’s worth a try to swap a new battery vs adapter…it can effect the tone, even in when off. I had some batteries not new that worked…and I got the same dull tone on a Jekyl Hyde and DOD pedals. But once I used a fresh 9v…gone. In some cases a power supply will work as well on my 2000s pedals fine. Took me a bit to track it down! No one want to buy a new $200 style Timmy, Klon or Morning Glory. Only to find out plugged in alone it sounds great. But with other pedals it dulls with batteries at end of life. I’ve been culled where batteries will seem to be good and work on the pedal. But will kill the crisp high end of my newer pedals like the MG. It can be a headache! But anyways good to try all power supply first. Then look for older pedals and pop in a new 9v to see if a difference happens. Either way a decaying battery for me, has only sounded good in fuzz.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Thanks for watching!

[@RICKYBUBSJULIAN]

Does anyone know the name of the first song? The original?

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Dominic Gammon Tie Die, Tim Marco, see description

[@jonniepain]

I tried the exact same test , and got the reverse results . My powered supplied overdrives sounded much better than the battery . If fact I used the dollar tree batteries that you showed in the video

[@VertexEffectsInc]

As the video says, it will be pedal dependent, not all will react this way depending on how the manufacturer is dealing with the power supply section internally in the pedal.

[@jonniepain]

@@VertexEffectsInc I did my test with Boss SD1, Maxon 808 , Fulltone OCD , Boss Blues driver etc . One thing I did find that if I regulated the voltage down just a hair below 9 Volts that seemed to be the sweet spot for the overdrive pedals . 8.5 to 8.9

[@VertexEffectsInc]

What we’re the batteries that you’re using?

[@jonniepain]

@@VertexEffectsInc I was using the Sunbeam Batteries from the Dollar tree.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

jonniepain I haven’t done the test myself with those particular pedals you mentioned, but it may be that they are not as sensitive to carbon batteries, although it’s interesting that you find in sensitive to voltage differences.

[@lesainte2101]

Well, going into this I thought it was going go be complete BS. But I definitely heard the difference. I was in such disbelief that I had to shut my eyes for the demo and the difference was still night and day.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Eric Johnson knows all ;)

[@waynegram8907]

VERTEX, Get a Battery Internal Resistance Tester meter to measure the internal resistance of various types of batteries. Hendrix didn't use Alkaline but I think he used Carbon Zinc Batteries like Danelecto DB2 are Carbon Zinc, EHX9V and Eveready Batteries Carbon Zinc which is a electrochemical reaction between zinc and Manganese. The HIGHER internal resistance of the batteries is what is different in carbon zinc batteries which puts a IN-SERIES LOAD on the fuzz circuit. You should make a video lesson about this

[@AxisChemicals]

Hello! I just wonder why those batteries could not be benefic like for example use it to get a warmer sound and better low end response to a recent reverb pedal or digital delay pedal ? Thanks

[@DanielJackCosta]

How about a power supply that sends and average of 8 volts? Wouldn't it be the same?

[@ismaeljimenez1459]

The battery gives it like a warmer tone and a bigger feel

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Ismael Jimenez definitely! Would you throw a battery in your old school drive pedals?

[@paulcowart3174]

Very cool Thanks Mason 👍

[@thebrawnysquirrel6344]

Thank you! I was debating over this. I do want an opinion though: I would either buy the Power Plus 2 from Voodoo Labs or I would buy some rechargeable 9v batteries from Amazon Basics. Which one do you think?

[@VertexEffectsInc]

It’s absolutely not the same thing - part of the sound that’s demonstrated here is a result of a carbon battery, rechargeable batteries are essentially identical to the type of power that the pedals would see from a linear power supply.

[@thebrawnysquirrel6344]

@@VertexEffectsInc Thank you!

[@VertexEffectsInc]

🙏

[@09andyleach]

I’m looking forward to getting a Vertex Battery Power Supply. Just curious... if I keep a 9V battery inside the BPS but don’t use the output connected to that battery, will it still get drained when my external power supply is turned on? I’m basically wondering if I can leave spare batteries in the BPS for future use.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

No, they’re only draw if there is power connected to them

[@09andyleach]

Vertex Effects Right, but what if external power is connected but there’s no pedal connected to the output? Will it still draw from the battery in that situation?

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Andy Leach that’s what I meant in the above statement, relays and led are powered by the input so no battery draw occurs unless there is a source plugged into the battery output.

[@09andyleach]

@@VertexEffectsInc Excellent, thanks!

[@TheVeksha]

hello, Sir. I put inductance between 9v battery of my guitar and Emg81/85 pickups. the tone changed and impoved in my opinion. can You elaborate on this kind of magic effect on sound? i think it will be interesting to see tests (if You will hear the difference too, of course).

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Not ideal in that situation, I would say that you would want something more linear so that you have predictable behavior in the active circuitry

[@georgeeldridge7954]

Would it be good for ultraphonix and steel string?

[@VertexEffectsInc]

George Eldridge It depends, I like running the steel string at 18 V, so I don’t find that the battery is as valuable, Ultraphonix I like the sound of on battery

[@otjestefanus7391]

How about i'm using battery in bass preamp pedal? Is there any difference?

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Probably not advisable

[@alanstahl594]

How can I know when its time to change batteries the Vertex ? It sucks so bad when a pedal dies mid gig.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

There is no way to know for sure. Typically, pedals like OD's a Fuzzes that would be sensitive to a battery are low current, maybe 5-10mA max. These batteries would last 20-30 hours typically of in use time. So divide that by how often you're powering your pedalboard on.

[@jimofthewild7273]

Wow, I need to go back to trying out batteries. To my ear this test shows how much tone is lost through power supplies, the batteries had a much thicker tone with more bottom end and top end. The PS seemed to push the mids.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Yes, on many pedals it does impact the sound!

[@Guitarman5200]

I just begun researching this, thanks a lot for these videos. I have a few questions in regards to Li-Ion and Alkaline batteries. I recently got a reproduction/clone of the Boss CE-1 (PastFX version), tried it but after some minutes the chorus effect stopped working, or was barely audible even while cranked on max, but the vibrato still worked. Checked the battery I was using and it was a carbon-zinc one lol I now have an idea of what happened after watching this. The Chorus Ensemble has a considerably bigger current draw than the typical overdrive/distortion/fuzz (almost 10x), and the original Boss CE-1 one wasn't powered by batteries, you had to plug it in. And as you've explained, this effect does not fall in the category of what you would typically use a carbon battery for. You've said in other comments that Alkaline and Lithium batteries are very close to a linear power supply which apparently is what I would need to make proper use of this pedal (the manual also recommends a linear power supply), and now finally after that wall of text, my questions. Is there an audible difference between an Alkaline battery and a Li-Ion one? And, have you tried how rechargeable Li-Ion batteries work with pedals that need a linear type of power supply (or just non-carbon batteries type of power)? Or are rechargeable batteries no good at all for this type of job? This is the only pedal on my board that would need this type of power so I am trying to see if rechargeable batteries is a viable option for this one pedal. One last question, you've also mentioned a lot of modern distortion/fuzz/OD pedals have been "updated" and perform the same whether on a battery or power supply, and you explained the method of turning it on and unplugging the power input. My problem is that, for example, I am using a Boss DS-2 which has been around since the 80s, but I bought a new one in the 2010s. This method should also work to check this, right? Thank you for your time. Edit: I tested all my pedals and all but one shut off in less than 0.5 seconds. So this means they are sensitive to a Power Supply or battery, also meaning they are sensitive if its a carbon battery vs a non-carbon battery right? If the pedal does not shut off immediately and takes a couple seconds, it isn't sensitive to batteries or power supplies, meaning it doesn't matter if its a carbon battery or non-carbon battery? The Chorus took a little over 2 seconds to shut off.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

I suspect that it draws too much current for what the batteries can provide. This is why it no longer functions properly after a short period of time. Carbon will die much faster than an Alkaline comparative even if they're both rated as 9V batteries. The alkaline and rechargeable varieties of batteries all resemble a typical linear power supply, at least to a greater degree than a carbon battery does. However, as we know, batteries don't have unlimited voltage and current - so even if it behaves like a linear supply for example, it doesn't mean it can perform that way in perpetuity. This is what you're seeing/hearing. I wouldn't put anything that's high current on a battery or anything that is designed to be fairly linear in nature on a battery. I would restrict carbon batteries to overdrives, distortions, fuzz, wah, things of that nature. Not modulation pedals like this. It's not a catch all to test pedals like this regarding the LED dissipation, however it's a decent check to try that in most cases will tell you if there is any sort of power supply cap there. Again, I wouldn't collapse any pedals "sensitivity" as sounding "better". There can be other reasons that the LEDs go off quickly, so again, this is a baseline to try, but not the entire story. If you're not dealing with the effect type above, I wouldn't even mess with batteries - it's not a good use of your time and won't produce a better sound.

[@Guitarman5200]

@@VertexEffectsInc Thank you so much! The other pedals I have are a germanium fuzz, distortion, overdrive and a wah. Last time I bought batteries I just went for the cheap ones I could find, and today after checking them again I found out they are all carbon batteries. Luckily those pedals fall under the category of possible use for a carbon zinc battery, and I like their sound. My only problem is this one modulation pedal... I'll give it a go with an Alkaline and a rechargeable Li-Ion battery and see what happens and how it lasts. But its very likely I will buy a proper power supply for these type of pedals in the future anyway, once they amount to a pile on my board 😄 Gotta save up for that CIOKS and/or Voodoo! Thanks again for sharing your knowledge :)

[@michael_caz_nyc]

Hey Mason - 2 questions. #1 How would I incorporate your Vertex Battery Unit with a Strymon Zuma? #2 Would you recommend Carbon or Alkaline Batteries for a Fulltone OCD, Clyde Deluxe and a Thorpy Fallout Cloud ?

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Michael Caz you would just dedicate one of your power outs to hit the input of the battery psu - I’d say carbon on the drives and distortion, I don’t know what the cloud is.

[@michael_caz_nyc]

@@VertexEffectsInc Thanks. It's like a Hi-Fi Ram's Head Big Muff. Appreciate the information. I may go the Battery route for 2020?

[@ALBERTOGARCIA-nk9bo]

Hello, great video, learning a lot here. I have a Maxon Od-9, RAT 2, Boss BD-2, Dunlop 535Q wah. Which power supply do you recommend for this overdrives and wah?

[@gbergman95]

“Cannot kill the battery.” - Metallica

[@cristiancontrario]

Battery! Uuuh BAT-TE-RY! 😂 \w/

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Hahaha

[@waynegram8907]

Vertex Effects, What do you mean by the fuzz pedals are high impedance pedals?

[@isaacjinn4721]

There are people who believe that battery effects tone, imo power supply is the way to go as its more efficient but i shouldn’t say this as i still use batteries on my vox wah too :( and the brightness it gives is great for players who really want that classic 50’s tone.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Isaac Jinivon not for everyone but there is a tone difference in some pedals.

[@MrKingtonejoe]

The Danelectro unit is NOT PLASTIC !!! It IS A HEAVY DUTY METAL ENCLOSURE. I was shocked at how heavy, actually. NICE !!!

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Blujeaux thanks for the correction - I will add this into the description

[@thesoundpurist]

Cool but does the power supply take over in case the batteries die? Thanks

[@VertexEffectsInc]

No, it does not, several reasons make it difficult - primarily because there is not a constant voltage that all pedals will work on, so you'd have to set a voltage floor for every pedal, also, voltage will drop and regenerate in a carbon battery so you would get sudden changes if the input is hit hard enough even if the voltage would regenerate back above the floor. It would also cost way more than $100 to have such feature, so I opted to make the compromise.

[@thesoundpurist]

Ok, that s what I expected knowing there's even professionals loving the sound of dying batteries even Shane Lane had this thing for tubes at the end of their life

[@VertexEffectsInc]

@@thesoundpurist it's a cool idea, but you'd have to set a threshold for every battery with each pedal as they all decay differently in voltage and set a floor for the voltage at the point the power supply would take over. It would be a difficult device to implement with customers I think because setting it improperly would nullify the battery sound.

[@patricknoel2843]

How about some of drive pedals that need more than 9 volt? Can we merge 2 of 9 volt battery?

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Patrick, if the pedal you are powering requires 18v, you power it with a voltage doubler cable- Voodoo labs sells one. However, do not power your pedals with more voltage than is recommended by the manufacturer as it can damage your pedal.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Yes, same as a power supply - you can use an 18V adaptor cable, but again depending on the manufacturer it may not impact the sound

[@waynegram8907]

When using older vintage boss effects that use ACA power, how can you use your tuner output to power up ACA vintage boss effects? and why does using the boss tuner bypass the ACA voltage step down circuit. I'm not sure why boss used ACA power supplies at 12vdc when their was stock 9vdc power supplies and used a internal 3vdc step down circuit internal in all pedals which doesn't make sense when you would of just used stock 9vdc power supplies. Any reasons for the ACA advantages?

[@VertexEffectsInc]

If you can't give your pedals 12V then it's better to use their supply or do a simple mod to fix to 9V.

[@monkeyxx]

the battery clips are way, way louder than the power supply clips, not sure what else is going on there, doesn't seem like a perfect demonstration

[@VertexEffectsInc]

It's actually the EQ change that you're hearing from the high impedance source, in some pedals it can exaggerate midrange and some top which will occur as louder, and the DC thinner. It's literally an A/B box that is switching them in realtime.

[@monkeyxx]

@@VertexEffectsInc I don't trust that at all, sorry. I've done these tests myself, nowhere near that much difference, not even remotely.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

@@monkeyxx it depends on the pedal and size of the power supply capacitor, a good way to tell how sensitive something is to battery is to unplug it from DC and see how long the LED stays illuminated. It it stays lit up for a few seconds it won't likely be sensitive to a battery, but if it goes out right away, it will be very sensitive as there is like a low value cap or no cap on the power supply. Again not all pedals will react this way, I choose the most exaggerated ones I could find in my collection for the demo.

[@monkeyxx]

@@VertexEffectsInc thanks, that's a great practical tip. I don't know if you can go into detail on a youtube post but do you know a good way to simulate a carbon battery with a daisy chain wall supply? would a 10 ohm resistor be enough to simulate that series resistance of a cheap battery? would a filter capacitor negate the whole thing?

[@VertexEffectsInc]

@@monkeyxx it doesn't work so well unless you design a variable circuit since current limiting and voltage drop is happening simultaneously and isn't a constant. This is why SAG controls don't really work well because the voltage and current are always interplaying. I've considered it but you'd have to set a threshold for every pedal - because they have different voltage and current needs - and for every battery, as they too are not all the same.

[@prsfan01]

"synergisticly"...Nice!

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Justin Williamson yes indeed

[@sak7530]

So I have heard the carbon battery story for a while now. You sir are the first person to convince me to try it. PSI fuzz on carbon, never going back. I have the mini TS but it does not have a battery compartment. Do you think a battery would have the effect as the full size TS or does the mini have some type of regulator?

[@tigerhunter8878]

Do you recommend putting a carbon battery in a Tumnus (Klon style ) pedal? Also for a carbon copy do you recommend that as well since it’s a bucket brigade circuit?

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Batteries work the best with OD, so yes, carbon battery in tumnus!

[@kirkniles533]

Hey Uncle Mason. I really value this vid. Its soooooo informative!! I have a small pedalboard with a DANELECTRO CV-1 Univibe, a EHX Key9 E.Piano Machine(100mA) and BOSS CE-3 Stereo Chorus(Fromel Mod) running into the DANELECTRO N-10 mini Amp (as my preamp) then into a Mixer/PA. Is your battery power supply suitable to run this entire board?

[@JRP3music]

The battery tank, needs a timer or meter to let you know life span. Or maybe a led that goes out when 5.4Volts is reached.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

JRPowell3_Music It’s possible, but the more features that are added the higher the price goes, we are trying to hit a sub $100 target so compromises need to be made

[@Nate-oc1ot]

More features to suck battery life or potentially make noise?

[@JRP3music]

Doubt a small led would cause noise with a battery power supply. A lot of factors come into play introducing noise. Sure it would reduce battery faster, but I am sure it would be minimal.

[@RuXTaR]

I thought the GFI System Specular Tempus wasn't a high current pedal

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Depends what you're calling high current. Most vintage OD, Fuzz, Distortion, Wah pedals only draw 10-20mA. I'd be surprised if you could even get a GFI Specular Tempus to fire up on a battery, even an Alkaline one.

[@silviolutti1522]

Hello and thank you for your interesting and very useful videos. I wanted to ask you which / which power supplies have the sound closest to battery. Thanks.

[@battuh]

Sorry for being late to this party, but i'd like to ask: is there any place where I can find a more "geeky", technical explanation to this phenomena, regarding the voltage drop, current and impedance, and what it does to the tone?

[@VertexEffectsInc]

We have a few other videos on this on the channel you can check out with our Battery Power Supply demos.

[@StuivenbergFlorian]

Hey thanks for this information! Very usefull. Didn't even know batteries could have a good side. I use a Boss OC-2 (1987 Japan) and an old DOD FX25 envelope filter. Would any of those two sound better with a battery?

[@VertexEffectsInc]

I don't think there is an advantage with those types of devices typically.

[@StuivenbergFlorian]

Okay, thank you!

[@thiagodiascosta3582]

How would you identify which pedals would benefit from carbon batteries? Also, what do you think on the issue of boost/drive pedals that take 18v? In your opinion which would be the best option for those? Power supply 18v or carbon batteries 9v?

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Thiago, typically analog overdrives, fuzz, distortion, wahs are going to be the best candidates. An easy way to tell is plug in the power supply and turn the pedal on so you can see the LED. Then remove the power (while the pedal is still on), and see how long it takes the LED to go dead. If it turns off immediately it will be more sensitive to a carbon battery. If it takes a few seconds, it won't be sensitive to a battery because it has a large power supply cap most likely.

[@kchappell65247]

Could you use a single 9V wall wart to plug into the input instead of an isolated power supply unit?

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Kendall Chappell yes

[@mattastic247]

dude, whaaaaaat!!?? is that for real? huuuuuuge difference in low end.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Check out those battery power supplies man!!!

[@elKanobi]

are these no longer sold?

[@VertexEffectsInc]

They’re being reissued in a few weeks

[@JC-11111]

www.vertexeffects.com/store#!/tab/power-supply In case you haven't been back, they're now available 👍

[@Michaelgracon]

Eric Johnson wasn’t as crazy as he seemed with his battery comments.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

No he was not!

[@mattg9169]

I use my Truetone CS12 Pro power supply and plug my fuzz in the fifth slot which can be turned down to 4 volts to emulate a dying battery.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Matt Gardner It’s not the same because it only simulates voltage, not current, both need to be and a synergistic dance with each other internally in order to make the battery thing a reality, otherwise you’re just taking a linear supply and making it out put it lower voltage - there’s not variability which is the beauty of the carbon battery

[@mattg9169]

@@VertexEffectsInc Very true

[@Nate-oc1ot]

I like this idea my proco rat has a completely different feel with a battery!

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Yes indeed!

[@kenzachow]

Wish we could heard the difference between Alkaline and Carbon. Also compare it to the GigRig Virtual Battery... Gracias!

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Alkaline is the same as a power supply in sound and behavior, hence no separate demo. The Virtual Battery is like what you see in the Voodoo Lab, you get a voltage sag, but it's a constant and not variable (as I understand it), so you're not simulating any of the current limiting, just voltage.

[@kenzachow]

@@VertexEffectsInc Seems that the Virtual Battery emulates what a carbon battery does and it's not the sag effect. There are demos in YT comparing it with carbon batteries and sounds same for me. Also you can find a photo of the circuit and it's not just a potentiometer as other sag emulators. (Probable the Voodoo power supply has just a potentiometer.)

[@mohammadebhami8120]

Hey Man , i have replaced the battery but after then the boss GT1 not turn on anymore with adapter and with battery its alarm low battery then its turn off . what should i do ?

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Why not use the adaptor? This wouldn't be an ideal pedal for batteries.

[@mohammadebhami8120]

@@VertexEffectsInc i try to use of adapter but when I plug the adapter the device turn off

[@VertexEffectsInc]

@@mohammadebhami8120 could be the adaptor isn't working or the power jack is damaged on your pedal.

[@telecasper]

The Billionaire case is metal. I have both that and the Vertex and they are both good products - Vertex being a bit more sturdy but more importantly ISOLATED

[@VertexEffectsInc]

telecasper see show notes, added that correction a few days back. Thank you nonetheless for the follow up and correction. Are the batteries not isolated on the Dano?

[@mattfirst4832]

@@VertexEffectsInc I had an issue with isolation. I have both products as well. I could not incorporate my Sunface fuzz with other pedals using the Billionaire.

[@marknachmias423]

Power supply vs carbon battery. Hmmm. Very different. Different doesn’t necessarily mean that one is better than the other. It depends on your taste and the situation. Personally, I prefer the sound of the carbon batteries overall.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Mark Nachmias they’re great for sure, just not always practical on every rig

[@sevenity2677]

Yeah I made my own power supply with dual 9v selectable. I have 4 pedals to power so it was a great option for my rig.

[@69magik96]

Does this use Diodes or Relays? I saw some commentary that using Diodes or Transistors for switching can compromise tone. Thanks :)

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Who’s telling you that that would impact the tone? This is using relays relays to switch the batteries in and out.

[@69magik96]

@@VertexEffectsInc I saw it mentioned on a vid where a battery block was being modded / switched out. Thanks for clarifying.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

@@69magik96 switched out of what?

[@69magik96]

@@VertexEffectsInc the Danelectro plastic looking thing. It's like a mod anyone can purchase I think.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

@@69magik96 there's a lot of things wrong with that unit...it's not isolated for one. The modification, which I think is actually mentioned in one of our videos (maybe even this one), basically makes the Danelectro version very similar to what we make. We have a newer version of the battery power supply as well that came out last year.

[@jettemane]

Have a 90’s MXR compressor. It, of course course is battery only. Since you didn’t mention compressors in the list of beneficiaries, is it not a good candidate for carbon power? Great presentation by the way.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

It might help keep the noise down, but generally I'll run these with more consistent power via a power supply.

[@jettemane]

@@VertexEffectsInc Thanks. I believe that’s a good call. Keep up the good work. I’m talking you up.