Battlestar Galactica | Did Adama Start the Cylon War?

[@smartalec2001]

So this is why Adama was so willing to accept the news of war in the pilot episode, while Tigh was incredulous and assumed it was a joke. Deep down, for some time, Adama had been afraid the Cylons were coming.

[@allenharper2928]

Maybe, but I guarantee you Cavil was already planning to attack the colonies, and it would have happened eventually. The most this mission did was accelerate the Cylon's timeline a bit.

[@TentaclePentacle]

@@allenharper2928 cavil didn't have the votes, this mission gave him the votes to attack

[@Hunpecked]

@@TentaclePentacle The Number Ones placed two of the Final Five "undercover" at least 30 years before the surprise attack, the other three some time later. All the humanoid Cylons were infiltrating the Colonies well before the attack. It would probably take years, for example, to get Baltar's software tested, accepted, and propagated through the fleet. "Sharon Valerii" had to pose as a refugee from Troy, join Colonial Fleet, finish basic training, finish advanced training as a pilot, and work her way up to experienced Raptor pilot (two years with Galactica, according to the Galactica wiki). The wiki also says Bulldog's mission occurred SIX years before the Cylon attack, whereas the actual dialog in the show says ONE year. This is just one example of the mental gymnastics required to make sense of this show. I conclude that Bulldog causing the war is just a retcon.

[@dfgiuy22]

You think?

[@Mosxutus]

a) If Adama knew the Cylons were coming then so did Tigh. They were both in the same room, both knew where the armistice line was and besides why else would Tigh say all those things to Adama and Bulldog? Both knew their mission, both knew the stakes. b) Cavil wanting to attack and Adama precipitating the attack can both be true at the same time. As Adama himself said, it only takes one man. However the placing of the 5 in the colonies and ostensibly even Sharon can be arguably a very different thing from inserting a stealth ship beyond an armistice line... If the US catches a Russian spy in its territory it's basically business as usual. Maybe it will make the headlines, maybe it won't, even if it does there'll be a diplomatic protest, a trial, or a prisoner exchange. Catch a stealth plane flying over? You've got troops forming in lines faster than you can say fast.

[@ronin3381]

I wish we saw more of the Valkyrie. It’s a beautiful ship.

[@Mobius_118]

We got to see it in The Plan. Unfortunately all we got to see was it getting disabled by the CNP virus.

[@darkleome5409]

I can think of a way it can. Fleet command decided to leave Tigh on Valkyrie, while Adama is transferred to Galactica. At the day of the attack, Valkyrie would be escorting Galactica. The reason is, Saul, as well as new commander of Valkyrie were vocal about wanting to witness the decommissioning of renowned warship and both wanted to see Bill, explaining their wish as a measure to help Galactica dump munitions, conduct repairs etc. So when attack began, both ships jumped to Ragnar. Both had lost at least one squadron of vipers. The rest of the first season/miniseries is mostly the same: meeting with the fleet, battle of Ragnar, 33 minutes events. Since Valkyrie is undergoing software reboot, it is mostly useless for some time. Adama, though, is promoted to Rear Admiral. When Cain arrived, he still had given up command, as she's a full Admiral, or Fleet Admiral. That's because she was the only highest ranked officer right after the attack. "appointed by fleet command, not some civvies" - that's what she will say. Later events are getting far more complicated, especially since there's a whole new character - Valkyrie's commander. I imagine him as someone in between Adama and Cain, behavior-wise. Like, idk, John Sheridan - John Sheppard type, for example

[@Mobius_118]

@@darkleome5409 Personally speaking, having a Valkyrie-class in the Fleet could've prevented the loss of the Pegasus. Instead of sacrificing the tactically superior vessel to rescue Adama and the Galactica, Lee takes in the smaller, more expendable Battlestar. Since it wasn't built to take the same punishment as a Jupiter or Mercury, especially under the guns of four Basestars, she'd take heavy damage and lose FTL capabilities, but the ship would continue to fight with the strength of its namesake. As soon as the Galactica and civilian fleet manages to jump away, Lee commits to a desperate final attack, locking the Valkyrie into a ramming maneuver and evacuating its remaining crew. As the last Raptor jumps away, we get a final shot of her plowing straight through a Basestar and detonating its reactor, claiming a form of vengeance for all her fallen sister ships that were destroyed without being given a chance to fight back.

[@silenthill4]

You can buy it from Eaglemoss

[@Chase0420]

@@darkleome5409 Excellent Babylon 5 reference

[@ceasar12c]

No, Cylons already had spies in the camp, preparing for the war. Why build up huge military armada if they weren't going to attack. In the first episode it said they had infiltrated every Battlestar. No, the Cylons had already decided on a preemptive strike on the home worlds.

[@Kai-tn4yx]

I think "infiltrated every Battlestar" with the virus, not with humanoid Cylons. Since there were only 7 different models, that would have been easily noticed.

[@Hunpecked]

Before the attack, Cylons had infiltrated the Colonies, either with actual Cylon spies, or by means of useful idiots like Baltar (it would seem likely that Caprica 6, for example, had other lovers working for her). Even if they originally suspected the Colonials were preparing to attack, the Cylons would know better after gathering intelligence, especially after gaining access (through Baltar) to "the defense mainframe". That they went ahead anyway tells me the Valkyrie mission was irrelevant. I don't recall any Cylons mentioning it before or after this episode. As for "easily noticing" duplicate Cylons, the Colonies consist of twelve planets, each approximately Earth size, each with population comparable to Earth, plus innumerable smaller settlements like Troy, where "Boomer" supposedly grew up. Drop multiples of each model into this vast arena with decent cover stories and various disguises and they'll never be noticed. As an example, we know at least three #6's who went unnoticed before the war: Caprica 6, "Gina Inviere" on Pegasus, and "Shelly" (?) from the Olympic Carrier who tried to frame Baltar with a fake photo. On a higher level, of course, the war wasn't the fault of any character on the show. The whole premise of the show is that "all this has happened before and will happen again". There are no choices when all is preordained. ☹

[@wulfgarpl]

@@Hunpecked It's actually shame that Final Five story negates "Adama started the war" aspect. It's a shame because both stories are cool. Number One story is good. But if writers would follow what imo this episode sets up I think we would end up with interesting stuff too. I wonder if this was what they were going at first but scripts evolved into something entirely different

[@malloryjones5393]

One had been laying the groundwork for the war before Adama ever got back on active duty. He wasn’t solely responsible even if he felt that way.

[@underarmbowlingincidentof1981]

The war of Cylon aggression

[@ReiTsukinoVT]

No, Adama's mission wasn't the spark that set it off. This, it seemed more like the Cylons were expecting it because they didn't detect anything close to the armistice line for years, then out of nowhere this stealth ship is detected almost immediately? I'd wager they had the whole mission profile before they even jumped to the line.

[@RSProduxx]

After all, there was a Cylon sleeper on board of Galactica... I´m still not sure if the Cylons could "read" information from them even before they got "woken up"...

[@ReiTsukinoVT]

@@RSProduxx To be fair, like Col Tigh pointed out, they had no clue about the humanoid models until the fall of the colonies, let alone that a humanoid model could age.

[@bcmm1880]

@@ReiTsukinoVT the whole “aging thing” brings up a lot of questions, one of which why does Cavil never chose a younger body, it makes sense for Tigh but should’ve explained it a bit more for Cavil

[@Andronicus87]

Yep from a skinjob that had infiltrated the admiralty.

[@dynestis2875]

@@RSProduxx the stealth ship was deployed from the Valkyrie tho

[@Roman-nu1om]

the music in this scene nails Adams's feeling of regret perfectly

[@gambar]

McCreary's score nails everything in this show perfectly!

[@sawyernorthrop4078]

"Sooner or later, the day comes when you can't hide from the things you've done anymore."

[@danielefabbro822]

That's the most truly line in the whole show and even in life. Lies can't be hidden.

[@Autobotmatt428]

I think Cavel would have started it anyway this just gave him more fuel to convince the others

[@alistairrae9807]

Definitely Cavil was hell bent on destroying the human race

[@Jabbadoor2]

Cavels plan was already underway at this point, since he had already planted Saul and Ellen amongst the humans. So as I see it, it's implied that the attack clearly would have happened sooner or later, indeed.

[@Autobotmatt428]

@@Jabbadoor2 He would still have to convince the others and this might have had a hand in it.

[@bcmm1880]

Ya it would’ve already happened, I feel like they didn’t really explain Calvins whole plan in the show, so they made “The Plan” and it sort of answered things, but just gave more questions and retconned some things that they shouldn’t have

[@davepowder4020]

@@Jabbadoor2 It's true, it didn't take a quantum leap, just an enterprising step for the plan to be put underway.

[@a.m.5973]

No. Saul Tigh, a cylon, was already with working for Adama and they've known each other for quite a while. That means the Cylons already set in motion the events leading to the war beginning with the expulsion of the original 5. In the first episode, a model 6 was already integrated society using Gaius Baltar for access. Other Cylon models were found infiltrating different parts of the fleet and colonies; I assume they also were prepping for war.

[@RSProduxx]

Makes Adama feeling guilty the more tragic :)

[@Andronicus87]

Wrong the new human cylons erased the memories of and boxed the rest of the models of the final 5. They then sent them down to live on the colonies with no memories of who or what they were at all because the final five were preventing them from starting a new war. The final five came from the thirteenth COlony to warn the humans about the inevitble creation of A.I. THey were the ones that got the Cylons to originally agree to the armistice. How do you think the Cyrannus system Cylons learned how to make skinjobs? From the FInal FIve. THey agreed to armistice if the five would teach them how to make skinjobs. After the 8 Cyrannus human-like models were built they turned on the five. That was 10 years after the armistice. They then spent the next thirty building a war machine. They would of attacked the humans regardless of Adamas actions. Adama may have sped up their schedule though.

[@shanejohns7901]

Sun Tzu quote: "In peace, prepare for war. In war, prepare for peace."

[@knghtbrd]

Q: How long ago was that mission on the Valkyrie? I'm unclear on that. It's possible Six came after. It's possible the Cylons _had_ been preparing for war, but here was the Colonial fleet breaking the armistice. That may have been enough to set any plans for war in motion, to deploy Six. But … what about Boomer? Hm.

[@tpl608]

That whole lifelong friendship is part of the producers not planning this series out. So the 5 get there and convince the cylons to end the 1st war for resurrection and skin jobs. But saul and Adama fought in the 1st war together.

[@bcmm1880]

They should’ve brought Bulldog back, unless I’m wrong, he just kind of disappeared from the show, he could’ve come back at the end of season 4, make some sort of last mission under Adama

[@Mobius_118]

I thought he'd pop up at least during the Colony attack as one of the pilots, but you're right, he just disappears after this episode.

[@andrewnlarsen]

@@Mobius_118 most likely due to scheduling conflicts with the actors and all that.

[@Paradox3713]

Consider this. That the reason the Cylon's own stealth fighter was able to jump in, engage the Stealth Star, and jump out the way it did, was because the Colonial Defense net was already compromised, and they knew they were coming, as well as had codes to enable them to see a Colonial stealth ship. Given the execution, that is the only thing that makes sense. The only other option is that the Admiralty sent another Stealth ship in to damage the Stealth Star and draw a response to confirm that they were still there. Also keep in mind that the incident not only confirmed that they were still out there, but it also confirmed that the Cylons have some pretty advanced tech on their side.

[@harleyrider1205]

After all these years, still the best Sci fi show on tv!

[@Povsa_]

Close second after the Expanse for me

[@chadwickerman]

Babylon 5 then Farscape for me. But BSG in definitely in the top five or ten.

[@Scottlp2]

BSG is great and the best dark/gritty SF series. Alas it forever changed all SF and nearly everything after has had to be dark and gritty. Mostly I prefer SF with both dark moments and humor e.g. B5. The legacy of BSG is SGU, STD, eyeballs being removed on screen in Picard, etc.

[@Synthonym]

idk I think the Expanse topped it

[@laggordo]

Dam right, it is. I love the Stargate franchise, but it's a little chessy at times. Some starwars, movies , and startrek, but galactica has an authentic space drama and action with a believable story.

[@_spooT]

The Cylons were going to attack either way. They were manipulative in nature and so were their command structure. Even they didn't trust themselves ever since the first cylon war. There were Cylons that evolved to be more open minded, sympathetic, and wanted nothing to do with Humanity's extinction, while there were those who didn't care about humanity and wanted them exterminated and saw Cylons as the supreme species. If anything, ever since the beginning, the biggest downfall to Cylons are themselves

[@danielk5780]

"If anything, ever since the beginning, the biggest downfall to Cylons are themselves" You could say the same about humans.

[@GraceCole-qy6ul]

Some wanted war just like the humans lol but their ww2 old guard did not retire in the 70s lol

[@Nick871203]

@@danielk5780 thats true, the genocide could easily have been avoided if they didnt fucking network their entire fleet knowing their potential enemies are a race of machines that have a knack for electronic warfare.... regardless all military assets should be as close to analog as possible.

[@mikevanroy9356]

They waited until after Adama had served a full tour commanding Galactica to attack though. It wasn't like either side was just waiting for the right moment to strike. Neither side was ready so both sides kept building their war machines.

[@allenharper2928]

Untrue, the colonies were actually in the process of downscaling their military when the attack happened.

[@Adiddy927]

The Adar administration was downgrading the military while the Cylon was building up their forces.

[@Hartzilla2007]

@@Adiddy927 Well more like the Cylons building their military around one mass surprise attack that would have seen them probably fucked if it had failed given how fragile their current gen Basestars were.

[@HM2SGT]

Chain of command. He was acting under colour of authority, executing the lawful orders of his superiors. If this was the precipitating event, responsibility lies with the leadership that assigned the mission. *However* : Saul & Ellen Tigh were decanted & programmed *30 years* before the destruction of the colonies. Six begins her mission two years before the apocalypse. Building the infrastructure & the fleet to destroy the colonies required time… two years is far too short a span. I believe we can safely assume that Cavill‘s Machiavellian machinations were conceived and implemented decades before Bulldog’s mission from Valkyrie.

[@BattlestarZenobia]

I’d question whether the orders were legal as they were against the terms of the Armistice

[@johnsonjunior547]

@@BattlestarZenobia To be fair, they had more defensive intentions than aggressive ones, at least in how they presented it to adama. Adama was just there to figure out if they were even still in the armistice cylon-controlled zone or if they abandoned it. But if the legality is between only two bodies (colony vs cylon), i'd argue that there is no external body to actually enforce those legalities. Its two societies that are in the midst of a war with a temporary no-fire. It'd be different if there were other societies that helped conduct the armistice but there wasn't, just two warfaring factions. I think a break of the armistice would morally allow the cylons to at the very least contact the humans and get things straight and possibly break the armistice completely, but not completely eradicate humans in a surprise attack for crossing the line

[@Sonicboom2007]

@@johnsonjunior547I think it’s more along the lines of whether or not the Admiralty had the legal authority to violate the armistice treaty without prior civilian government approval. And if the answer is no, whether or not they got prior approval from the civilian government before conducting the mission. Odds for both are no given that mission was supposedly launched because the admiralty was restless and didn’t like the current government’s actions. The way Adama frames it what they were doing was dubious at best, blatantly illegal at worst. If Adama was given illegal orders, he clearly chose to follow them anyways (Adama would almost certainly know whether or not the orders were legal) despite also knowing the real risk that if caught the cylons may view his actions as an act of war. Whether or not the cylons changed their plans wouldn’t negate the fact that he broke the treaty, and likely did so without legal authorization.

[@marcyoungblood5925]

Great writing, great acting, great direction, great show!!!

[@I_SuperHiro_I]

What a brilliant episode.

[@archades115]

The Cylons had infiltrated the Twelve Colonies at least a year before Adama's mission. The fleet and stockpile of weapons had to have taken at least a decade to build. Adama did not start the war.

[@Vaeleagle]

The war never endet. It was only an armistice. So you would be total mad if you dont start survey missions to the border and beyond. And hey, they had the bioforms allready. The final five where in the colonies. So the cylons crossed the border first. They never wanted to talk to the colonies in 40 years. So its never the fault of the colonials.

[@oFinalSolution]

Young Adama movie implies a leap frog in that human cyclon tech was why they agreed to peace (buy time to do setup this exact attack without them knowing of the androids).

[@DarththeHorrible]

In hindsight, it would have been better for the 12 colonies that the war started right there. The Baltar navigational program was not operationional yet. If the cylons where forcee to go to war on this it would have given a fighting chance for the colonies. Their ships where superior to those of the cylons and atleast a stalemate could have been created.

[@nessunday]

Not true cylon ships are easily replaceable and have massive amounts of offensive weapons and raiders but at the expense of defences. Also the cylons don't need time in dry dock to repair a vessel nor do they need wages, suffer from moral demonisation among others, and to them death is a learning experience so they are able to return to action as soon as they resurrect. Would the colonials have won still....unlikely!

[@Jarekx2007]

@@nessunday Those massive amounts of offensive weapons are missiles countered by the colonial's point defense. In a fair fight the colonial fleet has the advantage which is why the Cylons decided to backdoor their network. If they hadn't, it would have been another grueling war of attrition.

[@ericj6636]

@@Jarekx2007 the colonials had decent ECM as can be seen from the Pegasus during the battle of the Resurrection Ship. When the missiles curve and bank around the ship you're seeing the results of more advanced ECM (as opposed to the Galactica)

[@dynestis2875]

Apparently the colonials put up quite a fight with some ships that never booted up the CNP, just after the destruction of Picon Fleet Headquarters

[@Hunpecked]

@@nessunday The Cylons had the same advantages in the first war, yet couldn't conquer the Colonials in ten (?) years of trying. Given their material advantages (as you mentioned), one has to assume they just weren't that bright. In the second war, they had all that AND surprise AND (after the sneak attack) numerical supremacy, yet couldn't land the knockout blow. I figured the humanoid Cylons were even dumber than their mechanical forbears or, more likely, they were "carrying" the remnants of humanity to prolong the show and their moment of fame. Had the show runners allowed a real war between the Colonials and humanoid Cylons, contrary to your prediction the war would have lasted as long as the show's ratings held up. 😁

[@ryank5424]

I'm sure it wasn't an easy decision but at the end of the day I believe the right one. Considering what the consequences were if discovered. He had to protect the mission. The worst part IMO is that he's been carrying the guilt for starting this and he had no idea they were already coming.

[@limemobber]

The worst part was sending out the wrong recon pilot. That pilot should have known the risks and some over the patriot willing to die to avoid detection or capture should have been sent. When you run an operation like this you have to go all out.

[@roberthaworth8991]

Much ado about nothing. Adama's action only gave the Cylons a legitimate casus belli (excuse to re-initiate fighting) -- as if they needed it. Their technology upgrades and shipbuilding had been going on for decades, and several skin jobs were already "working the Plan" undercover in the Colonies. They were going to re-start the War anyway. Cavil and other Cylons make no mention of this incident (or the casus belli it gave them) when discussing their reasons for re-launching the War; instead, Cavil says they "made a mistake" in fighting again.

[@ezragoldberg3132]

This comment deserves more upvotes. It's on point

[@RoyalFusilier]

I loved the show, and even this arc, but I would have liked if they'd set up a little more symmetry for the war. Adama harbors some doubt that he provoked them, but really the Cylons just wanted the war and are unambiguously wrong. The Colonials were not hunting them, or even building up much. After all, at the start, the Twelve Colonies are slashing military budgets and turning capital ships like Galactica into museums. We don't see a huge wave of anti-robot sentiment, probably because unlike the quarians, the Colonials won their Morning War and weren't exiled. But if the Cylons had seen leaders blaming the "Toasters" for the economy or rallying a military buildup, that could have fueled Cavil's arguments for a preemptive strike.

[@GeneralGrievous-1138]

Tbf, Roslin implies at the end of this episode that the admiralty intended for this mission to go sideways so they would have pretext for a war, because they weren't happy with the defense budget being slashed. It would've been better had the show leaned into it, but the Colonial admiralty absolutely wanted a war

[@jakeg3733]

He didn't start it. As the series progresses the cylons make it pretty clear that they absolutely hate humanity, especially Cavil who orchestrated "the plan". They were going to try to wipe out humanity regardless of what the colonials did or didn't do. What this incident _did_ do was give the cylons a valuable source of intelligence

[@QuicksilverSG]

In the episode where Cavil returns to Galactica along with Starbuck and Anders, Cavil reveals that he's been cynically using monotheistic religious dogma to manipulate the rest of the humanoid Cylons into committing genocide on the Colonists. Fill in the blanks and it becomes clear the attack on the Colonies could not have been instigated by the mechanoid Centurions, who have been nothing but enslaved minons all along. The Centurions' true allegiances became brutally apparent once they were released from their cybernetic restraints during the Cylon civil war, and they promptly slaughtered Cavil and his allies. The Centurions weren't AI "children" who murderously turned on the human race, they were automatons commandeered by Cavil and his naive cloned cultists to enact revenge on the Colonists. Cavil didn't take it as an "act of war" when Adama crossed the Armistice Line, he saw it as a sign that it was now time to launch the attack.

[@hjalti0000]

Ironically, provoking the war then would have worked in the Colonies' favor, since the Cylons hadn't totally compromised their systems yet.

[@stvdagger8074]

So much speculation as to whether this incursion across the armistice line triggered the Cylon attack. However, the Cylons never mention this incident. It is possible that it wasn't the Cylons who intercepted Bulldog's stealth ship. Bulldog is really named John Parker and he is a Black Lectroid, it is possible that his enemies the Red Lectroids could have been the attackers.

[@LionlordEbonfire]

The funny part is Adama blames himself for starting the war but his XO was a deep plant Cylon and the plan to attack the colonies was already underway. The scene is dripping with drama and on rewatch has more layers of meaning. This is how you do a drama... a Sci-Fi classic.

[@Eadweard76]

Yeah but the five had their memories blocked and their children was pissed at them. So they implanted them amongst the humans. So they could live amongst them and see humans for what they are.

[@LionlordEbonfire]

@@Eadweard76 But one of the most tragic point of the Cylons (as a group) is that they never understood humans or most things that were softer. Data they had. Tricking people they got but they did not understand beyond a certain point. Any feelings that ran deeper then things like lust or anger they missed. So they missed compassion, parental love and empathy.

[@glenn_r_frank_author]

@@Eadweard76 correct. Tigh and the others of the final five were not assisting the cyclons as planted sleeper agents, they were in essence "sentenced" to live as humans and be destroyed with them but the skinjob models (especially model 1 "john") who wiped their memories of the past when he planted them into human colonial society. The final five were not sleeper agents.

[@surshot56]

"It only takes one."

[@earthman6700]

Current Global tensions. Pocking sticks at each other whilst the Carbon Dioxide levels in the Atmosphere keep shooting up. 416ppm and rising. Methane on the way. Let's ignore it and trade insults. No room for Global unity against a Global imminent threat to us all. And that's not Battlestar Gallactica.

[@cmj0929]

Anyone catch Adama had on Admiral Rank in the flashback scene ? I thought he was just a commander up until roslin promoted him

[@Mobius_118]

He was, it's a production error.

[@rc59191]

I just figured he got demoted after the incident.

[@GAMEOFDRONES1]

Long time ago In a galaxy not that far away roughly 150,000 years back!

[@Mobius_118]

It's possible that the events of Star Wars and BSG were happening in parallel.

[@mitchellmelkin4078]

@@Mobius_118 God, I hope not!!!

[@scottm8292]

@@Mobius_118 Star Wars exists in a completely different galaxy to the Milky Way, so doesn't conflict with anything which isn't set in the Star Wars galaxy.

[@abonny]

I always thought they kept it very vague. This might have been the spark... or just a reassuremnet for the Cylons. Or it did nothing at all. It was interesting to think that no matter what, the POSSIBILITY kept eating away at Adama.

[@limemobber]

Hard to suggest the Colonies started it with a Cylon on the bridge of the Valkyrie.

[@Kaliburz]

Too bad Bulldog did not become a regular character... a pilot... or instructor

[@Mobius_118]

I just noticed, but I think they reused set pieces from the Pegasus' CIC for the Valkyrie's.

[@aztalyido]

Of course.. its a lot of money to build a complete set of new CIC for just couple of minutes in screen time... Its not worth the budget

[@Mobius_118]

@@aztalyido Not knocking them for it, just thought it was kind of cool that the Pegasus still got some use after its destruction earlier in the season.

[@CapitanoAraym]

Valkyrie and Pegasus are "modern warships" in comparison to Galactica: aside practical reusage of sets to cut budget expenditures for the show, it is also not strange that ships developed roughly in the same period shares internal modules. Even if Pegasus was a bigger ship, you can assume that a command center of a battlestar should do the same job, so share a lot of internal equipment, so in "their universe" it's easier too to reuse components also...

[@Mobius_118]

@@CapitanoAraym Too bad Blood and Chrome retconned the Valkyrie's "modern" status.

[@dominicsaviochettiar]

@@Mobius_118 even worse, a scene from the episode "Retribution" of the "Caprica" series shows what appears to be TWO Valkyrie-type battlestars docked side-by-side at the Caprica City Interplanetary Spaceport - two ships supposedly created for the Colonial Fleet WAY before there even existed a Colonial Fleet. This may be an Easter egg, but for me, I think the Valkyrie-type was an old Caprican design that pre-dated the First Cylon War (and by extension, the Colonial Fleet) and might've served in the pre-Unification Caprican Navy.

[@heathernks8]

This was on President Adar and the Cylons, not Adama.

[@bigbitehood1353]

8:05 oooooffff

[@JhoomerSahib]

This couldn't have been done with a probe on the edge of the line? And nobody told Bulldog what would happen if detected? This part of the ep made no sense.

[@deathstrike]

So let me get this straight, Adama blames himself for the Cylon invasion of the Colonies? He was a military man, following the orders of his superiors with what would be assumed to be the same kind of oath that the military of our society has to take. That you follow the lawful orders of those appointed above you. He was in a untenable position, a mission that if it ended in failure, the Adar Administration would clearly deny EVER happened. So why then, did they send a stealth spy ship with NO self destruct, NO Plan B, and clearly NO real chance of success? You would think a highly advanced and space faring civilization would have the slightest clue how to execute a mission across enemy lines? First and foremost if they are capable of creating a stealth craft, surely they could have created an entire strike ship like the Valkyrie with the same material and paint? Both should have been stealth, BOTH should have had FTL at the spool. Since it's an Armistice line surely it could not have encompassed the entire sector? It had to have a back door because Adama in his early day did meet the Ghost Fleet and they were not detected. So nobody could simply have sent an unmanned drone shaped like an ordinary transport to skim the Armistice line? It could have had a "malfunction" of it's DRADIS and "accidently" drift across for a very quick scan. The Cylons could have lodged a complaint at the station designated for meetings. Sorry, we had a malfunction of a new automated transport ship and it drifted over. You are welcomed to keep it and scan it. There is no AI or advanced automation as per treaty. That's unfortunately where the story had hiccups. Adama, while an excellent officer and great Commander, would NEVER be allowed to make the kind of decisions that led to the fall of the Colonies. He had a job to do, and that job sometimes has unfortunate consequences. But while he had only his own flaws to bear, he didn't need to bear the guilt for the murder of billions. The Cylons would have attacked anyways as they always had. As Pythia said: "All this has happened before, and all of this will happen again". This episode was more of the beginning of the downturn for writing for BSG. But as always Edward James Olmos gave his best. I would hope his friend would forgive him as he knew the risks as well and took the mission.

[@qewqeqeqwew3977]

No, Number One started the war for his own purposes, it was all about the relationship between The Seven and The Five, not about humans at all.

[@Tishers]

In the timeline of events the final five were placed back in the colonies at least thirty years prior for Colonel Saul Tigh 30-40 years earlier. I have to assume that Ellen, Galen, Samuel and Tory were embedded earlier or at a much younger (physical age). As Adama said, he remembered when Saul Tigh still had hair so they age at roughly the same rate as humans. The other seven (derived Cylons) came along either at the same time (thinking about #1's age) and at much younger physical ages. That is a discontinuity to me because why resurrect in to your physically older form? That didn't make much sense; Why not resurrect in to your earliest age of creation where your physical conditions are at their peak? It also means too that on Resurrection there must be backup copies of the original five unless their organic growth media can take pink goo and sludge and create an organic body in a matter of a few hours (another reference to how long it takes to resurrect, even after the building bombing). We know that the fighter ships also resurrect and accumulate combat experience and memories of their own deaths/destruction. I would assume that the fighter ships being semi-organic also left with the machine Cylons at the end of the series. Maybe the biological cylons did not gain resurrection as Tory was strangled by Galen before she could contribute her portion of resurrection technology to the combined efforts following the acceptance of terms by #1. My point being, that those biological-five did not get in to the colonies by themselves. It required several covert missions to implant them in to the human colonies and likely they replaced the physical existences of people who had already been born. They must of been captured, had their memories stripped and used as an overlay in to the final-five. Then naturally the Cylons would of killed/disposed of them. #1 could not justify any sort of war based upon "you started it first with your ship crossing the border" because they had already done so at least 30-40 years earlier. Also, to implant a Sharon in to the human colonies had to take place at least ten to fifteen years earlier for her to go to the academy and become a pilot.

[@SilentReflection101]

It only takes one. Ouch

[@wilsoncipriano]

I still wonder to this day whether the Cylons came to the line to investigate the stealth ship, or were they curious as to why a powerful warship was so close to their borders...

[@The_Irish_Wolf]

There is a costume mistake with Bill, he has admiral insignia on his uniform, he should be a commander on Valkyrie

[@sbuds3236]

What episode is this ?

[@uhfanzonly]

Honestly the Cylons were gonna strike anyway so if Adama had went in to save Bulldog and destroyed a couple raiders to start another war it wouldʻve been better than getting your network hacked and getting annihilated in a day.

[@stuartreid1064]

We discussed that

[@mkvector9539]

Marcion, from Kane's Wrath?

[@scottm8292]

Same actor.

[@BobBob-kr5wr]

This is what happens when you don't talk to the other side.

[@adwebbjr6]

The Cylons were preparing for 40 years to attack humans, way before the Valkyrie incident. The Valkyrie incident 3 years before the attack was a convenient excuse.

[@Recessio]

So they shot down his ship to avoid detection by the Cylons... When the cylons had already detected it, jumped in, and shot at it?

[@zakthorne4147]

My thoughts exactly. Not the only thing I've caught thag doesn't make sense. Like the Commander that suffocated because he locked himself in an air tight chamber to try and fix the oxygen leak. Which he did fix it. And instead of opening the hatch and flooding the room with oxygen now that the leak is fixed; they just the hatch closed and let him die. I really enjoy this show but these are major issues. Far from the best show in television.

[@Seth90]

I belief the theory is, the first ship, that shot at the recon ship, wasn't a Cylon but a Colonial one. Send by a faction within the admiralty that tried to fabricate a new war to finally get rid of the Cylons once and for all.

[@royalhunter3937]

@@Seth90 ngl that I can believe

[@Recessio]

@@zakthorne4147 i think that was an outward opening hatch, so they may not have been able to overcome the pressure differential from the vacuum?

[@Recessio]

@@Seth90 6:20 seems that Lee and Adama think all three ships were Cylon, but I guess its possible that they never knew if it was actually another colonial and not cylon

[@kmccabe1962]

yes - next question?

[@karenmurray3098]

i loved this series , the bigest problem was the camera operators wer drunk 😂

[@Luisin88]

This is why embassies exist, so both nations can know wtf is going on during an incident as quickly as possible.

[@dynestis2875]

What exactly was it that jumped in, shot Bulldog and then jumped out? If it was a Cylon raider, then why did the other 2 that later intercepted him not also jump in right on top of him alongside the first vessel?

[@jimtomav20]

The first DRADIS contact appears even closer to the line than the S-star and then disappears before the other 2 arrive; its not like the higher ups in the colonies wanted to start a war and had just ordered their own ship to be there..................oh wait....

[@wrayday7149]

Doomed from the word go. Stealth Star - Open Comms transmission in a non-comms heavy environment is going to stand out. Even if they can't crack it. The fact their Battle Star was tracking it also meant it was transmitting or detectable by radar. Parking a Battle Star right on the boarder would call even further attention to the area. What they should have learned from that event is the Cylons had some sort of passive detection and defensive measures network up and running along their border.... but they should have assumed that beforehand and did it the way they did.

[@majorlagg9321]

He thinks the Valkyrie mission started it when the Cylons had already crossed the line and had the Colonial society and military infiltrated with the intent of sabotage?

[@turtlesploodgegaming3123]

Stealth star, eh?

[@alfredovilla8560]

Typical human hubris.....and this is an excellent demonstration of it.

[@alhemmings8554]

Never mind planting the final five in the colonies? Planning for war years beforehand? Cavil's jealousy and hatred started all this.

[@Koskinen2000]

Thks is why they locked cap up

[@mikemklee]

We need a reboot of this show

[@dreamcore]

oh no we don't tho we're getting a woke version anyway

[@2KOOLURATOOLGaming]

@@dreamcore How do you know it's woke if it ain't out yet? Don't judge it before you watch or it will cloud your judgement.

[@dreamcore]

@@2KOOLURATOOLGaming NBC in current-year? Yeah I'm sure it'll be based

[@aztalyido]

@@dreamcore a rerbot is already in development for the new streaming service for NBC peacock

[@johniii8147]

@@aztalyido That’s why they’ve been sending out these clips

[@junheceta268]

J’onn J’onzz was on the Galactica???

[@uwillnevahno6837]

It literally makes zero sense. The Cylons clearly knew the stealth ship was in their territory. They were able to target and neutralize it. Valk firing upon it only confirms it's a Colonial mission. Even if firing doesn't provide confirmation, a Colonial ship is observed firing into Cylon territory which is and of itself a provocation.

[@darrinwebber4077]

Its funny... The "Humans" were created by the gods. The Cylons were created by the Humans. I wonder... Did the Humans destroy the gods? Given the frequent references to the past/history repeating itself? Were Humans. And also... Its funny... The Humans and Cylons...both were able to be killed...but otherwise seem immortal. And became the mythical gods of Earth. In final episode... Six says..."You know he doesn't like to be called that." Was she referring to a philosophical deity? Or Adama? Hmmmm.

[@michaelking9964]

I can't stand it when people use the Nuremberg defense for improper actions. And yet I do see how important following orders are in military situations. It's a tough thing.

[@giantclam1822]

Either way....The Cylons were loaded for bear.

[@cloudstone123]

This is the kind of thing that always bothered me about the series. The writers create obvious problems and make zero attempt to correct them while trying to portray characters as being smart and yet make them dumb and have them make stupid plans. So they sent a stealth ship over the line knowing that if discovered it would trigger a war they could lose. Did they consider what to do if caught? Apparently not because Adama was wrestling with the decision to take it out. But even if we assume that it was assumed the stealth ship would have to be destroyed if detected, how is the wreckage in space not a violation? Even at the moment that Adama sent the missile, unless he was brain dead, he had to have known that they were discovered so what the hell was the point of blowing up the stealth ship? What was their cover story? And what was going to be their reason for firing a missile to blow up this ship? Let him get captured and try to disavow him as some kind of renegade? Did they think the Cylons would even buy any kind of cover story if they did even approach to colonies to ask what the hell was going on? And did the colonists think that the pilot wouldn't eject when he saw the surprise missile lock? Were they planning on trying to rescue him so he couldn't be questioned by again violating the armistice by crossing over to get him? These are the some of problems with this ridiculous plan and all the easy to predict problems that the writers created for themselves. They could have set it up by saying there was a self destruct mechanism rigged to make it look like some kind of accident and not have informed the pilot. It would have taken maybe a few seconds to mention it and you'd have Adama still wrestling with thinking of pressing a button to trigger it just before the pilot ejected before his ship blew up which still wouldn't have ruined what they were trying to accomplish.

[@GeneralGrievous-1138]

All of this is covered in the episode. Roslin points out at the end, and it's implied that she's right, that this is probably exactly how the admiralty wanted the mission to turn out. They *wanted* a war - that was why they were breaking the armistice in the first place.

[@cloudstone123]

@@GeneralGrievous-1138 They pointed out how they planned on covering the whole thing up? I remember nothing of the sort. And they want to wage a war with an enemy they knew nothing about anymore and with whom they achieved no clear victory the last time they fought? I am not sure if that makes it worse. So lets assume they wanted to start a war with the Cylons even if it is only implied. The plan was to launch a stealth fighter to do what exactly? That isn't even made clear what it was going to do. Do they have any indications that the Cylons are anywhere near the border? But lets set that issue aside and lets assume they wanted to find out if the cylons could detect this stealthy ship. So now what? Cyclons come in against this intruder that violated the peace. Now the humans definitely started the war and both sides know it. I'm sure the admiralty will have zero problem remaining admirals after that plan. Now maybe the plan was to then label the pilot as a 'rogue' or something so they blew him up. Again we have the issues I mentioned above. Except the entire crew know the pilot wasn't rogue so unless the government planned on questioning no one about it, the admiralty was completely relying on the Cylons not making some kind of diplomatic complaint about this violation. This whole plan then hinges on the Cylons being completely mindlessly aggressive, which we already know isn't the case otherwise the peace agreement with them would never have happened in the first place. My original points still stand. The plan has so many holes the admiralty might as well collectively shot themselves in the head for something so stupid.

[@AgentScion1]

It sounds like you've never delt with a large organization or people. Thats entirely the whole point, people make stupid mistakes. Even those who should know better. Congrats on that flying over your head.

[@mollari2261]

Filler episode

[@Synthonym]

Apollo was such a good, ethical man. A hundred times the man his father was (which is saying something)

[@brianhughes701]

This is the one episode of BSG that seemed way too contrived and because of it is my least favorite episode.

[@Nick871203]

makes me laugh that they were dormant cause they were building their war machine.... the basestars were a complete joke, using the 1 weapon that the colonial fleet can easily counter, missiles... no projectile weapons of any sorts other then their fighters. i get their goal was to swarm each colony with nuclear missiles but still.... the fact an outdated and partially dismantled retired warship converted into a museam is able to hold its self against a basestar lol

[@persistentapparartionkitty5830]

Because Adama is a Cylon that’s why!

[@zakthorne4147]

What season are you on?

[@persistentapparartionkitty5830]

@@zakthorne4147 I’m on season 6 of the unreleased BSG Cylon Blue Ray edition.

[@zakthorne4147]

@@persistentapparartionkitty5830 Frak me. I didn't know about that

[@persistentapparartionkitty5830]

@@zakthorne4147 not many do see I lucked out with my DNA Test showing I’m half Cylon so I’m allowed access to the hidden BSG seasons.

[@Mobius_118]

@@persistentapparartionkitty5830 Wait a second...

[@beyerch]

Stupid plot device. Obviously the Cylons would see the missle and know something was up....... Would have been better making up some B.S. about a failure causing the ship to go over the line.......

[@Search_In_Google]

I think that cylons would have been destroyed by colonials if revealed, so they decided to attack first. Think about it - colonials space fleet was far more powerful than cylon fleet (they could't destroy weakened Galactica during 5 years of war due to uneffective weaponry and tactics. In direct equal combat Galactica, pegasus vs 3 Basestars -basestars sucked. They could win only if there are 1 Galactica and 4-5 basestars around it. ), human were afraid of cylons and Admiralty wanted small victorious war. Cylons space vessels are strategic nuclear missile platforms and sucked in direct combat against modern battlestars - they would have losed conventional war.

[@kellysondesterroaguiar4570]

But that's the point, they made the basestar as missile platforms to bombing the 12 colonies. If they haven't decided to do that, to exterminate the human race, their fleet would be prepared to conventional war. You can check the deadlock series, the cylons ships for the first cylon war was more than capable.

[@Search_In_Google]

@@kellysondesterroaguiar4570 yeah but cylons put all balls in one basket. What would happen if virus in Colonial Navigational Programm didn't work? They would have to fight with conventional weapons. If you decide to destroy such powerful human civilization it's very stupid to rely on only one tactic, you need backup plans. It's like german blitzkrieg - when it failed, germans failed to imagine something else for fighting with stronger enemy.

[@Search_In_Google]

@@kellysondesterroaguiar4570 what if there was entire flotilla warships, not only Galactica, or half of colonial warships survived? Cylons couldn't destroy with conventional weapons one old battlestar until it rotten from metal fatigue, how'd they suppose to fight with more significant forces if they survived?

[@kellysondesterroaguiar4570]

@@Search_In_Google yeah, in the moment that they start their plans to exterminate the human race, there was no chance for winning a normal war. If the colonials caught them off guard they would be doomed. They taked a great risk doing this, in trust too much that the plan wouldn't fail. I think maybe this was an way that the writers find to make the battlestar galactica survive after so many encounters. Which out that the galactica wouldn't even reach the season 3. It's funny, in the end galactica was suffering more from age than with the attacks from basestars kkkkk

[@2KOOLURATOOLGaming]

The cylons knew that colonials wouldn't attack and if they did, they would know well before. They made basestars to bomb the colonies, not fight in space.

[@Golgafrinchamdent]

But if the cylons jumped in and fired upon his stealth ship, then they already knew he was there in violation of the armistice... so how does destroying the ship _prevent_ detection???