Why paternosters are not dangerous

[@gorak9000]

When you think you've idiot proofed something, the world invents a better idiot

[@isakfilbrt1125]

Can we make natural selection legal?

[@gorak9000]

@@isakfilbrt1125 Who said it isn't? Dumb people take themselves out all the time. The problem is we react to that by putting warning labels on things, or restricting things for everyone because of the dummies. Everyone's top priority at all times and costs now is "risk reduction", which is stupid. The dumb people are always going to be dumb, don't let that affect everyone else.

[@xx133]

or people with disabilities, children, or overweight? Engineering is about accomodating preexisting constraints, if it doesn't do that, then there is a flaw in the design, and room for improvement.

[@core36]

@@xx133there is an improved design, it’s called an elevator But if you choose to use the old design, you can always put a label on it saying “no children” or “not wheelchair accessible” But you can’t really put a label on saying “not for stupid people”

[@arcturuslight_]

@@gorak9000 Nobody calls these dangerous for endangering stupid people. Nobody cares for people who hurt themselves by misusing the thing on purpose. They are considered dangerous for endangering distracted people, children, disabled and elderly.

[@edattfield5146]

I like the way you can trade your elevator claustrophobia for a whole new set of fears.

[@Iisakki3000]

Yeah that's definitely way worse 😂

[@AJMansfield1]

Elevators are certainly still safer, though. There's no "unless you reach out and do something stupid" with a properly code-compliant elevator -- the bare minimum stupidity needed to get hurt in an elevator involves having and bringing specialized tools.

[@arcturuslight_]

@@AJMansfield1 You can certainly do much more without special equipment. You just should've seen what happens when a dog's leash ends up in the door and hangs the poor thing when the elevator starts to move. The real difference is that the elevator or escalator are hard to misuse on accident, it has to be on purpose, while that thing can easily harm someone who has difficulty paying attention or reacting quickly enough.

[@SmallSpoonBrigade]

That's true, a bigger issue with these is that since they don't stop the way that elevators do, it can be a real problem to get people in wheel chairs on and off as you don't have the same leniency with a wheel chair that you would with being a human with legs that can step up or slightly down to meet the platform. I'm fairly sure that these could be designed in a way to make it more or less impossible to hurt yourself, but doing so would be complicated and probably lead to increased costs in terms of maintenance.

[@MrFusselig]

Yeah.. and Elevators stand still when you move in or out. Especially elderly people might misjudge a step and fall. Even if you don't get crushed, you can still break several bones.

[@brianshea2515]

It seems less likely that you could get trapped in one of these. I was stuck in an elevator for about 90 minutes with 2 non talkative people. No danger as far as we knew, but no fun.

[@MrFusselig]

@@brianshea2515 True

[@Poldovico]

"Come on you'd have to be stupid for that" Or unconscious, which people are sometimes. Or not fully in control of your motor functions, which people are sometimes. Or five years old, which people are sometimes. Or drunk, which people are sometimes. Or having a seizure, which people are sometimes. You get the picture.

[@demeter1793]

"Paternosters are not dangerous" *explains how they are more dangerous than normal elevators*

[@galvanizeddreamer2051]

"Dangerous" in the context of there being a potential danger, is different to the context of it being an active harmful element. I like his comparison to an escalator, as outside of China, those are a safe-unless-you-do-something-stupid kind of thing. Which, in reality, is most things in life.

[@Wise_That]

They trade a small amount of risk for a MASSIVE increase in throughput. An elevator is limited to one car moving one direction per shaft. A patternoster has one car per shaft, per floor. That's like 10x to 20x the capability

[@bentonrp]

It's a death trap!

[@MikehMike01]

It’s not an elevator it’s an escalator

[@arcturuslight_]

"As long as you don't misuse it" - no, you are describing it as safe as long as people don't make mistakes. And that's a bad assumption to say the least. If people were always in perfect shape and mind, we wouldn't need any safety features. This shows how these are less dangerous than common folk imagines, but calling it as safe as elevators and escalators is a stretch.

[@byron.]

Clearly never seen an escalator accident, they’re dangerous as hell

[@robertnett9793]

Great. Now, whenever I see a pater noster I have to concentrate to not give into the intrusive thoughts :D

[@arcturuslight_]

@@byron. yes, I have seen it? an overstuffed escalator is just waiting to become a domino effect death trap. Living in a city with very deep metro stations and thus extremely long escalators, I am honestly surprised that it happens so rarely.

[@SmallSpoonBrigade]

@@byron. Yep, there is a reason why escalators have a kill switch at both ends where regular people can hit the button. But, for the most part, as long as you don't wear any dangly clothing and stick to where you're supposed to be standing, the likelihood of anything really bad happening is rather low.

[@klausstock8020]

So...abolish stairs?

[@BltchErica]

This is dangerous because the point with such things you use daily is that someone, one day, is bound to perhaps enter one for the hundreth time, maybe really tired, and make one mistake out of lack of attention, that costs them an arm or their life. In that sense, this is far more dangerous than a regular modern lift, which is simply foolproof.

[@praevasc4299]

Maybe you should watch the video. The point was that you will not lose an arm because of a lack of attention, as there are flaps installed which are designed to give way if you forget yourself and stick out a limb. The only way to injure yourself is if you plan for it deliberately, but then stairwells are just as dangerous because you could climb the handrail and jump off.

[@BltchErica]

@ Maybe YOU should watch the video. The point is that there are chambers that you can in fact stick your hand in and it can get caught and ripped off, as well as other hazards that he showed in the film, if you actually watched it, and he stated you'd have to deliberately be doing the wrong stuff to get hurt. That's where my point becomes relevant, as it only takes one mistake from lack of attention to get badly hurt or killed. The flaps are not foolproof either. Depending on how you get caught, it's obvious you could get seriously hurt, especially a bigger person. The flaps also look very heavy. You would not have a good time being caught, that's certain. A modern lift is kilometres ahead of this in safety.

[@termitreter6545]

Yeh. To me the video would be better titled "paternoster are not as dangerous as you might think" or so. But hey, props to the video creator for actually showing the flaws as well.

[@XavierHyena]

A standard lift isn't fool-proof. The doors on the car and floors can usually be forced open without tools as a rescue/escape method. If you're outside you can access the shaft. If the door shuts upon, for example, clothing or a lead for a dog or child harness it can get caught and dragged as the car moves. Door limit switches wouldn't detect a small article, and it's possible a doorway sensor wouldn't either. In many countries safety systems and maintenance aren't enforced or even required. Also cargo lifts may be treated different. There's countless reports of lift accidents even in recent times. A broken governor would rapidly ascend the car to hit the top. Inadequate or missing door and doorway sensors present a crush risk. People may enter/leave a mis-levelled car just as the system tries to realign by moving to the next floor, or simply try to pass closing doors.

[@PanDiaxik]

A standard lift also has a danger of getting trapped in it. And because there's usually made of metal, there is often no signal to call for help. While the alarm button is there, it doesn't have to connect to emergency services, it's often the lift operator that may or may not come fast enough

[@lwpdhofgh]

Even if these were unsafe they can make them way safer with more modern technology. They can be built with more light bars, photoeyes and other sensors and have advanced logic to calculate whether someone is about to get injured and stop the machine.

[@ennayanne]

ah yes, that's what the world needs. more "safety AI" it works so well on the driverless cars

[@handytech9481]

@@ennayanne That isn't "AI" or machine learning, but just other safety criteria that can trigger some sort of failsafe.

[@WiiPetUwU]

@@ennayanne A simple "light barrier" has nothing to do with AI....

[@KC9UDX]

Complexity is never the answer

[@monad_tcp]

that makes it unsafe, more complex parts to fail

[@sperzieb00n]

you know whats even less dangerous? regular elevators

[@benrex7775]

And even less dangerous is a plain old ramp. If you don't have moving parts you can't get squeezed.

[@anim8dideas849]

Might as well use stairs or a ladder

[@neurofiedyamato8763]

​@@anim8dideas849Stairs and ladders actually can be quite dangerous. Plenty of slip and fall cases.

[@uiopuiop3472]

this is cooler tho

[@Elevators_around_Europa]

The safest are actually the stairs…

[@richardamullens]

There was a paternoster at imperial college London in the chemistry department and a paternoster at GEC in Borehamwood. I suspect that the building may have been demolished. In one of those two paternosters there was a fatal accident when a painter got into the lift carrying a ladder. It seems that there have been advances in safety since I last used one around 1982.

[@nemo-x]

I mean.... That's literally blocking the lift from moving that would kill you anywhere.

[@richardamullens]

@@nemo-x Yes, very hazardous Those paternosters had ceilings, nothing like those described in the video. I'm not aware that they had any safety features.

[@Mordecrox]

Even regular elevators can have that issue, look up "klammrisk".

[@lwpdhofgh]

I've never been on a paternoster but worked at a factory that had a "man-lift" which is probably more dangerous and more exciting

[@namethathasntbeentakenyetm3682]

They need a visit from OSHA

[@DieselDucy]

THANK YOU for making this video!! I am so tired of people saying how dangerous they are when they are not. All they require is a little bit of common sense.

[@MrHack4never]

The problem is how rare common sense is nowadays

[@RossTheGenMan]

common sense is no longer common

[@johnrauner2515]

That's a hard thing to find in a world full of social media

[@agranero6]

Properly built ones are not dangerous. I saw some that aren't. Not all things are made to Denmark standards. Come to Brazil to see how security specifications were or maybe are. Recently a new elevator killed two employees of a moving company almost in the anniversary another one of the same brand killed 3 people. Bit well maintained ones. In fact I am surprised there are still living people in my country. UPDATE: seriously: 15 minutes after writing that I suffered an accident caused by the lack of caution of third parties on my building. I hate my country lack of care and "it was mot a big deal" attitude about every criminal lack of care for human life.

[@JonBrase]

To be fair, they've been perceived as dangerous for as long as they've been around. That's why they're called paternosters. As you step in, you start reciting "pater noster qui es in cælis..." ("Our father who art in heaven...").

[@The1wsx10]

the possible throughput is impressive, but it really doesn't seem that safe. people who are drunk or a group of roudy teens could get caught. it also doesn't seem suitable for wheelchairs. maybe if the building had one modern lift for accessability next to a patternoster for throughput, but its still not completely foolproof

[@neplatnyudaj110]

My university had 5 floors and three paternosters - it's the best thing ever! There's no better way to move hundreds of people in a short amount of time. And yes - there was also an elevator for disabled.

[@Ariverfish]

Natural selection

[@Tenajeh]

"Misuse" of a paternoster: step in too early and fall down / put your hands in one of the many gaps, have baggage or baby strollers with you / hit one of the flaps while being fatter than the flaps allow / react too late and stumble / try to use it while drugged, disabled or too old / be an overly curious child / ... Misuse of an elevator: Deliberately get on with too many, too heavy people and jump up and down while the thing is going. Beno: "There is no risk! Except of course here, and here, and here ..." Video: *shows a bunch of warning signs of dangers and other signs banning disabled people and people with baggage from using it at all.

[@alsmoviebarn]

And if you do that in an elevator, the very worst that will happen is it shuts down and you have to be rescued by the fire department. To actually be hurt by an elevator you need to jimmy the doors open somewhere they shouldn't be...

[@Ariel-r3h]

Or just have an unexpected medical situation and faint while waiting. I saw someone almost crushed by an underground train because of this once. Unfortunate timing and place. Even worse, people who often faint/have seizures or just have poor coordination.

[@HDL_CinC_Dragon]

@@Ariel-r3h This is the part that bothered me the most about this video. Every excuse for why it's safe was "You'd have to be a fool!" which is incredibly ignorant to reality, IMO.

[@tictacterminator]

all those sound like skill issues

[@tictacterminator]

@@HDL_CinC_Dragon projection

[@danceycat6446]

i think i'm happy with regular elevators accessible to people with disabilities, and you can carry things on them if you need to people have off-days. i'll take no risk of dying over a minuscule one when an elevator works perfectly fine

[@yommish]

The contrasts between the neon-style signage, nice well-lit wood paneling, and dim mechanical spaces, plus the vertigo effect of looking down the shaft make this footage feel like some bizarre dream or psychedelic exaggeration to me. Along with the constant repeating motion happening despite there being hardly anyone else around in the big reverberant building… Nowadays you’d call it “liminal.” Strange space to my American brain. I’m also on very little sleep, which could be contributing to the effect. Anyways, I want to go to there.

[@mhandle109]

Who else is here because of the YT algorithm suggesting a topic you didn’t even know exists?

[@FroggyMosh]

Here

[@pengindoramu]

Safety measures are NOT for when things go right. Safety is for when things go wrong! A lot of people lost life or limb before people took safety seriously.

[@ennayanne]

the fact that you can stick your hand in the moving chain is still incredibly dangerous, regardless of how stupid one would have to be to do it. there are a lot of stupid people, that's why safety precautions exist in the first place

[@integerofdoom69]

And that is a problem. We should not protect the stupid.

[@jamesphillips2285]

@@integerofdoom69 I ran out into traffic while stressed a few years ago (not suicidal; just not looking). Should the motorist have hit me instead of using the brakes? Everybody has off days.

[@arturjogi6054]

@@integerofdoom69 Eugenics does not work. This theory was the basis of the genocides carried out by the nazis. Now, i wonder why you would also think this way?

[@OneTrueCat]

Like the guy who made this video touching all the do-not-touch stuff? We were watching this just waiting for him to mess up and get hurt...

[@jamesraykenney]

Hey, that's okay, they will just get awarded a Darwin award!

[@noblenumbat]

Hitachi once made a lift concept where they basically made a paternoster but the individual lift cars can individually start and stop at each floor. And in this concept lift model each lift car is like a normal lift with doors, not open like in a normal paternoster. Edit: One of the things Hitachi touted in their promotional material was how safe this was compared to a normal paternoster, as the lift cars can independently start and stop. You do not have to jump on and off the cars, plus it does away with the need for safety flaps.

[@SimonBauer7]

its the same as thyssenkrupps dual (i think thats what its called, beno can correct me here) and the multi concept, which is 4d chess with elevator cars.

[@noblenumbat]

​@@SimonBauer7 Well, kind of. The ThyssenKrupp TWIN system is two independent lifts sharing a single regular lift shaft. MULTI, on the other hand involves multiple lift cars moving horizontally and vertically in a single shared lift shaft. Meanwhile the Hitachi multi-car concept involves multiple independent lift cars circling between two shafts in a loop like a paternoster. The short version is that all three systems take different approaches to achieve the same goal - sharing lift shaft space between multiple lift cars

[@YunxiaoChu]

Cool

[@techgeeknzl]

​@@noblenumbatCan we make one out of glass and call it a Wonkavator?

[@noblenumbat]

@@techgeeknzl Maybe, who knows? Ask TKE - they're the ones behind the MULTI aka the IRL Wonkavator 🤣

[@sean..L]

They may not actually be dangerous but they do seem anxiety-inducing.

[@coolbean9880]

as do elevators tbf

[@MrSaemichlaus]

I really like the concept and I would love to take a ride on one. I have never seen one in real life myself. Just one thought: you show footage where you look straight down into a car from the top. That means if someone is on that car coming up and somebody falls in from above, the other person will be hit. It can happen. Safety is never about the case of proper use, it's about people who are not familiar, or youngsters committing foreseeable misuse, or just slipping up.

[@kungfooman]

**Why were Paternoster lifts banned?** Paternoster lift - Wikipedia Because the accident risk is much greater than for conventional elevators, the construction of new paternosters is no longer allowed in many countries. In 2012, an 81-year-old man was killed when he fell into the shaft of a paternoster in the Dutch city of The Hague.

[@TemporalEngineering]

Very neat. Being legally blind, I have bad depth perception [meaning how far away/close I think something is]. So I feel I would struggle with these compared to a normal lift, it is very nice to see safety features like the flaps. I personally feel without the ceilings I would board the car to early and potentially fall/hurt myself, but the barriers on the Prague design would give me a reference point. Do the flaps on the cars/floors below the top floor stop the paternosters, or is it only the top flap on the top floor?

[@randomblogger2835]

It does seem to be a difficult apparatus for the blind to use, there are many parts that could trap your cane, and you would also need a way to determine if car arriving is unoccupied, you will most probably need some sort of sighted guide. Only the top flap will stop the chain, the others are just to escape from the shearing action as the cars move past the floors.

[@CaptTheo]

Design without roof means, if someone higher accidentally drops an item, e.g. bag, it can struck someone's head. For example at the end of video where he goes all the they down, he always exposed to entrance at 1st floor.

[@nayR5]

It's really fun watching people get this passionate over something I've never heard of

[@bmeht]

"Not dangerous unless you do one of these 50 things at these 50 spots, or if you're in a less safe version of this thing somewhere else."

[@Fetablue]

You must have not watched the video. The scenarios he brings up seem dangerous, but were accounted for in the design, and he explains how they aren’t dangerous.

[@ungh8365]

Very nice model! There are still six operating paternosters in Finland 🇫🇮

[@finnishelevators0397]

Yesterday I was on a filming tour at Hämeentie 19 office building and Stockmann Helsinki Center department store staff area. They have working paternosters from the 1930s.

[@attipekkajames]

I rode the Hämeentie 19 many times.

[@attipekkajames]

The Kela and Elanto and Turku paternosters decommissioned later and only Hämeentie 19, Parlament and Stockmann paternosters still works.

[@finnishelevators0397]

@@attipekkajames So now there are only three working paternosters in Finland?

[@gaiamission7200]

and yet still all it takes is a tired or overworked professor making one mistake for one second too long and it can cause anything from a degloving to delimbing. It also is completely inaccessible to disabled people of any kind. I wouldn't mind these being kept as a tourist attraction, but an elevator should be available and should be the preferred method of conveyance

[@benjaminstorace6699]

I despise ALL instances of the ground moving under my feet, whether earthquake or elevator.

[@johnrauner2515]

Escalators are far more dangerous. They will crush and kill you and there are examples of that happening to people.

[@mushroomcraft]

and clothing such as shoe laces can get tangled pretty easilly

[@Welgeldiguniekalias]

This is not true. Escalators are safer to ride than paternosters. The main reason why paternoster accidents are so rare compared to escalator accidents is that there are hardly any paternosters in use (fewer than 1000), compared to about 800.000 escalators globally.

[@blohai]

@@Welgeldiguniekaliashey mind adding a citation to that argument about the safety?

[@heronimousbrapson863]

Escalators come with an emergency shut off button too.

[@Welgeldiguniekalias]

@@blohai Yes, I would. This is not Wikipedia. YT does not like links in the comments and if you don't believe me, try posting one.

[@timothyhayes9724]

The main issue with pater noster elevators is that they don't accommodate people with mobility disabilities well. Just thinking about an elderly person like your grandma trying to get on one with a walker, or someone who uses a wheelchair, or even just someone with a heavy load in a hand cart. The sign even indicates no baby carriages. The only reason I can see to keep these is to avoid the expense of putting in new elevators and novelty. But when push comes to shove and they need to be updated for building codes, these dont meet the needs of everyone so keeping one of these and putting in a modern elecator elsewhere in the same building is inefficient

[@user-ro1cc8tz6d]

"you do be absolutely stupid to do that" sudden hearth attack has a word for you

[@raeyner]

As you have explained, they are literally less safe than an elevator, and actively dangerous to anyone who may have a risk of fainting in a way that other solutions are not.

[@AstoundingAmelia]

Most places that have one have a regular elevator too however the paternoster is much better for throughput

[@MrMonkeybat]

A hybrid method would be to have normal elevator cars with doors which are then shunted back onto the paternoster when the doors close after you press the floor button. Combine the more elevator car with doors with most of the capacity of the paternosta.

[@bsadewitz]

... or just sink all the extra money into a faster elevator, heh.

[@MrMonkeybat]

@@bsadewitz For a tall building it might solve the elevator problem of only one lift per shaft.

[@bsadewitz]

@@MrMonkeybat en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arts_Tower This is a 38-story building with a Paternoster, which is pretty astounding. Tallest one in the world. Perhaps I misunderstand you. Are you proposing something like uncoupling a car from the paternoster for each floor its called on? I mean yeah, that does sound great, but wouldn't the shaft have to be 2+ cars deep (or wide, etc) in order to do that? It's an intriguing idea--I'll give you that. I just wonder whether the cost and complexity could be worth it. I can't say I really know. I think I am going to do some googling to see if such a beast were ever proposed ... and I think it has been. Don't know if it's still there, but apparently it was installed here: testturm.tkelevator.com/global-de/

[@joinedupjon]

Enjoyed using the one at newcastle uni (doubt it's there any more) Yeah they're ok for people who are quick on their feet and not idiots. Not suitable for the elderly and slow moving, wheelchair users, people using crutches etc... These are people you've got to allow for in public buildings. Theres a bit of a problem in university The one at newcastle had a sloping ceiling on the cabs iirc which I assumed was to push out the slow moving guy getting out of a downward moving cab 3:11...

[@DavidCookeZ80]

I remember that one from when I went on a tour during application. The students showing us around explained how it worked but told us school leavers *never* to go over the top. To drive the point home one of them went up while we waited, the came down doing a hand stand in the car!

[@theartofbanana]

Sure, but I fail to see the advantage over a plain boring elevator which also can be used by people who cant use stairs, with disabilities or deliveries. They are a nice technical monument to visit but thats it, technology moved on

[@Hii250]

The advantages are capacity, convenience and it's usually faster

[@theartofbanana]

@you find a paternoster convinient? Lol

[@benolifts]

It is very convenient. You don't have to wait for the lift to arrive.

[@theartofbanana]

For me, as a disabled person, it sounds like finding excuses to build hostile architecture for no reason. You know, you CAN also just take the stairs, very convenient. Or just wait 1min, slow down your life, whatever and take an elevator, where you dont need to look down because there is absolute zero chance to fall and even take a buggy with you, or a bike, or whatever you want, because its so convenient to have it just stop when entering.

[@arturjogi6054]

@@Hii250 capacity? they fit one person and you are not allowed to take ANY baggage or objects in with you. Convenience? Really? It might be faster i guess, unless there are a lot of people to move at once.

[@OfficialUSKRprogram]

Drunk people: watch me

[@FreebirthBoccara]

Same drunk person 5 seconds later: stop looking at me! *throws beer bottle*

[@raylast3873]

Everything is safe until the exact moment something goes wrong. My mom knew a guy who got paralized for life in a paternoster accident.

[@marks7502]

How about a curtain for the section where you shouldn't enter?

[@wisteela]

I love your illustration. 🙂 I looks fantastic. I love how it's all open. The chain risk is something I thought about on seeing the one in Sheffield University.

[@alexanderkupke920]

The university i studied at had a paternoster with cabins having roofs, but the roof was slanted. And part of the platform was a flap as well for the way down, like the flap in the floor for the way up.

[@klausstock8020]

Yes, I also remember the design with slanted (or rather curved, as I recall) roofs.

[@mipuist]

I also think those (at least the Prague ones) have a mechanism which halts the move if somehing pushes the "roof" (which is not solid). I guess this is a common solution. We had those at the University and from time to time some joker hit the roof to make the whole thing stop.

[@SummerADDE_Elevators]

It is like to argue why innerdoorless elevators are not dangerous lol.

[@q9a]

Engineers have made a lot of work to make it as secure as possible …… but You don´t considerate that people can lose conciseness …… for example as result of makking a mistake in relation to insulin …… and that may be the reason why new paternosters are prohibited in the EU ……

[@benolifts]

But that can also be said about driving vehicles. The main cause of bus and coach crashes is the driver loosing consciousness. This happens more often than people think. There is no secondary backup. When riding a bus you are fully dependent on one person driving the bus to do it safely. Then there is the Croydon tram crash, which was the same thing, the tram was entirely driven by the driver with no tripcocks or protections.

[@q9a]

@@benolifts You are Right …… as result of this have commercial Plains always two Pilots …… Rail traffic uses a watchdog who initiates an emergency break on no response …… and very modern street vehicles with advanced computers can automatic stop at the correct side and start emergency warning blinking and call 911. If technical Possible the case is taken in consideration …… and that is the reason why there are no new paternoster. That fixed by law as soon as secure alternatives are avail. With actual technologies it may possible to make paternoster also bulletproof by monitor its usage and automatic stopping or starting a recovery procedure if something goes wrong …… but lawmaker does not review their work from the past.

[@rancidmarshmallow4468]

​@@benolifts You realize "As safe as cars" is an insane statement, right? Like, the second least safe method of travel by far available to the average person, beaten only by motorcycles, e.g. the same thing but with less crash protection I like a fun old idea as much as the next person but these things are cool museum pieces that should really only be ridden for fun, or if you want a 30x higher chance of injury than any normal elevator, according to German estimates

[@nacaclanga9947]

Are they actually illegal? That surprises me as someone whose employer has a running paternost in one of their older office builds in the EU. My feeling was that you need to install a normal lift for disabled people and because of that, there isn't really a big benefit of building a paternoster.

[@benolifts]

@@nacaclanga9947 It is called "reasonable adjustment" A building owner is not under any obligation to make physical alterations to a building to make it disabled friendly. But if building alterations are being made anyway, then it is unreasonable to not make the building disabled friendly. Look at how many London Underground stations do not have lifts, but when a new entrance is built, or a new underground line is built, then lift shafts are tunnel bored and constructed to all platforms (not just the new ones). This is because if they are boring new tunnels, then its unreasonable to not also bore a new lift shaft at the same time. However, take a look at Highbury and Islington station, which has no lifts, but this station actually has unused shafts all the way from the platform to the old abandoned station entrance across the road. These are actually lift shafts from back before the escalators were added, so since this station has lift shafts, why does it still not have any lifts? Its because they are under no obligation to construct new lifts, but if ever in the future there was unrelated construction work (even if in a different part of the station), then they would be forced to construct the new lifts at the same time.

[@maverick9708]

I think they are charming and wish they were more common, but let's all be honest here, they are more dangerous than other methods for a variety of reasons including the "if you do something stupid at the wrong time but otherwise not an issue" problems

[@DeputatKaktus]

The city hall in my home town also has a paternoster. I have used it numerous times. It’s fun. And if you don’t have your head buried in your phone you will do just fine. It is not rocket surgery.

[@error.418]

Prague?

[@DeputatKaktus]

@ No. I live in Germany. There are some Paternosters still around, mostly in city halls, universities and some buildings that aren’t publicly accessible. Building code here allows old Paternosters to be operated and maintained, but you cannot build new ones because “safety”, apparently.

[@error.418]

@@DeputatKaktus Nice! Thanks

[@arturjogi6054]

Oh yeah, blame the phones, it's always the phones, surely nothing else could make this dangerous, right? You know, like having bad eyesight. Or having a bad balance and stumbling. Grandma already falls down the stairs, and those aren't constantly moving around, hidden behind a corner at the moment you're supposed to start stepping on.

[@deemdoubleu]

I remember the one at GEC Borehamwood when I was there on a training course. A story told by the lecturer described how apprentices used to have competitions to see how many people they could get in the lift in one go!

[@kristofcsaszar5101]

First aid courses teach that if a person falls 2x their height, you should administer first aid as if they spine is broken, because from that height, it has a significant chance of happening. Average height: 1.75m Usual internal height of old buildings: 3+m You can fall in when, the car is just past the previous floor level. I'm not saying it's necessarily a deadly contraption, but if most of the modern elevators where like this, we'd get tired of hearing about this on the news every day.

[@Nilguiri]

I used to work at British Airways at Heathrow House on the Bath Road at Heathrow, and we had a paternoster there. I used it all the time, but I never really fully trusted it! Some people wouldn't even go near it! EDIT: I just asked ChatGPT if it's still there: 🤖The paternoster lift in British Airways' former Heathrow House building on Bath Road no longer exists, as the building has been repurposed. Heathrow House has been converted into 169 residential flats, with significant remodelling, including new standard lifts and updated facilities. The conversion process aimed to modernise the building entirely, leaving little room for retaining older infrastructure such as a paternoster lift​ If you’re interested in functional paternosters, one remains operational at Northwick Park Hospital in London, having been restored for limited use​.

[@FreebirthBoccara]

They arent particularly dangerous. But they are absolutely more dangerous then an elevator. There are more chances for harm on it then the alternative. And if your safety requires faith in the general public to not be stupid... then your not being safe.

[@jort93z]

Patenosters are great. However, elevators are usually used to provide accessibility to disabled people. People using wheelchairs, and many other people with decreased mobility, will not be able to use paternosters. So you'd need a regular elevator regardless, which sort of makes them obsolete.

[@Currywurst-zo8oo]

They are a replacement for escalators not elevators. They take up much less space so it would be possible to have them in more buildings. It's more about convenience than accessibility so I still expect them only in big stores and some other public buildings. We aren't missing out all that much right now but it could be nice to have more paternosters.

[@jort93z]

@@Currywurst-zo8oo in the patent it calls it "an improved lift, hoist, or mechanical elevator", so it, at least originally, was designed as an elevator. These are not suitable for stores as you can not transport goods with them. NOt sure how the throughput compares to escalators, i recon most regular escalators have about 5 times the throughput.

[@jort93z]

@@Currywurst-zo8oo The throughput is extremely low compared to escalators, you'd need like 10 of these to replace one set of escalators. You can also tell they are an alternative to elevators because they are used in buildings that would normally use elevators, like libraries, government offices..., not in places that use escalators, such as shopping malls or train stations. If you consider these an alternative to escalators, they are a terrible one. Also, escalators literally didn't exist yet when the paternoster was invented.

[@SmallSpoonBrigade]

@@Currywurst-zo8oo TBH, if I were designing these, I'd extend the platform into the paternoster itself using teeth. It would mean that you could stand on the edge and just move a few inches the rest of the way onto the lift before you exit the floor you're on. And with these moving so slowly, that shouldn't be much of an issue.

[@morrisstanforth3278]

not very wheelchair accessible though

[@thebush6077]

Meanwhile me, in the US, just now learning that these even exist to begin with 😂

[@HenryFollett]

Always a great time comimf to your vids Beno, keep up the great work and your definitely right they are safe, people need to do research ❤

[@daviddavidson505]

Your comparison of paternosters to escalators is quite good. This device has no advantages over an elevator to justify the increased risk. It's basically serving the same function as an escalator, and those are pretty useless too.

[@HarukiYamamoto]

Paternosters are not dangerous. Here is why they are dangerous.

[@skycaptain95]

Wow! That's incredibly dangerous. They should replace it with elevators.

[@benolifts]

How would you suggest that the Sheffield one is replaced. The building is too tall and has too many people for regular lifts to cope with. Plus the paternoster cars are not that big, and a lift car taking its place would be even smaller due to the counterweight. It isn't possible to reconfigure the building and build new shafts, there isn't the space. In Sheffield there is no option to remove the paternoster.

[@bsadewitz]

​@@benoliftsClearly, there is no conventional solution, and i don't have any bright ideas. Happily, the proprietors of the building aren't accountable to some randos in a comments section. At least we are still free to split into sects and impugn each other for sport! I will subscribe to your channel, though. Who isn't curious about elevators? (yes, "lift" coveys precisely the same thing in one quarter the syllables. I never would've joined the military, but I am willing to die on THIS hill for my country! *sheds tear*)

[@DelticEngine]

Thank you very much for such a wonderfully demonstrated and informative video! I had no idea how a paternoster really worked until now and I now see they are really quite safe.

[@raincity5004]

Not dangerous, but not idiot proof either

[@gayusschwulius8490]

"Not dangerous" is a stretch, really. There's still plenty of ways you can get hurt. But yes, they are not nearly as bad as you'd imagine when first presented the concept.

[@kxs7267]

My university had a paternoster, but shortly before I started there a workman got killed in it. He'd tried to take some timber with him and the plank snagged, broke, and fatally injured him. Which is presumably why they say you can't take goods on one. I do like the idea of them, though.

[@DeadKoby]

Add this to the list of things I didn't know existed until today.

[@Maker0824]

I will say, the defence of “you have to be stupid to injure yourself there” only works if it’s only used by mentally normal adults. when I was a kid I definitely injured myself touching things I shouldn’t. if children are allowed to go in there I wouldn’t be surprised if one crushed their hand. I’ve never seen one of these until now though. They look cool.

[@gayusschwulius8490]

Yep. We unfortunately always have to factor in children and mentally disabled people when it comes to safety.

[@CrustyBiker]

What a fascinating machine! I'd still be a bit scared until I've had a few successful trips on one, I've been to Prague but never knew of these things, I love the quiet and creakyness of it, the smoothness of the direction change, they are soo stylish compared with modern silver metal box elevators! ...thanks for making this video, I only clicked on this suggestion to know what a paternoster is and wondered why the man was standing on fork lift forks in front of students! 💁‍♂️😅

[@unstoppable2180]

8:50 the crushing risk is if one of the other shafts fall on you

[@whistlingsage9817]

It doesn't seem like it would have been difficult to attach switches to the safety flaps that would engage a electromagnetic clutch, which could then quickly stop the motion of the lift in case an object is stuck at one of the entrances; but I know that these machines were built in a time when people were expected to behave in a responsible manner, and a failsafe probably wasn't considered necessary.

[@C.I...]

The copenhagen design's open shaft thing could be solved by printing "wait" or similar on the shaft, then "step now" on the car's rear wall so the cars reveal and hide the right message appropriately to those stupid enough to injure themselves by stepping into nothing as they move up/down.

[@SimonBauer7]

they already have that. not in the car, but im the walls.

[@paradiselost9946]

barricades that only open when the floor is six inches or so from being "level"?

[@i00Productions]

It looks like the flaps are pretty thin.. also you say the top flap is safe because it doesn't go up past the flap.. yet it would be dragging your body into a wooden panel as it moves sidewards and crusing you from the side it appears from the top floor!

[@TellyMan200]

Amazing engineering and the lift cabins are such beautiful architecture

[@sarahivsutterb747]

For me - pater nosters - are a big big no-go! Just to watch this video gives me chills and anxiety! - I will never ever use it - never ever!

[@benolifts]

They are really not that bad. You should visit one in real life and see that they are not scary.

[@LukasJosai]

It looks intimidating but really isn't after the first ride. My 70+ you professor was still using it while I was at uni. In all the decades TUKE had it the only accident I ever heard about was some guy tripping while stepping out and breaking a leg. Hell I had classmate that would ride it with crutches

[@divVerent]

Not the paternoster is the dangerous part, but the shaft it is built into. I never thought of getting crushed as a common risk - I mainly thought of tripping while waiting for the car to arrive and ending up falling down the entire shaft. Which can be in part mitigated by having so many cars that the farthest you can fall is like 3 meters.

[@arturjogi6054]

easily enough to result in serious injury, and now you have an injured person in a moving cabin. Hope there are emergency stops in easily accessible locations.

[@OneTrueCat]

"the farthest you can fall is about 3 meters" Caaarrrrlllll... That kills people...

[@GermanPerfectionist]

Been a couple of years since I last watched your channel, but I see many new cheap flight adventure videos so I’ll have to check those out! Anyway, I never actually knew about the flaps on a paternoster, that does seem to make it quite safe. On the other hand, if they were still built today, I guess you could also just put a light barrier over each entrance, like on buses or trams? That way, if anything stuck out of the cabin at the point where it could potentially become dangerous it would just stop the lift temporarily? Seems like an obvious solution to me at least - and this way you could also stop the rotation until someone gets on, making it more efficient and less noisy 🤔

[@Dragon_Slayer_Ornstein]

The last time I was in a paternoster was in Essex universities library (Colchester). The thing about not putting furniture in it... well I went to get on and someone had stacked 2 tables inside... yup.

[@TheAero1221]

There is a 100% chance that someone will misuse this, intentional or not. I think its a shame, because I actually think these are super neat. They have an almost... whimsical(?) feeling to them.

[@thechumpsbeendumped.7797]

Take a drink every time he says paternoster...I dare you!

[@joshlunt7827]

Great video as always, Beno!

[@gljames24]

What if someone bumps you before the shaft meets your level?

[@dr.blauerkraut]

Came for info on paternosters. Stayed for Denmark and the great commentary! One 80 year old person has died on a paternoster here in Denmark, although this one was in Axelborg, and the specifics havent been made public. Common thought is that he was simply old and frail, and even the fail safe delivered too much pressure for someone of such an age. All in all i do not believe, nor have i ever, that it was particularly dangerous

[@syriuszb8611]

Sometimes, people are tired or are used to routine and not pay attention. If there is chance that someone does something weird, it will happen. The title should be "what makes patternosters safer, but not really safe".

[@Deutscher256]

Gus, get off the flap!

[@Andrewjg_89]

I definitely would like to take ride on that lift. Unless there has been accidents before where people have tripped or missed the gap whilst getting on it.

[@samuels1123]

How does maintenance work for this? I'd assume it's a bit tougher to maintain a chain of elevators vs one, especially if every elevator is jammed between floors and you need to figure out exactly which one has broken.

[@benolifts]

It would be similar to maintaining an escalator

[@techtinkerin]

That was cool, I have never heard of these before! 😎👍

[@crazyleyland5106]

If you're in America, there aren't any paternosters out there. If you're in the UK, there are only 3 of these left., and they were never very common.

[@awatt]

The company I worked at for over a decade in Acton has dozens of paternosters and not one accident.

[@nutzeeer]

i want a 2 speed paternoster with a secondary faster layer i can get on to be faster

[@benolifts]

That is an interesting idea, probably not possible to make safe, but it would be fun to step on the first paternoster at 0.3 m/s, then step to the next one at 0.6 m/s. I have thought about if something similar could be done with travelators. Have 5 travelators next to each other but without handrails. The first one goes 2 mph, then 4, 6 , 8 and the fastest at 10 mph. People would step from the pavment to the first travelator and then keep stepping sidways until they are on the fastest, then they would travel miles across the city on it. The travelators would act as a metro system. A city could be a grid formation, and the streets would have 3 levels, the lower level would be for cars, and the middle level would be pedestrianized, but with travelators for east west, and the upper level would be sky walk with travelators for north south. The travelators would be very long and travel across the entire city.

[@Murmel_Bahn]

I love the illustrations

[@CiscoWes]

I clicked on the video to find out just what the hell a “paternoster” is 😅

[@Glen_lastname]

Almost certainly safer than steps considering how many people fall down them, although some people do only have enough brains to breathe

[@damojfowler]

Parent and child walking towards said device,child breaks loose from parent and makes a dash for the lift with the open doors,falls down hole and break it's neck and dies...might not have happened yet but if it has the potential to happen IT'S NOT SAFE.

[@LuizDahoraavida]

Superb illustrations

[@ondrejbursa9969]

I am not really sure, but I think some ofbthe czech paternoster has also a flap on the roof of the car, but I havent tried it

[@ajuc005]

People drive to work in 2 ton vehicles at 90 km/h passing another 2 ton vehicles going 90km/h the other way with like 30 cm of safety margin, every year thousands of them DIE. If you lose consciousness while driving the default thing to happen is that you and some random people on the other end of your car just die. And nobody bats an eye. This is OK. But somehow paternoster of all the things is DANGEROUS :) People are irrational creatures normalizing what they experience and fearing what they haven't experienced.

[@benolifts]

Bus travel is more dangerous than people think. The safety of 50 people on a bus is entirely down to one person driving. There is no safety systems or dual redundancy. If the driver has a seizure or heart attack the bus will crash. It is interesting how everyone got so worked up over the Croydon tram having no dual redundancy, yet people don't care about buses, probably because not much can be done about it. Remembering back to when the Heathrow Pod opened, there was talk about ripping up all the streets in cities and redesigning them to be pod compatible, to allow driverless vehicles to run completely separate to regular traffic. This didn't happen as this plan for far too ambitious, and people are too obsessed with their cars, and there would be too much opposition to people giving up driving. So instead in the modern day, they now want driverless cars to run alongside manually driven cars, which is something that will never fully work. There will never be a true driverless car, due to the technicalities of the hazards of the road. The closest we have ever got is the Heathrow pod, which only goes between Terminal 5 and T5 business. It was supposed to have been extended to T5 long stay, Pilots parking, T2&3 business, T2&3 long stay, and terminals 2 and 3. But this extension never happened, so we are stuck with a depressingly tiny system. They even closed the pedestrian tunnel to T2&3 for this extension that didn't happen.

[@der.Schtefan]

You know that some months ago somebody got seriously injured in a paternoster in Berlin?

[@beyondfubar]

Didn't have any idea these existed. Want to ride this now.

[@marioisawesome8218]

wait, the kart body doesn't flip upside down when it reaches the end? that's not a real paternoster.

[@heronimousbrapson863]

I've never heard of this type of lift and I'm 72.

[@johnd6980]

This wouldn't work in america for a few reasons. 1. We have people who are borderline maliciously stupid. 2. We have very large people who would still get stuck and hurt regardless of the flaps.

[@ayylien]

They are more dangerous then an elevator but no reason they can't still be built. Children is one of the reason I see these as hazards because they have no sense of risk.

[@fredashay]

Fascinating! I had no idea such things existed!

[@boydprince1870]

I like this, however it will NEVER work in a country where people refuse to take responsibility for their actions or neglect. The country I'm thinking of would freely allow their children, (ages 4.0 to 40) to play on them. Some would insist the lift should stop to allow them to bring four people and four wide 40lb baby carriages on at the same time. The law suits that would ensue would put and end to building any building higher than 40ft because, if they can't ride one complete with air bags, safety bars and a big red stop button, ( that their 4.o to 40 year old child will not stop pressing), then NO ONE should be allowed to have one. Besides they are TOO slow and don't have a place for lawyers to advertise! (I'm thinking of you, SWEDEN!)