BEORN (the Skin-changer) vs SHELOB (the Giant Spider) | Who Would Win? | Middle-Earth Lore

[@stevenkobb156]

I always wondered why Tolkien gave spiders stings, since spiders inject victims with venom from their fangs. The rear of the abdomen has spinneretts, which they use to spin their webs. Then again, I think Tolkien describes Ungoliant as like a spider, not a literal spider, so it can have a stinger if it wants.

[@RobbyBurney]

Remember that they aren't spiders. They're creatures in the shape of spiders who weave literal void-darkness. Tolkien goes out of his way to say the best description for them is spiders

[@VladimirBlagoderov]

Because he was a philologist and knew nothing about biology. A though to consult the Museum of Natural History, just 5 minute walk from his college never occurred to him

[@stevenkobb156]

@@VladimirBlagoderov LOL

[@Gaminglord12]

@@VladimirBlagoderov Him being a philologist is actually why he is not in error; Tolkien was using an old usage of the word "sting", referring to a bite. The adaptations are in error when they give Shelob a stinger.

[@ianshaw1486]

I always thought, when regarding Shelob, that sting was synonymous to bite...a description of feeling, not mechanism. After all, we hear that she "stings" from orcs, not the most precise speakers. I think Jackson erred in being overly literal in giving her a stinger on screen.

[@DenizenoftheAges]

If it was Ungoliant, then the spider. But considering Sam with a little flash and a dagger chased off Shelob, Bjorn could definitely take Shelob.

[@zStC1]

Sam also has plot armor. Let's not pretend he doesn't.

[@coddyriggin]

I’d call the remnant light of a simaril more than just a flash, but I do agree Beorn would win. Wouldn’t be an easy fight tho. P.s. we don’t know how strong Shelobs venom is. It could be strong enough to knock out Beorn like it did Frodo, or at least greatly disorient him.

[@BC08]

Light of Eärendil and Sting were both pretty much Shelob’s version of Kryptonite. Whole different ball game for Beorn

[@MikeTheD]

@@zStC1 yeah exactly the plot dictated it, and it did put out the vibe that it was the most improbable thing ever. Also that Hobbits are wildly underestimated

[@hurin_thalion11]

@@zStC1 Tolkien's original manuscripts have Sam tackling gollum and going into the fire with him..he crossed it out and wrote 'Sam must live' in the margin

[@rofald]

Always fun to indulge in the "which fictional character could beat another in a fight" topic. Next we need to explore another important issue though: Could Ranger Strider keep Beorn Bear from stealing Bilbo's picnic basket? He is smarter than the average bear after all.😁

[@aaronboyce6743]

I think the what if videos are the best. Also the topic of this what if video is great. I would never have thought of the 2 together. Amazing as always

[@TheBrokenSword]

Awesome, thank you so much 😁

[@raphaelcalado4335]

Beorn would trash shelob so badly that it wouldn’t be even a contest. Also Beorn indeed is an ally of the Dwarves and co, he aided then, allow then to use his beloved ponies and was mostly pleased to confirm Gandalf’s account pf their adventures.

[@sage798]

Beorn was captured by orcs. Shelob lived in Mordor and the orcs and Sauron wouldn't even think about bothering her. beorn didn't even want to enter mirkwood and deal with the smaller spiders.

[@demonpride1975]

@@sage798 beorn literally had no reason to go into mirkwood. so that's kinda pointless, he was prowling to make sure orcs and spiders didn't leave mirkwood and invade his home or hurt the animals.

[@stevenkobb156]

I don't think that Samwise wounded Shelob on his own. He held up his sword and shelob, thinking to crush him with great strength, impaled herself on his sword.

[@marieroberts5458]

The Author himself answers this question. Not if mightier hands had wielded the blade ... would Shelob would have taken so bitter a pill. Shelob and her own hideous strength, strength greater than any Man or Elf, allowed her to impale herself on the Elf blade, and to pierce the protective coating, then the multilayered hide, THEN into the soft innards. Even one of the orcs said "No one has ever set a pin in her Ladyship." So it would be very hard for Beorn to get through the hide, but if he used his Man's cunning, he might stick with attacking the eyes and the legs... he would have some protection from the cuts and poisons, as well as a great shot at pulling off legs and parts of legs...collapse enough of those, and Shelob is badly crippled. So Beorn for the win, but only if he uses his head.

[@daveowens271]

Tomato - Tomahto...

[@demonpride1975]

not to mention the sword is of elven make so it's not like a normal sword that a human would use. so i am betting that aided him.

[@panhandlersparadise1733]

QotD? Gollum vs Mouth of Sauron. Secondary answers: Gollum vs Grima Wormtonge. Treebeard vs Balrog. Witch King vs Sauron, assuming Witch still has his powers but lost loyalty, and Sauron doesn't have the One Ring. Just for fun, what would happen if instead of becoming friends, Gimli and Legolas had fought? Personally, I think it's safe to say Gollum would eat Grima; Legolas would kick the daylights out of Gimli. The middle two secondary answers would be interesting to discuss, but the original topic of Smeagol versus the Mouth would be the most fun video for you to make and us to watch!

[@mattcashman6867]

Would you please do smaug vs Durin's Bane and or what if smaug got the one ring.

[@mods1133]

I really like this kind of storytelling. Love to see a Bombadil versus anyone episode

[@Lukey111]

Not much point it's hard to do a versus when we don't really know who he is. In my opinion he's the physical embodiment of the music of the ainur and I think ungoliont represents the discord of Melkor. But given this was true it basically makes him unbeatable to anyone in Middle earth or valinor

[@Reverend_Mojo]

Bombadil VS. Farmer Maggot.

[@khartog01]

As much as I didn't like the Hobbit movies, Beorn's Airstrike on the goblin Army was great.

[@zackcignetti7300]

Fun video! If we were to look at Middle Earth: Strategy Battle Game (favourite hobby), there would be no match as Beorn is by far the toughest warrior. The book-Shelob hurt by the valiant Sam is a greedy, fat and content version of the monster that she used to be, feeding on nasty orc meat for the longest time. I'd love to see a hungry and desperate Shelob defending her lair against the bears.

[@worldtraveler930]

I believe with Bjorn in Full Rage Form that would be Absolutely Not the Slightest Shadow of a chance for Shelob!!! 🤠👍

[@chucknorris202]

Beorn is represented as being basically invincible(to an entire army of Orcs at the battle of Five armies) on the field of Battle, during a fight, esp in his Bear form. The same might also be true for his human form. He kills Bolg, and all his bodyguards, and brings back the mortally wounded Thorin Oakenshield and the bodies of Fili and Kili(Thorins nephews who died trying to defend him); nothing is ever represented as being a threat to him, including the spiders of Mirkwood. I think he could tear apart Shelob when in his Bear form; remember its not just a normal bear it's monstrously huge and strong and has a great deal of resistance to incoming attacks. Extremely tough hide. Esp if he gets at Shelob from below he could start clawing and tearing away. Shelob could have a chance if she lands a hit from her poison stinger. If Beorn takes it seriously he won't get hit by that imo. But in a confined space like Shelobs lair... Beorn might even be trapped in his human form, which is still powerful, because being a bear he couldnt get inside the tunnel or through it.

[@chucknorris202]

@@MPD90 In shelobs lair sure I think Shelob might have the advantage too, Beorn might even not have enough space to transform to his bear mode. I think in any place with an open area, or any place where his bear form can act without running into walls constantly, Beorn prob wins.

[@sage798]

Beorn was captured by orcs. Shelob lived in Mordor and the orcs and Sauron wouldn't even think about bothering her. Beorn and shelob are not on the same level.

[@Huskytabby]

What-if video idea for you to do: What if Gandalf never fell at the Bridge of Khazad-dum and continued with the fellowship to Lothlorien and on forward?

[@TJDious]

Lol... Beorn waded through an army of goblins to their leader and crushed him. Shelob got her ass beat by a 4 foot tall gardener.

[@TheBrokenSword]

Gardeners can be tough 😂

[@sage798]

Beorn was captured by orcs. Shelob lived in Mordor and the orcs and Sauron wouldn't even think about bothering her.

[@Aaron-zk6jn]

@@sage798 Why would they bother her if she was serving their purpose?

[@Blong243]

1:23 I think you meant the original Minas tirith, aka. Isle of werewolves and not nargothrond.

[@Nagy.Patrik]

I just realized that Beorn is almost Björn. Definietly an inspiration from berserkers.

[@thefench1]

Both Names are Variants of the word for Boar...

[@pentegarn1]

I still say Beorn is one of the "Blue Wizards". We know the Blue Wizards went to Rhûn....which would be an easy walk for one of them to travel to Beorn's area. Beorn almost does more magick in the books than Gandalf....at least demonstrative magick. Radagast also ends up in same basic area of Middle Earth, and he's mainly worried about animals and living things.....just like Beorn. Maybe behind the scenes they were in some kind of cahoots? Also Gandalf and Beorn seem to recognize each other on some level? Beorn should have probably attacked Gandalf's band of dwarves as any other invader to his territory.....but instead helps them. Its almost like they acknowledge each other for what they are...Astari. Neither giving the other one away.

[@tardstomper]

Brilliant, I love this theory.

[@pentegarn1]

@@tardstomper I think I read those books for the first time in maybe 1985 or 1986? But the more I read the stories over and over (after I finished the Silmarillion for the first time) this theory just kind of became my working hypothesis to fill in the holes. I kinda thought maybe the second Blue Wizard might have been corrupted and became the Mouth of Sauron....but later decided that character just wasn't powerful like Beorn. I mean the movie kinda tried to make him look more powerful, but in the books he really isn't that spectacular. Just some guy.

[@QuantomX64]

Why is the jingle in your intro muted now? second time I've noticed

[@frednone]

When I first became aware of Beorn I said, "It was a battle of five armies, then Beorn showed up and it was six."

[@logancurtis570]

Treebeard VS Witch King.

[@darekotto3317]

If Beorn stays away from her stinger then it's a done deal. He seems powerful enough to tear her legs off so it'd probably be quick.

[@geraldineweiser1960]

Thank you for another interesting “What if” video. I have a “What if” request that I’m surprised if no one has asked before. I’ve often wondered what would have happened if Gandalf didn’t stop Bilbo … or wasn’t there to stop Bilbo… from taking the ring to Rivendale right after his 111th birthday. Sauron’s power was growing but he wasn’t as strong as when Frodo left the Shire. What if Bilbo took it to Rivendale and showed it to Elrond… or Elrond “felt” or discovered it… could there have been a different Council decision and possibly an easier journey to destroy the Ring in Mount Doom? What do you think?

[@Manco65]

To say he's less cunning than her? Don't forget he tracked down ambushed and killed every single orc that chased Thorn and Company down from the Misty Mountains.

[@rofald]

11:11 While fighting in a confined area might or might not be a disadvantage for Beorn, darkness would definitely not confer any handicap on him. Bears have a very keen sense of smell, so Beorn doesn't need to rely on his eyes when fighting in the dark.

[@rofald]

@@MPD90 My point was that Beorn's nose more than compensates for his inability to see well in the dark. A bear's primary sense is smell, not eyesight. For them the world is much more defined by scents than images.

[@danmcdivitt]

Great video guys you should do a middle earth death match series my suggestion is gimli Vs lurtz haha

[@NovaWasp]

Here's a scenario and a versus idea: What if Sauruman took Gandalfs place at the Rivendell council? He'd want to take the ring back to Isengard with the company and then imprison them rather than journey on through Rohan. But like Sauruman, if Gandalf could use his magic to force the company away from Isengard and into Moria, how would the white wizard hold up against the balrog?

[@PipInTheMiddle]

I don't know if it was a glitch or if you've been hit by a copyright but its not saying "build me an army..." at the opening of this video during the TBS logo

[@beverlykrebs4372]

I like this kind of thing too, but I love all of your videos. Thanks!!

[@TheBrokenSword]

Thank you too 😁

[@drewsimmons1629]

@@TheBrokenSword Sometimes the volume cuts out during the intro of your videos when Sauron says build me an army, I've seen this happen 2 or 3 times. Love your vids :)

[@beverlykrebs4372]

@@drewsimmons1629 That's odd. I've never noticed that.

[@Aaron-zk6jn]

@@drewsimmons1629 I think it's copyright or something.

[@Arwen-iw1eh]

Just a quick question - why is your intro muted? Don't tell me you've had another warning again!! Great video by the way.

[@panhandlersparadise1733]

Beorn was half-man, half-bear. Unlike Elrond and Elros, he didn't have to choose one or the other but was allowed to be both. That only leaves the question... Between the bear and the human, which was his mom and which was his dad?

[@shawnberry760]

What a great matchup! What about Legolas vs anyone?

[@lukeduba8864]

It seems to me the size of Shelob compared to Sam puts her at a much smaller size than Beorn. She doesn’t seem nearly as fast, strong or ferocious. I definitely don’t see Sam defeating beorn in the same fashion as he defeated Shelob.

[@demonpride1975]

i think even with sting, beorn would have destroyed sam, soooo yeah beorn would destroy shelob.

[@johngammon963]

Sam is well hard, he must be to have killed that monster.

[@Humts]

There is an Error with the Intro Music 0:28 to 0:38

[@TheBrokenSword]

🤦‍♂️ don’t know why it does that sometimes 🤦‍♂️

[@Humts]

@@TheBrokenSword Great Video nonetheless 😀

[@Jayjay-qe6um]

I think Beorn will tear Shelob apart, before her poison sting will take effects.

[@SkoopStudios]

Azog vs Aragorn would be a cool video

[@demonpride1975]

i think on a straight up fight at night time in a field with rocks and trees, would be the most neutral, that beorn would absolutely destroy shelob, i mean she lost to a hobbit, and even all those dwarves ran from beorn.

[@sampetrie340]

The location of its short stinger at the end of its abdomen makes it effective against pinned prey, but much less effective as an offensive weapon against a moving opponent. Can anyone seriously imagine Beorn being pinned by a non-magical creature of Shelob’s size? As for the webs, if a hobbit can (admittedly with difficulty) tear through Shelob’s webs, what would a Beornling do to them?

[@mareve2479]

Video idea: what if Faramir went to Rivendell instead of Boromir

[@mypeeps1965]

If Sam could have his way with Shelob then Beorn would decimate her.

[@reid_dreamcatcher6017]

Imagine Sam riding beorn to fight shelob ? 😂

[@boogieondown5824]

Spiders in general are ambush predators. Bears are brutal single minded hunters. Shelob would have to be on her home field to have any chance and use webbing to slow Beorn down, a lot. If her poison was not effective this is a non-fight, if it partially works then it's stick and move until you wear Beorn down. Beorn would be too smart to not see that strategy so he'd adapt. Out of 100 fights I think Shelob wins 5 or less. She'd need to get lucky or Beorn would have to make a big mistake or multiple ones.

[@Enigma..]

Thranduil vs Elrond or cave troll vs olog-hai could be interesting

[@Drimirin]

Elrond would thrash Thranduil.

[@worldtraveler930]

Elrond has a degree of Myar in his blood Thranduril does not!!! 🤠👍

[@Enigma..]

@@worldtraveler930 Oh shit yeah, I was just trying to think of 2 elf lords that are fairly on par

[@SwedishDeathLlama]

Shelob is a cowardly predator. It all comes down to whether Beorn can cut or break Shelob’s web (or avoid it). If he can, she will never even attack.

[@randomname1251]

Sam only wounded Shelob with Sting, a magic sword that was specially made to cut through creatures like Shelob. If he had used his own sword, he wouldn’t have hurt her. And Beorn is a skin changer, but doesn’t have magic claws or anything. So, I gotta go with Shelob on this, in either open field or the dark.

[@rogerlackman4712]

Are you sure Beorn doesn't have magic claws? Tolkien once said that's Beorn was "probably a bit of a magician".

[@hooktraining3966]

I don't think shelob is immune to damage that doesn't come from a magic sword. Few entities in middle earth are literally immune to damage.

[@Aquamentus11]

Shelob would probably lose out in the open....but she would never do that. If they ever met, it would have to be in Cirith Ungol because she wouldn't come out. I think Shelob would ambush and sting him and Beorn would die from her venom after ripping her apart.

[@elizabethanne8729]

0:52 I can’t stand this moment. We are supposed to believe that some dwarves could close a half open door agains a creature that towers over them. I know, I know, I’m being pedantic but it’s so annoying to watch. 🤣

[@mightymulatto3000]

Nazgul vs Oath Breakers please!

[@BrianEthridge-wg6ko]

I think that badass bear with a ripped her to pieces and then been with her body and arms like a dog with a bone snarl with anything got near his prize that he was eating

[@JP-st9hn]

If Sam can do it, well then….

[@LairdErnst]

What if Aragon/Boromir had taken the one ring?

[@sampetrie340]

A mammal will usually win against an arachnid due to its homeothermy and more efficient respiratory system giving it greater endurance and speed. Beorn seems more intelligent and calculating, more capable of analyzing and adapting tactics to any given situation. Using a hobbit as a measuring stick, Beorn appears noticeably larger. Both entities are able to kill orcs, but Shelob seems to do it one-on-one from ambush, while Beorn does it wholesale against multiple opponents in a berserker manner. Shelob MIGHT get in a lucky shot with its stinger (assuming it is even effective against such a large creature as Beorn), but my money is on the shape changer.

[@hanrockabrand95]

I would pay to watch this grudge match.

[@mattbryant4910]

smaug vs the 9 ring wraiths on fell beats

[@howardhavardramberg333]

Who would win between Beorn and the Watcher in the Water?

[@ianshaw1486]

Would you care to cite a source for Grimbeorn aiding in the hunt for Gollum and being aided by Aragorn? I know of no Tolkien text that tells this tale.

[@matthewoliveira3782]

funny, Im replaying Shadow of War right now

[@j-mc5201]

Yes home field advantage is key in this battle. The pas of Cirith Ungol strong advantage Shelob. Open field Strong advantage Beorn. Shelob would rely on the knockout punch in the first round in an open field.

[@Laulo89]

Great video as always. How about Elrond vs Elros next time?

[@lopirobinson1991]

If Bjorn could avoid her stinger then I think Bjorn would win. But if she jabs him like a "stuck pig" then she would obviously.

[@rhidley8314]

Beorn, for sure.

[@chrismaccool9097]

I Go For Beorn Anyday.

[@bildcj]

Tom Bombadil vs Sauron

[@arc7375]

Fëanor vs Sauron.

[@jprocha1570]

A versus video of Sauron vs Durin’s Bane. Being that they are both Maiar makes this matchup interesting.

[@zStC1]

Sauron wins. There you go saved you time and him some editing.

[@braveheart40kglasgow56]

@@zStC1 agreed, without too much trouble

[@Goatlikeitornot]

Sauron murders him

[@worldtraveler930]

Sauron and with the One Ring is an equal to Durin's Bane without it he is nothing more than a victim!!! 🤠👍

[@sampetrie340]

Gandalf scores a double kill against The Balrog. It is pretty clear, Maiar or not, that he would not achieve the same against Sauron. That suggests that no, the Balrog would not do well against Sauron.

[@bdcon2320]

What about Cocaine Bear vs SHELOB?

[@KingOfHarlots86]

😳 Shelob in human form? Aight hear me out though...

[@richewilson6394]

It all comes down to yeah the situation as well as Bjorn's claws able to do any damage to Shelob. He may be able to take out her eyes but if he can't make any kind of a significant dent in her body then there's no way he would be able to win.

[@KaosRunes]

Legolas vs Beleg

[@jasonbrown4653]

Shelob hands down. Remember Shelob wounded Melkor , nearly killed him and caused him pain for the rest of his existence. Skin changers wouldn't even get close...daft title for your video.

[@Harmergeddonsurf]

It was Ungoliant not shelob that attacked Melkor in the first age. But i agree as a spawn of ungoliant shelob is most likely part demon and would easily take down beorn.

[@swehumorofficial]

Well, one intimidated Gandalf and could have killed him as per the former's own wording. The other got wrecked by a chubby 4' gardener.

[@bretthoomana2541]

Who even thought this up?

[@judosailor610]

What’s with this thing I’ve been seeing lately of depicting shelob (and other spiders in middle earth) as humanoid females? AFAIK there is no president for that in any of Tolkien’s writings.

[@jeremyconnor414]

The skin-changer wins

[@lelouchzero14548]

Beorn in human form could take on Shelob by himself the man is 7 ft tall and strong as hell

[@Steve-bm3cq]

There's no guarantee that beorn's claws teeth or weapons could penetrate shelob's armour

[@shinestar2912]

Without the light of Eärendil there is no one hero who could defeat Shelob in her lair during the third age although I think Glorfindal could sacrifice himself again in killing Ungoliants kin.

[@xune2316]

Shelob would win, as an offspring of Ungoliant, Shelob prob has magical abilities/caster.

[@thomashillier8014]

Easy Shelob W

[@theflyingdutchman1301]

Generally like what if videos, but if you do atleast make it interesting. This may this or maybe that and perhaps such or perhaps so with no awnser what so ever in the end is very lame.

[@mothersuperior2014]

beorn is badarse

[@morgoth173]

Video 226

[@tanyakitchen68]

Defiantly legolas vrs a dragon

[@worldtraveler930]

An entire elven realm was destroyed by dragons not even Glorified was willing to go head to head with one Also remembering Smaug was fell by a descendant of the 1st men with an arrow that quite possibly could have been forged by the dark elf from the fallen meteor like his own sword and even then it had to pass through a missing scale to find the Dragon's dark heart!!! 🤠👍

[@finalone24]

LMAO Gimli is Elvish compared to Beorn, I'll go with that. I don't know too much about Beorn and his power but he turned the tides in the battle of 5 armies. I know Shelob is a spawn of Ungoliant which imo makes her basically a Maiar, same tier as Gandalf and Sauron, although she seemed to be bested by a mere hobbit she was actually just scared off by the light Samwise had. Honestly I think Sam would've definitely died had he not had the light, I still give him props for getting in a hit with Sting and I really hope he told that story to Bilbo. As for a Beorn Vs. Shelob battle though, I'm thinking Beorn would put up a good fight and may possibly even kill Shelob however Shelob's venom I think would eventually end Beorn even if he managed to kill her first.

[@finalone24]

Just found out Gimli was the only Dwarf to be offered a passage across the Sundering Seas with the Elves. So Gimli is already like the most Elvish Dwarf of all-time, not sure that's a compliment though.

[@ryanellis9325]

Who would win between a *FECKIN BEAR(!)* and a spider? Toughie, let me think...

[@br00talbr00skeez]

Gollum VS Bill

[@br00talbr00skeez]

I think that after Bill left bree and was healthy from leaving would definitely be the victor, if gollum Did not use the ring. Even invisible, I wonder if a hobbit creature of Gollum’s size has no way of choking a tough pony. Thats just my humble opinion though. A most epic battle indeed.

[@bluelit4830]

It’s clear at this point that you’ve run out of Tolkien material - really? Shelob vs Beorn?

[@Goatlikeitornot]

It's interesting tbh

[@charleskuss8428]

Rings of Power still sucks........