Bernard Lewis and Leon Wieseltier vs. Edward Said and Christopher Hitchens

"The MESA Debate: The Scholars, the Media, and the Middle East", on 22 November 1986, on the occasion of the Middle East Studies Association of North America's (MESA) twentieth anniversary.

[@user-ow8jl1wd4y]

I had the honor of meeting Prof Edward Said in 1997 while studying for my graduate degree at Columbia. I still treasure the 15-minute conversation I had with him. He was not just an intellectual superpower, but also an exceptional man. May he rest in peace.

[@ericchristen5275]

He’s not

[@dikferrari1396]

@@ericchristen5275please provide us with further explanation. We are all waiting.

[@voodoodisco]

@@tuvyag links?

[@prismpyre7653]

I'm haunted watching this. Said was right about everyting and the others knew it. They KNEW. What we are watching here is nothing less than not only gaslighting, but the intellectual laundering and academic and cultural gestation of a genocide. Nothing less. It is as if we are watching German scholars in 1933 debate the "Jewish question" but there's still that one and only Jew they have to grudingly allow to enter the hall, spoiling the narrative.

[@gorkasillero]

he was literally a fraud, a con artist

[@bobsaccamanno3970]

00:16 Bernard Lewis remarks (already in progress) 10:08 Edward Said opening remarks 21:00 Leon Wieseltier opening remarks 26:40 Video interruption / reading of remaining Wieseltier remarks from transcript 30:40 End of Wieseltier / beginning of Christopher Hitchens remarks (transcript) 36:12 Video resumes with Hitchens remarks in progress 41:40 Bernard Lewis 2nd round remarks 46:32 Edward Said 2nd round remarks 52:28 Leon Wieseltier 2nd round remarks 57:22 Christopher Hitchens 2nd round remarks 1:02:04 Audience questions read by moderator, William Hardy McNeill, a well known historian from the University of Chicago. 1:29:18 Final remark by Christopher Hitchens adding to his opening remarks.

[@rajo741]

Wieseltier beginning his second remarks with the premise , once again, that Jews are the ultimate victims. This time of Said’s perspective. He does honourably enough, try to demonstrate his understanding of some segments of the Jewish community as being dishonest. His fence straddling however must be painful.

[@bilalhijjawi8860]

RIP Edward Saeed, the voice of humanity has fallen on humanity's dead ears for we now know that power and corruption rule the day and justice walks.

[@Cyberdrill]

Did you just google "Edward Said liar" and paste the link here without understanding what is written in that article? Perhaps you would like to summarize for everyone here why Edward Said is "a liar and a fraud"? And whether the points raised in the articles are really relevant? It seems to me that much of the article is devoted to ad hominem attacks, and none really aimed at his arguments about media portrayal of the MIddle East.

[@MrBoywonder1985]

He was a fool. His ideas were wrongheaded and inescapably tendentious. Lewis torched his thesis completely in the New York Review of Books. Look it up.

[@Yousg27]

@@sapereaude3748 is that your response. Its easy to insult other, but hard to refute facts. 😂😂

[@thebig3864]

@@sapereaude3748 saeed is Christian so shut up

[@Zarghaam12]

Ed Said, we really miss you!

[@untitled7184]

Hummm, nope. he had a good tongue, but was talking bullshit. worst combination ever.

[@dikferrari1396]

@@untitled7184 how much are you getting paid for this junk or a message? I bet you have not read 1 sentence from any of his books.

[@untitled7184]

@@dikferrari1396 Why do I need this after watching this video? What I saw is enough to say, that what he said is nonsense, there is no need to waste my valuable time on nonsense. If I want to read fantasy, there are better fantasy books e.g, J.R.R. Tolkien.

[@rickstube5299]

​@@untitled7184and also read about the history of Israeli war crimes, which ya know, isn't fiction.

[@untitled7184]

@@rickstube5299 Israel is a good case that show that he as i said don't worth your and my time. He try to take all the blame away from the Arab side, the side that initiated the conflict in the first place and it is bizarre fiction, outrageous and dumb etc... as i said waste of time.

[@MattSingh1]

Hitchens' remarkable foresight shines again as he criticises vile war criminal and murderer Benjamin Netanyahu.

[@eemoogee160]

​@@majorkuntzin what way. He's doubling down. How does murder bring peace?

[@BUSeixas11]

@@eemoogee160 Ask that to Hamas.

[@eemoogee160]

@BUSeixas11 What makes you think Hamas wants peace? Think through this. Remember the patterns of the past. What is Israel's goal here? Netanyahu propped up Hamas in order to sabotage 2 state solution negotiations. He isn't acting on behalf of peace or the welfare of Israeli citizens.

[@winonafrog]

Absolutely-and this was a decade before he had Yitzhak Rabin assas***ted, even! Painfully prescient.

[@rickstube5299]

​@@BUSeixas11ah yes double standards

[@uyuyuy99]

THANK YOU SO MUCH! I always love me some "new" old Hitchens recordings. Especially debates. You're the man.

[@berkanaygun]

Thanks for uploading such a great video

[@AG-ni8jm]

Man I was always hoping this was recorded!

[@LionKing-ew9rm]

You were there?

[@xiaodongwang7753]

I am wishing this were real time

[@AG-ni8jm]

No, but I had heard of this debate and had only seen the transcripts

[@dodododatdatdat]

thanks for the upload.

[@anubis1405]

What a treasure! Thank you

[@michaelmarcus557]

BIG THANKS to Kyle the uploader. And a reminder about how much we simply don't and can't ever know about the future. William McNeill, moderating @ about 40 min. in, about this debate being recorded: "You will not see your faces on television..." but indeed, it exists "for the record." Also reminds me of how I (in my late 60s) marvel at taking my iPad to the gym and can view or hear or read just about anything. Who'dda thunk it in 1986?

[@jennyhirschowitz1999]

How prescient and eloquent an introduction…. Tnank you for posting. Miss Jenny

[@Sobheomid956]

Thanks you very much for this video.

[@wazulpoosh7187]

It’s so sad that its now 2024 and nothing has changed. Edward said is highly missed

[@darkenergy824]

thanks for uploading

[@phabib4577]

Forty continuous seconds of applause for Said--tenfold more wouldn't be enough...

[@MattSingh1]

*Said completely lost his way post-September 11th, 2001. It's great that Hitchens called him out on his water-carrying for Islamofascism post-September 11th. Ditto for Chomsky, Vidal, Finkelstein et al.*

[@phabib4577]

It's unfortunate that you see Said and others as deviating from their path post-9/11, and Hitchens as holding true. Rather, 9/11 was a clarifying moment where people (such as Hitchens) revealed their true colors. Hitchens was the one who either lost his path, or was never on it to begin with. And his eventually support of invading Iraq is evidence enough. Watch clips of Said's last interview before his death and you feel his loneliness, as he lost many friends and colleagues whose politics were either impacted or clarified by 9/11, not in a good way.

[@AC-mp7cx]

HELL no, edward said was a great man@@MattSingh1

[@Tabish29]

​@@phabib4577very eloquently written. Kudos.

[@CalebRox]

@@MattSingh1 He never lost his way -- he was always a duplicitous cowardly piece of shit.

[@majdolinzeidan4788]

Great speech!

[@firasagha1917]

Thank you Kyle.

[@colin7168]

Thank you for taking the trouble to read out transcript - if it was indeed you!

[@eleveneleven572]

...... War without End. Amen.

[@fernando-loula]

The debate on the lebanese war/Sabra and Shatila between Said and Leon seems to have been censored, that's a shame. Perhaps someone could add the reading from the transcript, like in the beggining of the video.

[@djmcnerney]

It is interesting that, in his introductory remarks, Bernard Lewis never mentions the scholar’s duty to... the TRUTH. He talks about his duty to everything else.

[@ajarnwordsmith628]

Would you like to borrow my hearing aid?

[@ManiacMayhem7256]

@@ajarnwordsmith628 Lmfao you owned him

[@donaldwhittaker7987]

Thank you. I appreciate Bernard Lewis and Edward Said. Somehow I think they are both right. Lewis does not say this, but might makes right. Said does say this, without reservation.

[@blueduck5589]

I haven't the slightest idea of what this Lewis guy said.

[@anaji1985]

30 years after we ended up with "Peterson and Zizek" the most stupid debate in history where your brain cell well die completely by it's end

[@FarhatKCh]

This made me laugh 😃 What is frustrating about Peterson is his slippery nature hidden behind fancy words.

[@YoussefMohamed-wo9mc]

Peterson vs Zizek was about who destroys who.unfortunately debates have become a sort of entertainment only aiming to satisfy the viewers by embarrassing the other side .BTW I love your work on Almanasa .Keep it up

[@bayleyasher]

truly, the fact that 'peterson v zizek' is the most our moment seems to be able to muster in the way of debate is an indicator that western 'intellectualism' is in dire straits

[@electrosyzygy]

@@bayleyasher perhaps in the English speaking world--I'm only bilingual but I can tell you that the quality of debates in the French world are far superior even in French MSM. Western Europe still has a strong debate culture, literary culture (popularity of literature, book fairs as a go to event, talk shows about books, etc.) and doesn't have the anti-intellectualism (or "cult of ignorance" as Asimov would put it) characteristic of the US. About the Peterson v Zizek debate I haven't watched it only because I've heard the former enough to know that he is a pandering grifter with strong rhetorical skills. His sweeping and often shallow statements irk me so I now avoid him. Zizek is entertaining

[@jediobi6268]

It was a meeting of two court jesters.

[@Gphilly819]

Edward said claims that western scholarship is biased against the Middle East because the west was imperialist and wanted to affirm its superiority But he fails to recognize that the orient also had imperialist empires such as the ottoman and Muslim empires that view itself as superior to the west

[@bobbyboygaming2157]

Leon Wieseltier was absolutely wrong in saying that Likud party was not widely supported.

[@illinoisenemabandit9209]

How old is this debate? Looks like something from 30 years ago.

[@ericwolfe2455]

Always a sharp knife ..... The hitch

[@walterpay341]

Those New Republic 80s dudes always had lovely hairdos

[@jj9homer]

The New York Times: "Several women... said they were humiliated when Mr. Wieseltier sloppily kissed them on the mouth, sometimes in front of other staff members. Others said he discussed his sex life, once describing the breasts of a former girlfriend in detail. Mr. Wieseltier made passes at female staffers, they said, and pressed them for details about their own sexual encounters. Mr. Wieseltier often commented on what women wore to the office, the former staff members said, telling them that their dresses were not tight enough. One woman said he left a note on her desk thanking her for the miniskirt she wore to the office that day. She said she never wore a skirt to the office again".[3] Another woman who was harassed by Wieseltier, Sarah Wildman, a former assistant editor of the magazine, has written that she was fired for complaining: "In disclosing this incident to my superiors, the outcome was, in many ways, far worse than the act itself. It’s not exactly that I was disbelieved; it’s that in the end, I was dismissed," she wrote in Vox.[15] Wildman further wrote that the sexual harassment went hand in hand with gender discrimination at the magazine during Peretz's and Wieseltier's tenure: "The women knew we had a far shallower chance of rising up the masthead than our male counterparts; all of us hoped we’d be the exception. To do so, we entered into a game in which the rules were rigged against us, sometimes pushing us well past our point of comfort in order to remain in play." (wiki)

[@bettedam1]

did somebody transcribe the speeches? Would love to have them.

[@issyo7023]

It's published in the Journal of Palestine Studies, Vol 16 (Winter 1987) on pages 85-104 (I'm studying the Middle East at uni)

[@dionysianapollomarx]

Debate is rare quality. Not something common today. That said, both sides are partially wrong.

[@esjay2322]

this needs more views. Free Palestine 🇵🇸 From the River to the Sea

[@mjw12345]

Thanks. I became aware of your upload as it was referenced in the Guardian yesterday 20 April in a review of a biography of Said by Timothy Brennan. Lewis was a nasty piece of furniture and a warmonger.

[@UnbeknownToHis]

Wow

[@mayamhsen9460]

Lewis could be easily cast in a rendition of Frankenstein as the monster and what he said here, unedited, could be fit for the movie's script.

[@patavinity1262]

Please explain how a discourse on Middle Eastern politics in the twentieth century would make a suitable script for a film version of 'Frankenstein'.

[@patavinity1262]

@@ibraheemmustafa3130 Which book? I very much doubt it indicates anything of the sort.

[@patavinity1262]

@@ibraheemmustafa3130 Yes, I have read it. What a ludicrous person you are.

[@user-qx3vc9fo6d]

مفيش ترجمه عربي

[@agluebottle]

Back when Hitchens was good.

[@paulgrieve7031]

Lewis destined to lose, though quite impressive once

[@pashute12]

Wizeltier: [26:08] ...that they were occupied in 1967... ??!

[@cliffgaither]

Pashute :: What a strange blunder. He must have been thinking of the '67 War. You were really paying attention !

[@Tabish29]

​@@cliffgaitheri caught it too

[@1982violinist]

Edward Said was the embodyment of a true honest intectual

[@MattSingh1]

*Until towards the end of his life, when he went completely soft on Islamofascism and totalitarianism.*

[@1982violinist]

@@MattSingh1 moan all you want ... morons of history always moaned in the face of genious much bigger than their tiny brain ... 😂

[@bebopkirby]

Apparently late in life Chris was given a offer he couldn’t refuse, found his true religion, and did a U turn.

[@sebastianjacobsen727]

No, he just have nuance and he wasnt a tribalist.

[@matheme]

Leon Wieseltier comments around 50 min mark have not aged well. Laughing not to cry.

[@heraclitusblacking1293]

Oof, yeah he mentions Likud and then asks where it is in "mainstream."

[@Rick-bi9fw]

@53:00 mins i seen the israel ambassador today on bbc news call Palestinians Nazis.

[@DurdenTylerr]

40:41 min.: "The videotaping of this session isn't done by the commercial media, so don't expect to see your face on television." Oh the irony...

[@AmericasComic]

"And certainly don't expect it to 30 years later to end up on some commercially owned, monopolistic video archive that is publicly available to 3 billion people across the world. That's just absurd science fiction." **audience laughs uproariously at the mere notion of the possibility**

[@MaazKhan-sv6lv]

Said ❤️

[@ahmedalhasan9226]

Leon wieseltier doesn’t belong on this panel

[@talalamjad9535]

Edward Said

[@2000antik]

lewis was destroyed after this debate and discredited

[@lotharlamurtra7924]

I don’t think so.

[@noorsamen6698]

Edward Said ❤️

[@hostashevsky]

What a despicable type this Edward Said: as a scholar and a man! All his talk was his grievances, whining and moaning and had nothing to do with scholarly knowledge.

[@Cmr_5vifail]

Said was the original scoundrel, he tried to destroy far better ideas with barbaric ,childish diatribes .He was the ideological parent to all the campus disgust that we are seeing

[@cyrus-shanghai2283]

Poor man… he passed away… RIP… but he also suffered all his life circumstances and he unconsciously takes part of shameful people such as Terrorists… I can feel his pain… he simply tries to overcome his own traumas… wish he rest in peace

[@HadzaTV]

Hitchens was the greatest

[@hhhhh176]

All of them have passed away. They went to God who knows if they were good people or just evil humans.

[@JaKommenterar]

Not all of them, Leon is still around lol

[@kp5602]

@@JaKommenterar Well he did admit to sexually harassing three women as ive heard

[@visualthinker9339]

This man is just ruining my world more than it was ever ruined! you can just leave us away! or if you really want to (what you call) "help" us, then we must be united Not as Arabs Not as kurds not as Turks Not as Berber Not as persians Not as afghans Not as uzbec BUT AS MUSLIMS!

[@eddiejamal1953]

Ahmed Abbasi I’m against this chauvinistic call, the globe is going individually, we must harness with humanity not with ideology!

[@coperfield9188]

Sunni or shia?

[@eddiejamal1953]

Coper Field irreligious

[@stiannobelisto573]

Forget religion, fix your poverty and let women have more freedom

[@mhsedeek]

@@stiannobelisto573 You mean loose, like your women ..

[@yousefmohammed1794]

Palstine🖤

[@theraventhatbroodsinthenig6777]

11 minutes in, and Said has already framed the conversation in such a way that it is impossible to obtain any objective truth. "Abstract knowledge is not possible" he says. Meaning, knowledge abstracted from its political and social implications. Sadly, if this is true, then there can be no such thing as truth, only opinion and power struggle. He says that the West depicts the middle East in a certain way, but does not seem to question whether or not such a depiction is accurate. It can't be accurate, since there is no such thing as truth and so there is nothing to be accurate about. The West only depicts the Middle East in the way that it does to justify its imperialistic policies. Is Islam anti-semitic? Or do we simply depict Muslims as having anti-semitic views to misalign them?

[@makeitseventoday]

11 minutes in? You mean 1 minute into Said's speech. Said has not said anything but the reality about the pursuit of knowledge....there is no such thing as black/white truth, no matter how badly you want it. Rather, there are attempts to arrive at truth/ or theories and these theories can be criticized, no matter how popular or convenient they become. That is exactly Said's point: the oriental field has been based on those thinkers and theories who have made the middle east a bogey man. These theories have been supported by the state/media/political parties, because it supports their policy or worldview about the orient. It is a symbiotic relationship. Just look at Bernard Lewis' relationship with top politicians from Israel to the USA. Do you feel it is appropriate for a leading academic to have such close ties to state power? At that point, shouldn't that so called intellectual be called a propagandist?

[@theraventhatbroodsinthenig6777]

@@makeitseventoday There is no such thing as black/white truth? Is that a black/white truth?

[@dodododatdatdat]

​@@theraventhatbroodsinthenig6777 10/10 response, jeez. Do you have any experience in the Humanities? we are not looking for thruth, but understanding. Which in turn becomes a sort of truth. If you want thruth, or laws of nature you'll have to look for it in math or physics.

[@theraventhatbroodsinthenig6777]

@@dodododatdatdat My degree is in STEM, but I am self taught in the Humanities. Truth is both possible and desirable in the Humanities, not just in STEM. I would imagine that most Historians would be wedded to finding out what events actually (truthfully) happened. You're partially correct, however. Only a daft person would dismiss Ovid has useless simply because the events in his Metamorphosis never truly happened.

[@dodododatdatdat]

@@theraventhatbroodsinthenig6777 As i thought. Central to my point is the Thomas theorem (or theorema?): "when people define things as real, they are real in their consequences." So there are multiple, infinite truths. Can we solve the question of god through science? I would say so. Einstein also thought so. Many scientist see the complexities of life as divine. Im atheist and my degrees are in sociology and nursing btw.

[@lashachakhunashvili1399]

R.I.P. Bernard.

[@yalmazalpha1]

Yes he is RIP but his "Scholarly" brought no peace for living in contemporary world, Good Riddance.

[@afreetify]

I think he rest in hell

[@majdolinzeidan4788]

He rested the minute Saeed ruined him that evening😇

[@strifelord5239]

Hitchens is a remarkable example of the wretched effects of senility and what it does to an intellect over time.

[@AP-qs2gx]

Bernard Lewis is right, Edward Said is partially right. The issue is if Said wants to put out his vision he needs to listen to Lewis, get his people out of religious scope onto science and enlightenment, otherwise he already has no chance against so called colonizers. Said has the talk, a talk to westerners so that they dont colonize his countries, Lewis has a talk , a talk to Middleeasterners so that they dont get colonized. Said needs to win in the battle of ideas in front of Westerners against Lewis therefore he smears Lewis. Bernard, thank you for everything. As a Turk, I will never forget your valuable opinions and immovable convinctions that come as a result of long experience and research. RIP

[@yalmazalpha1]

Idiot. Lewis whole argument is: It is not very "Scholarly" to argue that you have to do this, this & this so that I can't rob you & if you can't then hey I warned you it is not problem that I've robbed. Try this in any least functioning Legal Justice System and you will declared not only guilty but referred to Psychiatric help.

[@AP-qs2gx]

@@yalmazalpha1 you big idiot. Thats why you low race have been colonized. There is only power. Us Turks understand this. Unlike you we care about honor of our daugthers and wives. You pedo imams enjoy foreigners giving it to your wife. Thats why you have such a low country, where as we have an Eastern European sized economy and development.

[@afreetify]

I am for sure he rest in hell

[@afreetify]

Scope of religion?? Your religion is media and Lewis You think rest of the world care about it

[@adep1544]

@@AP-qs2gx I'll sleep well tonight knowing for certain that if there is a hell, you'll be in it when your miserable life comes to an end.

[@MattSingh1]

Back before Said went soft on Islamofascism, like Chomsky, Finkelstein, Vidal etc.

[@merlinx8703]

Back when Hitchens had a conscious

[@merlinx8703]

Back when Hitchens was not an Islamophobe

[@gongli1996]

Finkelstein soft?

[@MattSingh1]

@@merlinx8703 *Hitchens advocated fighting Islamofascism. Idiots like you carry water for Islamofascism.*

[@MattSingh1]

@@merlinx8703 *He had conscious enough to advocate fighting Islamofascism, instead of excuse-making for it, like you do.*

[@PlayNiceFolks]

Hitch tried to hold onto the idea that the Palestinians are worth fighting for, for a while. I tried. They've always made it difficult. Now they've made it impossible.

[@tmtb80]

Wow. Ethnic cleanse much? There are Palestinians all over. A 6yr old little boy here in America was just stabbed to death by a lilly white Christian American...so, your saying.....

[@cestbonbon5961]

The entire world is with the Palestinians, only ignorant idiots are still behind Israel.

[@longhairwhocares]

Pal if you’re giving up now, you were never on their side to begin with

[@johndunne7900]

Edward Said has turned out to be incorrect and most of his statements viewing the Middle East currently. The PLO turned into the Palestinian authority which revealed itself to be more in favor of terrorism than a democratically or constitutionally liberal government, it embraced sharia law and became a terrorist entity. The inability of the Palestinian authority which was set up in 1993 under the Oslo accords had little promises of succeeding although the participants had the ideal searching for a resolution to the conflict instead poured gasoline on it with a match prepared to be lit.And indeed it has been set on fire.

[@michaelcorner3861]

Completely agree. If Arafat was what Said believed he was, the State of Palestine would have come into being in 2001 as a result of Taba.

[@ghofraneoueslati7258]

What kind of braindead takeb is this ? The PA literally facilitates the f building of settlements and jail Palestinians attacked by settlers , they're literally so insanely corrupt, sell outs that would do anything for Israel