Bernardo Kastrup is an Apple Blossom: Are we conscious on day one? Meta-conscious? Argument & nuance

[@waymaking23]

This is a research conversation. I am thinking through these topics in my work and trying to understand how to clarify words that are used differently in philosophy and everyday life. This one centers on the term consciousness. I invite your thoughts and opinions about that any time. More below if you are interested. Thank you for being here. I'm going to post a Research Diary about it soon, but for now: The argument I am working on is that from the beginning, a life (in this case, a human life) is conscious--life is never not conscious. As this conscious life develops, this IS consciousness developing its own consciousness (another way to say it is that this is life developing its own life). One way consciousness develops is through awareness of itself as a subject. For me, this is the same consciousness that dissociates from itself even as it is ALWAYS whole and part of itself: the consciousness of this growing life is nested rather than dichotomous. This is what Bernardo and I discuss and the close relation of Ned Block's distinctions of phenomenal and access consciousness which are beautiful ways of distinguishing this (for me) so long as we do not say these are discontinuous forms of consciousness: they are nested within one another. We dissociate from part of our consciousness so as to become aware of it, or vice versa, and this can be either transformative, such that we return to our consciousness with better awareness of it (such as in a health experience of meditation) or it can be unhealthy, such that it is too much to handle or it is a result of being overwhelmed and we are not able to spiral back to where we started and know it better without some help...

[@spiralsun1]

@@waymaking23 Yes, I sometimes say that philosophy can be a trap sometimes, and no where is this more true than with consciousness because of its relationship with language and all meaning. To get beyond these to raw primordial consciousness and what that would be like is absolutely necessary IMHO. If you think logically about that alone, and use the way human minds and senses play off each other with memory and prediction or forecasting then some epistemological factors become clear: 1) all conscious processes collapse space and time to make meaning. 2) this can easily be seen by looking at the human act of reading as symbolic of this. There are many actual reasons to do so-and research supports that it’s the same as walking through the world in that regard. 3) the ultimate collapse of space and time means probabilistically that everything, infinity happens at once-since spacetime is the limit of probability. This makes Tononi’s theory very relevant even though it has the flaw of being a symbolic theory which itself does not have consciousness (the “integration” of the integrated information). So that’s big. Still, we can symbolically get empirical traction on the most relevant concept using his method. Anyway, my book “Eye of God: Language of Universal Mind” might be a big help for you. Especially if you ask me questions. It is only 100 pages and I assume a lot about things I have thought through for a very long time. Good luck with your research. The book is free if you have Kindle Unlimited-just please cite me if you do get anything valuable from it. All I do is think. I left graduate school after 4 years in a PhD program to write my first book and I am currently living in my car finding it difficult to get enough to eat sometimes. If you cite my book I will have a chance to eat better. I never panhandle (usually) 😂 maybe just for a citation 🤷‍♀️👍🏻 Thank you 🙏🏻 and good luck to you!!! ❤️ Also, I just realized I am parked in a park that is my favorite partly because of this quote engraved in the cement at the entry to the trails I like to run here: “We shall not cease from exploration and the end of all our exploring shall be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time” -T.S. Eliot

[@waymaking23]

@@spiralsun1 wow! thank you for this, still absorbing all this and will have a look at your work, this Eliot quote is one of my favorite of his poems ❤🙏

[@spiralsun1]

@@waymaking23 thank you for everything you do!! ❤️🙏🏻

[@philosophybabble]

I absolutely loved this conversation! I was really hoping you’d get the chance to speak with Bernardo, and here we are! It was beautifully unstructured and had such a natural, go-with-the-flow vibe. Seeing this genuine and lovely side of Bernardo was such a treat. Thank you so much for the mention-I truly appreciate it!

[@waymaking23]

@philosophybabble I mention you often in various talks or conversations because the discussions you arrange are so meaningful. I definitely recommend them to anyone who might be reading this (atm there is a new one with Levin and Metzinger that I am looking forward to listening to). Gratitude for your support and all you do.

[@philosophybabble]

@@waymaking23 Thank you so much for your thoughtful words-it truly means a lot. I deeply appreciate your support and sharing them with others. I hope you enjoy the new talk with Levin and Metzinger-it’s a special one. Grateful for you!🙏🥰

[@kkandthegirls6363]

Excellent discussion! Thoughtful and relevant questions. A good blend of casual and formal style (more casual, but not so as to be silly). The pace was fast enough to keep interest, but not so fast as to confuse. Thanks.

[@waymaking23]

Thank you for being here @kkandthegirls6363🥰

[@saxassaxas6916]

We’re so lucky to watch this man’s intellect unfold. Thank you BK

[@emergencymedicine]

This is a stellar conversation. No cryptic terms.

[@RevelLius]

i could actually understand it!

[@waymaking23]

really glad you are here @emergencymedicine thanks!

[@waymaking23]

@@RevelLius 🥰

[@PeterPenroseBach]

Andrea, thank you so much for your conversations. I am grateful for your ability to navigate subjects with personal openness, analytical precision and a joyful abundance of curiosity,❤.

[@followpathsnotpeople]

i was just about to write the same!

[@PeterPenroseBach]

@@followpathsnotpeople Great handle FPNP! Yes, she is following the path and not the person! Even if Bernardo is absolutely adorable!

[@waymaking23]

♡means so much to read this today @PeterPenroseBach thank you

[@waymaking23]

@@followpathsnotpeople ♡

[@PeterPenroseBach]

@@waymaking23 I am grateful for this too

[@jamesreeves9740]

One of the most listenable voices I’ve ever heard ( hers).

[@waymaking23]

♡♡♡

[@waymaking23]

If you are looking for the other, longer Nov 10th 'challenging' discussion it is here kzbin.info/www/bejne/h2G7enelnrykrNksi=3xH7iDblA_QROb-g

[@kellyalamanou5185]

Thanks for made this conversation happen. BK:"My life is not about me." Very true, our life is not about us. We are cosmic events. Our belief that we are separate entities is a misconception. There is only a universal unfolding of which we are part. There is no individual entity. It is all a single movement of the totality. Of the one single indivisible field of subjectivity. All happens by itself, including the idea of being a doer.

[@waymaking23]

Thank you for this beautiful statement, and for being here.

[@LindiRitsch]

Finally a female philosopher enters this amazing world! We thankful for it Andrea

[@TechnoscienceBTUChannel]

🙌

[@give_me_hope]

Thums up for the female philosopher. What new prechers of science as Bernardo deacribes them are doing was quite reasonable. I think thomas sowell wrote a great book on Intellectuals and society. I deals with this exact topic. Intellectuals speak out of their expert area to concentrate the power than knowledge

[@waymaking23]

Thank you for being here, and thank you very much for this recommendation of Thomas Sowell @give_me_hope

[@pjk55]

An outstanding interview. Did anyone else get the impression that Bernardo could have learned more from Andrea than vice-versa? The conversation could have taken an interesting turn at 29:37 if Andrea had cited Analytic Idealism rather than physicalism as an example of a belief system that people get defensive and angry about.

[@waymaking23]

That would have been interesting!

[@x-b5516]

I really enjoyed the conversation ❤

[@waymaking23]

Really glad you are here 🥰

[@Lucasvoz]

You did so wonderfully in this, Andrea! Pulling out sides of Bernardo I'd never seen before. Amazing conversation🫶

[@waymaking23]

@Lucasvoz you're the best!

[@VittBiancoeNero-hx1jy]

Every time you interrupted, it was thoughtful and it felt important for you. Very different style from other B. Kastrup’s interviews and, yes, it worked very well.

[@waymaking23]

@@VittBiancoeNero-hx1jy thank you for the encouraging spirit of this ♡

[@Lucasvoz]

Looking out for this one! Bernardo is great, and fun about the Dutch connection between you two:)

[@waymaking23]

Thanks @Lucasvoz ! Yes felt very cozy both sitting in the Netherlands. Trying to go ahead and cue up a bunch of videos (huge backlog) so I can take some time off YT to write😃✨

[@abhi0227]

Great discussion and always good to hear from Bernardo. You are one of the nicest interrupting podcasters 😊 Bernardo was his gracious self as always.

[@waymaking23]

Thank you for listening. Point taken to heart.

[@ArlindoPhilosophicalArtist]

I always get excited when I'm about to listen to Kastrup. I highly recommend this conversation to everyone. I hope to talk to him one day for my podcast which touches upon metaphysics and altered states of consciousness such as lucid dreaming. I am super interested and have a few questions. 👌🏻

[@waymaking23]

Thank you @ArlindoPhilosophicalArtist that also sounds like it would be a wonderful discussion ✨

[@mhill9600]

At conception, when life begins, consciousness takes on form.

[@greenthumb8266]

At the first “breath” the soul enters the body, as it is written in the bible.

[@greenthumb8266]

@@reivanen I don’t follow that religion, or any religion, simply using their words, as they are written in the biblical text.

[@reivanen]

@@greenthumb8266 i would argue that the soul enters the body at the first heartbeat. Because at that point only is the child like us living. Got any argument against this?

[@greenthumb8266]

@ it’s not viable to live independent from the host until many weeks later. In my experience, a quick, easily reversible procedure, done at birth to male babies would stop any unwanted pregnancy (even from rape, which we all know is about 90% perpetrated by males). I’m a pragmatist, the easiest and most encompassing solution should be used. That would be vasectomy, anything else is excessive and doesn’t bring even remotely close results.

[@greenthumb8266]

@ also even plants are “living” like us so I’m not sure what you meant by that. They have been scientifically shown to communicate and even self sacrifice to protect other plants/trees.

[@pocketfullofshellz]

Oh shit another one! Hell yeah, and ur voice is very relaxing lol

[@brentweissert6524]

i always enjoy hearing what Kastrup has to say. the interview would have been greatly improved had the questions been simply and succinctly worded. I often had difficulty understanding what was being asked, despite my backing up and listening a second time. I hope you will take my comments as constructive, and not mean or insulting. Andrea obviously has a passion for this subject, and I am glad that she brought us this interview.

[@waymaking23]

thank you @brentweissert6524 I appreciate your tone here and the point has been taken to heart! I really appreciate the way you express it and I can also understand that this would be frustrating if you came to this channel wanting an interview with Bernardo. This was research and i needed to push to some different places with it. I post research conversations on KZbin so as to document my own thought process as it develops and to openly show and respect the interaction of influences as I build the philosophy of Navigability. In any case, I am really glad you're here and thanks for listening. If you have any comments about the content of the conversation rather than the style, that would also be very helpful and welcome ♡ all warmest, Andrea

[@hannahgallagher2289]

I agree, it’s frustrating to listen when the host consistently talks over the guest and repeats thoughts over and over. I watch everything I can find from Bernardo Kastrup , the brilliant man he is but it was irritating to follow this host.

[@waymaking23]

@@hannahgallagher2289 hard to read this of course but thanks anyway. This is for texts I'm trying to work through so the motivation for doing it was (i guess) the very thing you found irritating...still, for me, this was the point of the discussion--to talk through ideas as they came unscripted...i share these conversations because i want the research to a public document of the process. i do take all comments to heart nonetheless.

[@piccadelly9360]

For me, first is consciousness and from consciousness comes life and not the other way around

[@waymaking23]

How do we distinguish between life and consciousness? Meta-consciousness is life’s awareness of itself. But what is consciousness?

[@teemukupiainen3684]

Looking forward, hope in English...;)

[@waymaking23]

Yes it’s in English🙌🏼☀️Trying to talk about this in Dutch would probably collapse me😅

[@springlilly9672]

🙏🏽

[@waymaking23]

❤️

[@KassJuanebe]

36:00 Bernardo says intelligence doesn't require consciousness. I like Joseph Chilton Pearce's definition of intelligence versus intellectual. Intellectual is making use of data to "solve problems." Intelligence always works from compassion. So intellect can design atomic bomb. Intelligence never would. Intelligence would consider the consequences and not participate.

[@waymaking23]

Another interesting and new reference for me @KassJuanebe 🙏

[@piccadelly9360]

What is the fear of dying? It is consciousness and that is life in itself The urge of living is consciousness , and that applies to every single living thing

[@waymaking23]

this feels very meditative to read, thank you

[@zetristan4525]

Is this coherent?? Could you fill in the gaps, so that it makes clear sense?

[@innerlight617]

2.03.18 BK:" i pay attention to my impersonal inner compass" Yes! i am familiar with that impersonal inner compass. i am following its guidance ,not by decision, but because it is just choiceless, because i can not, not to do it.

[@waymaking23]

‘impersonal inner compass’ is a phrase i like very much much

[@narcowake]

Good convo , my only criticism is that the host, though kind and sincere, interrupts Bernardo’s flow of thought very often . Bernardo to his credit is able to go with the flow.

[@waymaking23]

@narcowake thanks for listening, points taken to heart ♡. One thing that may not have been clear: this is a research conversation for my university work-- I had specific questions and ideas I wanted to raise. Having listened to many Bernardo interviews (with love) I wanted to push on some different points here and see what paths opened. That meant allowing my enthusiasm to be rather improvisational and trying to steer us away from the usual responses. Didn't always succeed but that was the attempt. Warmest, Andrea

[@ARJ-Richard-Arendsen]

Hier kijk ik ook naar uit en deze aflevering gaat je zeker veel views opleveren, waardoor je andere interessante gasten ook goed in de picture komen.

[@waymaking23]

♡oh ik hoop dat het iets voor iedereen oplevert♡

[@VitorSantos-ib5dn]

Another interesting conversation from Bernardo Kastrup, a very intelligent man, with an interesting life experience. Regarding what he said, what interests him is what is true, and not what is convenient, I also think so. However, what I'm interested in investigating is whether what gives us hope, what doesn't give us a pessimistic perspective, what doesn't just define us as postponed corpses that procreate (as Fernando Pessoa would probably say), is true. If it is not, I will accept that it is not the truth, but I am not interested in exploring negative, pessimistic views that lead to nihilism. He has the prejudice that, whoever thinks like this, doesn't mind defending something that isn't true just because it seems convenient. And often, that's not the case, or my case at least. When a scientist looks for something to cure the body, or alleviate the suffering of physical illness, he will not dwell on what he is discovering that does not cure, just because he wants to know the whole truth about everything. I'm interested in what is a cure for people's lack of meaning, which leads them to nihilism, suicide, psychological suffering. Being a postponed corpse has no way of giving my life meaning. Whether there is a cure for this is the most important thing to investigate, in my opinion. I'm interested in knowing the arguments for this and those against it. Concluding that the opposites are more likely, I will have to conclude that my life, and the lives of those I love most, have no meaning. That we really are and just postponed corpses. Assuming that there is no possible cure makes no sense to me. In this case, there will be no use in research in metaphysics. Better to dedicate ourselves to what is useful, in this case.

[@waymaking23]

Thank you for this @VitorSantos-ib5dn Fernando Pessoa has inspired me often over the years and what you write here reminds me of his poem 'If, After I Die' (or at least that is the English title I know it by). We do live for meaning, and love is essential (another Pessoa poem!)

[@zetristan4525]

Why the distractingsubtitles, when you're both speaking very clearly? eg 1:06:53 'The itching' 🙏

[@waymaking23]

Point taken 🙏

[@zetristan4525]

@@waymaking23 You and Bernardo have two of the most wonderful voices one ever has the privilege to listen to. To put words on it, I'd describe them in turn as "pureheartedness" and "delightful nasal resonance" :)

[@waymaking23]

@@zetristan4525 ❤️❤️❤️🙏

[@zetristan4525]

1:25:44 Ten euros are not conscious, a hundred euros are not conscious... but then you add one euro ;) and it becomes conscious!💶

[@mhill9600]

The newborn is aware (conscious) of being alive, but it knows no language therefore has no sense of its own self. It is consciousness without content…. until it gradually acquires language

[@ThermaL-ty7bw]

Consciousness is self-awareness, which is a descriptive of thought processes , which is a descriptive of brain functions - processes. To be aware of one self and discern the self from everything else , collection of data must happen, to have means through which this collecting will happen, means to process that information ,and time for those things to occur. Consciousness can't be fundamental, as is contingent on all those things . Idealism is essentially claiming that calculations are done , without a calculator . The argument being - because we can only ever know things through consciousness , everything must be consciousness . Or , to bring it back to the calculator analogy - only through calculations can we get to results , therefore , everything is calculations - only through A can we get B , therefore B is comprised of A .It just makes no sense , it just don't follow . Can't believe ppl are this gullible.

[@waymaking23]

Thinking it through philosophically doesn’t have to compete with the science does it? We can have both paths? Maybe what Bernardo is trying to do with the computer science side and simplifying AI would better speak to some of this, but we didn’t get into discussing that here yet. In any case, thanks for listening.

[@skemsen]

Very interesting interview but it stressed out my mind with Andrea's many interruptions of BK :/ I love her soothing and calm voice though ☺

[@waymaking23]

haha thank you (i think) sad to hear your mind was stressed by the enthusiasm of the questions though i felt i had to direct them towards the research themes, glad you are here and a happy new year to you

[@walterjoosten5750]

Sorry Andrea, but Bernardo is way ahead of you... But no worries, he's way ahead of most people, including me.

[@waymaking23]

@walterjoosten5750 I'm learning a lot from Bernardo

[@walterjoosten5750]

@@waymaking23 metoo...

[@MilošMamula-i7x]

Andrea, you look like a Leonardo da Vinci's painting.

[@waymaking23]

gosh, well, people say i look like the mona lisa sometimes, but maybe my long nose is more like a da vinci self portrait 🥹... thanks for listening

[@MilošMamula-i7x]

@@waymaking23 You are welcome and yes like him too and more like St Anne the Virgin and a child or like St John the Baptiste. Anyways, have a good day.

[@reivanen]

She is well educated but seems to be "thinking out loud" the part that should be internal before formulating the question. And speaking over Bernardo frequently when eager to chime in. Probably ADHD. And i'm amazed at Bernardo's ability to condense the longwinded statement down to something you can answer to on the fly, and do it correctly in most cases without pausing or asking for clarification.

[@waymaking23]

Hello @reivanen thank you for listening and for your comments. I guess you realize these messages come directly to me (Andrea)? I am indeed enthusiastic. One thing that may not have been clear (as I don’t think the intro is included here) is that this is a research conversation for my university work so I had very specific questions and ideas I wanted to raise relative to that. I have listened to many Bernardo interviews and as much as I love interviews with Bernardo, I wanted to push on some different points here and see what paths opened unscripted, and that meant allowing my enthusiasm to be rather improvisational and also trying to steer us away from the usual responses. I did not always succeed but that was the attempt. Warmest, Andrea

[@ThermaL-ty7bw]

apparently it Doesn't begin in some people composition division fallacy , well done ... , it's never going to be anything More Then a composition division fallacy , just because He wants it to be this is NOT how we do science , you NEED a precedent of something IN REALITY , BEFORE you can even USE IT to make predictions , which he ALSO HASN'T DONE btw ... you kind of NEED to make a prediction and GO AND CONFIRM IT , so OTHER PEOPLE can try and use it to make their OWN predictions , to see if it works ... HE HAS DONE NONE OF THAT , ABSOLUTELY NONE OF IT , so HOW are we supposed to actually take the guy serious ??? you're sitting on the toilet , with a paper in your hand , having the biggest poo of your life , yelling at your wife about a scientific theory that just popped in to your head , NOT SCIENCE !!!

[@adventurealchemy805]

One question for my dear friend Kastrup since he knows and sees from objective" point the geopolitical platform.Are we gonna blame Vladimir Vladimirovoc Putin and the rest of Slavic people for bombing other counties since the end of the WW2,like Syria,Libya,Iraq,Serbia,Sudan,Yemen,Palestine and around 30 more counties all over the world or he has someone else in mind,like his own country in particular?..His country belongs to military fascist org,called NA*O,and they have been killing people right and left for decades.They are thousands of miles from these same countries which they have been bombing and killing its civilians and that is somehow justified or it's not worth it mentioning 😂😂...but Putin is hitler 😂😂...in one interview he said there is genocide in Ukraine and the is "tragic" event in Israel ...one sided 🤡

[@waymaking23]

thanks for listening @adventurealchemy805 and for expressing your perspective

[@zetristan4525]

I love Bernardo, but he very clearly doesn't understand the dynamics behind geopolitics. It's very dangerous to buy any side's propaganda wholesale, to use it to become moralistic instead of moral + authentically understanding. And 'moral' can simply mean caring for the wellbeing of the experiencers on the ground (in all places).

[@adventurealchemy805]

@@zetristan4525 He is extremely intelligent when it comes to metaphysical idealism,but he is also very emotionally nature and that's why he will lose more than 90% of his followers,cause they will see how biased and uninformed he is ...i have all his books,and i congratulate him,but for the love of God,stay out of mater you do t get it ...

[@MS-od7je]

Tuesday

[@CGMaat]

Bernardo , why this 3 hours of back pain? This presentation is unlike you?? It was very hard to listen to whole thing , but we did to see where it would make your kind of sense as other did not conjugate in your weaving thoughts- yes. Independent liberal minded can’t really understand what is her wishy washing references to trump as you stand against putin - what stand does she take - almost like trying to make us forgive our own maga terrorist here in which we still have no justice to trials . I hate this interview. It is unlike you , but you are so so tolerant especially at the end - thanks to your back pain , you brought it to closure. Sorry i wasted3 hours….but worry four you??? No trump is not an enjoyable fake- what a so disturbing question “ she said “ would you vote for him?” That did it - did maga abduct her mind on the visit to the states????? Very confused my guru . Explain why this interview . At what point is tolerance stupid ?

[@waymaking23]

Not sure how to respond to this one. Thanks anyway for listening.