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BEST and WORST transmission for a DODGE CUMMINS

  Рет қаралды 136,700

V-BELT and SON

V-BELT and SON

Күн бұрын

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Пікірлер: 450
@erikkovacs3097
@erikkovacs3097 5 жыл бұрын
The problem is that the list of automatics from strongest to weakest stock is inverse from strongest to weakest once upgraded. So the 47/48re is the weakest stock but strongest upgraded.
@yarrik701
@yarrik701 4 жыл бұрын
Had an NV4500 in my old GMC, loved that transmission, very easy shifting, extremely reliable transmission. Got a 2018 Dodge with a G56, may not have the power of an equivalent automatic truck, but hauling or just driving around, manual is the way to go.... I'll probably have to figure out (or pay to have someone else figure it out) how to swap out whatever automatic transmission they're selling when I'm ready to buy my next truck with maybe a 6speed Eaton.
@Gthere-cs3ow
@Gthere-cs3ow 9 ай бұрын
I just picked up an 97 ford f800 crew cab flatbed with a 12v with only 60k miles. It's got a 6speed eaten fuller and I will say....yeah Eaton all the way.
@yarrik701
@yarrik701 9 ай бұрын
@@Gthere-cs3ow I've always wondered how the Eaton manuals shifted. I think the 6spd model is even synchronized and doesn't require an air line.
@philsalsbery9994
@philsalsbery9994 5 жыл бұрын
Nice video. I agree, I have a 2017 RAM 3500 Megacab 3500 SRW Limited with Ram Boxes, Cummins / Aisin. Best vehicle I have ever owned. It does everything well, from being my daily driver to hauling my 15K pound (loaded) 5th wheel, and that is with the highway friendly 3.42 gears. I get 18 mpg around town, and 24 mpg on highway, and average 12-14 mpg while towing. Can't beat it!
@brianswanson9881
@brianswanson9881 Жыл бұрын
In Canada I get 5.2 Litres per 100 kms. About 25 m.p.g. And the Power is amazing!
@jdljdl16
@jdljdl16 5 жыл бұрын
I have a 68 on a 2015 3500 srw and it tows great! I haul a full size backhoe with no issues in the mountains. Wish I had the 4:10 rear end but works just as good as my friends 3500 dually with an aisin. This is my first RAM and I love it.
@Cjrm3gtr
@Cjrm3gtr 5 жыл бұрын
jdljdl16 how many miles you got on it? Looking to see if upgrading to a dually is worth it or fix my 17 ram Cummins 4x4 with the 66 trans. I tow 5k pounds daily at least. Gave out at 72k miles but covered under warranty
@jdljdl16
@jdljdl16 5 жыл бұрын
Cjrm3gtr I have 45k on it now but only tow on the weekends, hope that helps. Sorry to hear the transmission went out on your RAM. My mechanic suggested to change the transmission oil every 50-60k to help prolong the life of them.
@Crazystuffyousee
@Crazystuffyousee 5 жыл бұрын
All valid and seemingly unbiased opinions based on experience. Well done...
@oldfarmer4700
@oldfarmer4700 5 жыл бұрын
I had a 2010 with g56 and it was a monster for towing heavyweights. I liked it lots and the only problem I saw and heard of was the flex from it being a aluminum case that produced a noise. Other than that I seen no problem and you could buy a girdle to help that out. I now have a 2002 3500 with a 5600 and see no problems with it at all myself. Not a daily it is for work and work only. If there isn't a dollar figure attached to its moving it stays in its stable. I myself like to row my own boat when it comes to trucks. Never have like autos in a work truck. But I'm old as hell and was brought up that way. This old dog don't do new tricks.
@davidbottles7298
@davidbottles7298 5 жыл бұрын
2003 NV5600 226,000 miles with the stock original clutch. 373 differential gearing. Love it. Tows great. Over fill the transmission by 1 quart, use the Mopar trans fluid and that transmission shifts and works great.
@VBELTandSON
@VBELTandSON 5 жыл бұрын
pretty much same thing as mine. 325k swapped trans because of hard shift but just hard to shift with dual disk ive found out
@christhornton2772
@christhornton2772 5 жыл бұрын
Same here, 2003 NV5600 150,000 miles and original clutch with 3.73. I have a 40ft Kearney and put 18-20k of hay on it weekly. 100-120 mile runs loaded for the last 40k miles. Pulls great, although I feel it on the really big hills, and has had no problems. Straight piped, AFE cold air intake and Edge CS2 Chip/Monitor.
@trolling4dollars816
@trolling4dollars816 5 жыл бұрын
I've got a baby truck: 95 Dakota, V6, ax15 5 speed, 290K mile stock. Most I towed was 6K cross country and it had no problems.
@Badassbowtie75
@Badassbowtie75 5 жыл бұрын
At one of my old jobs back in we had 4 trucks that had 40' gooseneck enclosed 20k trailers behind all 4 of them. The trailers lived behind these trucks and never were disconnected and were loaded with 10-15k DAILY and driven through western WA horrible traffic everyday. We had a 2016 Ram 3500 w/ 68RFE, 2017 Ram 4500 w/ Aisin, 2017 Ford F450 w/ 6R140, and 2017 Chevrolet 3500 w/ Allison. The company bought the 2017 Ram because the 2016 Ram was starting to have too many transmission issues like slipping, overheating, and really hard shifting when it was worked hard. After several visits to the Dealership and 1 very expensive tow bill they were looking at buying a 5th truck to replace the 2016 and use it as a backup truck after they put a new transmission in it which would replace a 95 Dodge 3500 5 speed 2wd (which was a DOG compared to our primary trucks, we always hated service days lol). The company always followed OEM maintenance intervals and always had all trucks serviced at their respective dealership. I typically drove the Chevy daily but occasionally would drive the other trucks, and the general consensus was that the Aisin, Allison, and Torqshift were superior to the 68RFE in terms of HEAVY ABUSE DAILY. Granted we did not baby these trucks but all were dealt shit sandwiches daily and equally. Just my .02 cents. Great video!
@jonathanjohnson7131
@jonathanjohnson7131 5 жыл бұрын
2015 Ram 3500 cab and chassis she is very sweet with the aisin transmission definitely not a drag racer like the 68rfe but when towing 30000 pounds it's pretty impressive
@scottryan492
@scottryan492 5 жыл бұрын
I keep hearing so much about how bad the 68rfe is but I have talked to more then a dozen people with them and they have not had any issues. Some deleted and some not. Some with high miles and some with low miles. Mine is a 2015 Ram 2500 with almost 200,000 miles deleted and tuned without any issues. My personal opinion is that regular maintenance makes all the difference with any truck and transmission. With every truck I have owned in the last 30 years, I have always short serviced everything on the truck. I don't go by the owners manual. Transmission gets new fluid and filters every 30-40,000 miles. Never lost a transmission in my life and I put between 350-400,000 miles on all of my trucks before I consider selling them. This truck will be staying much longer and I will be adding another truck but I will be ordering it with the g56 only because I miss driving the manual. Great video Sam!
@bigbossman5969
@bigbossman5969 5 жыл бұрын
u exactly right if people did proper maintenance on there vehicles according to how they use them if i do alot of towing and hauling change your fluid more regular and u won't have any problems. and another important thing make shure u use the correct type of fluid. and install a auxiliary transmission cooler heat is a transmissions worse enemy
@tylerboyle1652
@tylerboyle1652 5 жыл бұрын
My first ram/ current truck is a 15 ram 3500 mega srw with the aisin, with all the deletes and man let me tell you what that thing is a beast and handles all the power and tow ability
@ShaneBurrell1
@ShaneBurrell1 5 жыл бұрын
Moving from the 2500 68RFE to the 3500 Dually Aisin for routine (tow mirrors out) 14K towing (Dump and 5th wheel RV) has been night and day for me. The 2500 wandered a lot on the interstate with both hands solid on wheel leaning up waiting for the next correction. The 3500 rock solid one hand driving with the aforementioned taco and soda. The 68RFE wanted to get hot really quick in the mountains and I had to be really careful (don't goto park, pull over and stay in neutral). I added a finned extra capacity transmission pan which helped the 68rfe. The aisin on the new 3500 on the same trip with same load, kept cool no matter how you treated it. I don't really use it but the aisin equipped truck is normally HO Cummins as another reason to go with aisin for a bit more power. Only big loads i've moved with it was a 23K trailer loaded to the full 23K was a directional drill. Pulled it with easy, stopped with ease and aisin kept its cool even pulling steep driveways with it.
@josefrobbins8781
@josefrobbins8781 5 жыл бұрын
Love the Showcase man! Thanks for putting in the time in explaining the main differences in all of Dodge and Ram's Transmissions. Especially since you have real world experience to back up what you're saying. I personally am a standard elitist myself, and you might have caught some flack from others for buying the auto...but here's my two cents. Working at Ram dealerships I've gotten the chance to know those transmissions inside and out, and I must say Mopar/Ram have made the right choice. Also those still complaining about your 4th Gen purchase need to realize over half the trucks you've owned were standard transmissions! Heck you own and drive a 3rd Gen 5500 with a G56 which is an exceptional rare setup but gets used for real work. On top of that your 5500 is the last generation when Dodge trucks was still "Dodge"...in other words you've earned your stripes, and your right to own and drive an automatic pickup. Who cares what people say or think. Also I've never understood why the Ford guys dog on Dodges old transmissions. It was the old automatics that sucked, not the NV, Getrag, or Bulldog series. If Ford boys want to pull that card, I can name plenty of their autos that had their fair share of problems. Since you mentioned regretting not getting a 5500 in a 4th Gen. The 5th Gen Heavy duties are shaping up to be something great for 2020! You need hop on that 5500 5th Gen train when they're released. Thanks for the read, keep up awesome work you're doing for your videos. P.S. - When you gonna get that 1st Gen for your Fleet to complete the collection?
@VBELTandSON
@VBELTandSON 5 жыл бұрын
thank you for the comment! and yes the 2020 5500 is what im looking forward to. hearing some good things about it. hope I can get some videos with one when the come out. and stick shifts are great and fun but a six speed manual isn't in the same ball park and 6 speed auto. and regarding first gen I look everyday.. nothing in my area that is a real catch as of yet but someday I may get lucky and find you. thanks again! take care
@jaydengerber15
@jaydengerber15 5 жыл бұрын
Totally agree. I have had a 2016 2500 with the 68, I honestly liked it quite a bit. But then I seen a 3500 srw with the ram boxes and I traveled 8 hours to get it lol. Oh and the aisin trans. By far the best purchase I've made!
@VBELTandSON
@VBELTandSON 5 жыл бұрын
its a good feeling getting something you are very happy with! thanks for watching and congrats on the truck!
@andrewslagle1974
@andrewslagle1974 5 жыл бұрын
i have a new 2018 3500, reg cab, dually, 410 ratio, 4x4, 6.7,. 68rfe. pulls like a mule, no regrets. best truck i have owned to date. i haul my excavation equipment with it every day..
@mannypuerta5086
@mannypuerta5086 5 жыл бұрын
NV5600; Southbend, single disc, 1000# torque clutch; FAST coolers and filled to 1 quart over with Valvoline MTF. Don’t force the shift and it works great.
@tyrrellroach5872
@tyrrellroach5872 5 жыл бұрын
I have had 5 ram trucks in the last 15 years and none of them were babied and all had over 100k when I got ride of them 3 with the 48re one with the 68re And one with the nv5600. The nv5600 was far and away my favorite transmission I know ram got away form using them to save wieght but they were bullet proof and fun
@cdalton3169
@cdalton3169 3 жыл бұрын
Great video and great content! I have a 13, 2500, crew cab Laramie. 600HP+. Daily driver and used to tow a fifth wheel and tandem axle equipment trailer. 250,000 miles and not one time have we had a transmission problem. 68RFE, stock. Rolls up 6, 7 percent grades towing the big fifth wheel in 5th at 65 MPH with no issues. Been doing this for years. All these whiners crying about how bad Ram/Dodge transmissions are. Not true. I also have a 2001, 5.9 service body. No issues with that one either. Almost 300,000 miles on it also. Here’s the key to transmission longevity. Follow the manufacturer’s schedule and service it! Spend the money! The cost is decimal dust compared to the cost paid for the truck and it will last an amazingly long time. I personally use Amsoil transmission fluid and I change the transmission filter while I’m in there. Quick and easy. And don’t try to outrun with jackrabbit starts from a stoplight pulling 16,000 pounds. No transmission will last very long doing that. The highest I’ve ever seen my trans temp is pulling up a 7 percent grade at 65 MPH was 178 degrees and the outside temp was 90 degrees. Amazingly. Normal operating while pulling down the average highway is 168 to 170. And, BTW, my diffs are high at a stock 3.54. Nothing wrong with pouring the fuel to the truck on the open highway but take your time walking off with a load. Transmission will last forever. Remember, the Cummins engine has so much low end torque that it can tear the driveline right out from behind the engine doing jackrabbit things with a heavy load. Wonderful trucks, best engine out there, strong stock transmission if maintained.
@gearheadjay3616
@gearheadjay3616 5 жыл бұрын
My favorite is still the old manual. My truck is 2017 2500 g56 tradesman. I like basic. Vinyl floors, vinyl seats, a manual shift transfer case, and a manual transmission.
@VBELTandSON
@VBELTandSON 5 жыл бұрын
cant argue with that I wouldn't mind rocking a truck like yours
@gearheadjay3616
@gearheadjay3616 5 жыл бұрын
Thanks. I love my truck. Plan on running it for a very long time.
@freightshakernation9429
@freightshakernation9429 5 жыл бұрын
I have an 08 dodge 2500 quad cab with the 6.7 and the 68 in it and it's got 140,000 on it and it runs like a champ
@freightshakernation9429
@freightshakernation9429 5 жыл бұрын
@Trapping Fit I just use it as my daily and i tow about 10,000 with it. The truck is deleted and efi live tuned. I haven't had any problems with it yet. I wasn't exactly sure on what all I needed to upgrade on the trans to make it last longer?
@scottherman5311
@scottherman5311 5 жыл бұрын
I agree I just bought a 2018 3500 dually with the aisin. What a beast. I don’t even know I have my 16,000 pound 5th wheel behind me
@drummerdoingstuff5020
@drummerdoingstuff5020 3 жыл бұрын
Mine (17) just got upgraded head studs along with EGR delete so it got a little tune in and was already a beast! My Aisin is kinda jerky tho and I know they are “sluggish” by nature but seems like it jerks or ju,so around a little too much for my liking. I just found out they are supposed to be serviced every 30k miles so I bet it’s due. It’s my work truck so I don’t actually own it but it stays with me 24/7 and I get to use it when I need it or if I ever get a chance lol
@wesscarey4475
@wesscarey4475 3 жыл бұрын
I have a 93 Dodge Diesel D350 extra cab 4+4 dually. The 727 auto has 2.50 first gear. Cant move much from a dead stop. Slight power bump and NV4500 will get it moving. Aisin auto has 3.45 first gear. BIG difference. And that exhaust brake is KING as well. MUCH better engineering on newer trucks! And Sam, you ROCK!!!!!!!!!!!
@levihemphill3793
@levihemphill3793 5 жыл бұрын
Couldn’t agree more man, I love the Aisin in my 2014 it’s a beast !
@rsdna9698
@rsdna9698 4 жыл бұрын
It's even more of a beast after you get it tuned and get rid of torque management crap, first when towing feels like a true lock up granny gear. :)
@mtollmaster3747
@mtollmaster3747 5 жыл бұрын
I’ve had most of them as well. They all have their idiosyncrasies. I bought a 2015 3500 SRW with the Aisin a few months ago. Flew to Bend from Phoenix to buy it and drive it home. Honestly I was a little shocked at the poor off the line power. I can’t delete in Maricopa county but will when I move to Yavapai county. For now I bought a Pedal Commander from Amazon. I was skeptical as hell but it had great reviews. I have to say, it made a HUGE difference. Feels like a totally different truck. I towed my buddies Kubota MX6060 on a PJ 14k deck over and it was an absolute joke. Made all my other Dodges feel like a Tacoma. I absolutely love this truck and I bought it used. I run a welding skid in it daily that weighs roughly 2k. Again a total joke for this truck. Couldn’t be happier. Try the pedal commander if you can’t delete by law in your area. Just my two cents. Love your videos!
@sugargoldy
@sugargoldy 5 жыл бұрын
Another great video I have a 2006 Dodge Ram single wheel one ton with 53,000 original miles on it yes it's an automatic truck yes I know Dodge transmissions are weak but there's one thing people don't understand with those 47 and 48 you don't let them sit in park and idle because the pump doesn't pump fluids so they get hot you have to adjust the bands in them and keep the transmission fluid and filter changed and you'll get a lot more life out of them. Keep the videos coming I enjoy them. Oh and another thing this kind of goes against what I just said up above but my brother-in-law has a 2004 Hemi truck automatic has 355 thousand miles on it the transmission fluid and filter has never been changed or adjusted so I guess Dodge doesn't make too bad of a transmission.
@dpod612
@dpod612 5 жыл бұрын
I have been hotshoting for 7yrs and have owned and still one a 06 dually with the G56 300,000 miles with no issues, great tranny! 08 2500 with the 68 298,000 miles no issues except turbo... And now also have a 18 5500 with aisin and 4:10’s is a beast! Like your vids👍🏼🇺🇸
@nellyfarnsworth7381
@nellyfarnsworth7381 4 жыл бұрын
The CORRECT answer is the AISIN TRANSMISSION ( 31,000 lbs. Trailer towing). The new 2019 AISIN transmission (35,000 lbs. Trailer towing). The AISIN is a Medium Duty (class 5 & class 6) with Two PTO outputs & built by Toyota.
@kane6106
@kane6106 4 жыл бұрын
Thats what I have. Some funky shifts at low speed unloaded, but under weight its never going to die.
@yerwrng
@yerwrng 4 жыл бұрын
I don't think that Aisin is actually "Toyota " anymore than AAM axle would be GM .
@nellyfarnsworth7381
@nellyfarnsworth7381 4 жыл бұрын
@@yerwrng TOYOTA is the owner NOT a contractor
@bags4930
@bags4930 5 жыл бұрын
I just went into a new 3500 Aisin from a 2500 G56. ZERO complaints. In fact I love it. I also still have an '01 NV 6 spd. Nice looking Aussie. We have 3. Two red merles and a blue. Great dogs.
@VBELTandSON
@VBELTandSON 5 жыл бұрын
solid combo you are running both with trucks and pups!
@brandoncooper7432
@brandoncooper7432 4 жыл бұрын
The MV5600 is a cast iron transmission. That's why it's such a beast. My brother has a 96 1 ton dually with a work bed and the MV5600. We were going to to Florida in 2015 and the bearing on the main shaft froze up. He played hell trying to get another one for the right price so he just got the bearing and rebuilt it himself. He's been trying to sell it but no luck. He's got a 2017 1 ton dually now and loves it! He loves not having to shift anymore lol and with some of the loads he hauls he said it pulls it so much easier than the 96
@brisonpalmer6730
@brisonpalmer6730 5 жыл бұрын
I just purchased a new 5th wheel and will be towing it with my 14 2500 of course with the 68. If it doesn't tow like I want I will trade up to a SRW 3500 with the Aisin. No dually for me because I like to use my truck off-road and the duallys are too wide and get shit caught in between the rear tires. My optimal truck would be a Ram4500/5500 flatbed with super single conversion and a tune on the Cummins with the Aisin.
@brisonpalmer6730
@brisonpalmer6730 5 жыл бұрын
Yes, rocks and mud can get caught between the rear dual tires and basically clog up your rear drive and rocks can potentially damage the rear tires.
@brisonpalmer6730
@brisonpalmer6730 5 жыл бұрын
Yes but you don't have the gap in between the rear duals to get rocks and mud lodged into while you are off-roading. Have you ever off-roaded in a truck with dual tires? They rears clog up fast and rocks like to lodge in between the duals and tear up the tires.
@DirectCurrent4u
@DirectCurrent4u 5 жыл бұрын
If you have rocks stuck between your tires your not going fast enough!!! @@OctoMojo
@SLICKW1993
@SLICKW1993 5 жыл бұрын
16 RAM 3500 DRW with the 68, never driven the AISIN. I tow a 42 ft toy hauler with zero problems, tows like a beast. I’d like to see the difference towing with the AISIN.
@wallyyuriy8912
@wallyyuriy8912 9 ай бұрын
Just bought a 2023 dually Ho/Aison. 4:10’s Laramie. Only 3000km on it. So can’t say it’s any good yet. But I like how it shifts, both towing and grocery getting
@Denis-tu1pd
@Denis-tu1pd Жыл бұрын
I have a 2021 3500 single rear wheel. It has a 370 horse 🐎 a68rfe and a 9400 dollar upgrade. 1 tow 18000 lb dump trailer when loaded .to get an aisin you have to get the high output 12000 dollar upgrade. When my transmission goes out there's a transmission shop in Santa Rosa CA that can build my transmission alot stronger than the aisin . I pulled a 39 foot fifth wheel rv and weight 16000 lbs with my 03 3500 automatic 47re .I blow it up at 74000 miles my transmission guy built it up and when I sold my 03 it had 220000 miles on the 5.9 had a programmer and 5 inch exhaust after cat and a 33 percent over cp3 fuel ⛽️ pump . It had stock size injectors. It put my torque through the roof. My turbo had a manual waste gate I replaced the little elbow with a elbow and got 36 psi out of my stock turbo . The elbow had a set screw in it to adjust the amount of boost. The truck could spin the dual rear wheel in 1st second and drive gears never tried overdrive because the rear end was fish tailing . I miss my first generation dodge 🐏 ram .I would pull a 12000 lbs fifth wheel rv . It was a little slow in the hills but it got the job done. Even went to boom town in this truck . My 2021 what I like about it is the exhaust brake. My 1989 had the 5 speed getrag with a np205 gear to gear transfer case. Last year you could get posi in the front axles with 354 gear. The front axle 4500 lb Dana 60 with military selectro hubs rear axle was a 6084 lb Dana 70 position rear end t.the truck was a wd250. When are we going to see your awesome video on your new 40k trailer ? Keep up the awesome videos. Denis from Santa Rosa CA
@raychilcote5558
@raychilcote5558 Жыл бұрын
3 years later, the list still holds. I only have one truck, lol. 07 5.9 48RE. 4 gears are awfully wide for towing the camper. Contemplating a swap to a G56, as I do prefer a manual. Rather keep the truck than sell/buy.
@VBELTandSON
@VBELTandSON Жыл бұрын
G56 for the win!
@snowmanwithahat
@snowmanwithahat 4 жыл бұрын
Cummins w/ a 68RFE owner... I've been fairly disappointed in the transmission compared to the '06 Duramax and Allison combination I've driven before this. Even in tow-haul mode it wants to hang out in too high of a gear, causing downshifting on any incline or throttle application. Makes it feel like it's just a gas truck with an economy tune.
@johnmayfield4614
@johnmayfield4614 5 жыл бұрын
I love my g56 08 in a 2500 working it then I was working and driving for a company that had an 08 5500 with the g56 both wonderful
@anthonycollucci9076
@anthonycollucci9076 4 жыл бұрын
2002 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 Cummins, billet 47re w/ sun coast billet triple disc, Dana 60 4:10 gears. Been a great truck. Giving to my son and going to buy a 2017 2500 Cummins tomorrow. Has a 68RFE. Hopefully it holds up. Welding rig. Heavy Trailer occasionally. Great information. Thank you for sharing your experiences.
@DavidSmith-vo3nd
@DavidSmith-vo3nd 5 жыл бұрын
Hi Sam, Great subject to cover. Thank you for the video !! lol!! In "my day" the old 929 transmission was a great transmission... ;-)
@georgev3997
@georgev3997 4 жыл бұрын
I'm coming out of a 2017 3500 crew with the Aisin. I pull a 16,000 5th wheel. I have had no issues as far as power. I'm just close on the rear axle weight (60lbs). I'm looking at a 3500 with out the HO and Aisin. It seems thats what the dealers are stocking near me. It can pull more and has way more rear axle weight. In your opinion will I feel a big difference. Its a big move and I really don't want to be disappointed. Thanks
@Bohica-tq3ps
@Bohica-tq3ps 5 жыл бұрын
We bought a 2010 drw, crew cab w. 8 foot bed, 4x4, automatic, 3:73 gears, new to pull a 36 foot fifthwheel with. The truck/trailer scale 23,200# with the truck scaling 8800 (aux fuel tank, large aluminum rv toolbox with jacks, tools, etc.) full of fuel. Truck now has about 65,000 miles, and basically just pulls the trailer a couple of times a year and is used as transportation when we are parked in a campground. I had the trans fluid and filters changed about 55,000 miles and we did a total delete about 2 years ago and added 40 horse by flashing the computer, added a S&B cold air snorkel and wet filter. The truck runs great, mileage sucks though, anywhere from 7 to 10 towing, 16 or 17 running empty. We go to the Rockies every year and pull some serious passes. Already had to replace both ujoints on the back half of the rear driveshaft, so I'm thinking about going with a one piece aluminum heavy duty drive shaft. My biggest fear is the transmission taking a puke in the middle of nowhere. I wish I knew just how tough these transmission are, I'm an old guy and plan on this being my last heavy truck. I've even thought about changing the transmission out with an ATS bullet proof trans and selling the stock trans. What would you guys do?
@diyoregonnowtexas9202
@diyoregonnowtexas9202 2 жыл бұрын
whats a drw?
@Bohica-tq3ps
@Bohica-tq3ps 2 жыл бұрын
@@diyoregonnowtexas9202 Dual Rear Wheel.
@zxej6879
@zxej6879 3 жыл бұрын
All the transmissions work okay when driven nicely. My daughter and son-in-law have a 2018 Ram 3500 Megacab 4wd 3.42 ratio with the Aisen. They towed a 13,000# 5th around North America for 14 months after buying it. My wife has a 2018 Ram 2500 Crewcab 4wd 3.42 ratio with the 68RFE. My wife says this is her last truck. She retired from being a teacher at the end of the school year. We have a 27' travel trailer that is too big for some of the campgrounds my wife would like to stay at. We are looking at 22' higher ground clearance trailers. I drive at least 40k miles a year. And switch off between a 2016 Ram 1500 Quadcab 4wd 3.92 ratio Ecodiesel. And a 2020 Dodge Durango GT AWD. Which both have the ZF-8sp transmission. I have viewed a couple of KZbin videos that demonstrate the Powerline series ZF-8sp in a Ram 3500 dually pickup. I believe that would be the ultimate setup. The G56 does let the VGT engine work at a lower speed than any of the current automatics. But the ratio's of the 8-sp would work well with the 3.42 ratio. I would still prefer a 4.10 or 4.56 ratio for 35" or 37" floatation tires.
@andrewj228
@andrewj228 5 жыл бұрын
Got an 01 with the NV5600. it's a bit rough compared to the G56 but I love it. Like you said, it served it's purpose. Thanks for your video and input for all these transmissions. looking to upgrade to a G56 soon. love your channel. keep it up!
@craigjohnson2771
@craigjohnson2771 3 жыл бұрын
I have the same truck, try adding motorkote to the oil it really improved mine and with 257,000 it’s smooth now.
@Catsonwheelz
@Catsonwheelz Жыл бұрын
High gear in Memphis Tennessee makes the best g56 transmission aison is nothing when you upgrade to high gear
@holybuba
@holybuba 5 жыл бұрын
Every thing you said I am right there with you. I miss my g56 trucks but I wouldn't trade my Aisin Mega cab to have it back. .man the manual is so much more fun but at the end of the day the Aisin just does everything better in Stock form.
@findyourkalm1559
@findyourkalm1559 5 жыл бұрын
2018 Ram 3500 Laramie. Cummins, Aisin, max tow package, 30k fifth wheel hitch.... Towing a Riverstone Legacy 38FB2. Good info definitely listen to a man with 10 plus Ram trucks. Thanks
@kidglove100
@kidglove100 4 жыл бұрын
Take the air in the tires down to 45 pounds all four tires like the inside of your driver door says and it will ride like a cadillac. Pump the air up when towing only
@Nonsensenoalph
@Nonsensenoalph 5 ай бұрын
Just found you guys. I'm one that believes in first hand information and I can see with all those dodge trucks I'm seeing you have an idea of what you are talking about. I'll Be looking in on you. Thanks
@sargenthp
@sargenthp 5 жыл бұрын
I had the 68RFE in my '07 and '15 2500 SRW's. I just tow a camper so I am not towing heavy all the time. But I will tell you that I liked towing with my '07 better for MPG's and power. The body of the 4th gen is nicer for dealing with the load, but I hated the 3.42 gears. It was almost like driving a gaser on how it would slow down and had to downshift on the hills. My '07 I would give a little baby toe pressure and it would just crawl up the hill and even gain speed. But my '07 was a Megacab had 3.73's, stock 31" tires, and a small tow tune. My '15 was stock Crewcab with 3.42's and 33" tires. So not only did they drop the gear ratio significantly they also increased the tire size. I believe for a daily driver 3.55 would have been better with the '15, but I would still prefer 3.73's. I determined that I needed a 1-ton, but at this point I still wanted SRW. I hated those 3.42 so much that I ended up choosing the Chevy L5P over the Ram.
@brentmcmahon8188
@brentmcmahon8188 Жыл бұрын
05 3rd Gen 3500 4 door long bed dullay HO 5.9 6 speed 5600 cast iron case .?I even got 2 4” shifter for transmission and one for manual 4x4 floor shifter and don’t for get your loctite set screw and I got that from one of your video. Keep up the good work. Oh my first new Dodge 5600 1992 standard cab long bed 2500 and the next new one was the 05 and you will like this the 93 19000 and my 05 34000 and I have been offered window sticker price cash money and this truck is mint and bright white only color to go they always look clean and cool in Summer the 05 is a Laramie and I have hauled cars and trucks for GM that’s how I seen my first Dodge commons and I waited for all the little things fixed like 5600 trans and put on a intercooler and then I bought the 92.
@travissullivan5476
@travissullivan5476 5 жыл бұрын
My 08 with the 68rfe is now built. Very smooth until you need beast mode. Then it’s on. 5 upgrades in the torque converter alone. All the stick shifts I looked at were worn out. I agree a “manstrans” is best for towing.
@crazyDIYguy
@crazyDIYguy Жыл бұрын
I did a port and polish behind a manual, immediately felt a massive difference in power it was awesome, have done two behind automatics, they seemed to eat up the extra torque, barely felt anything on the upgrades. One had paddle shift, locking torque converter too. I hate autos.
@dhh1968
@dhh1968 5 жыл бұрын
In 2017, I came out of another brand that I was very loyal to and purchased a RAM 3500 SRW LB with the Aisin. I can't believe how easily the new truck tows and shifts. I always fought with transmission heat in the old truck. This one stays cool even on the hottest days. I hope to be upgrading to a fifth wheel in the future and have full confidence the my truck will handle it with no problems. Love my RAM!!
@bigbossman5969
@bigbossman5969 5 жыл бұрын
people should install aux transmission coolers and change your transmission fluid regulary and u won't have any problems
@dhh1968
@dhh1968 5 жыл бұрын
@@bigbossman5969 Actually, I did all of those things with the old truck and still fought heat problems. I even had a local transmission builder look at it, multiple times. His answer was to install multiple transmission coolers (an auxiliary up front going into an electric fan unit under the bed) to "try" to solve the heat issues. I realize that my transmission was likely an anomaly, but enough was enough after two pricey rebuilds. The new RAM has solved my problem.
@bigbossman5969
@bigbossman5969 5 жыл бұрын
@@dhh1968 o ok. maybe u didn't have a big enough cooler
@dhh1968
@dhh1968 5 жыл бұрын
@@bigbossman5969 I had the 6.0 cooler on a 7.3. Like I said, my transmission was just a lemon. I have friends who had the same truck and never had the problems that mine had. Apparently, not all transmissions are the same, even identical models.
@bigbossman5969
@bigbossman5969 5 жыл бұрын
@@dhh1968 exactly u get some good ones and some bads ones i don't care what brand they are. u can also get the kind of cooler with a fan on it. i even seen a video were the cooler was mounted under the truck with a fan on it
@mikestrucks
@mikestrucks 5 жыл бұрын
I will always prefer a manual transmission truck, but I have to say that I never had truck with a aisin transmission. Maybe it will change my mind.... my 68rfe Truck drives nice with stock power,but ones I started to tune and play with the truck,man i could feel that it want last for ever 😅
@Jon-O.
@Jon-O. 4 жыл бұрын
Guess we will have to instal Eaton fuller manuals now.
@bigmurph1447
@bigmurph1447 5 жыл бұрын
I had a 2012 dually with a g56 a 96 12v with a 47re and I did have a 96 12v with the nv4500 my favorite truck to drive was the 96 with the nv4500 but I made the mistake of selling it. My nv4500 shifted like butter compared to my g56.
@brandonstewart9632
@brandonstewart9632 4 жыл бұрын
I love my 2017 2500 with a G56. its just a great ride with and without a trailer in tow.
@LivingOnWheels
@LivingOnWheels 5 жыл бұрын
Best powertrain Ram has is the one they don't make haha. All bashing aside some good hard working trucks! I am just glad to see that Dodge has stepped up its build quality and interior quality.
@amandadavis9726
@amandadavis9726 5 жыл бұрын
I’ve enjoyed my ‘06 G56 with compounds for the past 10 years. It’s performed in every way that I’ve asked her to. I only use it mainly tow with, as I have no shortage of vehicles to use as a daily driver. I think that I’m at the point of an upgrade to an Aisin. Automatics is where my is desire is, lol. The Husband
@VBELTandSON
@VBELTandSON 5 жыл бұрын
new automatic trucks are so nice after driver a stick shift for ever. no complaints about switching
@amandadavis9726
@amandadavis9726 5 жыл бұрын
V-BELT and SON oh I know they are, lol!!! I’ll probably make that switch in the next year or so. It’ll depend on me getting my wife into a new ride and then see what happens with my daily driver as well. I’m tired of using a lifted truck as a daily driver, even though it’s an automatic. I don’t really care to drive that stick too much unless I’m towing. For a daily driver,...I’d settle with a Tahoe or Yukon Denali. The funny thing is that my driveway looks like your yard,...three SUVs and three diesel pickups, lol. The Husband
@coreyadams4646
@coreyadams4646 5 жыл бұрын
First and foremost, if you are towing a lot get 4:10s ratio on the drives. Second AISIN is the best, 2nd is the 68RFE because of towing capacity, The stick shift tow rating drops a lot. Deep Dish Pan all automatics and ensure you can stay below 195 degrees for longer life. Service them under severe duty intervals. I would say every 45K and good luck out there.
@VBELTandSON
@VBELTandSON 5 жыл бұрын
Corey Adams first and foremost. The 3500 does have 410s and the aisin. Tow rig. The 5500 has 4.44 gears bada$$ tow rig with a stick shift
@stevenhill7668
@stevenhill7668 5 жыл бұрын
I had the 2006 1 ton single rear wheel with the G56 and now I have 2017 Dually with the Aisin both 4x4's I miss the hell out of my stick shift but I do really the the new automatic if I could have keep both I certainly would have...I love both of them alot...great trucks
@davidbottles7298
@davidbottles7298 5 жыл бұрын
Doing great job with videos. Guys should drive any 4 speed from the 60’s and 70’s, they last, but suck to drive. The modern manuals in a Dodge are sweet. Just take any of them.
@crbourret
@crbourret 3 жыл бұрын
I had the 68RFE in my 2011 and when it was new with only 1100 miles on it, it over heated to 270 degrees and went into limp mode and I wasn't towing anything, it was January in NH! Brought it into the dealer and they couldn't find anything wrong and gave it back. I never liked the way it shifted after that.
@TheTsunamijuan
@TheTsunamijuan 5 жыл бұрын
I wish they offered the Aisin in the 2500 i would pay that price no question. Though so far i am very happy with the 68 in my 2018 2500 srw. though i haven't towed with it yet. Only 300 miles on the truck right now. This is my first diesel and the largest truck i have ever owned. But it certainly behaves better than the trans in my old truck. That mopar could never get programmed to shift correctly.
@VBELTandSON
@VBELTandSON 5 жыл бұрын
2500 with a 68 is a solid combo congrats on the new truck!
@Rich-mb6bw
@Rich-mb6bw 5 жыл бұрын
Just curious the difference between your truck and 3500 see with the aisin.
@TheTsunamijuan
@TheTsunamijuan 5 жыл бұрын
@@Rich-mb6bw I think the big thing is the HO cummins which is paired with the Aisin, and larger brakes and suspension components. So no coils in the rear with the 3500. That seems to be what makes the biggest difference between the two and their capacities.
@matthewobrien7830
@matthewobrien7830 5 жыл бұрын
Love the G56 and currently have one in my 05 but your last few videos are making me think auto for my next rig....... Great videos by the way.
@VBELTandSON
@VBELTandSON 5 жыл бұрын
thank you! and its weird idea but new autos are slick
@chanseormon
@chanseormon 5 жыл бұрын
I love the AISIN 6 Speed Automatic Transmission better than the 68RFE +V-BELT and SON
@chicomike5751
@chicomike5751 4 жыл бұрын
Hey Keith, Where at in Jefferson?? Over 60 years I lived in Shasta County. Redding, Fall River Mills, and Burney. If it weren't for that governor raising taxes all the time. I moved out 10 years ago. 2006 Ram Big Horn 2500.
@streetchicken5738
@streetchicken5738 5 жыл бұрын
2018 RAM 4X4 SB 3500 Laramie with 68RFE. I would speculate the Aisin is a better tranny and RAM delivers it with the HO for more HP/torque but if you spec out the legalities the tow / haul capabilities with the 68RFE is given a better overall capacity. This is due to the exra weight of the $2700 Aisin. Do you want the extra $2700 HO HP or the extra free 68RFE "legal" tow/haul capacities? I went 68RFE and saved $2700 with additional toe/haul ratings. Daily driver w/ 7000 miles. Outside of my 14/17 hand calc'd MPG ...... no issues
@jeepanimal2943
@jeepanimal2943 4 жыл бұрын
When, I ask, When, did we start buying pickup trucks, for the ride. And yes, we guys bought trucks with the "juice box" so our wives/girlfriends/weekend squeeze could drive to the store for beer/whiskey/condoms. Fiat/Chrysler dropped the Bomb! in my opinion, and I'm sure not many will reflect this opinion, when they decided to cancel the "Man'smision" as you have named it. Apply named, "Man'smision," because two thirds of all women out there couldn't drive a stick. That other third, were Country Girls, AND THEY KNEW HOW TO HANDLE A STICK! I looked recently at the Ram website, to "pre-order" a truck, decide what I need and what I wanted, and the 4500/5500 only comes with the automatics now! How the heck did we lose our Stickshift? It's like offering a four door Jeep! Good Vid, Man. Really good vid. But in my world, automatics don't exist.
@hondarevable
@hondarevable 5 жыл бұрын
2011 2500 2nd gen swapped mega cab G56 Val air ceramic dual disc. Love running gears!
@supporterofsanity
@supporterofsanity 5 жыл бұрын
After 45 years my shifting hand has become my coffee cup hand. 25k on the 68rfe, had her since new. Fingers crossed she holds since new lol. If They had the coil springs with the Aisin I would definitely have bought it. I'm a sissy I know
@VBELTandSON
@VBELTandSON 5 жыл бұрын
those coils are soo great! and taylors truck is at 195k on stock 68 fingers crossed knock on wood!
@davidholmberg1489
@davidholmberg1489 3 жыл бұрын
Very well articulated. I love Ram but for the love of God; stock all the trucks with a bulletproof transmission and call it a day. Hopefully they contract with Alison! Or perhaps ZF but they need to rid the 68 IMO... Ram is also offering “Additional Safety options” with their sales. Why should safety be for sale? It should be a standard! Anyways thanks!
@tiptoplandsolutions1421
@tiptoplandsolutions1421 Жыл бұрын
Great brakes u got there! Great subject coverage..
@maccheese9072
@maccheese9072 5 жыл бұрын
I got the 68 going to beef it up match the power of my truck I like the 68 better because there's lots of upgrades you can do with it or the Asin and you can't
@jackpeck2494
@jackpeck2494 5 жыл бұрын
mac cheese Yeah because it’s new it’s How the transmission last in the long run and the Aisin Will last longer
@garydevones6167
@garydevones6167 4 жыл бұрын
@@jackpeck2494 my 68 rfe has 218,000 pull large fifth wheels for a living and still strong as ever
@jadams736
@jadams736 5 жыл бұрын
The best transmission for an old 12 valve dodge cummins 2wd was a Eaton Fuller Rtoo 9513 .62 :1 in 8th over that's a moo moo hauling transmission just had to be slightly modified to bolt up
@glennglover4479
@glennglover4479 5 жыл бұрын
I like your I'm not a trucker cap, mr Reed flake has one too. Oklahoma rollin coal.
@jaketaylor5157
@jaketaylor5157 4 жыл бұрын
Bought a 2014 3500 not even realizing there was two different transmission options. The 68RFE is alright and it the one I have in mine. Aisin is much better. However, and Allison 1000 is the way to go. Blows em both out the water. Going to be swapping mine out one day after the 68 eventually shuts on me
@wyominghorseman9172
@wyominghorseman9172 5 жыл бұрын
Thank you for the very fair analysis. I have two 98 Ram2500 C with 5 speeds. 420,000 and 285,000 miles respectively. They've been awesome trucks used mostly for towing horse trailers and camp trailers. I had to rebuild the 5 speed on the high mileage unit at 340,000. It started sticking in 5th gear and reverse. I considered it normal maintenance for that mileage. My sweetheart just traded in her 08 Ram 1500 for a new 2018 Ram2500 C Bighorn at the end of December, we got a hell of a buy. And your right again, the suspension drives and rides like a Cadillac. The transmission with the Tow mode and Jake brake will be a marvel towing over 9,965 foot Towgetee Pass! Our friends bought a 2016 and they never touch the brakes with a six horse trailer loaded. Happy Trails.
@billythomas9191
@billythomas9191 4 жыл бұрын
Late to the party but I will be purchasing my first diesel. 2012 with a 68 I would assume. Trading in a 2015 Chevy 2500hd 6.0L for it. Very nervous but after researching I am feeling a little more confident. The ram has been maintained very well and has 68,000 miles 8 years later. Any advice in maintenance I should perform right away?
@mitchellgodkin6102
@mitchellgodkin6102 5 жыл бұрын
Love your channel. Great line up of trucks! Im also in the wood industry and use our 2018 G56 and 2014 Aisen 3500 Laramies for work. Great drone shots as well ! Keep up the good work.
@VBELTandSON
@VBELTandSON 5 жыл бұрын
thank you!
@jacobmoses3712
@jacobmoses3712 Жыл бұрын
Has anyone put a ZF 8HP70 in one of these trucks?
@gunfreak565
@gunfreak565 4 жыл бұрын
Guess it’s just me or I’m lucky I don’t know. I’ve had good luck with RFE transmissions. Had the 545RFE in my 2004 Hemi 1500 and now have the 68RFE in my 2018 2500 Cummins. 2018 only has 10,000 miles on it but that old 2004 Hemi had close to 200,000 when I traded it and still shifted like brand new. If this 68 holds up as good as that 545 did I’ll be happy happy!
@MrKThomas1976
@MrKThomas1976 5 жыл бұрын
Great video as always. I’ve just bought a 2018 Ram 2500 4x4 with the 68 love it so far But then again I’ve only had it A little over three weeks. It’s in Delmonica red pearl it will toe my 10,000 lbs travel trailer bumper pull.
@timothyarmstrong5987
@timothyarmstrong5987 2 жыл бұрын
Automatic allows my Lady next to me. You can go ahead and grab your stick. LOL
@dodgeman4046
@dodgeman4046 5 жыл бұрын
I've had 2 68s a 48 and a 518 once you tune the 68 with efi live it's a new beast haven't driven the aisin yet
@jamessheets9205
@jamessheets9205 5 жыл бұрын
I have 07.5 2500 that originally had a 68rfe. I deleted and tuned the truck (h&s 175hp tune) it always shifted between 5th and 6th gear on rolling hills and was very annoying. Toasted it with the tuner and put the early sun coast kit in it and triple disc converter. Work was done by a local shop and that was a big mistake. Had it out 3 or 4 times in total. A time or two for stupid things like a backwards snap ring. Last time it quit it died just north of New Orleans when my cousin was driving it (I live in south east Missouri). I was lucky that my father could haul the truck back home for me. It was fixed after that but just never felt right and I didn't trust it. I swapped in a zf6 from a 6.0 powerstroke using parts from destroked. Put in a south bend dual disc clutch and haven't looked back. It gets old shifting in traffic but I have faith in my transmission.
@Aretegy
@Aretegy 7 ай бұрын
I bought an 06 5.9 quad cab short box for boat hauling and 5th wheel towing... thats what i wanted but could not find a manual anywhere with those specs so i bought the manual cuz i knew i could swap it out later and update .. I want to do a auto to manual swap.. looking into the nv5600,g56 and the aison... appreciate your channel and videos...definitely helps with my in depth research. any other advice is appreciated
@davefox8948
@davefox8948 5 жыл бұрын
The problem with the manual trans in the 2500/3500 is they don’t get near the TOW CAPACITY RATING of a auto. Since 2013, The AISIN AS69RC has the highest rating of any offered transmission in a RAM Pickup. 2500/3500.
@VBELTandSON
@VBELTandSON 5 жыл бұрын
Dave Fox yup that’s why I bought the new truck with the aisin
@davefox8948
@davefox8948 5 жыл бұрын
V-BELT and SON Gotta say, I wish I had your cash flow! That’s a whole bunch of $$$$$$$$ in High Dollar pick’em ups. TGF WRITE OFFS!
@chrisragsdale354
@chrisragsdale354 3 жыл бұрын
I have an 04 with a nv5600 and just got a g56 in a 06. The g56 has definitely grown on my. No autos in the fleet for now.
@adambatchelder4121
@adambatchelder4121 5 жыл бұрын
I agree for the most part, however I'm in California so hear diesel smog starts in 97 so that's where I stop getting new trucks
@VBELTandSON
@VBELTandSON 5 жыл бұрын
Adam Batchelder I’m in Cali. Smog in 98 and newer. Sucks for sure
@jazzsounds8159
@jazzsounds8159 5 жыл бұрын
An Aisin can handle 64% more input on the shaft than a 68, aisin is a $2700 upgrade.
@bigbossman5969
@bigbossman5969 5 жыл бұрын
for the price difference is should b a better transmission
@ItsCertified
@ItsCertified 4 жыл бұрын
what years does rams have the Aisin transmissions?
@Justadudeman22
@Justadudeman22 4 жыл бұрын
I think he means allison
@louisturner8842
@louisturner8842 4 жыл бұрын
He meant aisin. AS69RC is the best. Never will I own a Chrysler brand transmission again. Had an 01 v10 that ate three 47re trans in a year. Shit that bitch in the dirt, shot it full of holes and burnt it to the ground. Fuck that v10 8mpg pos that ate 6000$ transmissions!
@ronyoung6054
@ronyoung6054 4 жыл бұрын
@@Justadudeman22 no it's Aisin
@christopheradams4677
@christopheradams4677 5 жыл бұрын
My Isoniazid lol has pulled a wonderful 33k dumping rock down a drive. Ram 3500 crewcab dually 2014
@gslife1
@gslife1 5 жыл бұрын
I love my G56 pistol grip all day
@davidmoore5021
@davidmoore5021 5 жыл бұрын
98 12v 4500. I wanted a automatic but I got a swing deal on my 5 speed truck. Now what I don’t like about nv4500 is the step between 3 and 4. I would like to put a 6 speed in..... was leaning towards nv 6 but now you got me thinking about g56. Thanks for sharing.
@jamesvuxta8723
@jamesvuxta8723 Жыл бұрын
I have an o7 with the 48re I like how it drives and it tows well also
@NicholasTylerDinkel
@NicholasTylerDinkel Жыл бұрын
Really nice 🙂
@racnruss
@racnruss 3 жыл бұрын
I agree with your summary. But, man it took way too long.
@RJ-sr5dv
@RJ-sr5dv 2 жыл бұрын
2006. 48Re, 100,000 miles. 3500 DRW. 4x4 410 rear. Want to improve fuel mileage.. Best new trans???
@joelstevensz06
@joelstevensz06 3 жыл бұрын
Hey, great video. Being new to the cummins world Id just say you could maybe add subtitles for the yr/gen. Other than that constructive criticism great video. I have a question. I'm looking at the 11-13 ram. Should i get a man/auto. Daily use
@surfstarcc1
@surfstarcc1 8 ай бұрын
I've snapped 3 NV4500s in half right behind the bell housing, so that's my experience..😢
@jmgrefrigeration4000
@jmgrefrigeration4000 3 жыл бұрын
Nice video, I have a 2018 2500 last year of the G56! 😣😢 Laramie with light beige seats and dark brown dash and trim. Every option in it. Has 10,000 miles it’s my weekend warrior if I’m not working. I’m always working lol, work truck is a 2021 3500 crew long box with custom duramag enclosed body with Aisin. HO motor and Aisin tranny will pull anything. I’m always loaded with tools and supplies, get 14 miles a gallon all day. Highway get 15 almost 16 depending. 2018 G56 gets 18 city 21 highway
@gregbryan2227
@gregbryan2227 5 жыл бұрын
I have also owned all the configurations offered except the Aisin but I'd have to disagree with you on the manual's. I think the best was the nv5600, 2nd choice the nv4500 (after 5th gear nut fix of course), then lastly the g56. My 06 g56 in very noisy and is hard shifting and first gear doesn't seem low enough to get heavy loads moving as well as the other two manuals do.
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