Best four down tow vehicle for a Leisure Travel Van? Let's talk weights and limits!

[@michelpaulcote156]

We pulled a Jeep Wrangler 2 drs behind our Tiffin Breeze. When we changed to the Unity TB 2020, the Jeep was way too heavy. Replaced by a Toyota Yaris manual. The weight was perfect, hardly noticeable. However, after a few months of traveling with and without the Yaris, we decided we din't need nor used a car. The Unity pretty much goes everywhere. With the 400w solar panels, we don't need services most of the time. Leaving is just a matter of turning the seats, starting the engine and off we go! Food for thoughts 🤔 before spending a lot of money. Thanks for the videos, appreciated.

[@Pagosa]

How has it been going from larger to smaller RV? Glad you did? Thanks for sharing

[@michelpaulcote156]

@@Pagosa Best decision we ever made. We traveled about 5 months/year for the last 10 years, about 175,000 miles. Our last trip out West (the canyons, great circle) in the Breeze, we found it frustrating not to be able to access multiple boodocking spots that smaller RVs used. We are used to living in small spaces for long periods (ex sailors for 25 years), and, as you know, the Unity TB is very luxurious, with great autonomy. We also enjoy no planning no reservations traveling. A small rig is more suitable for our type of travel. Boondocking is not for everybody, some prefer longer stays at campgrounds where a bigger rig is no problem.

[@dwoodygura]

We don't have a LTV as of yet, but the discussion of whether we'll take a toad always comes up. We are more travelers than campers. We like to take our bikes out, check out local sights & restaurants. Never thought of the Cross Trek but seems like a great option. Used Ford Fiesta seems a lot less expensive but I would not want it for an everyday driver. Thx for the insight.

[@dandoe7260]

We're looking at a 2019 manual toyota yaris, but all info we found on it says that it's not flat towable, wondering if you happen to know anything different? Also, what year was your yaris ? Thank you

[@stanprice2857]

One negative you forgot to mention about towing is the combined length while in transit. Your highly maneuverable 25 ft which is easy to park almost anywhere has become a 40 ft+ pain in the rear to maneuver in tight areas or to park. We have found this to be a real limiting factor when traveling and a major reason for selecting a more compact rig.

[@Pagosa]

Definitely a con I could have added, plus the inability to back up. Thanks for the input.

[@mariahdurham8353]

Great video, just the information I was looking for. Thank you so much!

[@Pagosa]

Glad it helped!

[@colormedubious4747]

Thanks for the info! Some thoughts: 1) Not all Unity models are created equal. Different years, different floor plans, different weights. Your weight may vary! As he advises, do your own math. 2) If 30 pounds makes the difference between legal and illegal then you have NO safety margin. Zero, zilch, squat, nada. That's one or two bags of groceries. 3) Towing even a small car behind a compact RV will affect not just the mileage but also the handling, turning radius, site availability, and so much more. 4) Your tolls and entry/user fees will increase. 5) Your duallies will throw rocks at your toad. Lots and lots of rocks. 6) Although you're only wearing out one engine, you're wearing out 10 tires. Conclusion: My toad will be a hitch-mounted bike carrier and a pair of bicycles. I'll pay a little more for a site closer to my destination, whether that be inside a National Park or near a rail station close to whichever city I'm touring. In most cases, I'll just drive the rig. That's what it's designed to do.

[@Pagosa]

Yes, I am basing this on the 2019 / 2020 chassis, as that is what I have. Definitely look at your chassis weight limits. The difference between legal and safe is a wide margin. The GVWR and GCVWR limits are set to be far from the safety limits. The vehicle is capable of much more, but they rate them for ultimate safety. Towing a car will most certainly affect the driving experience for sure. Towing a car is really for those that want to experience more than they can in just their LTV. For many, it's not needed at all and bikes or even a scooter will do the job.

[@colormedubious4747]

@@Pagosa Thanks for answering! I know that "legal" and "safe" can be wildly variant things but catching a citation or having a claim denied is fiscally unsafe! ;-)

[@chucklesthefireguy5356]

GCVW likely has factory safety margins as well.

[@beachmartinislehrerrosman3553]

Great video! We have a 2020 LTV UCB and today looked at a Subaru Crosstrek! Then we saw this video and I think it confirmed our decision to move forward with the Crosstrek Premium with manual transmission. Thank you!

[@Pagosa]

That’s great! I certainly think it’s the best choice if you don’t mind a manual transmission. Have fun!

[@yvonnezhao1367]

do you think LTV UCB can tow a Outback? 4000lbs

[@egoncool1]

I have a new unity and I tow very frequently with it. I tow a track car on a car trailer as well as a Cherokee trailhawk 4 down. I am very cognizant of weight and weigh my rig pretty much every trip on a CAT scale. I usually run right at maximum allowable weight. It is my impression that the vast majority of unity owners run overweight, based on what they say they carry. It’s all too easy to do. I find it interesting that people fret about storage space, when they should be more concerned about weight, as that is usually the limiting factor. While I believe that the published maximum weights are conservative, I agree that you exceed them at your own risk. I love my Trailhawk and highly recommend it as a 4 down toad. It also serves as a great daily driver, and is much more versatile and comfortable than the wrangler. It is a truly capable off road vehicle, much more so than a standard SUV like the Subaru (don’t ask me how I know). The curb weight of 4250 does include full fuel and fluid, and I try to keep it under a quarter of a tank for some wiggle room. 4 wheel down is nice and more convenient than a trailer, but I have observed that the towed vehicle is not as stable. You really need to keep abrupt maneuvers to a minimum.

[@Pagosa]

Great info, appreciate you sharing. Safe travels!

[@keithhawkins8753]

Great video and thank you for all the other videos related to Leisure Travel Van. My comment is please have a look at the Chevy Spark. I know, I know there are a whole bunch of attitudes and opinions on towing and choice of vehicles. "Personal preference" is critical and needs vary widely. Let me offer a few of my considerations. First, very much like you emphasized, weight is important. The Chevy Spark weighs in at roughly 2300 pounds, roughly a thousand pounds below the vehicles you mentioned. I have only made one panic stop, in a previous life, while towing a 19 foot Airstream Bambi. It was not pretty and took months off my life. Towing the Spark in my 2020 Unity TB is painless. The car is a 'Third-world' car with no frills. The windows roll down with a hand crank, there is no cruise control but all the pluses outweigh the no frills. I chose the car for the weight primarily but it also has high ground clearance for near off-road adventures. I can carry four average sized adults in comfort for short distances. To not take too much space and your time I will bullet or short blurb some of the other things I love about the little car: Great gas mileage; Great Air Conditioning; Love the Apple Car Play; Easy to hook up I just pull up behind the van on a level spot and it is so light I can push it back and forth with one hand for fine adjustment to the hitch; Chevy warranty not affected; Only have to install a battery disconnect (as I did) or take off the negative battery cable; Holds two nice size containers in the rear seats for 'extra-stuff'; 6 gallons of water in one gallon jugs fit like a glove in the rear floor board low and near the center of gravity; You can leave the car running with the A/C on for Fido while at a shopping spot or cafe; The list goes on. Please have a look at the Spark. Do your typical running the numbers and careful research. Stop by a Chevy lot and ask for a test drive. It is not impressive but it does a fantastic job of getting you to town or to a trailhead or other point of adventure leaving the LTV safe and secure at your hard earned spot.

[@Pagosa]

That's great. love that weight. I will include that in part 3 of this series when I hit on the under 3k pound cars that are flat towable. Thanks for watching!

[@azores-pv6ft]

Excellent video. Well done explaining a subject that I always was looking to find answer for. Many thanks for providing the info.

[@Pagosa]

Thanks!

[@rippleyunicorn7321]

For anyone who wants to skip a 5min intro he gets into it at 5:18

[@Pagosa]

👍

[@joanmcerlean7158]

Don’t tow but I’m into cars. A Subaru Crosstrek sounds like a great choice. Reliability and quality rankings over the years are always top-notch. Can the same be said for Jeep? No. By the way, I’m with your Janet, I’d sooner learn to tow a trailer than have to drive a manual. 🤓 Great video.

[@Pagosa]

I've only heard great things about Subaru's, so that speaks volumes!

[@mattsolomon6292]

From someone that’s done it, gas mileage of the toad is huge. Means less fuel in it, less weight, less aggravation when your rig is D and your toad is G. Fuel the toad a quarter tank at a time. Makes for an awesome golf vehicle. Also, consider installing electric ball valves in your Grey, but also your Fresh. Got that advice from people towing in the mountains. Steep grades + weather headwind + toad is a terrible combination makes sense to be able to quickly ditch the water weight with an internal flip of the switch.

[@Pagosa]

Great insight. Thanks for sharing !

[@mattsolomon6292]

@@Pagosa was talking to a buddy, he said hatchbacks. “Forget the jr wrangler it won’t get you any where extra and will cost much more. Get a light weight hatchback, back seats down and you can store golf clubs, skis, rifles, fishing gear no problem, easy access.” Thought I’d share.

[@Pagosa]

Absolutely, the Cross Trek is a great choice for that in my opinion

[@debrawong614]

The real value of this vid is finding out what cars are still being made with a manual. I miss them! Currently drive a BMW 328d which I think may be too complicated and heavy to tow.

[@Pagosa]

Yes, our rent cars in the UK are always manual and I love it

[@janellemadeley6664]

For Model Year 2021, Jeep introduced the Cherokee Latitude Lux 4x4 that comes standard with Active Drive II. Curb weight is 3960 pounds. It has automatic transmission, leather seats (heated). You can also get auto tailgate and a few other convenience features. Very nice vehicle. We plan to flat tow this Jeep behind our 2022 Unity MB when it arrives. An added feature is that it comes with a 2 inch hitch so you can unhook from your RV, load your bikes and head to the trailhead.

[@Pagosa]

Thanks! Doing a part 2 of this video and will include

[@toddwestby751]

Love your channel and very informative! Thanks and keep it up.

[@Pagosa]

Thanks Todd, appreciate you watching the channel!

[@miamisammy4020]

I just did my first time tow with my 2019 LTV Unity CB. My toad is a 2009 Honda CR-V that I already owned. Only 2 mishaps during my 1st experience. 1.) I forgot at home or didn't receive the break away cable from the installer. Just need to find it or buy one at a trailer shop. 2.) Since I had to leave the key in the ignition after putting the car in neutral, I left the accessory light on in the car with my 3rd party radio head unit on by mistake and it drained my car battery. I got a jump and disconnected the battery during tow after that to make sure it didn't happen again. But, my Demco brake notification failed to wirelessly notify me that my car brakes were being engaged when I applied the brakes in my van. So, the battery needs to be connected for that to work. Just thought I'd share that with you as this video was an integral part of my research and decision to spend the money on tow bar for my toad. Thanks much!

[@Pagosa]

Ah, all trial and error. There is a battery charger you can add that will keep your battery charged up so you never worry about arriving with a dead battery.

[@miamisammy4020]

@@Pagosa I thought I had that battery charger as part of my installation. I’d rather not have to unhook the car battery negative cable or install a disconnect switch to avoid this happening again. I’ll have to check with my installer. Thanks!

[@tonymuccari6112]

Great information....concise and to the point. Waiting for my Unity this coming January looking at the Ford Focus to flat tow, will take a look at the cross trek Keep up the good work on the videos TONY

[@Pagosa]

Congrats Tony; you will love the Unity: let me know how the Ford goes if thats what you end up with.

[@seanschommer]

We are going with the GMC Denali Terrain at 3801 curb weight. We looked at the Subaru but is manual and only comes in the lowest spec interior. GMC has heated leather seats and steering wheel. Lane assist and creature comforts. Relatively quite ride and AWD. Wish there were more options out there but need my bikes and extra storage. Now just need the Unity to get here!! Thanks for the video!

[@Pagosa]

Very nice!

[@larrygray1557]

Be careful, hopefully caught you in time in time but the Terrain, unlike it's corporate cousin Equinox, IS NOT 4 down towable, and the AWD is not dolly towable. I knew it for prior years and just looked at the 2021 owners manual online, page 320 "The vehicle was not designed to be towed with all four wheels on the ground. The vehicle may be towed using a platform trailer with all four wheels off the ground. Some vehicles may be dolly towed. See the following information on dolly towing." With me it is a tossup between the Chevy Equinox (Premier roughly equal to Denali) both engines and drivetrains are 4 down towable and the Ford Escape Hybrid in Titanium trim, both FWD and AWD. Sadly, I do like the looks of the Terrain over the Equinox, but despite them being corporate twins, apparently the push button linkage impacts the toad setting availability on the Terrain where the Equinox has more traditional shift lever.

[@Pagosa]

Just looked in the Motorhome Magazine Dinghy towing guide and the Terrain was not on the list. Do your homework for sure!

[@charlespinkham6520]

Subaru website shows the Crosstrek Premium is available with manual trans, about $1k more.

[@seanschommer]

@@Pagosa Well now I am confused. I confirmed with GMC directly and they confirmed it was dinghy towable. Stopped by the dealership and the service area showed me how to engage in neutral in the engine compartment. Like most flat tow’s the recommended under 65 MPH. I will visit the Dinghy towing guide. why can’t things be straight forward. Ugh!!

[@dogzdad123]

We tow a 2door Jeep Wrangler Rubicon behind our 2014 Unity MB RV. Yeah, it has the big tires and removed the back seat. The back is used to carry a spare tire for the RV...it doesn’t come with one. I know that we’re at the limit for weight...which freaks me out. Actual towing is not a noticeable problem. In fact, you almost forget it’s back there. Downside: I carry a car battery charger! The auxiliary brake that is mandatory and the on board Jeep systems while towing WILL drain the vehicle battery big-time. We were stuck with a dead Jeep in rural Washington for days. If I had known about the Subaru.

[@Pagosa]

Can you rig up a charge from the alternator from the LTV to charge the jeep battery while you drive? That's a bummer for sure.

[@chrisra48]

I have a 2020 UFX and tow a 2016 Smart car it is perfect and is only 2200 lbs.

[@Pagosa]

You probably forget it's there!

[@chrisra48]

The Smart car is Automatic and can be towed four down.

[@robrobertson8584]

Thank-you for the great information and explanation of what the cargo carrying capacity and towing capacity actually are. I have been looking into the Unity as well as a number of other similar RV units based on the Mercedes 3500 chassis and find myself frustrated about how little payload (passengers, water, gear) these B+ Motorhomes actually have. Your video is terrific because I think there are many owners that really don’t understand what their actual Cargo Carrying Capacity is nor to they understand that just because the Unity (and others) have a 5,000 pound hitch, they can’t actually tow that much weight. I love the Unity product however, as I am 6’6” tall, the interior height of 6’5” on the Unity makes it a challenge for me. I also like the Dynamax Isata 3 as it has an inside height of 6’8”, however, its Cargo Carrying Capacity is just over 900 lbs. As you have noted, just the weight of yourself, your spouse, your dog and a full tank of fresh water chews up over 500 pounds! Thus, a light weight toad like the Subaru would allow a person the ability to carry your e-bikes, golf clubs, etc. in the toad so the Unity is not overweight. It is unfortunate that, for people who don’t need/want towing capacity because they don’t intent to tow anything but could use more CCC, the RV Manufacturers don’t allow selecting the Mercedes 4500 chassis as an option as it gives you 1,100 more pounds of CCC at the expense of the towing capacity (the GCWR of the 3500 and 4500 chassis are the same - 15,250 pounds).

[@Pagosa]

Hey Rob, agree, so many people don't understand the limitations. Dynamax is a good product. Let me know how it goes if you go that route.

[@Tnapvrvideo]

All great points. I stand 6'4". I have written LTV numerous times over several years asking them to consider adding a couple of inches to the interior height, however they have kept with the 6'5" interior height. I believe that other brands offer a 6'8" interior height on a Mercedes chassis so it appears to be possible.

[@jeffkirk738]

Thanks for all of your input on the Crosstrek! I called Etrailer who stated that they set up these Crosstreks for flat towing fairly frequently! The parts list all the way up to the 2021 are the same so since we are never going to get Subaru to state it can be towed (pretty consistent with all of the light weight small SUV's) I am moving forward with the Crosstrek. As a note, if you buy the flat tow package from Etrailer they install for free. Unfortunately they only have one location and its 1000 miles away in St Louis, MO. Not getting my Unity until end of year and will let you know how the trip goes to St Louis! Maybe by then the Ford Bronco sport at 3400 lbs might still be an option if Ford changes their mind about flat towing!

[@Pagosa]

Wow, thanks for that info. I definitely had planned on buying from e-trailer and now that's a no brainer for a road trip up there. If you look at Marc's invoice from Keep Your Daydream, they spent over $1600 getting everything installed. Let me know how it goes!

[@jeffkirk738]

@@Pagosa Unfortunately it sounds like my 2022 Unity due at end of year is @ 3 months late due to all of the supply issues! Looks like March when I will be heading to St Louis and BTW they need both the vehicle and RV for three days with no dry docking! Will certainly post my experience and thanks for all of the great videos!!

[@tcwaterdrill]

He finally gets to his list at 12:53 mark. Start there if you don't like people go on and on before they get to the subject.

[@Pagosa]

Did my wife have you write that? 😂

[@DaVincyi]

Brandon, I’ve heard from your channel that they will have the 4 by 4 coming up. Is there an update for that?

[@Pagosa]

Not that I've heard of, but still fingers crossed

[@Runhikeandbike]

Brandon, Thanks for everything. Definitely have us looking at LTV as opposed to the WB Navion. Are you familiar with the towing capacity of the Wonder series? I couldn't find it and wanted to ask if you knew? Thanks for your help.

[@Pagosa]

You will love an LTV! The 2021 and up Wonder have 4,200 pound tow (except the TB, it’s at 2000 because go bike garage). You could basically tow anything on my lists. I think I made three vids total about how vehicles with Ford Maverick being my top choice.

[@Runhikeandbike]

@@Pagosa Thank you! That helps a lot. Thanks too! The Maverick looks like a great option now as well. Glad we found your channel!

[@charlespinkham6520]

Had never considered the Subaru! Our current TOAD for our Unity RL is a 2014 Ford Focus Hatchback manual, well within the weights even with 'spensive bikes inside but I'd LOVE to have a 4WD for the woods and trails. Not overly fond of the civilian Jeeps, having driven the old M-151 and HMMV's in the army, anything less is for sissies ;). The Subaru would work and it's 600 lbs. less than the Focus, hmmmmm.

[@Pagosa]

I think it's the best toad for an LTV if you don't mind manual transmission for sure.

[@artbarney]

2020 Ford Escape Titanium Hybrid/Curb weight 3,534 to 3,668 lbs. works well and gets great mileage. Hybrid only can be flat towed

[@Pagosa]

Yes, a great solution as well.

[@j.foobar1764]

As I travel a lot for work and generally rent the smallest (see: cheapest) vehicle on most trips to avoid grousing from accounting, I end up driving a lot of Nissan Versas since Enterprise keeps a lot of them in their fleets. I am 6'4" and 285-ish and I still find them quite roomy in the front seats and they drive quite well. Not the greatest highway car due to the short wheelbase but you won't be driving toads on long highway drives too often anyway. That's what the LTV is for. You can get a new one (manual, of course) for $13K-ish and they only weigh a little more than a Chevy Spark at ~2600 lbs, which means they should comfortably work for LTV Wonders as well. Sure, I'd rather have a Crosstrek also, but a Versa is 500 pounds lighter and about $10K less on MSRP. Good Sam lists it as their favorite compact in the 2020 dinghy vehicle guide as well, which was nice to see.

[@Pagosa]

Great advice!

[@tammyanderson9007]

Hello, do you still tow your Subaru Crosstrek? If so, what tow bar did you purchase? I don’t have a Leisure Van, but I do have an American Coach Patriot .

[@Pagosa]

I actually did not go with the cross trek, but have several friends that did. They like it.

[@Tnapvrvideo]

I believe toad selection must include intended/anticipated use of the toad when making your selection. Subaru makes fabulous, reliable compact SUV's. We owned two Subaru Foresters. Both were superb: absolutely fantastic! That said, we would not choose a Subaru for our toad because we need an off-road capable vehicle with higher clearance and larger, sturdier A/T tires for the trail riding that we do. We own a 4dr Sahara Jeep Wrangler with BFG KO2 tires for that reason. Is it as dependable as the Subaru? No. Is it bad? No. Our Jeep has been perfectly fine in all regards, maintenance wise, and it is superb as an off-road, trail vehicle. If our intended use for our toad was city driving and mellow dirt roads, we'd purchase a Subaru or a Honda Fit. A 2dr Jeep and careful planning would work just fine with the Unity. It'll certainly come close to max weight which is not ideal, but I would not be concerned so long as it stays under the max. It's easy to connect and disconnect a toad. Plan ahead, pull over, and disconnect when upcoming situations would be best handled with separate vehicles. It's no big issue, and the off-road advantages the Jeep offer are well worth this added effort.

[@Pagosa]

Can’t disagree with this at all

[@42Pros]

Sony alpha 7 cameras have great AF too Mr. B!😜

[@Pagosa]

Lol, this was the one time I used my Fuji XT4 instead of my Canon R. Never again! 😂

[@42Pros]

@@Pagosa well when you feel like leaving “the dark side of the force,” come join us over here with Sony. 😂🤣😂

[@Pagosa]

@@42Pros been considering trying Sony for a while. Have a ton of Canon glass and love Canon, but might add a Sony to the arsenal. Love Fuji stills but video not so much.

[@42Pros]

@@Pagosa FX30 will start shipping out in 7-10 days and is a GREAT video option that is budget friendly for what the camera offers; Sigma 16mm and the Tamron 17-70 and you should be able to film everything from your interviews in the office to road trips plus the gear upgrade videos.

[@Pagosa]

@@42Pros gonna check it out thanks!

[@gsschab6001]

Very informative. Thank you. I'm surprised the new Bronco isn't on your short list in lieu of the Cherokee!

[@Pagosa]

I haven't seen the weights on those yet, but if they have one in the range, will definitely be on the list!

[@khalftruck3079]

They are about 900lbs more then the Jeep.

[@donc5271]

Did you give any consideration to the new Ford Escape Hybrid? The AWD version comes in at 3,668 and is pretty easily set up to be flat towed via some settings in the dashboard menu and would be an Automatic transmission for your wife.

[@Pagosa]

I knew it was in the specs, but I wanted a more “outdoorsy” capable vehicle which is why the Jeeps and the Subaru made the short list.

[@garyf2419]

Just a note of clarification: FMVSS regulations stipulate the definition of curb weight = all fluids topped off including the fuel tank. You do not need to add fuel weight to your calculations if you are using the certification weight from the manufacturer.

[@Pagosa]

Did not know that. Thanks!

[@wwells3956]

Great info thanks. Not sure for me that the compromise of a 25 ft. LTV and toad is worth the effort. I wonder what some good alternatives might be on a more robust chassis. Working close to the limit of the machine does not seem like the best approach. W

[@Pagosa]

True. Lot's of people choose this size so they can use the RV as the only transport option. A light tow vehicle will keep you far clear from the limit of the LTV and would definitely agree a heavier one would not be smart.

[@pow6574]

Curb weight generally includes the fluids in the car, with 90% fuel in the tank

[@Pagosa]

Yes, found that out after I made the video. Thanks for sharing!

[@JohnGrahamrealtor]

I see on the Subaru website that they don’t advise 4 down towing on the Crosstrek. Not sure what the issue is and if it would void the new car Warrentee?

[@Pagosa]

They stopped supporting it in 2015, but it’s still flat towable. Many do it and I would suspect it would void the warranty

[@chtdmt]

Curb weight includes fuel. Subaru dealer would not sell us a Crosstrek to tow; it is not recommended. What about the older Honda CRV?

[@Pagosa]

Subaru stopped supporting towing in 2015 (assume for liability issues), however many still do it and the vehicle is capable of it. A recent high profile KZbin channel, Keep Your Daydream, bought and outfitted a '21 Cross Trek and tow all the time with it. Also many in the LTV community are buying the newer Cross Treks and towing. I've heard older CRVs are also great tow vehicles. Yes, I learned about the fuel and curb weight after the video, so that will help a bit as well.

[@elgatodh_engineering7712]

I'm surprise you didn't mention the Ford Maverick hybrid :O

[@Pagosa]

It wasn’t released yet. It’s what I have and have several videos on it. Check the channel and you will find them

[@AlfredoLopez-gd9wi]

Good video. You’ve reinforced a lot of the weight calculations we’ve done for the RV’s and toads we’ve considered. Quick question, did you take into account the tongue weight of the toad on the tow vehicle?

[@Pagosa]

There isn't any tongue weight except for the 20 or so pounds that the tow bar weighs since all the weight of the vehicle is on the tires. The only weight you have to take into consideration is the horizontal pull as there is no vertical push. Thanks for watching!

[@AlfredoLopez-gd9wi]

@@Pagosa thanks for responding. Appreciate it !!!

[@dwoodygura]

Since I saw your video yesterday I did some research on towing the Cross Trek. Lots of discussion on Subaru sites about them no longer being towable. I just Google RV towing Cross Trek. Just FYI you might want to investigate further.

[@Pagosa]

Hey Sarah, Subaru officially stopped saying you can flat tow them after the 2015 model, but they are still flat towable with instructions in the owners manual. This would be a decision for the individual to make if they still would like to flat tow a 2016 and up Cross Trek. Our local dealer said that many of the auto makers have pulled their recommendation to flat tow due to the liability of it. Not sure if that's true, but makes sense as nothing in the manual transmission changed from 2015 to now. Thanks for the input!

[@johnyee9688]

Great video ! I think you forgot to add the weight of the hitch and all the accessories needed to tow the car

[@Pagosa]

Yes, it's all under 50 pounds, so should not be too much of a factor as long as you choose a vehicle that has some good capacity.

[@VailJohnson]

why would one want the hassle of a tow vehicle when you are driving an rv that will go everywhere a car will go? Seems like one great advantage of a small rv (we have a 26 foot airstream class A) is the ability to travel wherever in it, no? cheers

[@Pagosa]

I agree it's very much doable as a stand alone, but when you have camp set up and don't want to tear down for a day trip or just a quick evening out, it creates freedom. Plus we like to leave our dogs "at home" in the RV and go places they may not be welcome. Trade off of convenience and freedom for lugging around another vehicle. To each their own.

[@cassus4732]

To me they way we set up our LTV RTB wonder is a boondocker , lots of solar extra Gas and two E bikes

[@Pagosa]

You have that awesome bike garage, jealous!

[@bobbyGnOly]

great analysis. thanks

[@Pagosa]

Glad you liked it!

[@DD206]

If Subaru doesn’t authorize flat towing, wouldn’t it void the warranty if you bought a new one for flat towing. You’ve really got us interested in the crosstrek but would like to get new and have the warranty.

[@Pagosa]

Good question. I assume it would be a gamble if you flat tow one newer than a 2015. I would talk to my dealer and see what their thoughts are as they would be the one doing the work and overlooking the base plates.

[@Scrambler85]

This is the reason I bought a Ford E350 cutaway van with the 7.3 gas motor.I built my own RV with a 13,000 pound towing capacity.

[@Pagosa]

Nice. Happy new year and safe travels

[@bbokc6942]

with the wrangler, is that with a soft top or hard top?

[@Pagosa]

The lighter the better

[@jeffkirk738]

This was a great video! I have ordered a 2022 Unity MB which should deliver by end of year. I have been looking at the Kia Soul as my Toad but the Crosstrek looks very appealing as it is AWD and can be easily modified for off road. Since our first trip is west that would be a great vehicle!! Does it bother you that Subaru does not recommend towing any of their vehicles? Have you purchased a Crosstek for your Toad? In my research only a manual transmission would be suitable and even at that towing would more than likely void the warranty. In addition, finding a used one that doesn't cost as much as a new one has been challenging. Did you consider a Kia Soul. Kia does state that the Soul can be flat towed in both the manual and the 1.6 litre turbo automatic. Last question, were there any Crosstrek model years you discounted?

[@Pagosa]

Hey Jeff, Congrats on the MB. I haven't pulled the trigger on the Crosstrek yet. I'm actually going to do another video soon on more Toad options as that video was concentrated on more "off-roading" toads. I'm still leaning Crosstrek and prob the 2018 model. There is not huge price differences the older you get, but 2015 is the last model year Subaru supported in writing for flat towing. There are many people who flat tow 2016 and up Crosstreks and I think it was just a liability issue for Subaru and all manual CTs are actually flat towable. If you do get a CrossTrek, just be ready for any warranties to not possibly be honored. I haven't looked at the Kia, but will. Thanks for watching!

[@jeffkirk738]

@@Pagosa Just wanted to check back on your tow vehicle status. Since my original comment I have doubled down on a Crosstrek but not getting anything definitive information from either the local Sarasota dealer and completely ignored by Subaru corporate after requesting more information through their website! A deal breaker for me if modification of the transmission via an additional cooler or drive train disconnect as one of the salesman I spoke to stated even with a manual transmission the drive train will turn the transmission creating heat. If there is no change in whether all model years will either flat tow or not makes it hard to justify buying a 2018 for same price I can buy a new one. Yes, I am willing to forgo the warranty in anticipation of flat tow set up and off road modification. My wife and I plan on leaving next April from Florida for six months traveling out west and off roading is one of the things on my bucket list as I approach retirement! As I mentioned in my original comment, the Kia Soul would be my backup but would be just a "Toad "not an off road vehicle and I mean that literally not figuratively!! Will keep watching to see which way you go as it is great to follow a fellow LTV enthusiast with your experience!!

[@Pagosa]

@@jeffkirk738 I haven't pulled the trigger yet but there are so many people towing them that I don't think I would worry. I'm still trying to find one already set up rather than buy one and add everything, but no luck so far. If you went with a two door jeep that had no extras, I think you would be totally fine if you decided to go that route. I had considered doing the two door, removing the back seat and just going with that, but the cross trek would just be so much better for my dogs and such. Anyway, let me know what you go with. My email is [e-mail] if you want to chat that way as well.

[@jeffkirk738]

@@Pagosa If you go on KYD they just put a video on RVing in a class C as they are renting a Class A, C and B to highlight the differences. The class C is the latest and low and behold, they picked a late model Crosstrek to flat tow using a Roadmaster system. No one from Subaru recommends this but see more and more of them in my research and even saw some for sale that had the base plate already installed but they did not look in great shape. Anyway, if you are interested link is kzbin.info/www/bejne/jKmxqJZ4n8aUrLc. Want to get my toad by end of year and will let you know how I make out!

[@jeffkirk738]

www.keepyourdaydream.com/flat-tow/

[@PetesProjects0]

We've been towing a 2013 Ford C-Max for several years with our Unity. Well below the weight limit and has an automatic transmission. Expect a 2 mpg reduction when towing. I have learned the new Ford Maverick will be flat towable when equipped with the hybrid powertrain which will make that a very interesting future option.

[@Pagosa]

yes, saw that. Maverick would make a great tow vehicle as well. Have they released the curb weight yet?

[@richpickard1680]

We dolly towed friends Mazda standard to Florida first Winter with motorhome and my knee almost fell off after a week of traffic Came back to Canada bought a 2014Cadillac SRX all wheel drive which can be flat towed and we love it and it's automatic. NO more sore knee

[@Pagosa]

I've seen some Caddy's being flat towed. Curious all the year and models that allow it.

[@royireland1127]

Did you include the weight of the tow-bar/brake setup?

[@Pagosa]

Each is different, but probably account for about 35- 50 pounds for entire setup.

[@planespotterday6630]

Can you tow a Mazda CX-5 behind a American Coach Patriot MD4 Ext170?

[@Pagosa]

Not to my knowledge. You would have to look at the owners manual

[@WaltzJump]

Why don’t they give you the weight of the LTV with curb weight + full fuel, water, grey and black (hmm I guess that could vary slightly!!)

[@Pagosa]

They do all vary slightly as far as if you have a slide, a generator etc.

[@marioescanuelas8167]

What is wear and tear on a LTV towing a toad compared to not towing anything.

[@Pagosa]

will be a bit of a strain to the engine, but it's built to tow that. A lighter Toad would be better for long term on wear and tear

[@billcleveland3820]

Did you take the weight of the apparatus used to connect the tow vehicle to the RV into account?

[@Pagosa]

Good question, tow bars, base plates and the invisibrake system shouldn’t add more than 30 or so pounds depending on makes and models you choose. Definitely something to consider if you are at weight on your GVWR or GCVWR.

[@jamessaunders7359]

@@Pagosa Tow bars themselves are more than 30lbs as I lifted them several times. I would guess the bar, plates and such are closer to 80 lbs.

[@kevinnorris1434]

Good info thanks

[@Pagosa]

Glad you enjoyed it.

[@itstimetorv]

What year was the Crosstrek? Also what tow plate did you use?

[@Pagosa]

2015 is the last year the Subaru says you can flat tow, but newer ones can do it, they just don't say you can. etrailer.com has all the parts you need.

[@stephenross1745]

No TOAD - enterprise delivery

[@Pagosa]

👍

[@johnboland2980]

Brandon - are you still flat towing the Subaru Crosstrek (MT)? Any issues? We have a Crosstrek and when I asked the Service Mgr at our Subaru dealership he wanted no part of it. Just CYA of course, but it did give me pause. Thx.

[@Pagosa]

I haven't pulled the trigger yet, but will probably get a 2018 model. I've talked to plenty of people who flat tow past the Subaru commissioned 2015 model and it's fine. I think it's just a liability issue for Subaru and the dealers to not support any longer. But definitely do it knowing there is a risk of losing your warranty

[@petewenk]

We’re about to pull the trigger on a 2021 crossTrek manual transmission. Here’s something interesting: according to the owner manual, all Cross Treks, including the CVT models, can be towed four down. The CVTs have a speed and distance provision, but the manual transmission models do not have that limitation. So yes, the dealer screams and says you can’t, but there’s nothing in the book that I have found that limits towing four down, any speed, any distance. Look out if you’re in Canada…..there are manual transmission model marketed above the 49th that have proximity fobs which eliminates the ignition key. Thus, I’m not sure how you would unlock the steering wheel for towing, or better yet how you would keep the steering wheel unlocked while under day. Research that closely.

[@luisarocho1207]

@@petewenk hey Pete I wanna pull the trigger on a 2018 but I called customer support and they were no help. Nothing online is any help either. Just need a yes or no. So have you been flat towing your crosstrex yet? If so no problems correct? Of course the manual transmission is of course the only option.

[@mikecrain8985]

You guys have to better research. You can tow a fiesta which is 2,500lbs no need for a braking system and it is an automatic.

[@Pagosa]

Fiesta has been retired and I would never recommend towing a vehicle without a braking system. Many states require no matter the weight and the liability to do so would be a rather glib approach to living life at its best.

[@ereznir2001]

I am watching this video. Intuitively I don't feel that these calcs are right. Especially I don't see how the speaker is keeping the suggested 10-20% margin on the weights as are highly recommended in many RV forums. I'm going back to my Excel and drawing board and will do the math. If I see the speaker is right, I will post an apology but if not, or I have questions I will post these too.

[@Pagosa]

Which calculations are in question? Each RV / tow vehicle will have a unique max weight, so it’s all in how you calculate from OCCC and GCVWR. Pretty simple math if you know those two numbers.

[@markfleming11]

Is the manual transmission is required for a tow car

[@Pagosa]

Just on some models like the Crosstrek. Many can be flat towed automatic

[@maryleewalden3175]

Hi! I tow my horse and trailer behind my LTV Free Spirit SS. Who needs a car when you have a horse???!!!

[@Pagosa]

that's awesome!

[@alisont.6940]

Wish this would get to the point a lot faster.

[@Pagosa]

My wife says the same thing

[@brianaustin1328]

96 pounds. This is the weight of the back seat of the two-door Wrangler.

[@Pagosa]

Awesome, thanks!

[@Lolaandcassidyadventures]

Is tow an old vw bug stick shift no worries.:)

[@Pagosa]

That sounds awesome

[@jrdifferent]

I enjoy your content, my advice would be to cut out the over explaining. I end up running away because it’s just too exhausting. Being more concise would be more enjoyable thank you

[@Pagosa]

Man, I just enjoy making these, and that’s the way I do them, have some comments that I don’t give enough info. Appreciate the feedback, but this is just a hobby and take what you want from them and throw the rest away. Cheers!

[@pault1964]

The fuel tank in the vehicle you are towing

[@Pagosa]

👍

[@somethingbeautiful2212]

My 2010 Toyota Prius only weighs 3,043 lbs.

[@Pagosa]

I don't believe you can tow four down. You would need to use a dolly, so it's doable.

[@somethingbeautiful2212]

@@Pagosa Ah… I’m such a rookie 😏 Cheers:)

[@stevenkukene9970]

Being a former Jeep Wrangler owner (2 door Sahara) and Jeep Dealership Service Manager I would lean more towards the Subaru. Wranglers are known to have water leaks, especially with the hard top version with the freedom panels (looks like a t-top). If you don’t mind paying the high price for a Wrangler and riding around in a puddle of water you will be fine. We were trained to tell Customers that “Jeep Wrangler is the only production vehicle where you can remove the roof, doors and windshield in your own driveway. With so many seams and moving parts, water leaks are expected which is why there are drain plugs in the floor”. “Expect your Wrangler to be water resistant NOT water proof”. Let the buyer beware.

[@Pagosa]

Great info. Especially for those in the NW with lots of rain. Appreciate the input!

[@kimheinicka6546]

We are looking at the LTV and want to Tow for sure. I currently Tow a 2006 Scion XB(the toaster) behind my class A. Great Tow car, 2550 lbs. I like the idea of the 2020 and newer AWD Escape or a 2014 or older Honda CRV AWD. The weight of the baseplate has to be added to the tow weight though correct? Great Video. Thank You.

[@Pagosa]

@@kimheinicka6546 You can't go wrong with an LTV. you do need to add the weight of the baseplate, tow bar and brake system, but it's pretty negligible in that weight category.

[@kimheinicka6546]

@@Pagosa I asked LTV for the OCCC weights and got back 1333 for the RL and 1363 for the FX. Those OCCC numbers include all of the options such as generator and level system. Does your 1550 lbs include those accessories? I get how you got to the 1550 lbs but with accessories we should be using the OCCC number to subtract the fuel and water weights correct? Tat could mean 217 pounds less. Thanks I enjoy your insight.

[@Pagosa]

@@kimheinicka6546 I got my OCCC from LTV using my VIN so they could give me the exact curb weight, which was 9,478. then subtract that from the GVWR to get your OCCC. Fuel, water, people etc will take away from that. Honestly the only way to be super accurate is to take it to a CAT scale and see what your LTV weighs. I'll be doing that soon and make sure to video the process. I want to know what my LTV weighs with the generator, the levelers and the basic stuff we leave in the coach at all times, like camp chairs, tools, etc. Then I can more accurately know. That's why I think the CrossTrek being the lightest is smart and the jeeps a bit on the dangerous side of the limit.

[@WellRoundedMBS]

can it tow a road king ?

[@Pagosa]

Sure, just can’t stop cuz it will fall over, lol.

[@carlostrejo3105]

😎

[@Pagosa]

👍

[@trumpwon8231]

Saw the Suberu in the title, guess not.

[@Pagosa]

The manual cross trek is a great toad for sure!

[@pault1964]

Wife drives car separately

[@Pagosa]

👍

[@gratefulRed69]

I'd go Subaru for the reliability aspect. Sure, not as "cool" as a Jeep....but there is no comparison in regards to mechanical reliability/quality. Jeeps are junk.

[@Pagosa]

I agree with that

[@Tnapvrvideo]

What Jeep did you own that brought you to this conclusion?

[@tonywayne4852]

Mazda CX3

[@Pagosa]

Interesting, is it flat towable?

[@tonywayne4852]

@@Pagosa not sure but the tribute is I know I have seen a cx3 behind a navion? may ahve to call a dealer

[@cassus4732]

Get E Bikes

[@Pagosa]

I generally take my mountain bike, an E bike might spoil me too much.

[@manuelmartineznusn]

First thing I leave behind to save weight is the fucking dog

[@Pagosa]

Sounds like you need a puppy in your life