Betrayal | Running the Game

[@adriaanadriaan123]

Matt you left your camera on, Matt, Matt. Your camera.

[@TheAmericanDragn]

*Matt gets up* CURSE YOUR SUDDEN, BUT INEVITABLE BETRAYAL!

[@ivanjames6745]

"This is a fine land, and we shall call it 'This Land'" "I say we call it 'Your Grave'." .... Everyone at work now thinks I'm crazy for quoting an entire scene from Firefly... Best show ever.

[@cannonfire0187]

Critical Role?

[@trentdavis60]

@@cannonfire0187 Firefly

[@ivanjames6745]

@@cannonfire0187 Firefly is a TV show that only ran for 1 season, became a cult classic. Loyal fan of the series call themselves Browncoats, after the Independence army (their uniforms were brown) in the Unification war against the totalitarian Alliance. Quoted above are lines from the show.

[@paulsmart4672]

@@ivanjames6745 I heard that there were several options for Wash scenes that actors auditioning for Wash could choose from. Alan Tudyk was the only person to choose that scene.

[@werekid]

I was so ready to listen to Matt whistle for 9 minutes

[@KreativAce]

We got cheated out of quality content

[@anotherone5235]

It was the ultimate betrayal.

[@TabletopBlacksmith]

Lol same

[@Ephsy]

@@anotherone5235 We're in the Endgame now.

[@patrickmbahi5177]

As he walked away from screen I glared with a makayla Maroni is not impressed look lol

[@jaredatkinson1071]

I like they new shorter format under 40 seconds

[@McNottagoose]

Keep watching, it's a lot longer. Like almost 10 minutes

[@johnnyc.3849]

Zack 1. That comment is a year old. 2. r/woooosh

[@McNottagoose]

@@Dehalove maybe you should watch it - matt didn't make any jokes.

[@lukecroston9577]

Come on zach, take the whoosh and leave

[@angelalewis3645]

😂

[@JirkaKunst]

"Go forth and betray your friends!" -- Matt Colville, 2019

[@tearstoneactual9773]

"Nothing personal. It's just business." - Arkhan the Cruel

[@dubbingsync]

One of the best betrayals I’ve seen in anything. Because I had no idea it was going to happen. Though when I read Arkhan was an “Oathbreaker Paladin” it made sense.

[@TheK3vin]

*stands off screen for a full 30 seconds* "But nobody likes a long preamble!"

[@CritCrab]

I thought the video was about Matt colville betraying us by whistling instead of talking, now I feel betrayed that he stopped.

[@chrisppx]

That would’ve been hilarious lmao. Also loving the vids bro

[@LouDaTrojan]

The biggest betrayal was when my party was poking around the ruins of an old cave my DM made us roll initiative. An ancient red dragon had woken up and blocked our exit. We were only level 3.

[@auroralee]

On nom nom... One player in my party REALLY wanted to have a tragic betrayal, but was so pure Lawful Good that there's no way his Loxodon cleric would do that. He actually came up with something genius, having his character sacrifice himself to heroically save the party, only to return as a Lich, enslaved by the final boss. I got to narrate his fantastic death scene, but I can't wait for him to fight on MY side in the final battle as a zombie elephant.

[@ilcuzzo12]

LOL

[@theophrastusbombastus1359]

That's not so much "betrayal" but more kinda "DM Dickotry" imo

[@LouDaTrojan]

@@theophrastusbombastus1359 he promised us there would be treasure there, but there was only death. death and suffering

[@kmcd6140]

Well, if it just woke up, it probably wanted an update on the local news/history. Before breakfast, that is.

[@timothyheimbach3260]

I really thought Lars or Robby or someone was going to come finish the video

[@urdaanglospey6666]

I was expecting someone to run the camera and "kill" Matt . . .

[@magicprime5135]

I want to see Anna do a video on taking effective notes as a player.

[@no_nameyouknow]

I was hoping for evil Matt. Like Colville the Betrayer or something.

[@alexiavya722]

Timothy Heimbach that would be interesting

[@thehulkster9434]

1 - An unplanned betrayal is likely to be a problem. If you have a player who decides mid-session that they want to side with the villain, that might be a good place to at least pause the session and have a conversation. 2 - The player betraying the party should understand that it means the end of their character as a PC. Trying to fold someone back in after they betrayed the party doesn't work well unless you have a group that is really into espionage and double dealing, or have a very good reason why they should set their differences aside. 3 - The party should still have a reasonable chance at winning, even with the betrayal (you probably want to weight things even more in their favor with betrayal, because another player causing a tpk through betrayal is probably going to be much, much worse than a tpk because of bad rolls or bad decisions).

[@nickwilliams8302]

Agreed. Particularly with #2.

[@oz_jones]

Yeah, my character would kill on sight if he was betrayed. He doesn't suffer traitors, because loose lips sink ships.

[@Kevlar-78]

"You're still here ? Go home... Running the game is over ... Shoo!"

[@danrope6160]

Unspotted Doritos stained-fingers browsing through the Player Handbook is the worst betrayal of them all.

[@TransilvanianHunger1334]

LMFAOOO

[@MrTombombodil]

I think one important part of having a betrayal not leave a bad taste in someone's mouth, is make it so that the betrayer is pursuing a goal that isn't mutually exclusive with the party's goal, basically they betray the party to get what they want (money or some information or something else) and so they pursue that goal in the final set piece instead of helping the party do whatever they're trying to do, and so the result of betrayal is that they're down a party member, and maybe that party member is doing some things that interfere with what they're trying to do but both the betrayer and a party can still technically succeed

[@Tresquall]

Matt used a phrase here: "distinctly un-fun." I have been betrayed in a D&D campaign, and yes, it wasn't fun. In fact, it was infuriating. It changed my mood during the game, and for the rest of the night. But it was *profound*. It was extremely memorable. In fact, it was memorable because the game moved me so much. I think these experiences are all valid and worthwhile... Depending on the players at the table, of course! You all know your tables better than anyone else - I just wanted to give my own insight :D

[@DimitriosDenton]

Reminds me of an article by Warren Spector (of Deus Ex fame) ""Fun" is a Four-Letter Word "

[@fabledredeyes]

Foreshadowing is what makes this kind of stuff work, if at all. Surprises are welcome when they're good. Bad surprises need buildup. Also "degenerate play" Stealing this term.

[@gnarthdarkanen7464]

Jeez... all you'd have to do is come by my Table... a room fuller of degenerates has never existed. ...even on Mos Eisley. ;o)

[@arbe7179]

Agreed. A complete failure on behalf of the DM. A deliberate disrespect for the time investment of the players.

[@bonzobuttjr5548]

I saw you in person today but I was too scared to interrupt your conversation I just wanted to say hi and I love your content it’s been so inspirational for me!! I am literally still vibrating from the excitement of seeing you and hearing your voice in person.

[@seanhillman1016]

Another piece of advice: if you find that one player in your group constantly wants to betray the party, steer away from using that player or their character. Some players live in that mode and while they may be good players, it gets old quick watching them stab the party in the back. For practical reasons as well I would avoid it, ie the other players will always expect that character of betraying them. In addition some RPGs, Cyberpunk and Shadowrun for instance, have a higher chance for players to sell one another out. Different paradigm than D&D, but still take the video's advice and be careful when you do it.

[@nickwilliams8302]

I've actually heard the term "Shadowrun Effect" used to describe the point in a betrayal-overload game where the players work out that it's way less trouble and way more profitable to just shoot Mr. Johnson in the face and sell his organs on the black market than it is to take the job.

[@seanhillman1016]

@@nickwilliams8302 Yeah I mean, that is true but unless they are very smart, that will only work once. In theory.

[@nickwilliams8302]

@@seanhillman1016 The point is - since Shadowrun is pretty much _about_ a group of ne'er-do-wells accepting jobs from the "Mr Johnson's" of their world - once you reach that point, you can't really play Shadowrun any more. Betrayal overload destroys the basic premise of the game. You need the players to actually _accept_ the jobs that are offered or there is no game. Betrayal works only when it's used sparingly. It needs a background of some kind of trust in order to have impact. A good analogy might be the Batcave. Some of the most awesome Batman stories ever have been when his sanctum has been invaded by his enemies. But these stories are awesome precisely because the Batcave is _normally_ an inviolable sanctuary.

[@CABerlitz]

Willing conspirator is such an ominous title... Great spirit for the video as well

[@donc.7465]

This video couldn't have come at a better time. One of the characters in my campaign was killed in our last session. I (the DM) was very disappointed it happened because I liked the character's backstory and had worked with the player to come up with a cool espionage angle that we were both really enjoying up to this point. After going through the stages of grief with this character death, we both (independently) started thinking about his next character, and had a meeting about it a week later. It turns out we were both interested in his new character being immersed in the spy story some way. The player had some excellent ideas that he wanted to run by me, and then I suggested the possibility that his new character could be a double agent, a sleeper, only to be revealed much later in the campaign and betray the party at some critical point. The way his eyes lit up I could tell he was VERY excited/intrigued by this idea. I did suggest that it would likely mean the end of his character at that point, but the payoff might be epic. He's thinking about it. Thank you Matt for the words of caution and advice on trying to make sure that this is epic without tearing apart the group and ruining the whole campaign.

[@ijimedia]

last time I was this early the commander was still alive

[@vitsavicky]

Which one?

[@buckhunt6832]

:((

[@oz_jones]

@@vitsavicky Oof.

[@cassandralynn1277]

As someone who have had players surrender to enemies on multiple occassions, I firmly agree with Matt's "never say never" approach here. Also once ran a four-year long Deadlands campaign, which had one of the player's be revealed to secretly be the big bad three years in, and it was a great twist for everyone involved. It helped that the general premise was less "party of misfit heroes on a quest" and more "HBO's Deadwood meets Gothic Horror", so players were already expecting to have diverse interests and ambitions that didn't necessarily always line up with each other even if they were broadly in concert most of the time.

[@shonaitenketsu7629]

HA! The running the game humor is back in full force! Excellent Covillan advice.

[@CynUnion-ji9uj]

I had an unexpected betrayal and it worked really well. In a Star Wars game the party had been working for Rednax the Hutt, a crimelord and Rebel Sympathiser. One player was a Rebel Spy and another was an imperial spy. The Imperial Spy had apparently conviced two of the unaligned players to join the Empire. So when The Empire kicked in the door the Rebel Spy tried to save the party, only to be betrayed(but they escaped) and even I, the GM, was like "Whaaaaat," but in a good way. So now there's two concurrent stories about the Rebel Agents and Imperial-Employed mercs trying to defeat the other. When the betrayal happened i decided that this session would be the end of this Campaign Episode. So now I'm simply trying to figure out how to get the game off the ground now that there are 2 distinct groups.

[@BklynConan]

Dammit Matt, started watching this in my office and broke out in laughter when you just walked off whistling.

[@ixelhaine]

In a slight subversion of the "betray the party" trope, I once wiped out my entire party because they wanted to steal from a charity I had donated to. Luckily for my party my weapon had Merciful as one of its enhancements, (late game, 18 - 20 level characters) so it didn't deal lethal damage and everybody woke up in jail the next day. (I was a Paladin. This happened in 3.5e)

[@hednok]

+50 points for whistling the tmnt NES theme song, that tune pops in my head every now and then and makes me happy!

[@stevenneiman9789]

I actually have something of a counterexample, but in this case it might have just been unusual that the players were such good sports about it. My favorite campaign finale of all time was in a Vampire the Masquerade game, and it involved a player betraying the party, playing us like a fiddle for several sessions and the driving us out of San Francisco while he installed his sire as Prince. I think a big part of it was that the whole thing felt like the player in question had earned it, both in character and out. The whole time we thought he had his character blood bonded and that the situation was under control, but in reality that was all a clever deception that be believed without question because he outwitted us. The very last scene of the entire year-plus campaign was the guy the rest of us had been trying to put in charge chained to a rooftop, and the guy that this traitor PC installed into power standing over him and gloating as the sun was about to rise. And the storyteller was playing "Here comes the sun" by the Beatles. I will never hear that song again without laughing to myself and thinking of how awesome it was.

[@forsakentale]

I 100% understand the wizard player. Because in the end, with the fragmentation of the party, the wizard was betrayed by the whole party (for not helping and not sticking by him), not just the fighter character. As a DM I also talk to the "to be betrayed" players, especifically to avoid that sort of messy feeling. I prefer to prioritize everyone's relationship and avoid hurt feeling bleeding than the whole "SURPRISE!!!! YOU HAVE A KNIFE ON YOUR BACK!"

[@minelegend6557]

One of my players just asked about being a traitor the other day while planning for a campaign next semester. Thanks for the perfect timing.

[@auroralee]

The best (or worst) betrayal is from the person you least expect it from.

[@ebmusicman84]

One additional piece of advice I would give is that the moment the PC's betrayal becomes known to at least one other PC the betrayer should become an NPC under the DM's control.

[@minelegend6557]

@@ebmusicman84 I've been talking to the player about how he wants to handle the betrayal, swapping control of the character over to me, or if he wants a redemption arc where he debates which side to be on.

[@Liamneedham29]

In a dnd-like game I play with my friends, we have single session campaigns with an overarching goal to complete (usually escape from war). But we also often have secret goals assigned to each player, some good and some bad. The good are usually difficult, bonus achievement style missions (for example, one was to destroy a missile silo, not necessary to win, but helpful). The bad can encompass those betrayals (for example, a KGB operative working as a double agent in the CIA). One time we even had two teams, with codewords to identify ourselves with, but so other players couldnt tell which team you were on, the codewords had to be discretely inserted into conversation and hope that your teammate wasnt so drunk that they missed it. It always worked, because we knew from the outset that there were secret missions and the capacity (infact likelihood) that they involved betrayal. You either complete the secret mission or not, and if your goals ran contrary to the parties, you had to choose your allegiences. It also helped that our games were single session and characters were largely spontaneous, so there was little investment. When you know what kind of game your agreeing to, you will enjoy it.

[@Apollo9898LP]

i really wanted the video to be over at like 20 secs in and it just be 9 minutes of nothing on camera

[@FalkaRiannon]

One of my DMs tried a betrayal plot with me after killing off my character with an unwinnable scenario. He offered me to keep my character if I would work as an infiltrator to the party. Needless to say I was not delighted and made a new character. In conclusion: if you want to bring in a betrayal don't force it on your players. Also make sure that you know your players. Not every player likes betrayals and if you force it on them they might resent you and even leave your game.

[@nickwilliams8302]

There's a certain point where you've just got to ask yourself, "Is my DM just a wangrod?" You've got to be really sure that everyone will be cool with an intra-party betrayal and still be able to game together productively.

[@thatoneguy2057]

In the film Secrets of Blackmoor this style of play was very much part of the creation of D&D. They had this idea that each character has their own agenda. Dave Arneson described it using a story about how two generals in the civil war were business partners before the war. They fought as generals on opposite sides and both gave orders not to harm "their" railroad. After the war they became business partners again on their railroad. The railroad and the business superseded the war. Arnesons point being they started with war games, found that some motives superseded war and thats where character creation came from which later became characters in D&D. Which creates an interesting question for the players. Does their character had a goal that would supersede the ultimate goals of the party? I wonder if going into a campaign having asked that question would change the way the players play and the way players view the betrayals from fellow players.

[@Bluecho4]

To quote Alucard, from Hellsing Ultimate: "Traitors die ignominious deaths. Always."

[@dyykaacovers]

The first minute is the type of humour i watch these videos for

[@tonyb9290]

My DM's legacy/homebrew campaign setting had a player that people didn't like playing with because his characters always were betrayers, and often would be the demise of the party and a BBEG for many others after.

[@shaushaged9659]

My players are too kind for this to work on. They basically took a goblin as their kidnapped child - refused to let him leave them, and then forgave him when he ended up betraying them as Goblins do. This Goblin - Kredduk - they even made the Lord of the castle they took.

[@WraithMagus]

At the start of my current game, a fairly new player who was playing a warlock came over to me like an hour before we were going to start (after like a week and a half of prep and "session zero"), and said something like, "Hey, why don't we make it so none of the other characters knows my character is a warlock?" This basically just gave me a headache, and forced me to try to come up with the gentlest way to pull him back down from this because... 1. The players already knew his character's class. That means this basically amounts to not this player/character having something to act out (other than just not using their own best abilities in combat for as long as they wanted the "ruse" to continue), but demanding of the other players that they carry a burden of acting for the benefit of this one player... when there were two other completely new players who really were having trouble with this whole role-playing concept already. 2. The other characters have basically no reason to care - in spite of multiple attempts on my part, none of the players made their characters have any shared backstory elements (even though they easily could have, considering similar backstories), and most of the characters are on the wrong side of the law so I threw them together as an expendable team on a dangerous mission where they would obtain a pardon from the government if they succeeded. In short, they had no trust to break, and they were all basically Flat Earth Atheists who hated the gods (they're newish players carrying their own real-world atheism over), so nobody would care if the warlock revealed a compact with a not-evil-not-holy creature (which was a moot point, because the character was a genasi, anyway, so it was already in her bloodline, anyway). 3. A merging of the above two points, it basically only asked the other players to pretend not to notice the obvious until some arbitrary point where they were told to notice the obvious (it's pretty hard to excuse lacking specific known class features of something like a wizard for any significant period of time... especially when they didn't even take a fake spellbook with them), and again, this was the kind of thing that obviously would resolve with the players pretending to be grumpy about a breach of nonexistent trust in the first place, and then pretend it violated religious principles they didn't have. It wouldn't in any real sense add to in-game drama, and would just drag down the other players, forcing THEM to act in the way that this one player wanted them to act, as opposed to the way their characters would naturally act. Which is to say, if you're going to use betrayal or something like that, make sure it, you know, serves some purpose other than just spit-balling random complication into the mix without thinking at all about how it might actually play out in-game. (I should also note this was someone who was a pretty new player, and dropped out really early because they were extremely caught up in their own character's backstory, but was absolutely not a team player and just wouldn't try to consider how their character fit into the world or the party or the intentions of the other players, and additionally was one of those types that tried to keep their backstory secret from me as the DM, so that their actions were just seemingly bizarre and their motivations unintelligible to everyone else playing.)

[@nickwilliams8302]

Everything you just said is correct. Bouncing off point #3, I think this is why I'm so deeply indifferent to certain forms of "metagaming". It's just not fun to pretend to not know something you know until someone says it's okay to know what you know. Regarding your dropout, it's unfortunately pretty common for people to not grasp that they're not supposed to be "telling a story" at the table. There's a story, sure, and it's important, but that story emerges organically from the interaction of the PCs with the DM's plot and setting. And I just facepalmed at the idea of a player totally caught up in their PC's backstory, while simultaneously trying to keep it a secret. Just ... _what?_ Just go and write your fanfic and let the rest of us play (which I suppose is what he did). If you aren't going to let your backstory become part of the game, don't be surprised when it's _not part of the game._ You might like this article (or at least understand where the writer is coming from): theangrygm.com/dear-players-a-better-way/

[@WraithMagus]

@@nickwilliams8302 To be fair, I'm not sure how much the player was keeping their backstory secret on purpose, and how much it was just *TERRIBLE* communication skills and general emotional instability. In this game, I had/have a couple of players that are great at role-playing and just carry the conversations and dictate what the party does outside combat (much to their chagrin, since they tried to play an anti-social loner and the replacement player created a religious zealot who the player wanted to be shouted down only to find they were party leaders by default), but most of the players have just been much too difficult to get to do anything but take turns during combat. I don't really begrudge the players for whom this is their first time playing a non-computer game D&D just trying to play like a computer game D&D, since they're learning. The player I'm talking about, though, has at least enough knowledge to want to play a Raven Queen warlock in a custom setting that doesn't have a Raven Queen (when I tried going through some suggestions of what could stand in for this, he got angry and said I was trying to "play his character" by making a non-Raven Queen patron), and then went about making a fairly angsty backstory before filling out the character sheet with just the absolute default "roll d6 for personality traits/bonds/flaw/ideals" nonsense. (I initially liked that 5e basically makes it a rule to have those things on your character sheet, but I absolutely loathe how it's basically impossible to get most players to use anything other than the SUGGESTIONS of GENERIC traits to the point that I wished they just left a big blank spot on your character sheet with "backstory" like previous editions.) This character is an escaped slave that murdered her master and ran away, and her bonds are her fellow slaves (or "troupe" because he used Entertainer background), which didn't help her or go with her, and the player won't give me any information about who these people are even when I say that they don't really qualify as bonds if there's basically nothing for me to work with in bringing them into the story. Trying to get this guy to put down anything about his character that could be used in play was like pulling teeth. Then, after the first session, when I was mentioning to him how it was odd how angry his character had gotten (including other players noting it was odd at the table) over the 10 gold pay for the trivial job the PCs started the game doing to get them into the starting town, he said he'd had to act that way because his character doesn't know the value of money... somehow... because up until basically yesterday, apparently, she had been a slave, and she was acting out of a total lack of knowledge of what money is. This was not anything in the backstory written for this character, nor had he ever mentioned it during play. In fact, I'm half convinced it was made up after the game as a retroactive rationalization for the character's behavior after everyone thought the character was behaving strangely. Everything I did with this player was him giving me the barest, most generic stuff possible, and when I tried probing it, or giving suggestions of ways to add details like maybe DESCRIBING even the most basic facts (like the number of them) of the most important people in this character's life, he would get angry because those suggestions were trying to "rewrite" some part of some apparently massive hidden backstory he refused to share with me. The player just kept getting offended when I started trying to talk to him about communicating what kind of character he was trying to play to me so I understand the character's goals and make content that fits that character and their place in the world, and he basically just shut off all communications from then on.

[@nickwilliams8302]

@@WraithMagus Oh, Jesus. I would have drawn the line when he interpreted, "There is no Raven Queen in my setting." as "playing his character." Huge red flag. Just to rub it in, my current group of players is _awesome._ :) But read the article, I think you'll like it.

[@altasilvapuer]

HOLY INHUMANLY-HIGH FIDELITY, BATMAN!! Your videos always have good resolution & fidelity, but this one is different, somehow. I don't know if it's just a better connection on my end or better compression on yours, but I'm 0:11 in and I feel like I could reach in my screen and poke you with a stick. Not that I would, of course, but I could. Actually, if I'm being honest, I probably would. I'm a ridiculous goofball like that. 'Sides: Being able to poke you with a stick means I'd also be able to shake your hand, and that'd be swell. Mad props to you and the team!

[@altasilvapuer]

Also, I loved the beginning of the video with the fake-out. Nice touch!

[@stevenneiman1554]

Funnily enough, while this is definitely a perfectly functional way to do it, my single fondest memory as a player of TTRPGs was actually a betrayal in a Vampire the Masquerade game that worked completely differently. The player in question did it of his own initiative, and he actually won because he genuinely outsmarted the rest of us, and despite knowing out goals didn't align he convinced us that we had outplayed him and he was no longer a threat. Ran the rest of us out of San Francisco and installed his sire as ruler of the vampires of San Francisco. It worked for several reasons: It was the finale, so we weren't losing more play, it was telegraphed, and it was 100% earned. The player was not given an unfair edge by the GM, he just played us all for fools and also made an absolute monster mechanically speaking who could probably take on the whole rest of the coterie in a fair fight. That said, the other time I've seen betrayal used to positive effect was basically this recipe exactly, and it ended in a comical, slightly anticlimactic fight where the party was challenged by the people the traitor was working with but the traitor himself went down in a single roll. Though after that I actually had to promise my group I was never going to run another betrayal in that system, because the system does not function well with players distrusting each other in character.

[@chubbs373]

Milked that joke for far too long and I am so happy.

[@billbenedict4664]

Good advice, thanks Matt! I've got a party with brewing internal tension that has already been betrayed by an NPC and there's bound to be more trouble to come. You've given me some insight on how to keep the game from breaking down into that degenerate play I'm trying desperately to avoid while still letting the players have their fun.

[@acrylicchemist1432]

I had a player get captured by dopplegangers and be replaced by one of the dopplegangers. Perfect betrayel when the player stabbed a character in the back and fled; the party chased the doppleganger, rescued the player, and everyone had a blast. The key to this story is that it wasn't a direct player betrayel, so it helps avoid unhappy players

[@GeneralAvispa]

I really like this alternative to a player based betrayal. My next campaign is going to heavily involve aberrations so I have been thinking of doing this kind of betrayal

[@williamdegrey]

I've pulled this off. In another fantasy rpg, two players were playing brothers. One brother was actually brainwashed by the bbeg, but no one ever suspected until the end of the campaign and it worked soo good. it all ended very cinematically in a fight between brothers and the "good" brother managed to beat the "evil" one and with an awesome speech plunged his dagger in his brother's chest. It was awesome for everyone!

[@MrRex977]

Matt, i run games from '92 and my english was did not exist (still not good, coz' i learn only from movies, games and ofc rpg games) back in those times. I find your channel only recently and like to watch, because there is lots of interesting and usefull ideas... also fun to watch. Doodly doo. Peace. Keep up the good "work" and have fun! Out :) Greets from Hungary!

[@Areyallok42]

It could have been awesome if the fighter had a clash of conscience and tried to steer the party (or at least his friend) away before reaching their goal. Perhaps later threatening with violence when that doesn't work and get an epic inevitable showdown going between the two friends (cue: 'you were my brother, Anakin').

[@kevincullen6627]

EVERYBODY BETRAY ME, IM FEEDUP WIt This World

[@viperblitz11]

There's actually a really comedic betrayal going on in my group. and it was only last session. In our homebrew setting, there's a very small possibility that every time someone in the world raises an undead, it regains the sentience and abilities of who they were in life. And unlike normal undead, they're freed from their master if they're killed rather than dropping to the floor or collapsing to a pile of bone. This allows for "Sentient Undead" as a playable race, with various mechanical strengths in exchange for predictable risks when roleplaying around NPCs. We're currently playing an evil party. One character is a necromancer, and two players are sentient skeletons with a shared backstory (one was a powerful mage, the other was an assassin who killed him ten years ago then stepped in a trap on the way out). But the skeletons are still her slaves, they haven't been freed yet. So immediately after she raised them, they waited until she was out of earshot before hatching a scheme to assassinate her and free themselves. This was all roleplayed at the table, with the necromancer player still there and everything. It was great. But here's the kicker. Undead are incapable of harming their master. Even if they lay a trap, some unconscious error will force it to fail and backfire. So we have to wait and see the Tom and Jerry antics they'll be getting up to in the future.

[@glorfendell2967]

Excellent advice. I've been the betrayer and left the party pretty pissed. I'm also about to venture into possible betrayal in the campaign I'm running now. Great timing on this.

[@mysporelo]

Oh dude... I love hearing you so much. I would watch every video you made, again, and probably would do. You speak so much wisdom of DnD and life in some videos that makes me want to hear a 24 hour Livestream of you talking about everything you came in your mind. I was just thinking in having a betrayer player soon and this video is gonna help a lot. The important about the betrayal is the reveal and the drama, not who wins or whoever's massacre who. Really good thought that hasn't crossed my mind in all this time. Your experiences are notable in so many senses it's almost scary hahahah. Wish you the best of luck in your projects, waiting for the next video since now!

[@andersonneil2293]

I had a party betrayal that was zero sum that went well, but i did it during a one shot. It was very fun and everyone had a good time, also technically everyone lost.

[@johanskofteby2172]

My character was a dragonborn paladin who got murdered by an intellect devourer... In session 2... So I played an intellect devourer for 8 or so sessions before the party found out and the bard (played by my fiance) turned an entire tavern crowd into killing him. It was glorious.

[@ikaemos]

I played through a scenario in which TPK-causing betrayal _did_ work - it was the end of a campaign, and the group had agreed that the characters would be "done" after this adventure; the GM left it ambiguous whether they'd retire, but she implied heavily that our odds were... _poor._ We were engaging in something dangerous and forbidden, so, "party wipe by way of ominous ending cinematic that sets up the 2nd arc of the campaign, which takes place years later," was very much on the table, and everybody knew it. I was the turncoat, after being the nominal leader of the group, but chickening out of the quest at the last second and deciding that it was safer to become the main villain's Renfield. It went swimmingly, and really put extra dramatic weight to the final (doomed) confrontation with the main baddie. It gave the players a sub-goal in the final battle ("We probably won't make it... but we _might_ kill the traitor first!"), it made everyone genuinely invested and angry in a good way, and made for a nice capst- uh, tombstone for the campaign. I should note, a critical ingredient of the secret sauce was the fact that the party was... well, villainous (although not evil). We were competing for an ancient reality-controlling artifact with a figure akin to Ajax, with the intent to use it to rule the world. Our demise not only served as an establishing scene for the main villain of the 2nd half of the campaign (single-handedly mopping the floor with a 12th-level party tends to do that), but also served as a kind of comeuppance. Our characters really had it coming. So, basically, betrayal is a RP nuke - deploy it with utmost care, and only when it absolutely fits the themes you were going for. And, although you might not want to warn the players that it's about to happen (that spoils the surprise), hint that things are going sideways and let them brace.

[@perrycarters3113]

Had a betrayal in my most recent session. Party was a bunch of slaves forced to serve a merchant who had them fulfil mercenary contracts for him. One such contract was to fight in an arena. After defeating a mounted Wight and his small zombie horde, the Arena's proprietor went to present the party with their prize: An ornate ring of darkened metal, with a black diamond. As soon as the ring was presented, it shot out of his hands. Our Gunslinger managed to catch the ring, but failed the Str check to stand his ground as the ring pulled against his palm, dragging him towards the Wight's now outstretched hand. Our Mystic, unsure of what would happen once the ring got to the Wight, decided to use 'Psychic Hammer' to knock the Gunslinger aside to keep him clear of whatever was about to happen before dashing between the prone Gunslinger and the Wight. The ring went onto the Wight's finger; it reanimated and underwent a transformation, becoming larger and with twisted, shadowy armor. It stood and shattered the arena roof with a blast of magic. As the crowd fled the stands, the Wight's possessed form revealed that a fragment of a Lich's soul survived within the ring, waiting for an undead host to reveal itself. It then offered the party power; it conjured up another ring, and told them to take it and become a vessel for his power, whilst maintaining their will for as long as they lived. The table went silent as I looked around at each of them, my own hand outstretched as if I myself was offering this ring. Our Half-Orc Warlord was stone-faced, and I could see his loyalty would not waver from his friends. The Druid seemed aghast at this turn of events. The Monk seemed uncertain of what to do; her monastic training forbade her from pre-emptive attacks. The Gunslinger seemed concerned at his proximity to the Lich-possessed Wight, and he announced that his character slowly stood, still gripping his pistol. The Mystic looked me in the eyes and said "I use Psychic Hammer on the Gunslinger, and I take the ring." An intense battle followed. The Gunslinger stood again and, stunned at this betrayal by his only friend in the group, used his magical item to turn luck on his side before taking two back-to-back critical shots on the Mystic, downing him but not killing him. The Druid summoned a horde of Wolves before herself taking the form of a bear and charging the Lich. The Monk got in close as well, as did our Warlord. The Lich-possessed Wight fought them back for a time, summoning some empowered zombies to aid him, but eventually saw the tide turned against him. Looking at the prone form of the Mystic-now sworn to serve him and wearing a ring that would eventually corrupt his will-and decided that the Mystic was far more valuable than his own undead form. Using a special ability I had given him to use his zombies and his own health to power higher-level spells than this form had access to, he sacrificed much of his remaining power as well as all of his remaining zombies to heal the Mystic, and then teleported him away using a weaker version of Word of Recall. He was summarily defeated by the party, but the Mystic is now a potential future villain with both psionic abilities and necromantic powers. tl;dr our Mystic might end up being the BBEG

[@eveescastle5866]

I distinctly remember a moment in a campaign I was playing in where I took an unexpected opportunity to make a break at my goals. My character was a half elf time wizard who was a fugitive on the run from this cult she was indoctrinated into at a young age, anywho along the way she came across this demigod who wanted to see a bit of mischief and gave her partial information and expected her to figure out the rest of the story, well, along the way the party had come across this demon who was possessing this little girl who they grew close to and in a sudden moment made a deal with the demon to free them from their prison in exchange for knowledge. At that point it became the party Versus me and it led to an interesting roleplay moment where they learned she didn't care what happened so long as she got her answers, proving she was a bit of a loose cannon. Unfortunately that campaign ended prematurely and I never got to see the end of that, but it was a fun moment for everyone.

[@Belgand]

It's one of the reasons why in Star Wars, Lando works. He's still sympathetic because he was forced into an unwinnable situation that he's trying to make the best of. His betrayal also only creates a challenge, not a fracturing of the party or a total defeat. "We found the MacGuffin but I had to give it to the villain to ransom my daughter" is a solid betrayal for those reasons. The character is sympathetic, they remain aligned with the party, and the MacGuffin is still there to be won back. The tension ratchets up because now the villain can go into the final phase of their scheme.

[@rutger4272]

The art for all the survey monsters is so fucking rad!

[@dragonknight196]

The times that betrayal has been done in my game resulted in a tpk. Every. Single. Time. A traitor will always be able to achieve that if they are clever enough and build correctly. Ends up making a lot of people mad/not have fun.

[@Stompa95]

Not necessarily a betrayal game, but my mate is running a similar concept only the betrayal at the end is apparently any evil aligned members of the party and their respective allies battling it out for the evil throne. At least 2 of us are evil and and the other 2 are leaning to the evil side of neutral so I’m looking forward to a potential battle Royale!

[@tap5445]

Matt i love your longer videos. They have so much information in them and they are extremly entertaining to listen to. The shorter ca. under 10 Minutes videos are also a lot of fun but please know that I (and probably many others) dont care about how long your videos are because I like listening to you.

[@ZlashQu]

This video is so high res that you can spot and be distracted by the rogue moustache hair by Matt's nose on his right side.

[@dylanhaight8645]

I once DM'd a campaign where a village of humans had been having troubles with a tribe of Gnolls. Both believed they were entitled to the land they were on. The PC's went decided for diplomacy before violence and went to negotiate with the Gnolls. During the talks the party's Druid decided the Gnolls made more sense and had a better claim to the territory as they were the natives of that land long before the humans settled it and did less the change the environment. (i.e. farming, roads, etc...) A fight started and the Druid turned against the party to fight for the Gnolls. Ultimately, he was killed in a one-on-one magic fight with the party's Wizard. It was interesting, everyone had fun and the Druid was so proud he didn't mind rolling another character. Moral of the story, the betrayer needs a believable motive and a chill player.

[@nemamiah7832]

Dark Heresy game. Premise for my character: I was an Inquisition agent in the Slaaneshi cult. Something recently happened and only three cultists had survived, losing most of their recent memories. All three - player characters. So we did cult things, reestablished connections, yada-yada. In the process, I start to realize that other cultists are TOO Inquisition agents, but we keep silent, because TRUST NOONE. So in the end, we are sitting at the dining table with a Big Bad and he says, that one of us is agent of Inquisition. And that he knows we had figured it out too. DM planned that this will be the moment we open up and kill the Big Bad. Instead me and another player looked at each other, nodded and butchered the third character, proving our "loyalty" to the Big Bad. I think, our DM had a little mental breakdown at that point. Also, we made "party surrenders" work in another Dark Heresy game. In the Boss Fight. In the finale of the campaign. I'm really proud of that decision, because if not surrendering, then there'd be no second campaign. Just a TPK

[@oz_jones]

I'm both laughing and saddened with that first tale. P.s. Papa Nurgle is better anyway

[@fantell]

A variant of this is the unwitting betrayal. Bbeg in my last campaign had the wizard of the party under his thumb, and even the wizard didnt know. The player was unaware that his was programmed to report in every other week as a spy using a combination of geas, modify memory, and detect thoughts. If this had continued until the end of the game it would have absolutely resulted in the bbeg winning, and easily. Thankfully there was a scene where he was discussing with another player upcoming plans and revealed a piece of information he as a player thought to be true but was an implanted memory, and the other player just looked at him like, 'what are you talking about?' It took almost two years of playing this way to finally engineer asituation where it could finally be revealed and it blew their minds. What ididn't expect was the player in question to turn the tables on the bbeg and instead of cleansing himself of these magics, concocted aplan with the other party member where he removed his own memory of the event where he figured it out and used himself as a double agent. For the next six months the bbeg thought he had them all figured out as they finally started moving against him while he was none the wiser.

[@elbilos1]

Someone remembers in which episode Coleville talked about the game where a Slaad in disguise as an old character infiltrated the party? I think it would be cool to rewatch it along with this video.

[@roeyjevels]

One of your best. I love your advice. It gives a top down metanarrative that helps me establish my own axioms. (For example: D&D is a game of killing monsters. Don't be pretentious about it). Thx!

[@deltaphant_]

I would never be able to do this in my campaign, the other players would be quite salty

[@kobrakadabra7669]

Than do it just to see their reaction and to subvert their expectations

[@googleisterrible6843]

@@kobrakadabra7669 thanks rian johnson

[@ididathink5295]

Kobrakadabra ummmm no i hope you not dming

[@oz_jones]

@@kobrakadabra7669 *then

[@cybercase_7807]

To freak out my players I just started by asking all of them privately if they'd like to be a secret bad guy just to sow distrust when I pick one

[@BAHGaming]

Best 32 second video ever.

[@urdaanglospey6666]

I love watching your videos. You can tell how much fun you have making them! :D

[@DandelionDogged]

I have had the party surrender scenario work *once* and it is because I was with a group of players I'd been playing with for years. I looked the lot of them in the eye, and said "Okay, this can go one of two ways. You can win and go home with your loot, or you can lose and something *really cool* will happen. What'll it be?" and let them pick. Which is why "work" was in quotes above. They chose to surrender to see my cool plot, but I'm not sure that counts.

[@slambat298]

My favorite show, Total Party Kill, just did this like literally yesterday!

[@buckhunt6832]

Last time I was this early, Blackbottom was still a free city

[@Hazel-xl8in]

Buck Hunt blackbottom was still a city

[@hommedegout]

When I read the title I thought about "What's a paladin ?" :D

[@Wraith425]

Betrayal! Betrayed me!

[@adammiller4473]

Great advice up front! Glad to have the 'running the game' titles back

[@igotsmeakabob]

@Matt Real quick note on the Minis selection: I voted based on what minis i thought were so different from *available* minis. Fire Mote, Pillar of Water, some of the Chaos and Fey dudes (Not the Monarchon- the Monarchon is dope and weird) all have minis available elsewhere (wizkids, games workshop) that fit the bill close enough.

[@AzraelThanatos]

I've had some fun setting things up for this sort of thing...the real fun is when you can arrange a 30 Xanatos pileup of betrayals and plans including the players...especially if you can make all of them their own ideas.

[@aidanboyle7374]

The beginning made me feel... betrayed

[@ilcuzzo12]

Several years ago my DM and I conspired to do that very thing. My lawful good paladin of heironeous went full blackguard of hextor and the party was thrust into the planes by the bad guy to go acquire powerful plot items. It was a great story twist and the party, though unbalanced by the development, was still a party. When it works it can be awesome.

[@ericpaisley8501]

I was hoping we would watch a middle aged guy fritter away the afternoon. Content gold.

[@TheCrazyPlayer]

Matt: *Points to corner for card* KZbin: *No card appears* Me: “Betrayal most subtle. I approve.”

[@Jasonwolf1495]

The Die Hard comparison was very very helpful.

[@spartan4451]

I was playing a game of the Song of Ice and Fire RPG from Green Ronin. Pretty much every character in our party was a son of or otherwise related to the lord of our fictional House, and during the first couple of sessions I started thinking, "My guy is not okay with the status quo here. He's second in line for the lordship and my older brother's a wangrod. I'll try to figure out a way to take him out." As players, we were already more than okay with the morally ambiguous nature of Westeros, and were more than happy to get in a big knock-down drag-out brawl if everything fell apart. Our alliances as family characters was fairly thin at best. I ended up talking to the party's Maester and asked him to make me some nightshade poison, then asked him if he could keep a secret, informing him that "maybe some things would change soon." I also put my real-life brother's character, a knight serving the house and the son of a banner lord, as my personal bodyguard, and when he started trying to give me counsel, I'd ignore him. His goal was to be the best knight ever, what did he know of statecraft? I ended up using the poison on an NPC one session later and internally came to the conclusion that my older brother, while a wangrod, would still fight for the best interest of the family and therefore it would not be worth it to put myself ahead of him; he had my back, I had his. Later, terrible things happened to my character's spouse which drove my character into a rage. He began barking orders and making unreasonable demands, and basically slowly turned into a Ramsay Snow-esque character. Meanwhile, the Maester character talked to my older brother and informed him of what I'd said and done regarding the poison. After brutalizing a bunch of people while failing to catch a villain, I began barking orders as usual when my older brother, incensed that I might have suggested poisoning him, publicly challenged me to deny it. I tried to explain that I'd changed my mind and that we had other fish to fry now but a lack of patience on the part of my beleaguered character led me to challenge him to a fight to the death. We began fighting, I started losing, and I called out to my real-life brother's character for assistance. Conflicted, the scion of our banner house, a knight who believed in chivalry and believed himself to be fighting in my stead for the greater good, stopped, took a long look at both of us, and plunged his sword straight into my back. The table erupted. Crippled by that awful blow, I tried to continue to fight but couldn't. My older brother quickly finished me off and wept over my corpse. In a game rife with character betrayal, that particular one stood-out. It's as Matt here says: character betrayal can be awful for everyone, or it can create amazing moments.

[@martixy2]

Hm... betrayal can work as long as it does not stop the game. It needs to offer a way forward to everyone. Matt covered one: The party defeats the betrayer. The other more general one is: The betrayer turning the party. "Join me, and together we can rule the galaxy!" Or a persuasive argument of "The ends justify the means". Or reveal something that shifts the party's priorities. Or any number of plot-specific ways to move forward.

[@justinz9225]

I did player betrayal with a guest character, it worked a lot better because there wasn't a massive rift between the core party, but still a big element of surprise when their guest (also a friend) betrayed them. Not only that, he escaped, so there's a possibility for a reunion and possibly working together again, since the betrayal was under morally murky circumstances. There may be a redemption story there.

[@keishii2648]

I played a lvl 20 oneshot not too long ago and I had multiple character ideas I let the other players pick from, but some of the character options were trapped. Well I ended up as a LG tank (Devo Pally), one option was a NE healer (druid/rogue). After the adventure was over assuming I was alive my character would offer a fine bottle of wine worth a fortune to celebrate (its worth is partly because of all the POISON)! Midnight Tears to be exact! LOTS of it! And, once it hit midnight I would have my character stab a PC (after they wake up, but still prone, from taking the first bit of poison damage so I don't crit them) with a (normal...) knife coated in Purple Worm Poison! After the failed assassination I would then teleport/run away and write up an epilogue that despite not being able to kill them I now have first hand knowledge on how they fight and will prepare... Basically ominous foreshadowing meant to go nowhere.

[@Altorin]

*"BETRAYAL!!!!!"* - Spoony the Bard

[@timseig4200]

I love the Idea that Matt Colville just whistles to himself all the time.

[@JoshShultzandKids]

In 30 seconds he managed to betray all of us

[@Uther1313]

I have managed to pull of a betrayal arc really well once. The Wizard used a Wish spell to have access to all of the arcane spells. She was instantly transported into a massive library where she began to copy and steal hundreds of spells from lost tomes found on the shelves only to be contronted by the owner of the Library, the Lich Larlock. The Lich offered to spare her life in exchange for lifetime service to the Lich. She was free to go for now but would be called upon at a later time. She was teleported back to the party and for several levels of the adventure continued to work with them until they entered a divine sanctuary of the party's Cleric's faith and the Wizard was unable to receive a blessing. Everyone looks at her like what??? She then became and NPC adversary to the party and I co-DM'ed with that player for the rest of the Campaign. They subsequently ran the next campaign with the Wizard as the main BBEG. 20 years later and we still talk about it. All spontaneous and completely unplanned.

[@PhileasLiebmann]

UNDER 10 MINUTES!!! The Faceless Guard has infiltrated MCDM Productions!

[@magnusholmfreysson2828]

Yeah, it's very important, I believe, to keep in mind that everyone's perspective is unique, and everything can work. I for example, in my very first session as a GM, and a rather bad one at the time, had the players surrender, and it worked wondrously.

[@nightbeach84]

I feel like if there was someone planning on betraying the party, it'd be a good idea to weave some type of backstory for them to where maybe they are doing the betraying in order to save something dear to them like their kids or something. Thwart this groups advancement and stop them, and we'll take your imprisoned kids out of the 9th gate of hell. I feel like it'd be the easiest way to have the party still retain the group vibe afterwards while also getting this huge dramatic event. Still, just having an evil char in the game sounds cool regardless of their backstory. I had a rogue play once who held a sentient blade that would whisper the names of people who needed to be killed, they would be dispatched by the blade itself if they did not do the deed -- one of the names was a player in the group. We never got to finish that campaign, group fell apart, but I feel like that would have made for some great gameplay, but also could have pissed off some people haha.

[@PonyusTheWolfdude]

I've gotten my players to surrender, but only after many near-wipes (as in, my party has nearly wiped a few times at the begining of our play time, and over time they have started to say "Okay" to "Surrender or Die!"). I also have bad guys surrender to them, so maybe that encourages it. I especially enjoy doing it with groveling goblins, it really gives the party an insight into how horrible goblin society is in my game.

[@apieceofenergy]

So stoked to see you guys producing minis!

[@ANTIMATTERLAZAR]

At my open table a buddy of mine decided to play a ranger with narcolepsy. He played this out by running away from a hoard of skeletons and locking the rest of the party in with them. Then he fell asleep. The (rest of the) party killed all the skeletons and after finding the way out of the locked room they found Arlo, the narcoleptic ranger, still asleep. They proceeded to throw him into the room they had just had a bone party in, locking the door behind him and leaving. Arlo slept through this. To this day Arlo (who is still alive) is the groups punching bag, and is dunked on endlessly. His player is cool with it.

[@ffffffffffffffff5840]

I was in a tutorial one shot we were doing for a new player and somebody was playing a rogue who was planning on betraying the party. It would've worked fine except everyone went down except that player fighting a troll. He got the last hit, then slit everyone's throats. When he tried to get a reward from the village that sent us there, it turned out that the villagers were sending low level adventurers there to get killed by the troll to steal their stuff. They proceeded to lynch the lone rogue for destroying their livelihood.

[@stevencooper1103]

One of my players is playing a necromancer and is about to multiclass (flavor reasons, not gaming reasons.) Into warlock, specically a warlock of Orcus. Can't wait to see how the party takes it. The other 2 members are a spore druid and a rogue/bard.

[@nickwilliams8302]

How do you multiclass for "flavor reasons, not gaming reasons"? Classes are a conceit of the game system. A PC can be a follower of - even sell their soul to - Orcus without multiclassing. Multiclassing isn't going to make it any easier to roleplay a PC as a follower of Orcus. I don't mean this to be antagonistic, I just never understood why people did this. A necromancer is _already_ a _perfect_ follower of Orcus.

[@stevencooper1103]

@@nickwilliams8302 it's just a game, dude, different people play it differently.

[@nickwilliams8302]

@@stevencooper1103 Agreed. It's just, from my perspective, there's few ways to get the "flavor" of being a follower of the Prince of Undeath than ... being better at Necromancy. This is just a suggestion - you do you - but maybe the Blessings on p. 227-8 of the DMG or the Dark Gifts from Curse of Strahd (if you have access) might be a better way to show the character gaining Orcus' favour. Homebrew something out of those. The PC gets a benefit that comes with something that marks their new allegiance. Maybe the character gets a +1 bonus to AC and saves (Blessing of Protection), but starts to look like an undead creature himself (Gift of Zhudun). Rework the Blessing of Valhalla to summon Ghasts instead of Berserkers. From what you've said, you want a cool moment at the table when the other PCs realise this guy's gone all in and is now infused with the unholy essence of Orcus, Demon-Prince of Undeath himself. That sounds awesome. I just think that if the other PCs find out that the Necromancer just sold his soul for two cantrips and two first level spells, they're likely to laugh, tell him he's a moron and that he shouldn't sign things after he's been drinking.

[@jaycub8547]

I recently betrayed the party in my game, it was incredibly dramatic and I ended up taking out the party paladin before the group had to flee the battle with only enough of the body of the paladin to cast Reicarnate and bring him back as most likely something other than a goliath (his original race). Now im a reoccurring villain, which is going to be great because my character was originally everyone's friend and most trusted ally.

[@CondensedMalk]

Just ended a short evil campaign based on betrayal, where right at the end the Bard betrayed the party.

[@novaoneactual2809]

I was that bard! I learnt betrayal from you Mr. Coleville. I learnt it from you!