Beyond D&D: Beast the Primordial

[@Theokal3]

Okay, I must say, I have a deep respect for how you talked about the game. You did adress the infamous controversy around it, but didn't let that taint your video too much and still presented the game objectively, even giving advices to run it while avoiding the problems that comes with it. That's admirable and as someone who feels the game still has some merits, I deeply appreciate^^ Personally, I tend to run Beasts in crossover games as well, and lessen the emphasis on abuse by asking my players to pick ways to feed that aren't horrifying. Though they rarely have to feed anyway, since usually Family Dinner takes care of the job. To this day, I never really had huge problems with my Beast players.

[@AwkwardGMCorbin]

Thank you. I often run into an issue with Family Diner because the Supernatural with you has to be “actively hunting”. What that means can vary, because it’s a more narrative restriction, but it calls out that you can’t get Satiety when a Vampire feeds from their herd. Now if you often find yourself feeding during or after combat, I’d say that counts. And there have been people I know who do bend the rules a bit on this. 🤷🏻‍♂️ I’m very happy you’ve found a way to get Beasts to work in your game. 🤗 I’m very jealous because pets of them I like especially the lair mechanics, but I think I may have to play one myself in order to see how the Beast mindset can be less abusive. 🤞🏻 Fingers crossed.

[@Theokal3]

@@AwkwardGMCorbin Okay fair^^ personally the way I understood it, you get 1 Satiety from feeding and another from the hunt. So hunting is required to get 1 extra satiety but just feeding can do the job. But I might remember wrong. I can give you some examples of Beasts players I had who managed to not be disgusting or abusive, if your curious^^

[@danieltallon4316]

Thank you for making this video and for the disclaimer. A lot of WoD can be intimidating tomes that are hard to break down and digest, and you guys do a great job introducing each game line. To be honest, I really tried to ignore Beast in my own games. You see, I personally know the lead writer, and we had a major falling out during the development of Beast. Then the news came out, and I wanted even less to do with it. All of this is to say that I have been unable to even begin looking into the lore and system - my personal feelings are still too raw. Thanks to your video, I now have some sense of what Beast is, and maybe one day I’ll incorporate some of it.

[@comyuse9103]

i wouldn't. for how little there actually is, the Beast fluff is not good. the fluff and lore is incredibly conflicted, for instance it constantly jumps between saying you were born the way you are and that you chose to be what you are (even in the same sections!). it still very much feels like someone was trying very hard for social commentary beyond the abuse apologia (at least one hero explicitly based off of gamer gate, or conflating the LGBTQ+ community with beasts, which should be obviously problematic). the only thing it theoretically adds to the setting is the dark mother (i say theoretically because she only _might_ exist within the canon of beast and she isn't fleshed out at all), it is so focused on other gamelines that it doesn't really have anything of its own. being focused on multi-splat stuff also works as a detriment to the other splats too, imo, it is lightly implied that (and also refuted, because the book is as vague and nebulous as possible) that every other splat besides demon is just beasts by a different name.

[@cosmicfails2053]

Beasts to me, feels sort of like, And this is a pretty bad example but, Silent Hill 2 vs Silent Hill Homecoming Beast is trying to plaster the CofD name upon itself and rub shoulders amongst the others, but, to its very core, could not be any further from being alien to the series as possible Standalone, Beast could stand as a pretty interesting idea and bring great intrigue to the setting. However, when the Beasts are sharing the world with... Demi-God mages, unrelenting Mummies, beings borne from the fruits of intense magic, survivors of interdimensional Kidnapping, Ghost-Wielding Death Cultists, Vampires with powers ranging from mind control to blood bending, Werewolves who can rip you from mouth to ass in the physical and spiritual world, Cyborg Demon Rebels fighting against the concept of reality itself, People blessed by unseen patrons to slay all of the aforementioned... Beasts are... Really Lame. They are... people who just make other people's lives miserable... for their own benefit. There is the whole "Teach them a lesson" But that concept seems so... broad and vague and hazy for CofD, like If I wanted to teach people a lesson with every interaction, I'd play Geist the Sin-Eater and help Ghosts learn what it is that they loved on the material plane, or to relay certain confessions from ghosts to the living so that people can have lessons of catharsis given to them, that, even in death, some joy can be derived as prosperity is borne from the most unexpected things Instead I can... set fire to someone's house, and then teach them, "Be grateful for what you have, cause I can just take it away" ... W h y? It is so... abstract and foreign to CofD because, no one else is trying to... "teach lesson" Educate maybe, but often its simply, they're living a life, with just, different goals, Whilst it feels like a Beast's goal in life is to, and I apologise for this, but, to be the biggest asshole there ever was, and end up feeling like the really unlikeable characters in those TV Shows, like the really rude boss who is always screaming and abusing their workers, or the dumb villains who do really dumb elaborate plans and do it for no reason but to be "Evil" and to top it all off... sure, there are... nightmare powers and what have you... but thats about it. No... means of directly manifesting your Monster... maybe their lair... thats it Look I could go on but theres just a lot on my mind to say. For a TL;DR Play Geist the Sin-Eater. It's a similar experience of People wanting to gain fulfilment in life, even if it means at the cost of other's, but it allows you to more freely try to explore and enjoy life, rather than actively trying to ruin and destroy other people's lives.

[@comyuse9103]

being incredibly vague is something that put me off, on top of all the other problems it has. even changeling, the one i say gives the most actual room to design whatever you'd like, is still about fae creatures and they abide by fairytales in all of their theming and mechanics. beasts? they are just...literally everything. even their own fluff just implies everything else is beasts as well.

[@KOkami03]

As someone who enjoys Beast despite its flaws, thank you so much for making this video! I’ve seen too many videos where people simply write off Beast because of the controversies surrounding its creation. I especially like your suggestions at the end. I would also recommend the book “Night Horrors: Conquering Heroes” which not only adds more substance to Heroes, but provides an additional uniquely Beast antagonists: the Insatiables

[@TheHelpful2]

About Beast: The Primordial, you're not really wrong about the uncomfortable feeling that a lot of them just feel like jerks to play, and that is kind of the point. Beasts exist to create Fear in Humans and through Fear there are Lessons to be told. However, even the Beasts themselves question whether they could justify causing mental and emotional trauma by brushing it off as "using Fear to teach Old Lessons", and should they (they as in the Beasts themselves) even exist in the Modern world where they ask why should Humans fear the monsters and beasts of Ye Old Times, when there are more pressing situations around them like Human Corruption, Climate Change Disasters, etc. It mostly comes down to the "Hunger" aspect of Beasts and how your players will want to fulfill said Hungers. Choosing and Finding Beasts' prey(s) is a part of the game. It would probably not be too surprising to know that the Nemesis Hunger is one of the most popular of the Hungers, as you could turn that Fear against Immoral Humans and deliver punishment Batman style. You could go the Collectors Hunger and go Robinhood style, have your Beast go on high octane heists against the rich (and maybe evil). Whispers Hunger could have you be a Beast that uses the cover of an Investigative Journalist job to uncover Human corruption that could lead to toppling corporations, resignations, or even an arrest. Tyrants Hunger could be a Beast that is a criminal with a Heart of Gold that goes after criminal organizations around the world, accumulating power, and targeting certain crime groups to exert an influence over what the crime groups could do underneath your rule such as "We can deal in weapons, but no drugs" as a crude example. Predator Hunger might share some similarity to Nemesis Hunger Beasts. Ravagers and Enablers are probably the two types of Hungers that will be very difficult for People to get behind. Though, with Ravagers they can target property instead of humans directly. Enablers are their own kind of monsters within the Beasts, even if there are Enabler Beasts who don't want to do what they have to do to feed. In a way, you can turn these Hungers into something "Good" and helpful, if that's the story you want to tell. The Beasts in the game acknowledge what they're doing may be not so useful in the Modern World. (Of course, acknowledging the Bad things you do is still not really as good as just Not Doing said Bad Things). I will not deny the fact that this line from CofD is a bit more difficult to play due to how "Evil" your characters may have to be in order to retain this Satiety, but that's kind of the tragic beauty of Beasts. You may have kind, well-meaning Beasts who wish they didn't had to do these bad things to others in order to just Eat and Survive, and that's a tale that can be told with this story. Some Beasts even fight against their nature to the point of becoming quasi-Heroes and go on a rampage against their fellow Beasts. You could argue that Vampires go into this too with needing to consume Blood to Eat and Survive, however WHAT the Beasts need to Eat changes a lot of things. With Vampires, they can go for many different sources without (possibly) hurting too many people. With Beasts, yeah that'll be a good dose of mental and emotional trauma. Of course, this doesn't go into the details of the "Heroes" of Beasts: the Primordial, but they are their own large paragraphs to write about. Beasts is my favorite lines of CofD (Mage the Awakening being second, though it is so much more complex to play due to the Magick system), so if you want to talk more about it, let me know. I'm open to explaining why I love Beasts so much.

[@AwkwardGMCorbin]

Do you know what aspects from BtP’s Player’s Guide help make BtP more palatable? I often get that advice.

[@TheHelpful2]

@@AwkwardGMCorbin I think it would be the Lessons and the examples of the Hunts that each specific Hungers go for. Checking each Hunger's "Feeding Preferences". You can also separate the Hunts into two "categories" I unofficially would call: Small Hunts and Big Hunts. Small Hunts are typically done at lower Satiety in order to relieve Low Satiety, although at High Satiety you would need to have the damage become more Grandiose in some way, metaphorically or physically. Big Hunts are more planned out Hunts that require time to carry out. The amount of Satiety gained would be larger, and the impact you would have on your Prey and the Prey's surroundings would increase too. Typically, this would be used for Middle Satiety rather than Low Satiety where the Horror becomes more impatient for Food and just wants it regardless of how grand or planned out it is. Hungers can change over time as that's a mechanic introduced in BtP's Player's Guide, though in-game it can be described as a Beast having an epiphany that their "true" Hunger isn't X, but is Y instead. I think you could also find examples of Small Hunts in the core rulebook of BtP. Enablers are probably going to be the most difficult of the Hungers to play through, and that's fine. There are many other Hungers and Hunting methods to explore. Edit: There are actually 3 Levels for the Hunt depending on Satiety, and they are High Satiety, Moderate Satiety, and Low Satiety. You can check the Whisper Hunger on page 70 to see the examples of the hunt for that Hunger.

[@TheHelpful2]

@@AwkwardGMCorbin In BtP's Player's Guide Chapter Four, it talks about the Culture of Lessons and the Checks and Balances that Beasts have against one another. That might also be a nice place to consider. Excerpt from Page 130 of BtP's Player Guide: "Feeding is such an important affair for Beasts, sometimes all consuming, other times the only driving force. Feeding their Horrors is a never-ending cycle - no matter what else she does with herself, sooner or later, a Beast must always satisfy her Hunger. What purpose is there in a life dominated solely by the need to feed? This question haunts the Children, and for many the only answer is the lesson. Lessons form a link between a Beast and humanity, giving her a context in which to exist, and a purpose in life. Not all Beasts buy into the concept of lessons as deeply as others, but all Begotten hear about the concept of lessons shortly after their Devouring, and sometimes before." If you're a DM / ST for Beast characters, they have their own idea on what kind of characters / persons their Beasts shall be. You can weave a tragic tale of a Beast trying to come to grips with what they are / have become. Some Beasts believe in the Lessons they teach through Fear, other Beasts scoff at the idea of the Lessons, all Beasts (deep down) question whether their existence is meaningful / needed even if they don't admit it out loud. Horrors do NOT care about the morality of the Beasts. They only exist to feed in a constant cycle. It is up to the Beasts to pick their Prey(s) carefully to reduce collateral damage to those that don't really deserve it.

[@chukyuniqul]

Honestly as a near-complete outsider, I don't get where the distaste for the game's options comes from. To me it sounds like the perfect game to indulge in some "I wanna be a monster" fantasy at the table. But people seem inclined to try and play the good guy? Idk, if I wanted to play as a misunderstood good guy who has to fight his inner monster I feel there's way more options out there.

[@TheHelpful2]

That absolutely is an option. Just that some people cannot really seem to stomach playing that kind of character, and they are somewhat vocal about it. If people wanted to play a Beast that ignored the Lessons and just wanted to go on a Nightmare spree and terrorize humanity for fun and enjoyment sake, I'd allow it, just have to discuss it with the Players what that entails when they go hunting. ​@chukyuniqul

[@stephenhenderson6143]

I've played a beast and run a crossover game with a beast. Wonderful line. The alien thinking of the beast is core to the game

[@RotaFury]

See unlike the orginal concept of beast before it was rewritten more, where beasts where born with the souls of beasts. I do like the idea of beast vs hero. However well I love the system i admit it is bit clanky and wish it have a few changes stuff I'll likely do.

[@AwkwardGMCorbin]

This is why I think I'd like to see how a 2nd edition of this gameline would be interpreted. It had potential, but went into a bad direction.

[@jimworth7989]

I'm not a fan of the game (it's all me, I don't think it's bad) but you discussed it well.

[@AwkwardGMCorbin]

Thank you!

[@mattblissett1966]

I've made a chronicle called Warm Cove where the Beasts have all just been devoured. For me, as a player, I like the additional hunger of Enabler and Whisper, so one of those, and for Family? Raptors or Lurkers.

[@mattblissett1966]

The trick to making this manageable is using the idea of sublimation. So your Beasts are teaching lessons and policing the worst excesses of their kin, like Batman meets a responsible parent. My players' characters are all police detectives in a small city who were devoured in close proximity.

[@TheAtlarchy]

That explains why that book is so confusing to read and also why nobody wanted to take seriously the fact I liked this... Beast was the first idea in WoD that I actually liked enough to get into that system in the first place, as it allows for a lot of freedom in creating a monster of your own... I am not a fan of fighting with other monsters in those types of stories, but had no clue there was a controversy regarding the author... I plan on doing exactly what I do in any other case though... use the mechanics and craft my won world and lore anyway, because that's what I always do, except for warhammer... I am a bit bummed down that the main rules for making a character are in the book with a guide on how to play in the predefined lore, as that's not what I was interested in and I already imported a book from US just to play it, but... eh... I guess we will wing it with the core book somehow... I did get changelink as well btw, but it seems harder to be original with, however it can still work very nicely I believe, it's just... I guess I wanted to make a tale with my players of "being the bad guys" and not "fighting other bad guys as bad guys" which may be why I picked that one, unaware of the controversy...

[@warlocksanctumgames]

I was not aware about that fact about the writer. Good to know. I've used beast a few times as npcs.

[@warlocksanctumgames]

@@AwkwardGMCorbin fair enough. I see alot of potential. And yes safety rules, mechanics are a must in my games normally. This game would highlight the reason for them.

[@honestkyn718]

I feel Beast work a lot better noth on their own and mostly as antagonist

[@danieltallon4316]

Yeah…sadly I know that creator and that is exactly why I’ve avoided this game.

[@lincr.1988]

Even not being fond of this specific game, this is an amazing video, great work man! :D

[@damienwilliams2947]

If I were running a beast game I'd explain the congnitive disconnect between how the game plays and how it's portrayed. If you're playing Beast you are playing Freddy or Pennywise. You aren't playing good guys. It's an evil campaign game.

[@SuperNoah9999]

Considering the existence of hunters in CofD, does anyone else feel that heroes are kinda redundant? Especially since Beast was already designed with crossover capability in mind.

[@AwkwardGMCorbin]

Heroes have more potent powers than Hunters. Essentially they can sense Beasts and can apply Anathema to them. Anathema being rules that the Beast then has to follow. So if a Beast looks kind of like a Vampire the Hero says “Stake him in the heart it’s the only way to kill him!” Suddenly the Beast has Bane (Stake to Heart) and takes Aggravated Damage from that attack. Or if the Hero says “The Beast only hunts virgins.” Now the Beast cannot feed off of non-virgins. I would definitely say in its current form Heroes seem like they’d be more likely to coopt hunters to fight Beasts as they have a rally cry type ability for forming posses.

[@bengonzalez5215]

Ive known jer for a long time not surprised he is an expert in this game

[@whitedwarf9090]

I would play beat just as it’s supposed to be played a villain. There’s nothing wrong with rping as an evil character. It’s actually pretty fun to do lol.

[@AwkwardGMCorbin]

I think it would do well to put the Beasts in a darker light. As it stands now there is a lot of self justification and lore that says they are in the right. And it’s not presented as an opinion but as a fact of the world. I like the way Demon and Vampire do the villain role. Vampires know they are evil and the fight between their inner-beast and humanity is key aspect to them. Demon does similar as well with the Demons trying to maintain their Human Covers while being forced to turn to being a Demon to maintain that life. Beast on the other hand doesn’t maintain that balance as well for me.

[@rakino4418]

It really feels like those types of characters wouldn't socialise with each other

[@vman0113]

Do one on hunter: the vigil

[@alexsgamingshow2474]

I would like to try this out if you ever run games for viewers.

[@AwkwardGMCorbin]

Thank you, if/when I decide to I will make an announcement on this channel.

[@alexsgamingshow2474]

@@AwkwardGMCorbin Okay! Well I'm thinking about running a Geist Sin-Eaters game on Discord if you want to join! Will be on every Saturday evening after six.

[@rakino4418]

I'm always just left puzzled why anyone would play Beast over one of the other games? You can explore the same themes as a vampire, changeling or wolf and have all the society and other fun stuff that come with those lines

[@mrslasher1064]

I'm aware that original creator of beast has been accused of sexual assault However I'm still gonna use the sourcebook because the people that I play with aren't babies and understand the concept of separating the art from the artist,just because you like the work of someone does not mean you endorse or condone their actions or beliefs,you don't represent them by using their creations,do people that drive ford cars agree with everything Henry Ford ever did or said? Do people that enjoy the work of Renaissance era painters believe in the same things they did? No,because art and the artist are two separate things...

[@FR0STBL0D]

... well separating art from the artist just makes sense if the art doesn't represent the misdeeds and/or harmful ideologies of the artist and if the artist doesn't profit from the art in order to continue the harm. Otherwise it's just immature sidelining of responsibility and ignoring the damage. An easy opt out. Try separating art and artist in the case of Marko Rupnik. It's just not possible. It's rather often an impossible task - especially when you've not shied away from doing the deep dive. On the other hand: Dealing with problematic art & artists ... is kind of possible. Folks can own the guilt that comes with it, take responsibility and address the issues in many ways. It's neither cruel nor shameful to like problematic art/artists. Just deal with it in a mature way.

[@timothyjohnson4606]

I like the vid man, but you leave out the Players guide.

[@yanmtl5759]

I heard about the drama for the 1st time, today. I never liked the game and knowing about the writer didn’t change anything. I feel the game is weird, not well made. It’s nothing compared to the quality of mage or changeling. I came here to get a second opinion on the game but you almost spent 50% of the video talking about that jerk. Sad

[@AwkwardGMCorbin]

It’s tough to talk about a game where the premise is essentially “Beasts are abusers” and when the designer is an accused abuser it’s hard to separate the “artist from the art”. Especially when Beasts are not encouraged to introspect about the monstrous aspect, which other splats tend to do. Prometheans, Vampires, Werewolves, etc… all understand they themselves are dangerous and reflect on that along with their relationship with humanity. It definitely could use an update to refine things.

[@yanmtl5759]

@@AwkwardGMCorbin I’m not against an update, I just felt you were walking on eggshells a lot and distracted from the core about that splat. But I understand your point

[@ButTheCatCameBack]

The linked Discord includes "not mods" who have chummed around with neo nazis and people that directly targeted trans members of the Chronicles of Darkness fanbase before said Discord was eventually shut down by the 4chan owner.

[@martinarnold5239]

Are you sure? That server seems to be still open

[@ClericalError87]

The Discord linked had bad faith actors who were banned for actual disruptive, toxic behavior. Some of those actors went and formed their own Discord which was shut down by Discord admins (though I believe since then they have propped up a second one. I haven't really kept up with it).

[@wyvernnemecek595]

So, funnily enough, this Tis the first TTRPG that I’ve gotten into outside of DND and when I’m running it (having not realized what McFarland did, simply not liking what he’d written) I have a brood of Beasts with N/PC Heroes as a counterbalance. The Beasts wanna become their true, Primordial Selves yet that comes with dangers, namely the safety of humans around them. The Heroes are there to help them without letting them become dangerous, so they’re essentially sleuthing for ways to help Beasts become the monsters of myth and legend. It’s a very dangerous investigation, however, as Beasts are-at least in my Chronicle-an invasive race placed on Earth by the Dark Mother to some unknowable end and the other playable races are putting Beasts down left and right when able. Changelings are especially unfond of them as they’re essentially a horrific counterpart to the Fae-touched, and Prometheans see them as a mockery of what all Created wish to become. Werewolves and Vampires simply see them as threats that require elimination, Demons & Sin-Eaters treat them like blasphemies requiring extermination, yet I’d not realized Mummies were in WoD as a playable faction/race so I’m kinda sad I haven’t a solution for that plot hole. Nonetheless are the Beast PCs forced to defend themselves from the other races while Heroes try to keep the peace, absolutely exhausted from what’s essentially a nonstop crusade against monsters in the world. By the end of it all, the Beast PCs achieve their wish, either separating Horror from Begotten body or physically transforming and both options come with unfortunate consequences for the group. It all ends with the last Beast having to make the choice to either become a raging animal or die and forever be within the Primordial Dream

[@KaiserAfini]

I read the ideas of Beast and it really didn't grab me. The supernatural condition itself seemed an order of magnitude worse than being a vampire, who at least try to balance humanity versus temptation, how werewolves need to harmonize the sideways logic of spirits and the logic of humans to keep themselves stable and the world safe from spirits or even how mages need to be careful not to become monsters out of greed and hubris. But Beast has no higher ideal, no balance state to strive for, the nature of the power is to make the Begotten abusive at some level. That did not sit well with me. The power to make themselves easier to like with other supernatural splats and being able to feed by following their main drives felt like a very forced way to incentivize crossover. I like the Atavisms being cool monster powers that change via resource management, but Nightmares being limited only to being scary felt very one note compared to the social abilities of other splats. Lairs are just plain cool, so is the idea of customizing and summoning them. I am not a fan of Heroes, they are in some ways just as bad as Beasts, but replace abuse for zealotry, neither option is particularly sympathetic. Even after taking a look at the Beast Player's Guide and Conquering Heroes, even agreeing that there is a marked improvement in the writing, I just don't find them interesting or something I would want to add to my chronicles. I just tend to ignore the game line altogether, since it never resonated with me.

[@mikerand1980]

Satiety: Pronounced “SAY-shi-tee.”...

[@Eruranu]

The video in general was good, but I am so tired of everyone having to mention the drama when talking about Beast... disliked.

[@motymurm]

I have no idea why did you feel obligated to mention accusations surrounding one of thr authors like it is necessary or related to the work. Bruh.

[@AwkwardGMCorbin]

For Beast the Primordial, the way the Beasts feed is by being abusers. Dominate, torture, and punish when you feed. And not like in a Vampire feeding on people way, where the Vampires struggle with their humanity and know they are doing something wrong even if they become desensitized over time. Beast makes sure to let you know that Beast characters are justified in their actions and it’s the Heroes who are in the wrong for killing Beasts. Even though this author has worked on multiple projects (Demon and Promethean to name a few), Beast is a game about abusers written by an accused abuser. It is hard to separate the author from this work in that way.

[@zeevdrifter2707]

"accused" oh so no evidence? cute how are justice system works