Bible is Valid Evidence | Fred - Michigan | Atheist Experience 23.22

[@cwolf208]

How refreshingly honest this guy is.

[@ahgflyguy]

And he's not doing anything all that special, either. He's just engaging in a discussion about epistemology while not engaging in the ego-defense tactics that the church beats into people. I had a conversation with a (very intelligent) colleague who was able to see that it was a little odd (for him) that he was not very concerned about whether his belief about the age of the planet was correct. I couldn't get him to go any further than that, but having him realize and say out loud that he's not as invested in truth on one subject as he usually would be, well, maybe that's enough to get him to be curious about its cause.

[@ralfhaggstrom9862]

@@ahgflyguy Maybe ...............

[@ianeagle40nil]

Honest with himself.

[@Moondogg22]

You’re almost there, Fred. We’re rooting for you.

[@AString95]

Moondogg22 why do you actually care?

[@nathanelder2718]

@@AString95 Very good point. Why do they actually care. I think you know. This is about a political and social nature. The atheist and the pagan are just chomping at the bit for the legal, green light, to exercise absolute tyranny.

[@RoninMiyamotoMusashi]

@@AString95 More rational people will probably make for a more rational world.

[@RoninMiyamotoMusashi]

@@AString95 Everything is meaningless and pointless - it is up to us to find meaning and purpose in our lives. However since I like to live in the world and society created by logic, mathematics, science and morality, I would just like to remove the remnants of superstition i.e. religion.

[@AString95]

@@RoninMiyamotoMusashi Exactly, meaning is subjective. Bringing people to atheism makes for a more "rational" world. That's a subjective opinion. There is no evidence to support your position to my knowledge. Your idea of rationality and logic are your subjective opinions, which are ultimately meaningless.

[@Asa...S]

Don is sitting there staring at Matt wondering why Matt chose "Matt strangled Don" as an example...

[@svpmvp2433]

The concern on his face 😔 xD

[@argonnas01]

Don always gets the rough end of every example. Matt and Tracy often used him as such, always to a very funny conclusion. Matt or Tracy: I could do "X very bad thing to Don" Don: *veeery concerned look" Hilarity ensues :D

[@FerrariKing]

Makes you wonder what happens behind the scenes

[@argonnas01]

@@FerrariKing must be quite the party at Star of India at 6:30 pm on sundays

[@silverwings2493]

That's why people have life insurance.....just in case.

[@AllThingsFilm1]

Wow. A caller that doesn't sound like they drank the Kool-Aid. What a refreshing video. I hope to hear more callers like this guy.

[@ChannelMath]

This guy is probably a top 5 Christian caller. I'd say about 1/4 of the Christian callers (ignoring repeats) are above-average reasonable. You wonder in the end, with most of these, why they don't just say "OK, I'm an agnostic"!

[@Max50ww]

He definitely is intellectually honest. That is a rarity for sure

[@forevertygr1843]

What does drink the Kool-Aid mean? Asking because I come from Kenya and Kool-Aid doesn't exist here however i always thought that it was meant to be drank as some form of cheap luxury thus I fail to grasp the religion intonation in the manner in which you used 'doesn't sound like they drank the KoolAid'

[@forallthestupidshit3550]

@@forevertygr1843 drink the cool-aid refers to the fact that in some cults, there are mass suicides when a leader poisons cool-aid and convinces members to drink the cool-aid willingly. So drink the cool-aid is when people do something they know is harmful, but they believe in the message so much, they are willing to do it. It basically means people who willingly become or stay indoctrinated

[@forevertygr1843]

@@forallthestupidshit3550 Thanks for the enlightenment...

[@thatshowitsdone8740]

Can u imagine bumping into “1980’s religious Matt”? Would be hilarious 😂

[@ericscaillet2232]

You can be sure he would have been as critical in his thinking as presently ,nobody's changes that quick, but one can grow in intelligence exponentialy.

[@Brammy007a]

Ha... interesting. Imagine today's Matt bumping into “1980’s religious Matt”.

[@LongDrive-ze9jw]

Oh boy!

[@krassos]

This is why we need Time Travel, so that we can arrange this call. Or better yet, alternate reality Matt where he never deconverted.

[@alankoslowski9473]

To be fair, I was never religious, but bumping into the 20 year old version of myself would be awkward and weird since I was so wrong about so many things and making so many mistakes at that age.

[@weitzen]

Good man Fred....carry on questioning!!

[@ronburgandy5006]

Yes the bible is valid evidence that the writers had a vivid imagination writing fictional stories.

[@raysalmon6566]

So you know these 42 authors over 1500 years

[@ronburgandy5006]

@@raysalmon6566 nope. Neither does anybody else.

[@raysalmon6566]

@Timothy Mostad So then why did Jesus quote Genenis???

[@raysalmon6566]

@Timothy Mostad No Jesus had the Septuagent The entire OT as we know it. The Torah was a sub set

[@ronburgandy5006]

@Timothy Mostad Only religious people today can stay out of mental wards openly claiming the psycho stories are true. Claim anything similiar outside of it and you are considered bat-shit crazy and need serious help...not Christians though, Nooo...believing a woman was made from a rib is perfectly normal....

[@umachan9286]

The bible is valid evidence that there's a bible. And that's about it.

[@ringo666]

Yep, bible proves people wrote stuff. Nothing more. I don't buy into Matt's stance that anecdotal evidence IS evidence, sufficient or not. Without factual support, anecdotal evidence is only meaningful AT ALL if someone else takes their word for it... same as faith.

[@aaronkuntze7494]

Good one!

[@xozegraf7179]

and there ya go! How 'bout a Freska!

[@JohnMRockwell]

The bible isn't completely wrong......the page numbers are in order .

[@henrikrolfsen584]

That is all of it!

[@fludeball]

Let’s take a moment to appreciate the sound quality of this guy’s microphone.

[@Slevin_Kalevra]

Clearly a razer product. 😂

[@laurieharper1526]

Would that all theists were like Fred. Reasonable and prepared to listen to others.

[@MGC-XIII]

Then there would probably not be any theists around anymore... There is a reason why "ignorance is bliss" is a religious statement and why knowledge is the ultimate sin in the Bible.

[@laurieharper1526]

@@MGC-XIII Agreed.

[@argonnas01]

@@MGC-XIII this!!!!

[@j0hncon5tantine]

@Laurie You seem to me like you might be an atheist, are you one? If so why did you become or decide to call yourself an atheist? What kind of atheist are you exactly? What really sells you on that? Do you believe your life, body, family and the ground you walk on are all a gift or something else? If you believe they are all something else then what do you think they all are then? If you found out tomorrow that the God of the Bible is in FACT REAL how do you think you would change your life or what do you think you should do differently in this situation?

[@carpediem5232]

I would agree, but widen your statement to include all people, sadly there are many atheists with a closed mind and set worldview as well.

[@SamIAm-kz4hg]

One thing I find that is often overlooked is that the Bible isn't alone in its claims. Other holy texts make similar claims of supernatural occurrences, and in general, there are claims in the MILLIONS about supernatural things happening in the world. In light of this, we should look at the Bible with great skepticism, since it seems that humans are prone to make up and believe any number of things.

[@Steelmage99]

They can't all be true (as they make contradictory claims), but they *_can_* all be wrong.

[@Cyba_IT]

Samiam 666 That's a good point. If the bible was the only book making claims then that might make it something special. It still wouldn't make it true of course

[@wayneelliott1180]

It called plagiarism. Religion is a concoction of tales that evolved from the days of multi-theism. Christianity was dead in the water until Constantine picked it up because mommy told him too. He claimed to be the 13th disciple and then Jesus himself.

[@sharr630]

Also, I feel it's important to point out that all of the three major religions came to prominence at a time when 99 percent of people were wholly ignorant of basic science, math, logic and even their own written languages. The fact that SO many people still follow these faiths, despite the fact that we now have access to more knowledge than the combined knowledge of all of history is truly astounding to me. But I doubt that most people ever even think about the implications of this reality.

[@Cyba_IT]

@@sharr630 It certainly is baffling. Indoctrination, wishful thinking, fear, delusion and ignorance are powerful things I guess

[@Pranav-rp8wi]

over the years, the quality of callers has improved. good job ACA

[@jayjocrazy5218]

@S Gloobal I can.

[@jayjocrazy5218]

@S Gloobal First of all, I have responded to all your comments with evidence, how is that playing the blind game? And can you show me evidence of the bible and evidence against evolution?

[@jayjocrazy5218]

@S Gloobal Ok. Which articles?

[@Pranav-rp8wi]

@S Gloobal grow up dude. Don't mix faith with science. You'll live more comfortably.

[@Pranav-rp8wi]

@S Gloobal well, tell that to the researchers in the field. I've no interest in debating the theory of evolution with you as much as the theory of general relativity, Philips curve, rimland theory, electron holes concept in a semiconductor diode.. If you have credible evidence against the theory of evolution.. with this buzzword of yours orphan Gene(!?) Publish your research revolutionise the worldview get a Nobel prize.. A comment section isn't taking your research anywhere. .. lol

[@godless1014]

A theist who is calm, rational, AND honest? We must protect this man. He is the last of his kind. He is like a rare albino unicorn.

[@Charles-tv6oi]

Probably a planted call

[@TheMargarita1948]

Actually not. I know quite a number of rational theists who respect other beliefs.

[@paulgemme6056]

So, unbelievers must choose not to believe in an Almighty Designer Creator God/Jesus Christ because it doesn't fit who they are. Believers choose to believe the Designer, Creator of the universe exist because all creation screams there is an Almighty, Designer, Creator. That's who we are, believers in the truth, the evidence is right in front of our eyes. Life could never, did not and never will be able to exist without the Giver and Sustainer of life - Jesus Christ. John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made.

[@dwightfitch3120]

@@paulgemme6056Paul,you don’t know why ppl disbelieve. Non believers don’t know why you believe. You don’t have to know,or think you know,the answer to everything

[@paulgemme6056]

@@dwightfitch3120 I don't know the answer to everything, but I do know the answer to who Jesus Christ is.

[@MaxfieldAllison]

I love hearing calls like this. It's so refreshing when people understand that you guys aren't trying to hurt them but help them reason through these big problems.

[@rasaecnai]

i feel like he is at the tipping point. a little push maybe and he would be able to rid of himself of this nonsense. I hope he has to guts to do it despite familial, peer, and societal pressure. We've been there buddy. just a little bit more.

[@ronmatthews1738]

I thought the penny was going to drop when he was talking about leeches. Perhaps it planted a seed.

[@ungertron]

Fred should rid himself of the atheist nonsense that the obsolete biblical faith based supernatural fiction represents the creator & supreme ruler of the cosmos God. Science inadvertently discovered & verified, beyond a reasonable doubt that God is what scientists call the laws of nature & forces of physics.

[@rasaecnai]

@@ungertron alright...i know some of the words you typed. but you aint making any sense bro, you are talking nonsense bullshit.

[@i.i.iiii.i.i]

@@ungertron So God is basically physics, meaning by your definition he just exists as the laws of nature. Why would you call that a God?

[@ungertron]

​@@rasaecnaiAll atheists insanely think the faith based supernatural sub-scientific fiction in the obsolete bible describes the true creator & ruler of the cosmos God. Your atheist lie never created or ruled any universe so it is not God. The one & only true contender for the lofty role of the genuine all-natural creator & ruler God was inadvertently discovered by the natural sciences to be composed of the laws of nature & forces of physics NOT the atheist faith based supernatural lie composed of the father, son and holy ghost. Believe me, no matter how many times atheists thump their bibles you're not going to change your atheist lie into the scientific truth about God.

[@banzaibobA7V]

Terry Pratchett's novel "Small Gods" is a brilliantly funny and insightful look at how belief defines gods.

[@jogriffin9347]

Fred’s eyes are opening !!! Like the many of us did at one time ..

[@mrmanlet7385]

All it took for me was to listen to some episodes and boom, I’m an atheist

[@jogriffin9347]

MrManlet Welcome to your freedom

[@bowerystan9474]

mine are now opening.

[@lufayoubhopes8997]

have u read quran jo

[@chrisyoung5929]

​@@lufayoubhopes8997 "have u read quran jo" Yes a bad copy of the Bible which is a bad copy of the old Babylonian and other myths. I have read the Iliad and I don't follow Zeus. I have read Beowulf and do not follow Odin. What is your point?

[@TumbleweedMK4]

I like this guy, he's one of the best and most reasonable callers I've seen

[@gabrieljordan8015]

Fred sounds exactly like I did about 3 years ago when I was at my 'tipping point'.

[@Longtack55]

What tipped you over Gabriel?

[@gabrieljordan8015]

@@Longtack55 Reality tipped me over.

[@wayneelliott1180]

@@gabrieljordan8015 - Good on you, mate.

[@erl7466]

nice job everybody! that was what these conversations should be like! realize and accept the truth, whatever that may be.

[@Arkloyd]

Too bad most christians are too dishonest to be like this caller. They'll usually try to change the subject when it is pointed out how unreliable faith is. Or they just try to redefine faith into something it isn't.

[@Arkloyd]

@Cute Cupcake They _think_ they have given a good answer. It usually turns out to be bullshit… Just ask any rational person that uses reason. What I, personally, never get an honest answer to is when I ask christians why they worship such an obvious evil monster. They try to change the subject to how I can know right from wrong when I don't worship their obviously fictional god of slavery and conquest rape.

[@Arkloyd]

@S Gloobal Your argument from ignorance really shows how bad you are at understanding logic. Anyway, one example of something that would be evil and not just: By the way, genocides are not just. No matter who said to do it. Torture, for *any* reason is _also_ not "just." *Leviticus 25;44-46 NLT* _However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way._ That last bit sounds nice (If completely _racist!)_ until you read below: *Exodus 21;2-6 NLT* _If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever._ Oh look, a loophole. Emotional manipulation at its finest! Let's see how the bible treats women… (Who are always counted among the property in the OT, even when they're not slaves!) *Exodus 21;7-11 NLT* _When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment._ Female slaves only go free after their masters are tired of raping them daily, or they forget to feed them for a few days… Hebrew only… More racism! *Deuteronomy 20;10-14* NIV *10* _When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace._ *11* _If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you._ *12* _If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city._ *13* _When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it._ *14* _As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the Lord your God gives you from your enemies._ Oh look. Human plunder, and some christians dare to tell me the hebrews never kidnapped their slaves. I wonder what they'd call this, these so-called experts on their own holy scriptures. And let's see the new testament: *Ephesians 6;5 NLT* _Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ._ *1 Timothy 6;1:* NIV *1* _All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect, so that God’s name and our teaching may not be slandered._ Nope, nothing about abolishing slavery here. Hell, they want christian slaves to be good little slaves so their rules aren't slandered. The sad fact is that antibellum slave owners used the bible to justify the practice of owning human beings and beating the shit out of them. Here's what it says about how you treat your human property: *Exodus 21;20-21 NAB* _When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property._ Slavery is evil. I've seen christians say it was not. Now, because you do not understand basic logic or science, "Survival of the fittest" does not mean that the strong dominate the weak. It means that those organisms that are best adapted to their environment survive preferentially over those that are not well adapted. That's all it means. It was never meant to be taken as a social construct. Might does not make right. As for the conquest rape, so it is not forgotten: *Numbers 31;17-18* *17* _"Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately._ *18* _"But all the girls who have not known man intimately, spare for yourselves._ You may say that your slavery loving god is good, but as I have said: Slavery is evil, and thus so is your god for only ever endorsing the practice and never condemning it. Now, if you look at these genociding mass-murderers as people who think that might makes right, why do you think your god only had them spare the pre-teen virgins? (Remember how young they married in this culture, and how they considered women property.) Were they being merciful? No, because they killed all of the baby boys and old women. Were they throwing these little girls tea-parties? No, these were genociding mass-murderers who thought they had a powerful, sex-obsessed misogynist of a god on their side. No, these were men with no understanding of the basic human rights of others, including their own women. They only saved the pre-teen girls for their virginity. The passage makes that quite clear. Why else would they do that except that they get to deflower them in rape?

[@Arkloyd]

@Richard Ball It seems he ran away and deleted his post rather than admit that he worships an _obviously_ evil god. Either that or he blocked me.

[@repent.sinner]

Truth is, God is real

[@TheZeroAssassin]

I like how nervous Don looked ever since Matt said "The proposition that Matt strangled Don" :P

[@somerandom3247]

I look forward to the video you mentioned about the nature of evidence

[@argonnas01]

@David Parry godoids. Best race to play as in DnD

[@n0w3lly90]

That's a good call, and Fred was a good caller... good, reasonable conversation

[@coletrickle1775]

The bible is exactly as much evidence as Harry Potter is 2000 years from now.

[@jamesniagu274]

Can you imagine if a religion started from that lol

[@teamatfort444]

@@jamesniagu274 might actually happen, if they find harry potter books in 2000 years they may think it actually happened

[@ledrash6079]

@@teamatfort444 "In the year 2000, they could do magic! wow, we have lost so much spiritual powers over the years with our technology!"

[@ak99uk]

A ginger kid with two friends? Sure...

[@coletrickle1775]

@@ledrash6079 That is scary it sounds so plausible.

[@secularsean6062]

"Thanks for being a bleeding heart" "Those are the ones that work" Matt Dillahunty for the win

[@Cyba_IT]

Thanks to Fred, and of course Matt and Don, this video has some of the best arguments for atheism. Thanks Fred

[@ericmishima]

I've been searching for a clip from the show that is short and covers the basics well to send to my brother. I picked this one. We'll see how our discussion goes after he watches the clip.

[@Cyba_IT]

@@ericmishima I don't know how anyone can still rationally have faith after watching TAE for a while and indeed having access to the internet. Keep us updated on how the discussion went man :)

[@Evaese]

"approach things with an open mind" your on the right path Fred!

[@dukeemzworth3005]

“Gods are fragile things, they may be killed by a whiff of science or a dose of common sense. They thrive on servility and shrink before independence. They feed upon worship as Kings do upon flattery. That is why the cry of the Gods at all times is “Worship us or we perish.” ..... Chapman Cohen.

[@Gary4DLC]

Isn't it grat when actually reasonable people like this man appear? It gives me some hope lol

[@nosuchthing8]

Most of the people motivated to call this show are hard core theists worried their club might dissappear

[@Doppe1ganger]

Oh Fred, you're a good guy. I think what Fred is struggling with is, he believes in God, yet acknowledges that all arguments and reason say that he shoudn't, but he still does believe. He's atleast honest in that he doesn't lie about the arguments and reasoning, but what to do if you have a strong feeling or urge. I myself am a atheist that even objects to the idea of a god, but i can empathize as i believe in many things that aren't based on reasoning or arguments (atleast not ones i am aware of, not saying there aren't). It's difficult

[@oscaramaya115]

I mean... We all gotta start somewhere.

[@mr.wrongthink.1325]

We can dismiss bible as evidence of god. Here is why: If the bible is the perfect, immutable word of god, it cannot contain internal contradictions, false scientific claims, and false historical accounts. But bible is full of it.

[@jeremysorel9188]

Andy H exept nobody made that claim, we’re not talking about islam here (im atheist btw)

[@leewatson6599]

Andy H and everything comes from nothing. Listen to what your saying.

[@mr.wrongthink.1325]

@@leewatson6599 I don't know how everything came to exist, and you don't know either. "My god did it" is the stupid assumption. There may be a creator that created everything long time ago and doesn't even know we exist. Or there is afterlife and no god. Or many gods and no afterlife. You can't possibly know that.

[@hithere7080]

@@jeremysorel9188 lots of people do... Constantly

[@jeremysorel9188]

hi there yeah in 2 months i figured that out

[@Gwaithmir]

"Faith is often the boast of a man who is too lazy to investigate.” (F.M. Knowles)

[@jerichoj1540]

He was so open minded and a very great listener. Rare to see nowadays. Kudos to him!

[@michaelwoodsdale460]

I appreciate how - when a “good faith” conversationalist calls in - the tenor of the exchange changes immediately

[@korganrocks3995]

Yeah, people who complain about how rude they are to callers should watch this video and see that they're perfectly polite toward honest callers.

[@deskelly9313]

Fred has started a very significant journey today

[@camelxravennova]

This is the most relieving episode I’ve seen by them, Fred is so reasonable!

[@Longtack55]

"Reasonable" - meaning "reasoned, thoughtful and intelligent."

[@scottsmith1455]

Matt is a Logical Man! He actually thinks things through, what a concept!

[@weserwin3430]

Thank you Fred, for taking the time to calmly hear what the other side is saying and not just come on with a lot of puff and blow and no real evidence. This was a truly enjoyable conversation.

[@HotelierNYC]

Three cheers for Fred!

[@shanewilson7994]

This was a really good call. Was a good conversation where people listened.

[@tommystyx]

So god only exists if we believe in him. If god dies will he come back to life if we clap our hands, like in the play Peter Pan when the audience saves Tinkerbell by clapping?

[@heyitsdrew]

no. God exists irregardless. the reason why God has not been observed by scientists, which would be proor for his existence, is because the true God ( of the bible ) isn't looking for us to "believe" in him or not he is really looking for us to come back to him and love him. if you had absolute proof for Gods existence then did not love him back or follow or listen to him, what would be the point of God giving you the evidence that he exists? if you've read the bible and read exodus, then you would know even the Israelites saw and experienced God yet turned their backs on him. and what was Gods reaction? to put them to death. that would be your fate as well.

[@John_Demarco]

"So god only exists if we believe in him. If god dies will he come back to life if we clap our hands..." Here's a better question: If humans all die does God stop existing? After all, no other life forms believe in him. If his existence is directly tied to our existence, obviously he is a man-made concept.

[@John_Demarco]

​@@heyitsdrew "...the true God isn't looking for us to "believe" in him or not." Obviously he does. Our salvation depends on it. Why else would he punish us eternally for not believing? Why would he hide from us and then torture us for not finding him? And why would he reward people who claim to see him but obviously can't? Why would he reward blind love and punish true devotion?

[@duffduffington843]

@@heyitsdrew What would be the point of 'god' hiding his existence? You just stated that the Israelites (somehow) had definitive proof of 'god's' existence, yet they turned away. Seems to me hiding is pointless. We're going to follow, if we choose to follow & not, if we don't. Regardless, of insincere followers that an all knowing god would definitely be able to weed out.

[@oscargordon]

Don might have been thinking of Star Trek “Who mourns for Adonis”. At least that is the earliest example of gods needing worshippers to survive that I can think of.

[@PreviouslyDelicious]

Is it just me or are these calls a million times better and more enjoyable to watch than the ones that get all heated?

[@jerryv9453]

Finally honest theist.

[@seannelson3613]

That's probably my favorite AXP video. Just really wholesome.

[@freddelarsson4434]

I don't believe in the gods' existence. Man is the master of his own fate, not the gods. The gods are man's creation, to give answers that they are too afraid to give themselves. -- Ragnar Lodbrok

[@shannakelly490]

Beautiful call. Thank you, Matt.

[@lennysmith8851]

This was actually a very productive call!

[@pfeilspitze]

Kudos to this guy for being willing to honestly answer Matt's questions, and not just do the usual theist tapdance.

[@sousay2000]

This caller is prove that some sheep can be saved before the shepherd kills them

[@TheMitchmills]

Good on you Fred, kudos for your open mind and honesty.

[@aikhis]

walking on water is also not that special of a claim... I'm Canadian and every winter i walk on water.... I've walked over 2 km down the center of a river. I've seen squirrels, beavers, fox,wolves, deer and more all walked on top of water, there is a tv show about trucks driving ona road of water, Its not special.

[@klaxoncow]

I think the most crucial aspect of "walking on water", though, is that it's a rather pointless conjuring trick. "I am the Lord thy God! Thou shalt have none before me!" "Really? Why should I believe you?" "Ah, allow me to demonstrate. I can walk on water. Impressive, huh? Also, if you choose a card - any card - then show it to the audience, but not me, I can tell you that... wait a minute... your card is the 6 of clubs! I can also saw people in half in a box and put them back together, if you've not seen that one before." "Praise be! Hallelujah! He is truly the Creator of the universe! Or maybe he's just David Blaine or something. One of the two. Do you know that David Copperfield thing where he walks through the Great Wall of China? Can you do that one?" Now, raising Lazarus from the dead. That's god-level magic, for sure. But turning water into wine? That's just a party trick. Street magician stuff. Actually, Lazarus is the sticking point. Because I had this idea a while back that I call "the Jesus challenge" and the simple idea is to recreate all of Jesus's "miracles" using conjuring tricks, modern technology or lateral thinking. The tricky one is Lazarus. Though, you know, people are resuscitated from the dead often in hospitals - but doing it to order for fulfilling "the Jesus challenge" would be ethically unacceptable. Like asking someone if you can temporarily kill them to practice your CPR wouldn't really be a valid approach, in keeping with the fun nature of the challenge, I don't feel. And modern medicine has made it so the blind could see. So that one is at least theoretically possible, but the idea of "the Jesus challenge" is that one person emulates all of the miracles of Jesus, so you'd have to have someone capable and legally qualified to do the surgery and stuff. That's another ethical stumbling block. Mind you, per the rules of "the Jesus challenge", you only have to make it seem real and don't necessarily have to actually do it for real. Conjuring tricks are fully permitted. As long as your "witnesses" can testify, in written form, that they totally believe you really did "perform a miracle" to have Biblical-level evidence of your deeds - well, it was good enough for Jesus, so it's good enough to satisfy "the Jesus challenge". Bonus points are awarded for dubiously "fulfilling the prophecies" that you're the Messiah. Inventing a mad "census" that weirdly requires people to journey to their home towns, rather than just adding a "home town?" question to the census form - which never happened by the census authority's records, because no-one has ever run a census in such a logistically impractical fashion in all of human history - will earn you the bonus title of "King of Kings", where you get a novelty "crown of thorns" to wear. But, no, seriously - as a magician like Matt could probably even demonstrate - the majority of these "miracles" could be easily emulated with a few simple conjuring tricks from a good street magician. Which, I don't know about you, seems like a kind of trivial thing for living god kings to be doing in their spare time. (Much less the contradiction of this. "But God doesn't provide evidence, as he wants you to have faith". Well, yeah, unless you were around in Bible times, then God was perfectly happy to intervene constantly, and very directly provide evidence - such as these conjuring tricks - to convince everyone that he was God. But now that we can record this stuff and scientifically test its validity... oh, suddenly God's not wanting to show off anymore. Isn't that odd?)

[@slickestrick4117]

@@klaxoncow "Actually, Lazarus is the sticking point...." Nah, dead used to mean "their heart and breathing has stopped" but now we have machines that can help us deal with that, so dead has become "when the brain dies". By the biblical understanding of "dead" we've been resurrecting people for ages ;). On top of that anyone can learn how to bring people back under certain conditions in a few hours (cpr), so "miracles" can suck it.

[@sdozer1990]

I really enjoyed watching this video and especially listening too Matt talk personally about his progression from believer to atheist based on not being convinced about the bible and claims made by believers. It was enlightening and refreshing to discover. :) Also, Fred was the BOMB!

[@Phoenix-King-ozai]

Callers like these gives me Hope Even faith, lol

[@herbertpronk6709]

Good discussies. Loved it.

[@ericmishima]

Much listens.

[@huskymcfluff]

The book mentioned may have been Terry Pratchett's "Small Gods". Great book.

[@russbeers9613]

Great discussion!

[@MrXMOMO]

Matt is a national treasure. YOU, SIR ARE A NATIONAL TREASURE. A true gift to humanity. Thank you sir

[@kastric6000]

One of the best calls I've ever listened to. Great caller, interesting dialog.

[@SomethingLegit1]

"Observing" is a misleading term. The actual term is "interracting". It's the interraction with a particle that collapses it to an eigenstate, bot an observation. It has nothing to do with consciousness. For all intents and purposes, when a photin hits an electron and transfers it its energy, the electron collapses the electron's wave function to a single eigenstate. All of that said, this concept is a quantum concept and applies only at that scale. It does not apply to the classical scale which is where we humans are at.

[@TheFullNEWS]

I like this caller so much !!!

[@fusionsportdaily1650]

Fred sounds like he isn't being open minded. It sounds like he is getting a final answer to leaving his religion. All Christians do is preach and he was not trying to force his beliefs.

[@petebetz5358]

Run for your life. Don!

[@dragonhealer7588]

Hundreds of thousands Were injured or killed in the writing of this book. Animals too.

[@rickydarcilover5581]

Dragonhealer . No little baby’s heads were spared in the writing of this book.

[@nathanielgreen5329]

It’s always wonderful hearing people with an open mind who are willing to listen to reason and cling to beliefs

[@blindwatchmaker2345]

A theist that actually listens.... I have hope in humanity again! 😁😉

[@S.Ladd67]

You guys make a lot of sense, and I wish more people would start opening their minds.

[@shootingstar5359]

Don is thinking 🤔"OMG I think Matt wants to strangle me!"😲

[@kyleisaacson4852]

I came for Don's chuckling

[@jamesparson]

6:02 "Is there any position that you could not justify with faith"

[@vio2112]

I hope you've come here and read all the comments Fred. All us atheists loved your call. You rock.

[@GarethLazelle]

"the bible is evidence, just not compelling evidence. "

[@jeanettey713]

The bible is literature....therefore evidence of nothing. The Complete Works of Shakespeare are literature too. Shakespeare wrote a story-play about King Lear...but that's no evidence about what Lear had for breakfast. Harry Potter, Peter Pan (the book...Very different from the Disney version), Emily Dickinson's poetry and the Complete Works of Robert Frost are all literature or literary in nature. The bible is a source of claims and presents no evidence whatsoever.

[@richardsarabi4947]

This caller is what the show needs more of!

[@Invernessmagic]

That quantum consciousness hypothesis is the basis of religion in Terry Pratchett's Discworld series. Best portrayed in the book Small God's. GNU pTerry

[@bluedragonfly8139]

'Small Gods' by Terry Pratchett has the 'god needs prayers' trope as the main plot. Awesome read.

[@Alakaizer]

Terry Pratchett's Small Gods is a book I'd recommend, especially in this case.

[@derwolf9670]

What a great call! Please call back, Fred...

[@argonnas01]

If you stop believing in a god he stops to exist. Can someone say warhammer40k with me?

[@Werrf1]

@ Big E apparently thought so. Are you questioning Big E? Because that sounds like Heresy to me...

[@Nissenov]

BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD. DEATH TO THE FALSE EMPEROR.

[@littlehouseinthebigapple5716]

Also reminds me a bit of American Gods

[@hegyak]

@@Nissenov SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE!

[@brothersanguinary9072]

This comment has been marked as heresy and you have been chosen for Exterminatus.

[@dungeonmasterblaster5600]

Wholesome. Absolutely food for my soul.

[@happilyeggs4627]

Terry Pratchett, "Small Gods", deals with what happens when people stop believing in a particular god. It is hugely entertaining and hilarious. I would advise anyone to read it.

[@DragonHeart-cm1tx]

This Fred gentleman is incredible! You got this Nephew!

[@petyrkowalski9887]

If the bible is evidence for god, then Harry Potter is evidence for magic.

[@facetiouslyinsolent8313]

A descent human for once, what a nice, reasonable and respectable man. I'm definitely rooting for Fred.

[@8mycake244]

Faith is hoping that something you want to be true is true. That's it.

[@tedgrant2]

The end is not nigh, but it is inevitable.

[@johnlopperman2161]

Bible as evidence for god. Yeah, just as comic books are evidence for Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, etc...

[@prothewful]

Love Don

[@raymondstemmer2051]

It's so nice that God told us all about himself 2000 + years ago when almost everyone was illiterate ! He picked goat farmers to tell in an age of no media ! He seems mighty shy & seems to make allot of mistakes. He blames his creations for what they do ! What a shame !

[@markwoods4439]

The reasoning is strong with you Fred! It’s good to hear conversations like this instead of a theist threatening you with hell and torture.

[@bozhidarbalkas7269]

I know that a few Hebrews wrote Hebraic word [OT] and a few Judeans wrote the Jewish word [NT]. But i will not ever know if what they wrote was dictated by God to them or that he merely inspired them. The question arises, Why would an all peoples' loving God, only talk to just a few people--and only to Hebrews and Jews?

[@raysalmon6566]

Messianic prophecies would not be possible without inspiration

[@raysalmon6566]

New testament doesn't teach eminence of end times

[@wwlib5390]

Bozhidar Balkas: God is able to speak to all people - in fact there a many modern accounts of Jesus speaking and revealing Himself to muslims and non-believers (as well as believers) all over the world. With that said - The OT is an account of God's leading from one man (Adam) to one offspring (Seth) to one family (Noah, his wife and 3 sons/wives) to one particular son (Shem) to eventually the man chosen to begin a new nation (Abraham) -- God promised Abraham would be the 'father of many nations' and that through His seed the whole world would be blessed. That was fulfilled through His son Isaac, through whom, eventually would come the Messiah - Jesus. Because Jesus was born into the tribe of Judah, He was a "Jew"; and since the Jews rejected Him as their Messiah and didn't recognize the fulfillments of their many scriptural prophecies, they demanded He be crucified - His death and resurrection took place at their feast of Passover, Unleavened Bread and First Fruits. For punishment God turned (temporarily) away from Israel and the Jews and turned His grace upon the rest of the world - the Gentile nations - and 50 days after His death, His Holy Spirit was poured out on the disciples (believers of the day) on the Feast of Pentecost; this was the establishment of the 'church' - tho that word has evolved into the religions we have today, many of which are not teaching the gospel message of salvation.; But with the coming of Paul as recorded in the Book of Acts - the message of salvation was brought to the whole world - and it continues today - Jesus' death paid the penalty for each person's sins and rebellion, so that all who believe will not perish but have everlasting life. God's promise to Abraham that he would bless all nations is being fulfilled even today, as new believers put their trust and hope in Jesus daily - God is not interested in religion - He wants a relationship with each person - one where we are invited to know Him (and hear from Him). He is a whisper away. The Gospel message can be found in John 3:16 - and the whole gospel of John. I hope this comment speaks to your heart. Have a good day.

[@voodooprophet]

@@wwlib5390 Why would God punish the Jews for helping bring about the endgame of something God wanted to happen?

[@wwlib5390]

@@voodooprophet Brian Vaughan: The punishment God placed upon the Jews after they rejected Him was spiritual blindness - to this day the Jews are still waiting for the promised Messiah, having not recognized His first coming over 2,000 years ago. God always planned to have the whole world (all those who choose Him) included in His kingdom. Scripture tells us God works in an orderly way: and His way, in this instance is - first to the Jews, then to the Gentiles. The completion of His plan to include all nations in His kingdom is no different. But human nature also plays a part: Israel was called God’s Chosen People - eventually this led them to embrace a certain sense of 'entitlement’ arrogance', and superiority’ over the other nations, and eventually to a state of hard-heartedness that led to an inability to recognize their own God. So God 'removed' Himself from them, and reached out to the rest of the world, as planned. The Spiritual blindness the Jews have been punished with will create a ‘holy jealousy’ when they realize the Gentiles 'got it and understood’ before they did, and this will cause them to turn back to God (they will mourn and see the One that they pierced) at the Second Coming. Just as with us now, if we turn to Him and believe He died for us, we can enter His Kingdom; so then, those Jews who finally recognize Him and are humbled before Him will enter as well. That's the way God chose to do it in His wisdom. I thank Him, because I may never have heard the Gospel message which is written and available to all in John 3:16 (God so loved the world that He gave His only Son that whoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life.) Have a great evening.

[@nicolea8013]

That was painless. Good job.

[@paimannamazi3064]

If I ever had to sum it all up, this would be it. This.... 10:34

[@viraldashboard7936]

love the product placement Matt!

[@JamesRichardWiley]

Valid evidence would consist of a universal appearance by Yahweh and his crucified son, Yeshua. The dynamic duo could easily accomplish this at any time but it would spoil the game.

[@johnreader8510]

We believe in you Fred!

[@1urie1]

Considering the quantum consciousness thing, it's an artifact from the ages of early quantum mechanics times when people were shocked by what they found, since it was so alien from everyday-scale physics. The observation part is now overwhelmingly believed to be, simply put, an interaction with some other particle, rather than necessitating being observed by a conscious mind.

[@Cxeri93]

I take my hat off for Fred for being a very respectful caller.

[@markhackett2302]

He's wrong about quantum superposition. Quantum theory does away with points. It isn't that things are in all positions, it's that the idea of "position" is as meaningless as "10" when you only say "it's not base 10 maths". It definitely doesn't require a physical observer. The quantum particles interact and THAT is enough to collapse to a single state. It's called "Decoherence".

[@markhackett2302]

@Pichkalu Pappita Well, it's hard to get your head around, so no diss to "not getting it". However, what IS blame worthy is taking some woomancer's claims about quantum theories (like Wu or Dinesh) as if they were actually supported by a theory they know they don't really understand.

[@watsxn]

omg dude, watching you dunk of theologians is so much fun

[@MostlyBuicks]

So towards the end here, God is like Puff The Magic Dragon?

[@barrythomson899]

I have photographic proof that I walked on water. Admittedly the water was frozen.