Big Conversation on Same-Sex Attraction and Sin (w/ Rosaria Butterfield)

[@lizkingbradley]

When Jesus can change water into wine, He can erase the body memories too. This has been my experience. Molested as a child, have had a wonderful intimate relationship in marriage and God erased the memories from my body.

[@bethwarddesigns]

I love listening to Rosaria. Her testimony is powerful.

[@m.gattus-reinhart845]

@@lizkingbradley From personal experience, having been raped myself is not a predetermine factor whether one can have a fulfilling a meaningful relationship through marriage or otherwise. Likewise I also understand, from others, who went through such things as well, everyone is not at the same place, so their perspectives will be different. With that said being sexually abused in one form or another by someone of the same sex is not to be associated with someone's orientation. Such abuses occur because of power and dominance over that of another. To conflate one of the most vile and heinous acts done unto another with the orientation of another puts others who have done nothing wrong in harms way. I have friends who are gay and unfortunately because of this flagrant lie that is being perpetuated they have been targeted with violence both verbal and physical. As a Jew, I know what it's like to be called "Christ Killer." Every generation born into this world since Jesus was crucified, by the Romans, has been blamed for killing Christ and because of such ideologies we were and still are demonized, dehumanized, marginalized, ostracized and killed. I just don't seem to understand certain Christians who are never happy unless they're kicking the shit out of someone else, physically, psychologically or spiritually.

[@tbong9293]

Me to

[@TheWayWalker]

Praise the Lord

[@briannadarling9645]

Thank you so much for this discussion! I'm new to Rosaria Butterfield and recently started crawling my way out of The United Church of Christ after it almost ruined my marriage and family and am getting back to my conservative Christian roots. I am so thankful that the Lord put it on her heart to have the courage to share her story and stand up for the Truth.

[@lyndigiorgio261]

I love how Rosaria ALWAYS goes to the word of God it’s not about what man says. Thank you Rosaria.

[@Agent.99]

We are to take EVERY thought captive… Our thoughts can be sinful, even when we don’t act on them. Great points! I love how Rosaria always brings it back to Gods True Word and she is intellectual and fact based, not appealing to emotions, as the other side does. I have a soft spot in my heart for Rosaria, as my uncle is the pastor Ken Smith that showed her Christ through hospitality, dinners, and discussions along with my Aunt Floy. It is beautiful to see the fruit of my Aunt and Uncle’s labors and and now it comes full circle as she learned from my uncle and now I learn from Rosaria. My Niece (Uncle Ken’s grandniece) attends Liberty University and saw Rosaria speak at the convocation there Nov 2023. The effects of Uncle Ken, Aunt Floy, and Rosaria’s work continues to bless our family. ❤️

[@LivEnLearn24]

This is so cool!

[@bridgetgolubinski]

Sean, thank you so much for this conversation. Deeply thinking through these issues right now and I appreciated your questions so much

[@paulajames6149]

Heard this scripture from Alisa Childers…”For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there will be disorder and every vile practice.” ‭‭James‬ ‭3‬:‭16‬ ‭ESV‬‬

[@Bioboy590]

Key word=practice. She conflates practice with desire.

[@straleycaldwell]

⁠ 14 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. 15 Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death. James 1:14-16

[@titikkoma8586]

1 JOHN 1 : 8. if we claim we do not have any sins we deceive ourselves and the truth is not on us ..// shalom🤭

[@monicanavarro2906]

​@@Bioboy590 Jealousy and selfish ambition are in the heart and they're sins too.

[@KHS1993]

The aesthetic orientation part was so good! Spot on!

[@peggyhamlin3683]

Everyone has a pet sin they need to repent of. Is yours gossip? Is it self righteousness? Is it sexual? Is it glottony? If every person who calls themselves Christian could hate their sins and take all their sins to Jesus on a moment by moment day by day basis, the church would be led by the Spirit and would be changed. Can we all "hunger and thurst for righteousness"? Lord Jesus, please bring us all to repentence!!! I want my holiness to only come from Him! I don't want my work to fix what is wrong with me. I only want His work. Praise His holy name!!!

[@principleswise9749]

*Amén! Well said!*

[@dalewier9735]

As a pastor, I agree with you. Right now, we are being told and are being required to accept the sin of lesbianism and homosexuality as being neutral or good whereas I don't hear anyone claiming gossip, self-righteousness, or gluttony being a good thing or a neutral act or motivation. Yes we all have "pet" sin BUT to make same sex attraction just another sin is being overly simplistic and not exactly scriptural. Add to this, the question that Romans 1:18-32 raises: same sex sin is listed as proof of God having given someone up, raising this question: can these sins, once accepted as normal or just another sin, be repented of.

[@peggyhamlin3683]

I'm not saying that homosexualty is just another sin. You misunderstood. I'm just saying that if we each hated our own sins as much as we hate someone else's sin, then we can be more prepared to offer a way out for our same sex attracted brothers and sisters. We ALL put limits on how much God can change us and make us whole when we don't hate our own sin. How can we ask someone else to hate their sin if we can't do it either? We have to let God take the plank out of our own eyes first. If the church can do that, revival will come. It is our only hope.

[@m.gattus-reinhart845]

@@dalewier9735 Why are certain Christians never happy unless they're kicking the shit out of someone else, physically, psychologically or spiritually? Why do Christians often point to another and never themselves first? We're told not to close the doors unto others likewise we are not to be hypocrites, blind fools or venomous snakes, right? We are called to be the tax collector, right? Is it just me or some have forgotten that it is not our place to put ourselves before God because God will condemn just as quickly and judge by the same measure? Is it not our job to show mercy just as the good Samaritan did for another or should we be the priest and the Levitite who looks down on others? Are we not called to love thy neighbor and our enemy or perceived notion of? How are we supposed to follow the Gospels when others much prefer to live by the letters of Paul? And if they should live by Paul's letters shouldn't they too hold up celibacy and not procreation? If everyone is a sinner what business is it of ours especially if that's between ourselves and God? Since there are 45,000 Christian denominations in the world today, shouldn't we be a little more open to the faith of others without being so defensive of our own? Why must Christians find the need to change others without changing themselves first? I don't seem to understand how others choose to hate not inspite of their love of Christ, that they would show hatred to others but because of it. This attitude continues to spread in Christian political culture, loving ones' enemy is seen as weak and contemptible unless love looks like putting a stop to their sin through imprisonment or violence. (See Project 2025) Many who have left their respective denominations because they do not associate Christ with love or mercy, HE is rather what motivates hatred and cruelty. If I can pick up my cross, some need to relearn what it means to pick up theirs.

[@m.gattus-reinhart845]

@@peggyhamlin3683 It's only the hetereo-normative who declares what is or isn't. One's orientation is not a choice, no one chooses to be hated, demonized, dehumanized, marginalized, ostracized, scapegoated as much as they are. Christians have done this before with the Jews, now it's just someone else. My brother is gay but chooses to remain celibate and he's still hated. My brother is not a Sodomite, because that is a lie perpetuated by the church. Genesis 19 is about inhospitality and the attempted gang rape of angels. Leviticus is about sexual acts. Romans 1 is about idolatrous sexual practices of polytheists. Arsenokoitai literally means "men" "beds" not homosexuality as the word homosexuality was not a word until 1868 and wasn't added into the Bibles until 1946. When arsenokoitai is used in other sources of the time it refers to economic sexual immortality or male prostitution. Some Christians today would much rather be the Pharisee by being the hypocrite, the blind fool and venomous snake. Overall some just need to relearn how to pick up their cross.

[@HappyHolyHealthyLife]

This is such an interesting conversation! I've never heard of concupiscence, but something about her explanation really rings true! 🙏🏽

[@Deut-kn8qy]

Thank you for this interview Sean. It is getting and probably will continue to get harder and harder to hear these perspectives. I appreciate your having this conversation!

[@mawrawmiller561]

Much better clarifying Rosario than previous interviews. Thank you ❤️🙏

[@JasonDBennett]

I can be tempted to lust without actually lusting. And when tempted to lust, I can resist the temptation in the power of the Spirit or give in to the temptation and sin by lusting. I am not sinning by being tempted to lust. I'm sinning if I lust.

[@EphSix12]

Except that Jesus himself stated that it starts in the heart. Meaning it's not action based. Acting on it is just the magnified mockery of God

[@JasonDBennett]

​@@EphSix12 The temptation to lust comes from my old sin nature. That's not me anymore; I've been born again! My old sin nature may desire illicit sex, but my new nature in Christ does not.

[@elizabethcockrill1991]

The difference is in repentance.

[@JasonDBennett]

​@@elizabethcockrill1991 Rosaria says people have already sinned by being tempted to engage in illicit sex, whether internally or externally. She is working TOWARD her salvation; I am ALREADY saved because of Jesus. Saying no to the promptings of my old sin nature is not repentance from sin, it is resisting temptation.

[@dominicgriego6073]

Agreed, even Jesus was tempted in every way that we are, yet without sin

[@OfficialJamesBrummett]

@SeanMcdowell thank you for this second interview. I benefited from it more than your first conversation with Rosaria. The first felt more confrontational.

[@simmo8u]

Awesome content presented with humility clarity and a sound understanding of biblical doctrine

[@paulbruderer5442]

Thank for this open and deep conversation. Thank you Sean for being a really good listener. It is making me think again about things. One question if I may: How would you (Rosaria) view Jesus' Temptation in the categories that you use? If our temptations are 'inner sin' - how can Jesus be tempted like we were, yet without sin? The temptation mentioned in Hebrews surely is a way to tell us: he was similar to us? But then he was without sin? So did Christ's temptations have a different quality to ours then? But that would remove him from human proximity to us. What's your thinking on this? And yes please continue this conversation. Very helpful

[@sovereigngodlisaloves9525]

I think they have a view of Christ's temptations as being external, not born from within.

[@RikardRynoson]

Very helpful! Thank you for the conversation and God bless.

[@MariaKneas]

Thank you, Sean. I love Rosaria. I'm praying for both of you.

[@ruthtirado2750]

James 1:13-15 totally substantiates this argument. If our desire and lust is the start of it, it is also a part of it.

[@paulajames6149]

Thank you Rosario for staying in the fight. Your clarity is very helpful.

[@EmWarEl]

It is really critical to ask people to use biblical terms rather than importing theological language that has been filled with centuries of commentary. As a Calvinist, Rosaria is preoccupied with "indwelling sin", like it's cancer. Some of her tribe think of it like a cancer passed on from fallen parents, and they have all kinds of ideas about it. All of that stuff, our "sin nature" etc., is just our "flesh". We are human beings, and we are vulnerable to temptation, and we have to resist our human impulses to get what we want, how we want, when we want. As fallen creatures, we are at a disadvantage to Adam and Eve. But Adam and Eve sinned, because they were HUMAN. They sinned just like James describes in his epistle. The solution is Spirit. We walk in the Spirit. We set our minds on things above. We take every thought captive. But we are still human, and that will not change in this life. We will have total victory in some areas, and much struggle in others. Paul is exasperated by this reality. "For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body you will live." Romans 8:13. Notice that it is DEEDS, not passing thoughts and temptations. By cultivating a life focused on the Spirit, we can have victory over temptation. But nothing in Scripture ever promises that we are going to be impeccably free from temptation of any kind. We need to read more Bible and less Puritan theology.

[@bethwarddesigns]

The only thing I agree with you is "read your Bible". That's the only place Truth is found.

[@nancybenich4442]

In reading a brief description of Bostock vs. Clayton County, I do not see that kids are being told they have to “empathize” with what it’s like to be transgender. The decision upheld the right of LBGTQ people to live and work without fear of harassment, exclusion, and discrimination. Seems like the bottom line is that we’re being asked to be kind. I can’t empathize with them but I can be reasonable and friendly.

[@TitusCastiglione1503]

“We need to read more Bible and less Puritan theology. How does this not ultimately mean “I think my theology is closer to the Bible than hers?” We all have theological bias, wherever we want to admit it or not. This affects how we interpret scripture. Why do many just not admit that?

[@gummylens5465]

Indwelling sin is shorthand for Paul's description of his unchosen sin in Romans 7. God bless,

[@snw7]

What an absolutely fascinating and convicting discussion. This is great.

[@paulajames6149]

My daughter’s school called me to approve her taking a cough drop and yet if she chooses to transition I would not hear from them. It is maddening.

[@jphjackson]

@RosariaButterfield I have a question...if attraction is culpable sin where does "temptation" begin and end? Is temptation more of a fleeting thought and so if it goes to attraction that means that I've harbored that thought which is sin? I'm not sure where the dividing line is in terms of temptation and sin based on what Rosaria was saying.

[@themagicman1986]

This is a good point. Was trying to pinpoint my concerns with her comments and this hits the nail on the head.

[@jphjackson]

@@themagicman1986 Since I left this comment, I have since heard it said that temptation is external to us....ex. Joseph and Potiphar's wife. We flee temptation. Culpable sin is internal (which eventually comes out in action) and must be repented of and put off. That was helpful to me.

[@themagicman1986]

@@jphjackson good definitions.

[@lydiabouts8572]

Jesus tells us that even hating our brother in our heart is murder...that lusting after a woman is adultery...He takes the Law into our heart's desires. It stands to reason that Rosaria's point is true.

[@astrongmama]

"You're very special, and we love you, but you're not THAT special." I love Rosaria Butterfield so much. I find it interesting how many people who have never walked the road tell her that she is wrong about where the road goes. She has walked the road. She knows where it goes. As one who hasn't walked it and doesn't know its twists and turns, I am grateful to her for the plain and open way she navigates it for us. Because of her, I have deeper discernment on this issue. I can point to her very loving and empathetic teaching when it arises.

[@markalbis1543]

i believe in the two natures of the Christian(the sinful nature and the new nature). a christian is operating in the sinful nature of he/she yields to temptation. ex. SSA. He/she is operating in the new nature if he/she doesn't yield to temptation. Rom. 13:14,

[@Andreamom001]

Attraction is a complex biological, emotional thing. People can’t control it. I can’t see how something that isn’t under our conscious control is a sin. If someone is born with their hormones or brain chemistry out of whack, how is that a sin? What evidence or reasoning does she have to show that feeling attraction to someone inappropriate is “indwelling sin”?

[@amalek2750]

Intersexed people exist. Whether the church wants to acknowledge their reality or not is another matter. The closest correlation I have heard is to compare intersexed people to eunuchs. When left without intersexed people in the Bible, the next closest analogy would be a eunuch for some. Some Christians cannot handle that God made male and female back in the Garden, and then these pesky intersexed people show up!(Said with humor and grace.)

[@cathy7382]

I totally agree with you she fails to have a balanced view of people like me who have for the majority of my life have had same sex attractions and in my opinion just loads on the guilt I think Jesus understands all of our struggles I'm glad that He can sympathize with us if one repents over attractions and not develop heterosexual attractions as she has then you're in some kind of nether land

[@glenliesegang233]

Sin is any natural process which produces pleasure (or, avoidance of pain) in the short run but damages the individual and the people connected to that individual, ultimately moving the entire history of humanity in a more fallen, more damaged and pain-fliied world, further from receiving the blessings God intended. Lust is sexual desire without seeing, knowing that the object of one's lust is a person who bears the Image of God, and does not deserve the long-trem consequences of action on those sexual desires. Why is "hooking up" or living together or "monogomish or open marriage "sin"? Why shouldn't the Church accept these as the new norms and "Get off of condrmnation" and "Get over the outmoded, archaic beliefs that morality does not change with time and culture." Is there any evidence a secular person should know about which has a bearing on whether these sexual unions should be fully accepted as "normal" and should not have societal condemnatiin or discouragement and our young educated to shun them? Look up the statistics, which the CDC and WHO have collected and what analysis of the data shows. I think the CDC statistics speak volumes. I think the emotional and physical suffering, especially in women, which results from open sexuality, with abortion carrying its own long term consequences, when analyzed scientifically, clearly demonstrates that to follow sexual desire outside of long-term, committed intimacy, has severely painful long term damage. Why is societal and church blessings of same sex unions in the same way as traditional marriage?

[@paulajames6149]

Sin is “missing the mark”. Scriptures and Rosario stated that desire is a “sin”. It is not for our good and our flourishing.

[@fhengal]

A good part of the answer to this is not just looking at attraction alone, but also foregrounding how one views attraction, based on the kinds of things the Bible says can happen to a person and how sin (not just the sins we consciously choose but also being born post-Fall and living with those consequences that affect everything about how we live from day to day) affects us. It's also based on the definition of what sin is. To make an analogy, people who have been diagnosed with depression can't necessarily control whether they are depressed. However, most people who experience depression would not say that it's a good thing, nor would they choose to be depressed. After all, clinical depression is a mental illness; it's not considered desirable or the ideal of healthy functioning. Sometimes doing (or not doing) the things depression motivates a person to do (or not do) are harmful and less than ideal. So, if attraction is part of the emotional center of a person (and I believe it is), that part of a person can be corrupted by sin just like any other part of a person. It's not exempt. To expound more generally, I know that there are certain things that should make me happy and fill me with joy, but sometimes I just don't feel the way I ought to feel. God doesn't want us to feel in ways that would lead us into conscious sin, and yet we observe that we sometimes do feel those ways. This absurdity of our minds and hearts not working properly is attributed to the sin that lives in us. Sin is (stated baldly and literally) "missing the mark," thereby not doing, feeling, or thinking the way that one should in a way that honors God and his commands. Just like how people with mental illnesses often have to check themselves and their own thoughts and feelings so that they re-evaluate and don't always act on them, likewise people that want to honor God have to check and re-evaluate their thoughts and feelings in the light of what God says in the Bible. As far as an actual Bible verse goes, there's 2 Corinthians 10:5 which talks about "taking every thought captive and making it obedient to Christ." That includes our own stray, random, and sometimes sinful thoughts. If thoughts (even unbidden, unintentional thoughts) can be disobedient to Christ, then they can sometimes be sinful, including thoughts or feelings of attraction. Butterfield's evidence is that it's sinful to feel anything (as well as entertain or agree with one's feelings) that would lead one to do something displeasing to God. Even the Old Testament warns against "hating your brother in your heart" (Leviticus 19:17-18), and that can include a broad range of emotions from a flash-in-the-pan of annoyance to outright premeditated malice. Matthew 5:21-26 is another such verse about emotions where Jesus warned against being angry toward a brother because that is sinful.

[@phinehas68]

I have difficulty taking Romans 7 out of the context of Romans 8, and especially the 1st verse. Romans 8:1 feels like where Paul is always heading with Romans 7. It's the good news that he can't wait to get to. A part of me wants to point out that it isn't the work of repentance that gets us to Romans 8, it's faith in Christ's blood and what it purchased for me. A part of me wants to point out that Christ took on all my sins, past, present, and future, and the cross feels like a big asterisk next to any conversation about my responsibility for my sin. A part of me wants to point out that, in talking about the sin living in me in chapter 7, Paul also says he is not the one doing the sinning. But another part of me wonders whether I am not giving enough emphasis to repentance and the "walking in the Spirit" that is one of the themes in chapter 8. Maybe the point is that I am supposed to live with the tension? I certainly don't feel like I've wrapped my stubby intellectual arms all the way around this issue and can interlock my fingers on the other side.

[@amalek2750]

You are not alone. Yes, the blood of Jesus. How weird and sad that all these heavy discussions exist with the Blood absent.

[@humblewatchman1673]

Repentance has been pushed aside in modern forums and made to be some kind of “work” that is antiquated, or even misinformed theology, yet there’s a real freedom that accompanies the repentance that the Word speaks about so frequently from beginning to end. The Doctrine of Repentance by Thomas Watson is a masterful book worth picking up.

[@markalbis1543]

agree becoz i believe on the two natures of the believer.

[@Anabee3]

I relate.

[@KM-zn3lx]

@humble...as a former Catholic I used to participate in confession to a priest but never felt I told all my sins, instead I would only divulge the most surface acceptable sins and do the penance, which never felt absolving. Then I told my husband what I was going through and he told me that was one of the main issues Martin Luther had. After the last horrible confession I came home, knelt and told the real high priest, Jesus my sins. I felt so much love and forgiveness. Repentance is a beautiful humbling healing because it repairs your relationship with the Lord!

[@LetTalesBeTold]

I’m on the fence with the “aesthetic attraction” bit- mostly just on where we can draw the line on what equates to sin (concupiscence.) I know that, yes, if I’m looking on someone too long, it is possible for that look to make me fall into lust (which for me is rarely a desire for anything physical, and is more like a continued desire to admire/be around someone, but that becomes idolatry of its own sort when unchecked.) So if I have those thoughts forming, I know I need to repent and look away. Now, as someone artistically minded, I have times where I can look at someone’s face and I want to admire them/study them in the same fashion that I want to admire a flower, a mountain vista, a favorite animal, etc. But, if I understand correctly what Rosaria is saying, because viewing people of beauty can occasionally correlate and is therefore the “embryo” of lust, I probably ought to be repentant and as a rule of thumb should not go out of my way to appreciate anyone’s beauty (in my case for drawing study or character reference), because even the prelude to what *could* become sin *is* itself sin. Am I misunderstanding? I’m not trying to kick back at the idea, I just wonder if even doing a double take at someone to say “wow, he/she is really lovely” is something I should be concerned about. I definitely have had to grow past some “growing pains” and I don’t expect I’ve learned everything yet, so I want to be cautious. IDK, I’d just be really appreciative if someone a little wiser than me could give their two cents, and maybe with something from Scripture to help clarify for me. 😅

[@Bioboy590]

God created us to love beauty, as image-bearers of Himself. We are His workmanship, and this includes everyone's bodies. Aesthetic attraction is what you could experience towards a sunset, a puppy, or another human being--it's simply an appreciation of beauty. The lust condemned in the Bible is not the same as sexual attraction. It's when someone's sexual temptation leads to them imagining and plotting how to have sex with someone who couldn't become their sexual partner. There's a reason Jesus said this lust was akin to adultery, not a more broad word for sexual sin like pornea. Keep enjoying human beauty.

[@LetTalesBeTold]

@@Bioboy590 thanks for the response! I appreciate having another perspective to mull over. God bless!

[@lauraminton7935]

God know your heart.

[@robertgraham5619]

Thank you! As a clinical social worker 95% of all therapy is non-constructive other than teaching that the "mental health" industry is making billions of dollars every year for little success. Some people have learned to stop giving credence to the authority of "mental health" practice/practitioners.

[@lastchance8142]

I can't believe there are some evangelicals who would say homosexual desire "is not sin". I think God made it clear through Jesus that the desires of the heart are transparent to Him, and often equated with the sin itself. If I desire to steal, should I say I'm clean because I don't steal? If I desire to have sex with a married woman, am I clean because I don't do it? Rather, isn't my desire something to repent of? Something I should war against and be sactified from?

[@amalek2750]

Is temptation sin? Jesus must have sinned because He was surely tempted by the Devil in the wilderness.. Unless you don't believe that and that it is a fairy tale. I believe it actually happened.

[@NicholaWallace]

​@@amalek2750the devil tempted Jesus to sin but Jesus didn't have a desire in his heart to sin. That is a big difference. You need to work out from where the temptation is coming. Satan or your own flesh. You can't blame all of your sin on Satan. People have been doing that since the fall of Adam and Eve.

[@kimngandong]

​​​@@amalek2750don't you understand that outside temptation doesn't mean that one is actually tempted? Someone can tempt you all they want but you can not be budged a bit. Don't blame outside influence for your own weakness and lust. That's why God gives everyone chances for repentance, even when we only sin in our thoughts. Yes, Satan tempted Jesus but did our Lord budge even a little? Did Jesus accept any of Satan's offers or feel tempted to accept them at all?

[@amalek2750]

@@kimngandong So, if there was no desire or temptation to sin, why in the world did He fast for 40 days and 40 nights?! There is NO purpose to that other than that it was necessary to forego the temptation. Seriously, if you can tell me another probable reason *why* He fasted, I will take that into account. And, no, "because the Father told Him to" is not specific insight. He was buffeting His body so that the spiritual world would come more clearly into focus and provide strength. If you have ever fasted, you would know the mind/body connection. Otherwise, it is a pointless exercise.

[@isoldam]

Intention is required for something to be a sin. If a man looks at a woman, not his wife, immediately feels attraction, but then turns his head and thoughts away, he has not sinned. If the same man continues to look and begins to think about how nice it would be to cheat with her, then he has sinned. Same-sex attraction works the same way. Merely having a disordered desire is not sinful.

[@kimberlyleal9820]

Praise God who is working in your life. Your topic on indwelling sin really helped me. And it's not just sexual sin.

[@wmperkins25]

Big 'fan' of Ms Butterfield ever since I first heard her testimony some years back. Been listening to her and so glad she changed her mind of the idea of 'conversion therapy' (do not like that term)- for me the idea of being same sex attracted was the result of a disordered affection, something that I knew to be sin, there was never a doubt in my mind that it was not what God intended for mankind. and if this were the case, He had a way of overcoming it. Christ died to heal our broken hearts, set the captive free from the bondage of our sin, which SSA is. Those of us in Christ are no longer slaves to the sin of SSA, but are now children of God. Why would anyone want to be identified with their past sin when Christ set us free from our former captor and transferred us into the kingdom of God?

[@RationalistMH]

So are you now straight? Or just closeted and pretending you’re not gay? You can drop the label, that won’t change reality

[@eschmigu]

Thank you VERY MUCH. As Rosaria says, the Truth may sting.... Still, let's go for it! God will reveal himself to those who seek Him sincerely!

[@PrayingAttentionWithDea]

I’ve followed Rosaria’s voice for years! She’s brilliant and precious!! A BLESSING to our generation! Sean, THANK YOU for all you do to bring fantastic information to our hearts! And, if I may suggest in kindness, please consider brightening your lighting. The moodiness is just…well… distracting. God bless the walk we are all on… trying to love wholeheartedly in a broken world from wobbly knees.

[@dereklee2590]

It's good to bring her back to understand:)

[@HJM0409]

1:12:07 I disagree with Rosaria on her idea of desire / temptation equating to sin. I think this comes from her presupposing that people are always guilty, which is from Calvinism and the Puritans. Christian’s when they repent of sin are “cleansed from ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS”. let’s “line it up with scripture”. The desire isn’t sin. When you consent to that desire by lusting/ or acting then you have consented to that desire, (conceived) then you sin. Do not place a yoke around people that makes them always guilty, never free from guilt. Sin requires repentance and bringing to the light, but temptation to sin does not sin. Romans 7 describes an unbeliever who is a slave to sin. Read 6 and 8. Romans 7 is not a believer who has been set free from the law of sin and death. James 1:14 14 But each one is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desires. 15 Then when desire conceives, it gives birth to sin, and when sin is full grown, it gives birth to death

[@HJM0409]

1:21:05 also That is wrong! Jesus was tempted in EVERY way we were. Lusting after is NOT the same as temptation and she keeps equating the two.

[@HJM0409]

1:23:31 thanks for pushing for clarity here- but don’t let Rosaria keep saying that attraction is equatable with lust. A human body has desires and those are NOT sin. Hunger and the desire for food is NOT the same as gluttony. Attraction is NOT the same as lust. “Sin is an essence” This is where she is wrong. She thinks you/ people carry around the essence of sin all the time. No. A Christian can be cleansed from all unrighteousness. The guilt she is laying on people will make it much harder for anyone to walk in the light and be free and cleansed and free from shame.

[@KRashad]

Nope. She’s right. There are good, right, ordered, natural desires and disordered desires. SSA is a disordered desire, thus a sin at its inception. It is an automatic lust because that’s precisely what lust is (epithumia; over/uber desire, a desire that is out of bounds, crosses the lines). Inherent in SSA is not just a benign appreciation of same-sex beauty (as Nate Collins has taught us)-but a malignant deception of same-sex compatibility. In those moments, I’m not just innocently noticing the attractiveness of an individual, my attraction is charged with a deceitful idea that this brother and I can have sexual compatibility, that the Scriptures outright condemn.

[@JasonDBennett]

​@@KRashad Homoeroticism starts as a disordered sexual template caused by trauma. Rosaria acknowledges that at the beginning of the video. Replacing heterosexuality with homosexuality is sinful, but simply experiencing a homosexual orientation is a result of the fall.

[@qwerty-so6ml]

@@JasonDBennett Heterosexuality is a sin. Angels left their first estate to fornicate. Only one Gospel: The Gospel of Reconciliation. Jesus Christ came into THEIR kingdom to reconcile fallen angels unto Himself. We are the fallen angels (ELOHIM) kept in DNA chains of darkness. If you do not confess being a fallen angel in Lucifer's kingdom, then you are an unbeliever. Unbeliever = those that claim to be made in the image of ELOHIM(gods). REPENT FALLEN ANGELS.

[@zibby321]

Paul said "Who will deliver me from this body of death?" He did not say "I repent for having a body."

[@adimetrius]

The problem with talking to an English major (just about anything) is metaphors. 'Indwelling sin', 'embryo of sin' - these are all metaphors. And they are not clear or self-evident. While such metaphors may help some people by giving them a language to talk about what's happening with them - it doesnt add value to the public discussion, exactly because it lack the power of specific definitions, that are characteristic of the scientific method. Thankfully, engineers and medical doctors are more specific and less metaphorical. So, if we Christians want to say smth meaningful to the public conversation, we've got to go to the roots and work on our definitions.

[@user-mm8ur9el9n]

Well said - she admits to not being a Bible scholar, and her handling of Romans 7, knowledge of the spectrum of Christian views on Romans 7, and throwing around of the term "church history" demonstrate that she is making declarations that outpace her expertise.

[@larrylafferty3836]

I’ve seen her on others podcasts she was pretty clear on this

[@torillcontos3011]

Lest we forget, Jesus loved speaking in parables! Sometimes it’s useful to think in metaphors/analogies to relate a concept to something we already have a solid picture of. I can understand what you’re saying, though. It’s a balance and you need to clearly define things when possible.

[@kingdomthings9887]

I understood what she was saying. Embryo is the term for the beginning of life, a new person being created and formed. So she is referring to the first stages of getting drawn into a particular sin. To explain it another way 👉 thoughts lead to actions. Be very discerning & careful what you listen too, look at, or talk about. To keep your mind free from sin & temptation, you need to keep the garbage out! Who you spend time with and where , is very important. Avoiding temptations is the key. As a Christian, I've been walking this out for almost 16 years and it works. THANK YOU JESUS !!! 😍 Sin is sin, heterosexual or homosexual. James 1:14-15 (NLT) Temptation comes from our own desires, which entice us and drag us away. These desires give birth to sinful actions. And when sin is allowed to grow, it gives birth to death.

[@midimusicforever]

Important topics! Rosaria is a treasure! And you too of course, Sean!

[@joeinterrante7873]

If the temptaion is sin even if not acted upon and Jesus was tempted by the devil, wouldn' t one have to conclude that jesus sinned and we know He did not. Or was the temptation of Jesus different than ours in that He felt no internal struggle? Does this question make sense ?

[@SeanMcDowell]

Great question. His temptation is external and concupiscence is internal to fallen humans.

[@corelife8442]

@@SeanMcDowell What do you mean His temptation is external?

[@PC-vg8vn]

@@SeanMcDowell From my understanding the NT simply refers to temptation to sin and therefore distinguishes between temptation and sin. Sin happens when you make the decision to act. The difference between us and Jesus is he never made that decision, not that he wasnt tempted as we are tempted.

[@Gnahtte]

​@@corelife8442Jesus Christ is the second Adam born without sin. He was born of a virgin woman and not of a man. Every temptation that he faced came from without rather from within him. Since he is fully man he was tempted as we are tempted, but since he is fully God he cannot be tempted of sin of himself.

[@KM-zn3lx]

So I have a real lust for food and sweets. But I've repented of food gluttony and lost weight. Yet just because I salivate and lust after the desserts on the banquet table, I'm sinning although I'm fighting the temptation to sin? I can't agree. There's always temptation to sin.

[@PC-vg8vn]

youre completely right. temptation to sin is not sin by definition.

[@jillh1543]

Why do you disagree? You used the word ‘lust’ to describe what you do at the banquet table - how is that not sin? It’s not irredeemable sin and you ARE fighting it, but that doesn’t mean it’s not sin. Sin in its embryonic stage, as Rosaria says. I would also suggest that homosexual attraction/lust is unique in that it is antithetical and contrary to God’s design, whereas wanting and enjoying food is from God, ultimately. Only you can know if your desire for food has become an idol, but wanting food in and of itself is a God-given design, whereas homosexual desire is not.

[@hephep7426]

Looking once at the dessert table and noticing how good thay look is the temptation and certianly not a sin if you look away and focus on other things. But if you linger at looking and thinking and long for a dessert even though you don't take it that is the sin of lust. Just like Jesus said if you look at a woman to just after her you have committed adultery in your heart. That is the difference. In the case of Ssa, a gay Christian is declaring that they are engaging in the lust sin. Do you claim to be a gluttonous Christian but celibate? That would indicate you engage in lusting/sin at the desert table even though you don't take a desert.

[@PC-vg8vn]

@@hephep7426 'In the case of Ssa, a gay Christian is declaring that they are engaging in the lust sin.' no theyre not. Theyre saying theyre attracted to people of the same sex rather than of the opposite sex. 'Gay' simply describes one's sexuality.

[@heartofalegend]

YES, and the reason there's always temptation to sin is because of our indwelling sin. I would argue that, biblically, Rosaria is on solid ground for agreeing with Augustine and the reformers on this point. Indwelling sin is always at work in us, causing our love for the Lord to fall short of what it should be. That in and of itself is sin. This is why repentance and confession should be like breathing for the believer. It begins the moment we wake and doesn't end till the moment we go to sleep. This comes down to a fundamental understanding of what total depravity is all about.

[@AJTramberg]

I dont think the Bible splits the atom between repenting of original sin vs fleeing temptation. Fleeing is the fruit of repentance. Two sides of the same coin. We should recognize and reject sin in thought or deed. However if there was no sexual attraction of any kind before marriage, nobody would ever marry, and nobody would be here!! I reject the notion that God uses sin for us to be fruitful and multiply. Attraction and lust are not the same thing. Paul instructs people to marry that require a non sinful outlet for sexual desire. Has anyone read Song of Solomon?

[@JasonDBennett]

Some of us don't believe we're guilty of original sin; we believe we're guilty of our own sins. Original sin caused us to be born with a sin nature. Then Jesus saved us from it. Calvinistic theology puts an extra burden on those already weighed down by same-sex attractions.

[@natorousab]

That's an interesting point about desire between a couple that wishes to marry, since it is instrumental in God's design. Although I might consider such a desire to be in a different category from desires that lead to destruction.

[@wink4jesse]

1:19:54 "I can talk privately about that footnote, because you need to know that there's public repentance." If these footnoted people/groups have changed and had "public repentance", why not say who they are publicly??

[@bean8606]

Sean - Thank you for your ongoing work of joining grace and truth together through your podcast. Rosaria - Thank you for being the prophetess we never wanted but so desperately need at a time like this. See you both in glory. Peace. John 15:13

[@qwerty-so6ml]

Only one Gospel: The Gospel of Reconciliation. Jesus Christ came into THEIR kingdom to reconcile fallen angels unto Himself. We are the fallen angels (ELOHIM) kept in DNA chains of darkness. If you do not confess being a fallen angel in Lucifer's kingdom, then you are an unbeliever. Unbeliever = those that claim to be made in the image of ELOHIM(gods). REPENT FALLEN ANGELS.

[@m.gattus-reinhart845]

@@qwerty-so6ml Keep your mixed up understanding of the Book of Enoch to yourself.

[@qwerty-so6ml]

@@m.gattus-reinhart845 In Genesis 3:5, the serpent said Ye shall be AS gods. In John 10:34, Jesus said Ye ARE gods. Stop believing your father, the devil.

[@m.gattus-reinhart845]

@@qwerty-so6ml I'm an atheist. I really don't care.

[@qwerty-so6ml]

@@m.gattus-reinhart845 If you really don't care, why leave the original comment? Your locust awaits.

[@Dr.Mike.Rev.Napier]

When you give sin an inch in your life it will take a mile. When you give into a lil sin it will take over your whole life. We can not compromise with sin it doesn’t work.

[@claudiaperfetti7694]

I agree so completely!!! Kill desire when it's small!!! PRAISE GOD FOR THIS TEACHING! I USED TO THINK DESIRE WAS NOT SIN AND JUST HOVERED OVER IT!!!! WE NEED THIS TEACHING!!!!!❤❤❤

[@cathy7382]

What about opposite sex lust? I think that's alot more pervasive than gay attractions

[@amalek2750]

Yes. And it is really not discussed that often, considering how rampant it is. When I was in my teens and 20's, there was still talk of wanting to save oneself for marriage. Now Christians live together before marriage, and no one blinks an eye. Rosario *could* be addressing that as more of an emphasis. But we are so afraid of people leaving the church because they want to continue to shack up. I believe that's the answer. It's easier to focus on same sex attracted people and keep the pews full by not offending the heterosexuals living together. The Church may counsel teens, but adults are too risky to confront. They might leave. Many years ago, I heard K.C. Price say to a packed auditorium (church service): "Ladies, if you are not married, you need to keep your panties on ". Exact words. You could have heard a pin drop Respect for his boldness.

[@RoseyPosey545]

👏👏👏

[@paulajames6149]

They spoke of this a couple times. One specific time was the ending referring to whether Jesus would have an attraction to a man or a woman. The desire for the same sex is disordered and so it is different.

[@captainmartin1219]

​@@amalek2750 Christians should be talking about all sin. However I do think the LGBTQ thing is unique. Most people would not argue the other things are a sin,but the sexual sins get heavy resistance by people and the government.

[@amalek2750]

@@captainmartin1219 I don't know who you mean as to "most people would not argue heterosexual fornication is not sin.." By the acceptance of premarital sex and living together as very common among Christians, I would say that the silence is deafening. Reread my post if you want to understand my point. Or don't🙂 I personally don't see it as unique. At least those engaging in heterosexual fornication can always say, "Well, we're getting married anyway" as they continue to shack up.

[@daodejing81]

People don't struggle with what is natural, they struggle with dealing with adversity from the world, from society. Transcend the illusion of adversity, and you will be at peace. Being you is always effortless. The rose requires no effort to be a rose.

[@thearamsay9578]

I have a problem with reformed theology in general. The whole Presbyterian Calvinist reformed theology, plus the whole Roman Catholic guilt and so on, I could never get behind that. I don’t care what Augustine said, or what John Calvin said. And by the way, I didn’t ask to be born a sinner. no one did. The reason I chose Christ rather than Buddha or Hare Krishna was because he offers a way out of what I didn’t want to be in in the first place. I sure shoot didn’t ask to be blind and end up in a wheelchair and in my bed 24 seven just trying to figure out how I can pass the time. I sure shoot and didn’t sign up for that. I chose Christ on the 46:58 his care for me and his ability to put my sin in the mission and not over burden me with it. And this is why I don’t like reformed theology. There’s so much emphasis on sin and how are we responsible for original sin? How are we responsible for what we’re born as?

[@Bioboy590]

Rosaria doesn't believe Jesus was fully human. She only believes He was fully God with human appearance (even if she doesn't say this explicitly). This false gospel is the source of her confusion. In her mind, Jesus couldn't be tempted in every manner as we are, because Jesus is not as we are and lacks the human desires that can be exploited by temptation. This view is heretical and cheapens the perfect life of Christ as well as His humanity. I wish people would stop platforming this false gospel.

[@leahparker9033]

What's your source for this?

[@Bioboy590]

​​@@leahparker9033 1:23:15 She affirms that Jesus' unique calling means He was incapable of even being sexually attracted to women (or men). This is a heretical Christology that undermines the humanity of Christ. Jesus was both God and human equally per the Athanasian Creed. Jesus had his own human, fleshly will, but He perfectly submitted that will to the will of the Father as our perfect example (Jn 5:30, Jn 6:38, Lk 22:42). Hebrews 4:15 is clear Jesus was tempted in EVERY manner as we are, yet without sin. Rosaria doesn't believe "every" means "every." She thinks that Jesus only faced a few "extreme" external temptations, not that He was tempted in every respect as we are.

[@leahparker9033]

@@Bioboy590 Oh dear. That's too bad.

[@scottmccoy127]

@@Bioboy590 I agree that Hebrews 4:15 is the essential verse in this conversation. It seems to be clear, as you say, that the manner in which we experience temptation is the same exact manner that Jesus experienced temptation, and yet He never sinned, while we do. This would mean that temptation, while a result of the fall and something to be fought against, is not a sin we must repent of.

[@heartofalegend]

@@Bioboy590 I would respectfully suggest that many of us need to do a good solid study on the humanity of Christ and what temptations were even feasible for Him to experience, since He had no fallen nature. There are crackpots out there that take the verse in Hebrews to mean that Jesus experienced every single solitary temptation that collective humanity has experienced, no matter how extreme. In other words, He was tempted with incest, homosexuality, bestiality, transgenderism, pedophilia and the like. That is insane. There was a limit and a scope to what was even tempting to the perfect son of God, even in His humanity, which was also perfect and not fallen. We need to get a firmer grasp on this area of theology.

[@JasonDBennett]

"Consider this: The moment we start to confuse temptation with sin is the moment that we start to undermine Christ’s work to set us free from sin. Because Jesus resisted temptation, He was able to say no to sin, and instead, to be a sin offering for us, without sinning. But if temptation is somehow, really sin in disguise underneath, then Jesus would have never been able to have victory over sin, because he would have been sinning, when he was tempted. We would still be doomed and lost in our sin." From Is the Temptation to Sin, Itself, Sin? by Clarke Morledge.

[@robbiefest]

nicely said

[@dubyag4124]

My goodness, Rosaria is a gift from God right now. This was a beautiful conversation, and the summary is so freeing: God was right! Which is the heart of repentance. So many great takeaways: 1. Jesus was tempted "in all ways" only means he was tempted EXTERNALLY by Satan with the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life and Jesus resisted them all using Scripture. Jesus had no internal sinful desire, which we all have, and the subject of this whole convo. 2. Absolutely fascinating the tie-into Armenianism. I don't mean to be uncharitable, but I feel "free will" is an idol for many. And so it is awesome to see Sean wrestle with this. This whole conversation is about the heart, isn't it, and we cannot change our heart. We throw ourselves on God's mercy and ask Him to give us a new heart, desires and all. But only He can do it. But that is why this convo is hard for Armenians--they are so hung up on they didn't "ask" for the sinful desire so they are not accountable for them? EEP, Jesus made it clear sinful desire is the same as the act. Lust = adultery = idolatry.

[@dc-hq1kg]

In Romans 1:26, Paul calls them “dishonorable passions” which indicates that the desires itself are sinful, not just the actual physical acts.

[@qwerty-so6ml]

Heterosexuality is a sin. Angels left their first estate to fornicate. Only one Gospel: The Gospel of Reconciliation. Jesus Christ came into THEIR kingdom to reconcile fallen angels unto Himself. We are the fallen angels (ELOHIM) kept in DNA chains of darkness. If you do not confess being a fallen angel in Lucifer's kingdom, then you are an unbeliever. Unbeliever = those that claim to be made in the image of ELOHIM(gods). REPENT FALLEN ANGELS.

[@claudiaperfetti7694]

Don't understand 1:26 . What are we hearing?

[@anng.4542]

Rosaria might not like me to say it, but she is discussing what Catholics call "original sin" in a very engaging way. (Beginning at 17:18)

[@RationalistMH]

The Catholic Church does not teach that same sex attraction is itself sinful, though.

[@aerogers4117]

So, her viewpoint is, if you are a Christian, and despite repentance and pleading prayer you are still experiencing same sex attraction (and have not developed opposite sex attraction), you should remain celibate and keep quite about it.

[@Bioboy590]

She believes you are in sin until you no longer experience any same sex desire. She doesn't understand that temptation requires an underlying desire. Jesus couldn't have been tempted to turn a rock into bread if He didn't have a desire for bread. She doesn't understand this relationship, which is clearly explained in James 1:14-15.

[@heartofalegend]

On what planet do you come up with that conclusion, after hearing what she said? I don't think you actually believe your own words, unless you are stupid. Rather, you are willfully choosing to view her words erroneously because it serves you in some way to do so. Don't do that.

[@heartofalegend]

@@Bioboy590 You're not following. The issue is indwelling sin, which comes from our being in Adam. Each day, our desires are askew from what they should be, simply because of the Fall. This is why, daily, we need to be in an attitude of repentance and mortification of the flesh. Doing so will keep ungodly desires from growing into sinful practice.

[@Bioboy590]

@@heartofalegend I basically agree with that, but she is saying the concupiscence (aka innate draw towards sin) is itself a baby sin. This is wrong, but she just claims it's a universally agreed historical church position, which is also untrue.

[@heartofalegend]

@@Bioboy590 She is pointing to Romans 7 as an example of this. She's not just conjuring up this concept out of thin air, as one woman on an island, alone with her unbiblical notions. There's a REASON the reformed confessions affirm this. It is the ESSENCE of total depravity. There's nothing good that resides in us. We are not just to be in repentance for sinS we commit, but we are to be in daily repentance of SIN that dwells in us, causing us to not love God as we ought nor think of others as we ought. Indwelling sin is what causes us to have to actively kill our daily bent toward pride and selfishness and other disordered desires such as lust and same sex attraction. The latter does not get a pass. That's her point. I think it would be worthwhile for you to look over the materials she referred to. This for too long as been a neglected area of theology and the consequences of it are being fully manifested. We have to understand this.

[@tiffanydaniel8996]

Yes! Can’t wait for this! Love Rosaria Butterfield and recently finished The Gospel Comes with a House Key. Listen to Ruslan too. So I’ve seen the back and forth between the Side B and Side X and Y folk. I agree most with Rosaria’s perspective. Hopefully in this interview she lays it all down in a clear and graceful manner, because I would like to see siblings in Christ come to an agreement on this issue, even if their soteriological perspectives differ from or even oppose each other.

[@elijahinfante6693]

Did Rosaria write a book about this specific topic? I would like to dive deep into more clearly

[@markb3786]

😂😂😂😂😂😂😂There is ALWAYS a book!

[@gummylens5465]

@elijahinfante6693 Her most recent book is really good (Five Lies).

[@sunshinepadawan]

Huge respect ❤

[@danielcartwright8868]

I have to disagree with her labelling SSA (or any kind of attraction) as 'indwelling sin' and also confusing sexual attraction in general with coveting. A straight man may be attracted to women other than his wife. It is a biological desire made for the continuation of humanity. It doesn't mean he is coveting them. My understanding of coveting (which could be wrong) is that you set your desires on having something (or someone) that you cannot lawfully have. It's not simply, 'that's a nice car. I'd like one like that if I could afford it.' It's more like 'I want *his/her* car, I need to have it, regardless of if he/she wants to sell it to me.' You're fixated on having that specific person/thing, not simply passively desiring it, though I'm aware that rabbis have differed on definitions of covet.

[@markdiblasi3061]

If I do what I will not to do it is no longer I who do it but sin that lives in me Rom7:20

[@princejoeking7092]

This is a wake up call.

[@mawrawmiller561]

Renewing your mind moment by moment is walking with Jesus ❤️

[@phinehas68]

Rosaria mentions the "first step in repentance" at one point. Where can I read about the steps of repentance in more depth?

[@lastchance8142]

Good question. Don't know if that shows up biblically in any list, so to speak. From experience, the first step is always agreeing with God that something is indeed sin without excuses. The next step is committing yourself to "turn around", and leave it behind. Probably the third step is asking for God's mercy! Finally, if possible, restoring anyone you hurt with your sin, or at least apologizing. Depending on the sin, it can be a hard road. Jesus didn't mince words. He said "cut it off", and "pluck it out". "Take up your cross and follow me". The cross always means suffering and death. Like any sin, it would have been better if we never did it.

[@genotriana3882]

Step 1: Admit your need to be healed and that you are incapable of healing your brokenness apart from God. Step 2: Believe that God is in the business of healing people through His Son’s work on the cross. Step 3: Trust in His forgiveness and ability to heal you. There are 9 more steps included Christian recovery curriculums. Agreeing with God is one of them. Sex addiction, taking an identity in something other than God, and idolatry of romantic relationships aren’t much different than addictions to drugs and alcohol. We are all doing what Adam was doing in the garden.

[@paulajames6149]

“For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation without regret, whereas worldly grief produces death. For see what earnestness this godly grief has produced in you, but also what eagerness to clear yourselves, what indignation, what fear, what longing, what zeal, what punishment! At every point you have proved yourselves innocent in the matter.” ‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭7‬:‭10‬-‭11‬ ‭ESV‬‬

[@azwarriorm2617]

Great great. Thank you for this interview

[@biblicalworldview1]

I agree almost 100% with Rosaria. I do think she uses the term heresy way too broadly and easily and does not make a good distinction between that and false teaching. When we think of false teachers they aren't ones that make mistakes of where a scripture passages in the Bible. I would certainly say side a, and affirming homosexuality is heresy. I would say side b, or celibate theology, would fall in the false teaching category. Second, I think she realized to heavily on church councils rather than the scriptures themselves. Church counsels are not our absolute and so we need to refer to the Bible. When she refers to Romans 7, I love that passage. But Paul is specifically talking about things that he is doing, and that is not he but sin living in him. He is doing the thing he hates, not just innate desire or attraction. And my final pushback is when Sean brought up Jesus and asked if Jesus could have had an attraction to women, she replied that Jesus could not lust. Of course. Lust is a sin. The question Sean asked and I think she avoided, is is the underlying attraction itself sinful. Those are small pushbacks on some things I think that could have been more clear. Just to be more clear, here is he is a belief that puts you outside of Christendom. It is rejecting core tenets of the Christian faith. Armenian and reformed theology, while being opposite sides of the spectrum, certainly one is right and one is wrong or they are both wrong about certain things, but we wouldn't say belief in one or the other is heresy, hopefully lol

[@KM-zn3lx]

Agree. I found that irritating and overly legalistic. Sometimes ppl go from one extreme to the other, i.e. liberalism to legalism.

[@KM-zn3lx]

I like her, but you can tell she interrupts Sean as if he's overly simplistic and he's actually has a doctorate degree! She's always ready to respond too quickly when he's trying to flesh out his point. It's sortof dismissive like she's in a lecture hall as the professor who doesn't like a point a student is making!

[@fboettcher]

Except false teachings are heresy. But by the actual definition of heresy some true teachings can be heresy. So in the end we argue semantics.

[@kellyschroeder7437]

Praise the Lord !!! ✝️🙌🏻. Thank you for this conversation and encouragement. Please pray for me. Know God Almighty knows 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻✝️🙌🏻✝️🙌🏻✝️🙌🏻💞💙

[@GypsyGirl317]

God bless you with His Love, strength, comfort, peace and a fresh anointing of the Holy Spirit power. Yes, He knows, and He's got you in every aspect of your life. 😊🌿🙆🏻‍♀️❤🙏🏽

[@kingdomthings9887]

Praying for you Kelly!

[@kellyschroeder7437]

Thank you all 💞💙🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻✝️🙌🏻✝️🙌🏻✝️🙌🏻

[@user-mm8ur9el9n]

Major props to Sean for pressing in on the definition of heresy, which Rosaria did not answer well at all. If the issue hinges on different readings of Romans 7, we are not dealing with heresy, because most with any theological training know how disputed the interpretation of this passage is. Views on Romans 7 almost never impinge on creedal, orthodox doctrinal issues (i.e., heresy). To make these kinds of claims, she needs to tell us plainly what church councils she is talking about (someone let me know if I missed the mention of actual councils). We need robust word studies on epithumia, exegesis of James 1:14-15, and then to augment those with well-documented references to the wisdom of church history.

[@DrScottBennion]

I think she has some really good points however I find it interesting that she talks about going to people privately, but called out Preston Sprinkle and others publicly.

[@Naomi_OB]

Preston Sprinkle has a public ministry, therefore correction can be public. One of the most misunderstood verses out there --- especially these days. However, Sean and Preston are friends- i think( and hope), she may have been subtlety encouraging Sean to approach Preston (and hopefully CRU too, among others...) to repent.

[@sovereigngodlisaloves9525]

I've never known her to shrink from naming names/calling people out.

[@ClaritySinger]

Public figures who are misleading the church need to be corrected publicly. Paul called out Peter publicly, not because he didn't like Peter, not because Peter was not a Christian, but because his wrong actions were having a negative impact.

[@e.delano7285]

Public vs private... She calls for private conversations amongst private individuals, and her public calling out is people who speak out in public.

[@benjaminsciberras111]

Can we get some more information on the Church Councils that referred to conscupiscence as heresy (sorry if I missed this)?

[@uncleTK71]

I love Rosario, I love her story, I love her love of God and His word. She makes feel uncomfortable, steps on my toes and challenges me. After listening to her the first time with Sean I have listened to her on several other occasions. My initial thought was I don’t (didn’t) hold to the first point that same sex attraction is a sin but I would say that we need to “fight it”, not let it grow into something bigger. As I was listening this morning I was convicted that either both of those things have to be true (it’s a sin and needs to be fought) or neither of them are true. It’s inconsistent to think it’s not a sin but needs to be fought. Since I would be unwavering that same sex attraction has to be “fought” I need to be consistent that it is a sin. My last point or question would be on Celibacy. I get the impression that Rosario would neither encourage or celebrate celibacy. Is it OK to encourage and even celebrate celibacy if it is presented as the first step and not the final step?

[@robertgraham5619]

I think it is quite clear the line between aesthetic and sexual attraction is whether or not your hormones are involved, directly related to whether your penis is literally aroused and/or your vagina is literally aroused. As a man who has struggled greatly with homosexual attraction, I am greatly aroused aesthetically for certain men I am not aroused by sexually. The distinction is quite clear for me. Just as every person heterosexual or homosexual is not aroused by all women or all men. We all have taste whether we like it or not. However, acting on our taste takes wisdom. Just because we love chocolate doesn't mean we should eat it.

[@GeraldineAndrade-x5e]

my past sins , todays' sins and my future sins HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN BY THE BLOOD OF JESUS CHRIST!!!To say this is not so is to say the sacrifice of Jesus was not enough. To continue to beat myself up over things I can't undo is playing right into the devil's hand. Why will the church not allow Jesus save with no buts attached?

[@selenasch3957]

Rosaria is a masterclass on this topic - she's a leading authority despite her humility that she's does not have a ministry. Please have her as a regular guest so we can combat this lie in our churches.

[@machellovelivelife658]

I cant see her the same way. She takes shots at Preston Sprinkle yet he's said he's tried to speak with both her and Alisa Childers, offline or online, their choice, and they've declined. That too me is unchristian and shady. It's hard to see her and Alisa the same way. Poor taste.

[@wnorwood1]

It's interesting to me that she would agree to be on Sean's channel when he's had Preston Sprinkle on a few times.

[@KM-zn3lx]

There's alot wrong with Preston Sprinkle. A person doesn't need to engage every person they disagree with. Some people, like Preston, Andy Stanley, Russell Moore, etc. will not change their minds because that's the audience they get money from!

[@davidjay_]

@@KM-zn3lx The cottage industry works both ways. You don't honestly think the reformed community is above having their own share of blind spots and idolatry. Ironic that she mentions the recently reported (and very sad) downfall of pastors -- many of whom, incidentally, are from the reformed community. That tells you that perfect articulation and understanding of doctrine doesn't change behavior let alone lead one to abundant life.

[@heartofalegend]

@@davidjay_ I may just not be thinking clearly at the moment, but did you say that many of the recently fallen pastors are reformed? I honestly don't know of any, other than Matt Chandler, who does not actually seem to be "fallen" per se, based on what I understand about his situation.

[@heartofalegend]

@@wnorwood1 Of course she would. She made it clear that she cares about Sean as a brother, and always welcomes the opportunity to have open dialogue on this subject. She knows her voice is one that is vital on this channel, to counteract the erroneous approach to this subject that is too often platformed. Thank the Lord for Sean's willingness to give her just as much consideration as he does with other people, with whom he disagrees. I'm grateful that he doesn't play favorites. Whatever I may think of the zany hijinks that too often play out on his show, I respect Sean for showing just as much respect for Rosaria as he does for someone like Preston Sprinkle.

[@csk4j]

To "free" people to be gay is to "limit" others to be able to live the family life ..we increased confusion, increased the behavior, reduced the spouse pool...it not a zero victim kind action..look at the confusion and suffering we've unleashed with vaguery

[@Warhol-jb9zx]

Just for everyone to know, Rosaria described herself as a policial lesbian and that´s not the same thing as being a gay.

[@PC-vg8vn]

I understood her to be bisexual, rather than gay. If that is the case, whilst she can certainly experience same-sex attraction it is not quite the same as being gay when you only experience same-sex attraction and not at all to the opposite sex.

[@Warhol-jb9zx]

@@PC-vg8vn In her recent book "Five lies our our anti-christian age" she writes: I never did call my lesbianism my sexual orientation..I believe it was an informed choice and a part of normal sexual fluidity".

[@PC-vg8vn]

@@Warhol-jb9zx I dont even know what she means by 'an informed choice'. She's pandering to the extreme right who view simply having a gay sexual orientation as sinful, rather than behaviour. This explains why she even condemns the likes of Preston Sprinkle who actually agrees with her that same-sex sexual behaviour is sinful.

[@Warhol-jb9zx]

@@PC-vg8vn who knows what she talks about but she was never gay apparantley and now she is promoting full blown westboro baptist church retoric...Let's pray for her!

[@Warhol-jb9zx]

@@PC-vg8vn Yes it's very sad to see ...a complete change of heart really

[@gregston25242363]

Thank you for this content and discussion

[@rebeccaread7260]

So excited for this conversation! I loved both of your segments at the Kingdom Come Conference in FL and was hoping you would get together for a discussion on this at some point since you, Sean, have discussed the side B position in some of your videos. So grateful for both of you and your faithfulness to the Word!

[@SeanMcDowell]

Awesome, let us know what you think!

[@tiffanydaniel8996]

Wow! Had no idea it happened! I used to teach at Westminster. I would’ve loved to gone 😭

[@davesgoldenduck6066]

Is the only indwelling sin sex?

[@PeaceinJESUS24]

I would think any sin could be an indwelling sin 🤔

[@danyiadawson6724]

Is this conversation over same sex attraction being a sin? Or the way same sex attracted Christian’s label themselves after they come to Jesus? I’m confused Trying to figure out the context It seems that most evangelical churches don’t divide on IF its a sin but what they do in response to it How they label themselves or not label themselves Logically looking at it, it seems that IF it’s a sin and God calls us to walk away from sin and forgives us We are not labeled that SIN anymore For an example, other sins like addiction, gossip, etc you wouldn’t greet people as Hi, I am an ex gossiper Although I may have a weakness in that area I just look at it like I need accountability and to surrender that weakness daily This convo seemed so complicated 🤣🤣 Just wish there was more clearer language around this topic

[@michaelchoruss7544]

The reason why it’s confusing is because this is a complicated issue that ignorant people like Sean try to deduce to simplicity. No, being sexually attracted to another person is absolutely not comparable to being attracted to drugs and alcohol. There’s a HUGE reason why science and psychology are often left out of these conversations… because they work against all their arguments

[@dcb774]

The young people only think of the here and now, sin brings consequences years later-- the young and inexperienced need to be warned.

[@Naomi_OB]

Love this conversation! And love what appears to be a possible shift/strengthening of where Sean falls on these issues surrounding SSA. He seems to be coming around to understand and maybe even accept the Biblical position of many people like Rosaria and Christopher Yuan, two Godly people we should highly respect and consider in this conversation. Praying Sean may be walking away from teaching and positions put forward by those like Prestom Sprinkle, Revoice etc. I pray it is so -- and pray he may be able to affect change in para church ministry CRU (even if his dad is no longer in charge) which has totally given way to the spirit of the age & unbiblical position on SSA which has recently come to light. These parachurch positions must publically and loudly correct their current unbiblical position, and if they do we should support them for their courage (if it ever does happen).

[@freethinker1056]

I’ve passed this on to many who are confused because even though Romans tells you what God thinks about it, the churches seem to be supporting it by not preaching sin, repentance, and forgiveness. Thank you.

[@paulgleason7191]

Great and insightful conversation

[@Shimanoultegra106]

Great conversation about in dwelling sin and repentance even if one doesn’t struggle with same sex attraction. Would love for you to include the references mentioned on the description if possible…

[@dannycampisi1919]

Hi Sean. Would you consider having Preston Sprinkle on as well so we can understand his opinion on the differences?

[@paulstone8900]

Because the central issue being discussed here is SO complex and layered, it is unfair to use the label "heresy" for those who have a different viewpoint on this issue. Rosaria's interpretation of Romans 7 is not error free and without question. Also the Church Councils do not speak as clearly to this issue as she pretends. They made larger theological statements to help clarify bigger center circle issues. This type conversation was not even in their framework. Rosaria has a sincere heart and thinks deeply on this issue. She is a great resource. But her continual misrepresentation of people like Preston Sprinkle and her refusal to engage in the conversation with those she has clearly misrepresented speaks to her unwillingness to handle this in a biblical manner and talk to other sincere scholars who BIBLICALLY disagree with her. PS - concupiscence is not a term found in the Scripture ... so there's that baseline contradiction in her "just read the Bible" approach.

[@natorousab]

I was interested by the idea of covetousness as a sin in this discussion. It seems like it shouldn't be a sin, since I don't actively choose to covet my neighbor's goods- I just discover that I already do. Yet, I'm still responsible for it, because it comes from my heart, even if it is unbidden. Philosophically, this seems to suggest that my identity is not only in my consciousness self but also my unconscious self, even if they are not always aligned.

[@hannahhannah5742]

Jesus was tempted in the desert, if temptations are sins then you would have to say Jesus sinned which he didnt. I would be interested in hearing her answer to this

[@angieross5675]

Wow great conversation thank you

[@angelacarroccia5123]

1 John 3:15. Whoever hates his brother is a murderer. Therefore sin is a deep disposition of the heart. Too me that says whether or not you act on the feeling or desire.

[@JasonDBennett]

Anger is a great comparison. Murderous rage is a choice someone makes instead of being angry without sinning. Lust is the same way. Not all erotic feelings are sexual. If a man ignores the warning signs along the way and goes down the slippery slope to lust, he's not being wise. If he engages lust, he is sinning.

[@RaptureReadyPam]

I haven’t watched this yet, but idk how you can support Sprinkles unless you just haven’t researched what he actually says (not what he claims) in his conferences and videos. Im glad you’re having Rosaria regardless.

[@Jeanettesboxingchannel]

@1:19:22 there is a good reason for that, Rosalia: you are a Christian, so I doubt you will, but in many cases, in a LOT of cases, a transgender kid comes out to their parents and the PARENTS are the ones who give them "the shiner". Its hard to comprehend, but has happened many times.

[@markdiblasi3061]

He was tempted in all points like us without sin. All points even sexual temptation or he wasn’t a man.

[@whomever21]

Paul says in Rom 1 that homosexuals receive the penalty that is due. That penalty was given by God in Leviticus. When will Rosaria find the courage to call for God's justice against SSA?

[@qwerty-so6ml]

Matthew 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. If you judge by the law, YOU WILL BE JUDGED BY THE LAW.

[@RationalistMH]

So you want to kill gay people? And you think you’re a ‘moral’ and ‘godly’ person, right? What a disgusting human being. Truly evil.

[@whomever21]

@@qwerty-so6ml I would say we should agree to disagree but Rosaria is right: This is an issue we must divide over, like the Methodists. No one can be called a Christian who does not condemn the wicked. I stand with Rosaria the Righteous! 🤣

[@qwerty-so6ml]

@@whomever21 Heterosexuality is a sin. Angels left their first estate to fornicate. Only one Gospel: The Gospel of Reconciliation. Jesus Christ came into THEIR kingdom to reconcile fallen angels unto Himself. We are the fallen angels (ELOHIM) kept in DNA chains of darkness. If you do not confess being a fallen angel in Lucifer's kingdom, then you are an unbeliever. Unbeliever = those that claim to be made in the image of ELOHIM(gods). REPENT FALLEN ANGELS.

[@johntumpkin3924]

A well-defined approach to pursuing and maintaining the heterosexual lifestyle, based on biblical ethics and praxis, particularly in the prevailing context of aggressive projections of sexual preferences and orientations.

[@TedMyrrh]

Sexual attractions are the result of mystery . without facing your fear and shame blocking same sex emotional intimacy and healthy heterosexual role models and its affirmation, validation, and usefulness of you. You will go on struggling. The problem with most Christians is we pass off the job of loving people and ignore all the one another commands. Bible verses won't change same sex attraction they will inform it but not transformation is when..." I pray that you being rooted and established in love would have power together with all the saints. To know the love that surpasses knowledge. Rootedness in love. Love has a heterosexual model in mother and father. If your roles were disrupted you need new ones. Your head needs the Bible to understand, your heart needs strengthened by grace. When we get knew experiences to replace the lying experiences, our body memory, emotions,goals, patterns, lifestyle will start to match what we want and believe with our head.

[@danielcartwright8868]

What she's saying doesn't make sense. What does same-sex attracted person who has chosen to live celibate have to repent of? How can you repent of a passive desire anyway? Can a poor person who can only afford 1 meal a day repent of a desire to have a full stomach? No! But the moment they start thinking, 'maybe I should steal some food', then they have something to repent of. Desires are not sins. Intentions and attitudes can be sins, but not passive desires. I don't really care about the appeal to Augustin. He introduced determinism into the church when prior church fathers all affirmed free will. He also made a straw man of Pelagius in order to push his infant baptism agenda (and taught damnation of unbaptized infants - a result of his made-up doctrine of original sin).

[@SeanMcDowell]

Hi Daniel, I think she would make a distinction between same-sex desires, which are themselves unable to be carried out a way that align with God‘s design, and the desire for a full stomach, which is good.

[@danielcartwright8868]

​@SeanMcDowell Hi Sean, first, thanks for taking the time to personally reply. Second, my language was a bit rude, so I edited my comment. But third, I still don't see how one can 'repent' of a passive desire. 'Repent' means to make a turn around - a change of directiom, but if you've already resolved not to act on those desires, what more is there to do? Slap yourself on the wrist when you feel those feelings? Maybe a better analogy would be someone who is full and then smells delicious food and their mouth waters. For them to eat would be to engage in gluttony (thus could not be carried out in a Godly manner), but how can you repent of your mouth watering?

[@RationalistMH]

@@SeanMcDowelloh so i see you’re a full blown fundamentalist now. Another Christian pretending to be ‘loving’ to gay people whilst promoting ideologies that lead to immense suffering. What a disappointment.